Ideology gap increase between young men and women in various countries.
Ideology gap increase between young men and women in various countries.
More dataisdepressing than dataisbeautiful
Ideology gap increase between young men and women in various countries.
More dataisdepressing than dataisbeautiful
A few folks have mentioned that these charts
A lot of young men in the US are reporting themselves as "not a Democrat or Republican", and that's causing a lot of this proportional shift. I would bet that characterizes a lot of folks on this site who are not conservative.
https://www.vox.com/politics/2024/3/13/24098780/politics-gender-divide-generation-z-youth-men-women
https://www.allendowney.com/blog/2024/01/28/is-the-ideology-gap-growing/
Exactly. I would be almost as upset with being classified as a liberal or a Democrat as I would be a conservative.
At the same time I know many people (my brother included) that claim to be "independent" because they think that the trump camp is somehow outside the conservative camp, and therefore respond "independent" on polls. Because they think "I'm not democrat or conservative, I just want to drain the swamp" and then support trump, who is literally a swamp.
On the flip side, in Europe extreme right parties are mostly being propped up by young men, while in other age groups men and women vote relatively similarly, which supports this finding.
And no way the UK is left leaning like that.
The opposite to conservative is progressive, not liberal
Especially in Europe where liberal is more typically used for economically liberal.
Which tend to be conservative socially.
The opposite is Socialism, not progressivism.
People like you are why we cannot discuss political ideas without being put into a bucket and given some horrific label. Being conservative doesnt make u sexist some conservative views are sexist same as some progressive view are sexist. Stop spouting hate like politics is a football team and practice critical thinking where you can take ideas from all perspectives.
As women gain independence, frightened men turn to patriarchal solutions. Hence a turd like JD Vance spouting hateful and controlling rhetoric on podcasts and Ahole Tate brainwashing adolescent boys. Fuck these people.
Young men and young women haven’t been around long enough to have seen anything change like your suggesting. If that were the case it would be older women and men who are changing
The study about low skill gamers being the most likely to be sexist over voice chat will forever be on my mind.
🌳 Die? No. We lost them, and now we cannot find them.
Now I hear Treebeard whining about modern females and how none of them want to be Entwives for alpha Ents
If you read the books, you'll find that you're not far off.
Poor Treebeard...
So probably -
When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression
Men want the days back when they were more in charge and didn’t have to worry about consequences so much.
Probably as an over reaction to lost wages and the feeling of being completely unable to secure financial freedom for their family if they even had one which likely makes them feel like failures thus the hard pivot back to forceful ideology.
I mean unfortunately expectations of what a "man is" hasn't changed much since pre world wars with added consumerism since.
So it's equality where the equality is worse for everyone and social stigmas still are abound. It's a powder keg.
I mean minus South Korea, the graphs still show young men leaning left at pretty steady rates. More young women have moved left though, which is perhaps unsurprising given how hostile right wing politics is towards them. (And how open that's become recently)
When the fuck were those days? I’ve been alive since 1977, and at no point since have I been “in charge” or “not had to worry about consequences”
Those "good old days" are mostly just an invention of modern propaganda, a narrative that people nowadays tell themselves about the past, so they have some sort of ideal reality to work towards and hope for the future. Norman Rockwell, George Quaintance type shit, and now you can have it AI generated. Never mind the leagues of working class men that still went underpaid, lived in shithole stick houses, died of the black lung, never mind the segregation and systemic racism and redlining which reinforced all this shit, never mind the fact that the system is and always has been a zero sum game with haves and have-nots. That all gets whitewashed, and people get presented some ahistorical vision of the good old days when you could get a king sized snickers for a nickel.
Probably somewhere in the 1800s
The data just...doesn't support this premise, so probably not.
Another Lemmy post with no source in the main post.
Had a hunch from the bg color: Source
Edit: Paywall Bypass
Does FT have that color copyrighted/trademarked? They're the only ones who seem to use it
Difficult to assess this info without knowing how the data was created.
