Something that I realized about the fediverse is that you seem to be able to criticize the USA as a whole, but if you criticize the Democrats you get downvoted. Democrats suck they are not sacred cows
The Democratic Party on the whole is captured by the donor class as a direct result of Citizens United. This has led to the hollowing out of the grassroots movements that are necessary for a large coalition of diverse interests to compete against the oligarchic cabal that makes up the GOP. This decimated the rank and file operatives that used networking within their communities to create political action and replaced it with endless fundraising emails, even as the primary process was corrupted (Hillary v Bernie, Biden v Bernie) to remove clout from the progressive wing of the party.
This led to the disillusionment of many Democratic voters that they have any say in the nomination process (the last time we had a real primary was Obama 2008 - almost 20 years ago), and the result is a slate of weak centrist candidates that for the most part play lip service to liberal cultural issues while blocking any real progressive economic progress.
The purpose of the Democratic Party apparatus as it exists in 2025 America is to capture and dilute revolutionary energy, so that people don't take to the streets and demand real change. Yes, there are some independents and good folks within the Democratic Party trying to make a change (AOC, Jasmine Crocket) but the power players (Pelosi, Schumer, Jeffries) are still refusing to stand up to the overt fascist takeover of our country.
The system as it exists will not change, and without change, we're barreling into a fascism induced depression and possible civil war that will likely ravage the planet.
You would think committing a genocide would’ve settled the whole “lesser evil” thing, but the Blue MAGA cult insists there’s a way to commit lesser evil genocide now.
The problem with people with like you is you listen to what the Dems say they’re doing, and don’t bother to confirm what Dems are actually doing. It’s why you’re all terrified of Trump’s immigration policies, and have no clue that Obama & Biden deported way more people.
You’re in a cult.
Now this fucking guy is on .ml too?
lol
Obama and Biden said they'd legalize weed. They didn't. They failed to put abortion rights into the constitution. I mean I can go on these are just off the top of my head.
They are not immune to legit criticism, however it seems like people get the idea that if you criticize democrats that means you are a die hard Trumper or something...
Didn’t close gitmo. Didn’t end the war on terror. Created the same border camps democrats cry at the gates of for political points. Bailed out the perpetrators of one of this countries most high profile and damaging financial crimes because they held rich peoples stock portfolios hostage. Made pointless concessions on the ACA to republicans who never once cross the isle for even the things they want to pass because they’d rather take the credit themselves.
Those are the ones I’m pulling off the top of my head.
I mean didn't Trump also promise that and not deliver
Nobody hates Democrats as much as Democrats do.
Nobody gets betrayed by democrats as much as democrats do.
Probably because two political parties isn't enough to truly represent the population.
People shit talk non voters, but these are people who found no representation in the two party system. We can change this. We can have more then two political parties. To think otherwise is to think inside the world's smallest box.
Pelosi and the DNC have hated the left more than they hate the right for a good long time, yeah.
I downvoted. Not because you criticized democrats, but because your stupid post says you get downvoted for that. No you fucking don't. You almost always get up voted for it. This is a garbage bait post.
I've got more that were closer to the election when the politics community was still delusional about Democrats winning by ignoring core voter demands.
Cool. No need to look further than this post though. It's got positive votes despite implying it should be negative. It only takes one counter-example to prove the statement wrong. It doesn't have to be true every time.
Yeah, sometimes it'll get downvoted, especially if you're a dick about it. It's not that surprising.
My comment history says otherwise. I get downvoted whenever I remind people that the Democrats are guilty of genocide.
That's because you have to contort the truth significantly to make that even passably correct. It is more accurate to say the democrats aren't going to stop selling arms to Israel as very few if any are actively engaged in fighting in Palestine.
I went digging through your comments a bit to see what you're talking about, and no most are upvoted from what I saw. There are exceptions, like this one:
I think teaching the Democrats a lesson was worth it. They can’t commit genocide and pretend to be the lesser-evil. You can and should oppose both. I am of the personal opinion that evil hiding behind polite decorum is a greater threat than evil that doesn’t pretend to be good. You are free to disagree.
Yeah, no shit you get downvoted for stuff like this. People aren't going to be very thankful you support their suffering being worsed. The people in Gaza also probably aren't super happy that Trump has straight up supported the plan for genocide and taking the land.
Being critical of Democrats gets upvotes. Being a callous asshole who says Democrats "learning a lesson" (which I haven't seen any evidence for) is worth all the suffering the Trump adm. will cause will deservedly get you downvotes.
You must be on some weird ass instance. I see tons of reasonable anger at democrats and Republicans alike. I don't see upvotes for baseless tribal click bait like this tho
Nah, post something to /c/memes saying the US is a fascist nation and has been so for decades, it's upvotes galore.