Also hard to believe the American average is +20 leaning lib. The country is represented by a fascist party and a centrist party, and anything more left than the centrist party is considered "far left".
The graph is about young people, not the entire population. Young people in America are historically more progressive than older people.
Also why does liberal and conservative have to be on an absolute scale? The words liberal and conservative seem to me at least be about pushing politics in one direction or another. Because policy is always subject to change, shouldn't the words liberal and conservative be relative to the political system they exist within?
The Y axis here is not an absolute international political compass. It measures which political party each person favors, and judging by that country's local standards categorizes that party as either left or right.
A rising number in the US chart means a larger number of people prefer democrats over republicans. It doesn't mean that people's stances are necessarily moving further left. Similarly, it's no coincidence that the inflection point where UK numbers rise by a lot correspond to Brexit: the party seen as responsible for the unpopular change lost a lot of support, but that doesn't mean the population has so sharply moved drastically more progressive in such a short time.
The US population is largely some variety of “liberal” meaning vaguely left. The problem is the structure of our government favors land, not population.
What the fuck South Korea? Also you just know that sudden rise in liberal men in the UK is the Tories' doing.
SK is wild right now. Women are taking part in the 4B movement (no dating, sex, childbirth, or marriage. The Korean words start with "B"). There was a online feminist group that got people so heated they thought they were sneaking hand signals into "male" media and they were getting people fired. If certain characters didn't come out with risqué enough clothing, male netizens would blame some secret feminist in the company. Women are assaulted if they're confused for a feminist due to just their hairstyle. A book ("Kim Jiyoung 1989" I think) that is, like, baby's first feminist literature, can have your spouse leave you. Men say you can't date a woman whose read it. All the book is about is the subtle sexism women face. They have an epidemic of "molka," which are secret cameras in women's bathrooms among other places. Women tell each other to bring nail polish to paint over the screws to protect themselves. Their new president is looking to abolish the gender equality ministry and blames feminism for the low birth rate.
TL;DR: Yeah, it's pretty bad over there right now.
Edit: Here's a two part video that goes over this surprisingly well for being about gacha games. Part 1 and Part 2.
oh yeah, South Korea has gone off the rails recently. lots of news stories about men assaulting women for the assumption that they're feminists, anti-woman politicians being elected, women losing their jobs for being (or assumed to be) feminists, it's all Very Not Good.
The Tories are really good at convincing people to hate them, fuck the Tories
It's very easy because the Tories have recently decided that the reason people don't like them is because they're not fascist enough, so they've doubled down and decided to be more fascist. At least trying to be, but it's difficult to be fascist when you lost power due to being awful fascists.
Weirdly people didn't want that, and so now they're even less popular.
Conservative being down is a good presentation choice.
From a personal point of view, I agree, but playing devil's advocate, really the chart should be flipped so that the left/rightness is shown that way and the dates are on the vertical axis.
It'd also be good if the time periods matched, and if there was a source for the data.
The swapped colors aren't, though.
The important thing here is to know how did they measure young people's political ideologies. I wouldn't expect it was self-perceived as currently, people have a hard time admitting they are conservative compared to admitting they sympathize with a conservative party.
If it was determined by a questionnaire, it would be interesting to see what questions were included. Maybe the questions weren't well planned and that's it. Maybe they equalled feminist takes to progressive liberal ones, which is something that can be discussed. In this case, I would be picky about the origin of the graphics.
This seems to be the original source of this graphic. But it just says "FT analysis of General Social Surveys of Korea, Germany & US [...]"
If the importance of women's issues like reproductive freedom were overrepresented relative to other issues, this would definitely account for at least part of this difference. But "importance" itself is already a very subjective concept. It's hard to put numbers on these things and create a scoring system that's actually useful.
It's weird that the axes of where "centre" is remain stable over time. Can you imagine comparing "left vs right" between the 1890s and the 1920s? Like a bunch of stuff happened in between, history happened, and that tends to redefine left, right and centre.
Great observation! This is called the Overton Window
I genuinely fear for future for women across the world
Lol yeah woman were much safer, better educated, and financially independent historically. /S
The gap sounds plausible, but I highly doubt the overall positions relative to 0.
E.g., the Federal Republic of Germany has had conservative chancellors for 51 years out of the 75 since it was founded. We did not have a constant left majority (I assume that is what they mean by liberal, since the actual sense of the term doesn't make sense as an opposite to "conservative").
Edit: I fucked up, this is only about people below 30.
These graphs only cover the demographic of 18-29 year olds, which historically do lean heavily towards progressive.
The difference by sex is the really interesting feature.
That explains it and I did indeed overlook it. Thanks for the heads up.
Ohh wait, this is actually good for my dating chances. Gotta find the good in the bad...
What's the source? I wanna learn about the weird unexpected drops in some countries.
For anyone else also interested, I went and had a look at the links Dessalines kindly provided.
The source on the graphs says "Sources: Daniel Cox, Survey Center on American Life; Gallup Poll Social Series; FT analysis of General Social Surveys of Korea, Germany & US and the British Election Study. US data is respondent’s stated ideology. Other countries show support for liberal and conservative parties All figures are adjusted for time trend in the overall population." Where FT is financial times.
It's not clear how the words "liberal" and "conservative" were chosen, whether they're intended to mean "socially progressive" and "socially traditional" or have other connotations bound with the political parties too, and whether the original data chose those descriptions or if they're FT's inference as being "close enough" for an American audience.
Unfortunately the FT data site is refusing to let me look at them without "legitimate interest" advertising cookies so I can't tell you much more or if there's any detail on methodology.
Interestingly it looks like in 3 of 4 charts men have, at worst, returned to mean. It's the women getting more leftist. And I don't blame them.
Liberalism isn't the same as Left. It's not even in the same political axis.
You can't really read "more liberal" as being the same as "more leftist".
Left would be something like: "I want the greatest good for the greatest number".
Liberalism would be something like: "I want people to have the most freedom to do whatever they want".
You might notice that these two things collide in things like the existence of the super-rich, were for a liberal that's a good thing (they have maximum freedom) whilst for a Leftie it's a bad thing (wealth concentration reduces the access to resources for the many hence it directly goes against the greatest good for the greatest number).
Similarly centralizing control of part or the whole of the Economy (which decreases trade freedom) to achieve greater equality is absolutelly valid within the Leftwing principles and entirely against Liberal principles.
it's only in places like the US, were the entirety of Leftwing is about 4 congressmen, that Liberalism gets confused with Leftwing.
In graphs like these it is very much all smushed together. Otherwise they'd need a 3d plot.
If you want to get really technical too, liberalism and socialism have giant grey overlap areas. Classical Liberalism wasn't just about personal freedom, but also government by the people, for the people. Which is a collective good and freedom.
It's not nearly so easy as labeling one person a leftist and another a liberal. So above I use leftist in it's colloquial meaning of getting less conservative, literally moving to the left.
Yeah, I would classify them as mean
Why does everything appear to appear at +15 across the board just before 1990?
Rise of Streamers. Uneducated man childs giving advice to teenage boys, while "living the life"...
Imagine an angsty teen with blue balls hearing the opinion on women from his idolized, expensive car driving, pumped up tattooed narcissist how to pick up girls every evening.
That shit is toxic populism in times with lots of uncertainty about the future.
Prior to the Internet people got a lot of their political opinions from mass media, which would explain why everyone thought the same back then.
My guess (based on no hard facts, bust purely speculation): This statistic is for the age group of 18-29 year old. Young people tend to be more liberal and grow more conservative as they age.
There might also be a political or economic component, but i think age is the primary reason why these graphs mostly show a liberal bias for the samples.
Huh, that explains the 4B movement in S. Korea.
In my city, there's a Korean community and from my friend who is a teacher, those girls who left Korea hate Korean dudes and want to hook up with Americans.
I don't understand anything about Korean culture or k-pop.
But after reading about 4B, this is starting to make sense.
a Nier fandom?