Imply the democrats have anything to do with it, and suddenly what's the time in Moscow, how does Xi's dick taste like, yadda yadda
and suddenly what’s the time in Moscow
ah, now I get the Hexbear sidebar clock joke
Oof sounds bad
Liberals think Democrats aren't half to blame for this shitty country being the way it is.
Who you calling a liberal?
The ones who get their undies twisted when we criticize Democrats.
Running a feckless campaign that refused to break with Biden's admin on genocide is why we got this living hell. And running the most unlikeable woman in the country in 2016 is what made 2024 even a possibility.
Dems have fucked up terribly.
That about sums it up.
I'll vote Democrat as long as the alternative is fascism.
But fuck me, I'd love to vote for something else. And I'll be honest, I have no idea how we get anything better.
I hear people saying to organize, but I can't even imagine what that takes. I wonder if most Americans feel as helpless as I do in the face of this absolute bullshit.
I’ll vote Democrat as long as the alternative is fascism.
Unfortunately, much of what the Democrats represent is fascism.
The hard fact is that what the population votes for is what the population gets. They have completely given up their agency and just accept this impotent logic of "we'll take whatever the most obvious/most apparently easy option is, that isn't a Republican". It's a cyclical problem, the voters don't care enough to force politicians to be good, and the politicians don't care enough to court voters.
You're absolutely right
As in criticizing Democrats on their merits or criticizing Democrats as equally bad as Republicans? Big difference between the two.
Let me try! Democrats who don't support ranked choice voting are selling us out.
For real. Democrats criticizing their own politicians is as old as the modern Democrats. That's part of the problem, everyone marches in lock step on the right and the left argues about every action their politicians take.
Have you never heard of "RINOS"? Republicans attack Republicans they don't agree with just as hard if not harder.
The problem is, the Republican party actually rallies around what their constituents support because they know they need their base, while Democratic party expect their constituents to rally around what their leadership supports because they take their base for granted.
Democrats are not "our politicians"
I've never seen anyone actually say democrats are equally as bad as republicans. Ive seen a lot of legitimate criticism of democrats be framed that way.
New to the internet?
I have.
Nah. Both parties suck. Repubs damage, Dems half ass do damage control, then sit around making minor changes and act like they're saviors. The geriatric fucks that hold seats have no semblance of understanding the current world and so we fall behind the curve further every year. Easy things that are obvious never get passed because those get bribed. Sick of the whole system obviously.
Republicans are the problem. Democrats are pretending to be the solution but are also the problem.
The reason Democrats deserve more hate is because they divert people from organising a solution to the problem. At least Republicans are honest about how much they suck.
Democrats don't do damage control, they actively build the machinery for the next republican to be even more brutal.
They got so heated about pro Palestinian stuff on TikTok that they handed Donald Trump authority to ban any website he feels like by executive fiat. Then TikTok didn’t get banned and Trump got for credit for saving it.
I will never forget kente clothes.
It's an unfortunate trait of the reddit migrations. That place was crawling with die-hard liberals, not entirely dissimilar to scabies. It stands to reason a few of the uninitiated would find their way here.
In spite of how I started this comment, we must remember that they are of the working class, and further division is a benefit exclusive to the capitalist.
I feel that the further we sink into full-blown fascism, the more of them will become aware, and may be counted among allies one day soon.
I plan to speak to those who are willing to listen and learn. But beware the contentious fool, ever seeking a debate but never trying for understanding.
.world got the liberals that were too delusional for reddit.
I agree, but the fact that they even came here gives me hope that they are open to change. It's the ones who stayed on reddit are the lost causes, I think.
It's because a lot of the criticism attributed to "the Democrats" it's just general criticism about the government and has nothing to do with a Democrats specifically.
I really feel like as soon as a Democrat gets in the office people forget that the other half of the government is fucking Republicans that will do anything to stop Democrats from getting what they want... That's the entirety of what Turtleman is made of.
It’s because a lot of the criticism attributed to “the Democrats” it’s just general criticism about the government and has nothing to do with a Democrats specifically.
I have very specific criticism of my Dem Mayor Bill White. The guy has been a cancer on the city and the party since his first term in office. He exists almost exclusively as a sell-out, as a money spigot for the horrifyingly corrupt city police department, and as a means of obstructing any kind of mass transit improvements straight down to fucking bike trails.
The problems with White aren't unique to this candidate. They're endemic to the party. You've got people who will not fucking retire, who are entrenched in their seats through gerrymandering and these enormous corporately-financed war chests, and who only ever seem to compromise with their right-wing next door neighbors. They do a shit job for years on end, get the most greasy, sychophantic press coverage, then trash people in their own party on their way out the door. Also, just shameless bigots, besides.
More often than not, these are Democrats of convenience. They only run under the party banner because the seat their contesting is tilted liberal by demographics or gerrymander. Your Eric Adamses and Lori Lightfoots and Henry Cuellars and Kristin Sinemas would be interchangeable with a Tim Scott or Rick Scott or Scott Walker any other voting day. But they've coded themselves as liberals in order to blend into liberal communities. And they've sold their souls for campaign cash, so they'll say anything to anyone the day before the election, then toe the corporate line the day after.