As a Transfem, it's because conservatives suck (granted I despise all forms of liberalism).
Also why the hell is liberalism considered "left-wing" its center right at most.
Political education in the US and many of the countries that hold these polls is awful. I'd trust a middle-schooler from Cuba, Vietnam, or China more than an ivy-league-educated polysci graduate when it comes to political awareness.
The people who process these data have limited vocabulary or need to speak to those who do.
Generally, a supporter of the political philosophy liberalism. Liberals may be politically left or right but tend to be centrist.
Did you just say conservatism is a form of liberalism?
In the United States the Republicans follow a form of Liberalism, Libertarians a form of Classical Liberalism, and Democrats a form a Neoliberalism.
Political scales are socioculturally calibrated. There’s a center of mass, and we don’t get to decide what is left of that center.
Maybe some day when more than 1% of the public are anarchists liberalism will move closer to the center. I dream.
Is anyone brave enough to ask why?
Women are rightfully concerned about the loss of bodily autonomy. They don't want to live in the handmaids tale.
This is probably more of a symptom than a cause, but social media platforms pushing manosphere content isn't helping.
It’s “The Woke”. Women are more visible in society as they are treated more equally, so certain (yes not all men) men see that as men losing rights and want to go back to “the good old days”
If you created a similar graph mapping the ideology gap between races or straight and LGBTQIA+ they’d look very similar.
Fascism is sociologically rooted in the sexual insecurity of men. That's why it's always men driving it.
Fascism is Capitalism in decline. Masculinity is a recognized part of fascism, but fascism is rooted in Capitalist decay, not in moral failures of men.
So facism is mens fault? I wonder how that effects a young man who isnt a facist while they are developing? Ur narrative is actively harming young men and driving them to be the very thing u swore to drstroy.
Do you have a reason to think this or did it just sound good in your head
to the privileged, equality is oppression. And therefore more pushback to maintain the status quo
The answer is simple the media is radicalizing people and gender is one of their primary motivations it is hand tailored to divide and conquer minds.
I agree. Any divide they can make they will make. Its also convenient as it means they can use their culture war propaganda for double action to distract the masses.
Rapid increases in the productive forces of South Korea has resulted in a progressive population of women and a hyper-reactionary population of men, the increase in productive forces was so rapid it caused a hyper-sharpening of contradictions with tradition.
Women's lib has been great for women but not so good for men. So men are becoming reactionary.
Bullshit. Most men suffer under toxic patriarchy as well. I absolutely love that this shit is finally getting pulled into the spotlight. I have not suffered a single iota of harm from anything "woke" and I would argue that no honest man has either.
What the fuck?
Just because one side gets more rights, doesn't mean the other side loses rights.
I guess if the rights you miss is the ability to beat your wife without repercussions.
Apparently you are, god speed you poor thing.
Im not afraid of downvotes or getting my feewings hurt.
Hey look if you start taking away white male privilege they freak out when they find out people of other races, genders and creeds are better than them, who knew?
Then why are young men being disproportionately affected? Older men are not swinging like this.
Older men are generally already in a position of benefit, locked in a system where they cannot be taken down from their position of power. Reforms are coming at the beginning of the chain (entrance to university, internships and early job opportunities). Young men in families where their father/grandfather were in systems that benefited them - and also nepotism - have the understanding they will need to do very little to succeed. They have not put the effort in because they were told they would not have to compete.
Have a look at old laws for where you live in the world. Find out whether your mother or grandmother actually had the opportunity for higher education, or even whether she could get/keep a job after she had children and then form your own conclusions from there.
I'm surprised most comments here try to give any other explanation but this.
Sauce, for those interested - https://www.ft.com/content/29fd9b5c-2f35-41bf-9d4c-994db4e12998
In the US, Gallup data shows that after decades where the sexes were each spread roughly equally across liberal and conservative world views, women aged 18 to 30 are now 30 percentage points more liberal than their male contemporaries. That gap took just six years to open up.
So it might be worth taking it with a pinch of salt because I'm betting it's using the very dumbed down "liberal vs conservative" 'murican political view. Maybe skew all results down 3-6 points.
I believe that a significant factor for this can be attributed to mental development and maturity of boys lagging behind that of girls of the same age, during formative years. And, please read on, if you assume my argument is "boys dumb, conservatives dumb. Q.E.D."
The second factor is an education system where this offset in mental development/maturity is further confounded. Boys don't typically do as well, because sitting idle and being a "good boy", is more challenging. This leads to a path for boys to start working earlier, while girls get higher degrees. (I assume the trends for higher education by gender, to be similar, if not, then that can falsify this hypothesis).
What a person then observes they get from society, vs what you pay in terms of taxes, is skewed between these two groups, and highly correlated with gender.
If this hypothesis has any validity to to it, then one could argue that a way to mitigate this is by correcting the negative causes. Where the fundamental root cause might be improved by revisiting how education is failing boys in particular.
The challenge with this is that if the conservative parties' policies are driven by what can make more people vote conservative, then this will be a negative feedback loop. The worse you make it for a certain group of people that vote for you, the more that group is willing to vote for you.
I think the issue is simpler, in that the traditionally dominant group statistically reacts negatively to the levelling of the field and their loss of control and power over the other group. This and the fact that it's statistically harder to see the oppression and feel for it when you are not affected by it(and this goes for every form of oppression).
Ok, then this would mean older women would be skewing further liberal, not younger women who don’t have any life experience to have seen anything change in these ways.
So here's the question - is the scale consistent over time? That is, do we consider the same ideas left/right wing in 202x as we did in 199x?
Let's assume it is. We're seeing men lean towards the center/right, and a lot of people are asking why. The trouble is, the answer isn't one people like to hear - in our headlong pursuit of equity, we're introducing a lot of inequality. You lift the ladies up, while you let the men climb - all based on the assumption that the women had further to climb so what you're doing is levelling the field.
Countering this is a sympathetic voice, one offering to bring back equality or offer a different kind of equity. Casting gender equity as a zero sum game, and pushing for equality aimed at the ones not being lifted up.
I often hear the "uneducated men" argument, but that's just an ugly echo from the past serving those it once oppressed in a bitter irony. The reality is that even educated people can fall for propaganda. Especially when voting in what they see as their own self interest.
If the scale would not be consistent, the results is actual worse. The whole political spectrum is moving towards the right. Traditional left wing parties here in Germany doing right wing stuff is getting normal.
And I don't see any left party in the U.K. or U.S. parliaments.
Cries in UK
Hopefully, in the distant future (as t -> inf), we will all become conservatives. Not out of resistance to change, but because we did so well: We have progressed to such an optimal point that any further step (progress) would lead to something worse. Maybe the trends reflect this?
The good news is that almost universally, women vote in greater numbers than me. So on average its still breaking to the left.
That's also a symptom of Capitalism producing its own gravediggers.
Only if the trend between women getting more liberal and men getting more conservative cancel out. If you have a graph like South Korea where young women vote moderately more liberal, but young men become drastically more conservative, then it still results in an overall shift towards conservative values.
Does it, though? If I lean a little bit left I'm going to vote left, whereas if I lean a lot left then... I'm still going to vote left (or vice versa). Granted, I might vote for a more fringe party then further I lean, but I don't think a greater divide will reflect in the number of votes particularly.
How does it start with women being more conservative than men in Germany and the US?
In the US it starts in 1985, which is about a decade after the Vietnam war, which obviously hit men a lot worse then women.
For Germany it was a similar thing. Conscription to fight in the potential war within Germany. So a decent chance of having to fight and die.
My guess is from a rise in hatred of homosexual men during the aids epidemic in the 80s maybe?
Canada is so fucked. I understand the fatigue with Justin Trudeau and the Liberals but if PP wins it truly is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
We deserve whatever comes from the next election. A person is smart. People are dumb.
There is no "fatigue" with Justin Trudeau.
People are pissed off and struggling because of the decisions that their municipal or provincial government make, and then misattribute that pain to the federal government.
Yet, they'll vote conservative, not realizing this.
Housing affordability, healthcare, education, traffic congestion, crime, homelessness, childcare, or even snow removal ARE NOT the responsibility of the federal government.
Rather than buying "fuck Trudeau" stickers and flags to put on their oversized pickup trucks, maybe voters should learn how our government is structured.
Halp!!!
Those letters mean absolutely nothing to me
Canadian politics: red, Liberal party (center); blue, Conservative party (right); orange, New Democrat party (left); green, Green party (was kinda conservative, then had a meltdown around identity politics); BQ are kind of French separatists.
The colors are also meaningless as well since there was no global definition of each color means respective to political leanings. So it's basically a meaningless picture. At least the OP graphic (while it has some pretty big problems) tells you which is left and which is right.
Here you see the chinese meddling in other countries' politics. The canadians are so brainwashed by the chinese that in canadian elections they vote for the Communist Party of China!
Weird that men used to be more liberal at any point.
Labour movements, maybe?
good take. the shift began at a point where not only work became more deregulated, but women were pressed to work out of home and accumulate both their jobs and the function of homemaker. you start to fight more for your rights, and men start to believe the neocon "rights for men" mumbo-jumbo.
Anyone wanna take bets that the datatrend will change once we have fully functional Gynoids?
Okay, but how many are leftists?
So many men who will never get a girlfriend and not understand why. Social media influencers were a mistake.
corporate enablers
??? So many holes in the way this data is presented
South Korea has one of the worst reproduction rates of the world, caused by women deciding to not choose a man to spend their life with but to live their own life. Which apparently causes men to freak out and go conservative
It’s almost as if these “traditional conservative values” have something to do with women having less agency in their lives.
I recall someone saying in India gay men are more acceptable because it removes a rival. Lesbian are a eldritch horror as they removed 2 mens dream of a wife. Loneliness turns people into monster's.
Hey can you pls give me the source? I want to look into that.
Is this related to differences in prefrontal cortex maturity rates in young adults?
If it was, you'd have to argue how that only got to impact results in the past 5 years. It's more likely to be an environmental factor. If only we could point to something that has changed in the past 5-10 years...
I think it's safe to assume at least one environmental stimulus. I'm just curious about the diverging trend between the sexes. Why did they respond disproportionately?
If by that you mean biological differences, then no way. Genetics don't change on this sort of short time scale. It's almost certainly socio-economic factors.
edit: to clarify genetics for something with the generation time and growth like humans, if we were looking at bacteria you could of course easily see major shifts like resistances to antibiotics in much shorter time frames.
No of course not. I don't have a particular idea in mind. I've heard many people state that the prefrontal cortex develops sooner in women, and this specifically affects how much of the brain is engaged in decision making.
I was certainly prone to seeing everything in black and white in my early 20s. This may have affected my younger brain's susceptibility to extremist views.
oh my god what a stupid post
I'm not the smartest guy in the room, but what makes you say that?
I wonder why Dessalines is posting this sort of stupid charts
Is this.. tilted slightly?
Am I leaning?
left-leaning, maybe
I sometimes think they turn conservative because women won't date them.
I'm pretty sure women don't want to date people who have any sort of disposition that leans towards hating them or believing that women are lesser than men.
Unfortunately, a lot of men learned that way of thinking early in life(from family and/or media) and it ruins any attempt at a relationship, then they blame women and run to the very people who set them up to fail for validation, or find new ones like that sex trafficker with the pizza boxes, or that canadian psychologist who sugar coats sexism online. Repeat ad nauseum.
In the age of social media I imagine people are actually a lot more antisocial than we used to be…. And if young men and young women are all online more now and actually go out to interact in person less than we used to, this would make it a lot more difficult for young men to interact with the young women long enough to ask them out….
Hagmaxxing..? Do you hear yourself? None of this is based on reality.
Edit: oh you’ve already been removed on another instance, nice