I really feel like as soon as a Democrat gets in the office people forget that the other half of the government is fucking Republicans
When Democrats are in the majority, they're helpless because the majority isn't big enough.
When they're in the minority, they're helpless because Republicans are being too mean to let them do compromises that enrich the donors in their districts.
When they win an election, it is because they got the Silent Majority support of the Liz Cheney Republicans. When they lose an election, it is because AOC scared off their base of support or Jill Stein conspired with Vladimir Putin to trick Palestinian voters into voting for Iran.
Somehow, Republican obstruction only ever works for Republicans. And Democrats are always running perfect campaigns, perfect governments, and perfect foreign policies, only voters are just too stupid to notice.
It's never the Dems' fault. The only solution you're presented with is to vote for Democrats harder. And if the Dems don't win in historic landslides, you only have yourself to blame when the Liberal President's last budget pays for the Liberal Mayor to task his Liberal Police Chief with herding everyone browner than a paper bag into the gas chamber.
Looook,
We are ALL going to Hell, FAST (choose your doom(CC,WWIII,etc).
We are all in the same car, here -like it, or not.
One party, …I’ll let you guess which 😉, has the accelerator pinned to the mat. “We’ll be there in 5 minutes, Boys!! HELL ON EARTH HERE WE COME!”
The other party, is simply driving at half that speed. Results are the same. They are flawed. But they CAN slow the car to give us a bit more time to “brace for impact”. But they too bought into Hell as a destination.
But ya, we’re ALL fucked no matter how much you pledge to one party or the other. One party just whispers in your ear and it’s a bit more gentle while they fuck your already ragged ass.
The other party just dry-humps you violently until your blood provides enough lube for them to finish while pounding their chest as you lie there, bleeding out of your ass on the nice, clean sheets.
That about sums it up from my perspective.
The problem with this is that it assumes both parties act independently.
You know how right now how Republicans are willing to use every loophole, cite ancient forgotten laws, and violate every norm? That's always been possible. You can't actually write a constitution to constrain bad-faith actors. You can always come up with a bogus interpretation to do what you want.
If this is possible, you have to ask, why did leaders ever try to follow the law in good faith? How was it ever possible to establish a norms-based stability when either side could knock over the board at any moment?
The answer is that good-faith interpretation of the law fails when people only do so out of principle. It succeeds when good-faith interpretation is a peace treaty. Both sides agree to follow the law in good faith, as the alternative is complete chaos as both sides try to twist every loophole.
Democrats are a bunch of liberal arts majors that have forgotten that Democracy and the rule of law does not exist because everyone worships them as high ideals. They exist because they are a compromise, a peace treaty.
Republicans break norms. In response, Dems latch on even tighter to the norms. Instead, they should be seeking to break them at every opportunity they can. They need to be as ruthless as the Republicans, and even more so.
Following the rule of law is hard. It means giving up power and results that you could otherwise achieve by violating the rule of law.
Right now, only Democrats are trying to obey every norm and precedent. As such, Republicans have nothing to lose by violating these. It's all upside to them. Their bad behavior is the direct result of Democratic cowardice. If Democrats were willing to give as well as they get, we could actually have a rules-based order again. Paradoxically, a prerequisite for rules to be effective is that both sides need to be willing to violate them.
As I like to say, "The moral high road is filled with corpses"
Well said!
In short, fire with fire. …can’t fight a war with one hand tied to your balls, etc.
Dems have forgotten this. They need a leader to remind them and lead the charge.
if someone told you that, that's what their sex life was like; you would assume that they're a damaged person who needs psychiatric help and those psychiatrist would try to help steer them away from sex partners like that and towards healthier sex partners.
even our neighbors to the south have learned this fact and made their own sex lives better; but we americans are like battered spouses who keep bouncing back and forth between the same 2 abusive lovers because we both refuse to accept how damaged we truly are and because the more damaged among us keep re-inforcing the propaganda that voting democrat or republican is the only "grown up" choice to make as the "adults in the room".
we're only destined for hell if we keep rejecting a third party; places like mexico have already proved that things get A LOT better once you stop carrying the propaganda that third party is "throwing away" your vote.
(or atleast until you get the america's attention and they send in their military and bankers to force you back into those abusive relationships... again).
I wish the Democrats were not being complicit with the Nazis and had half as much of the obstruction the right uses when not in power
The right will break shit to obstruct because breaking shit is also a goal of theirs. The left doesn't have the same win-win obstruction scenario.
It's not that they suck. My problem with them, as an independent, is they've positioned themselves as the moral high ground party while in fact they have no moral leg to stand on. Their leadership had a historic moral test when it comes to the Gaza genocide and they failed it. They had another test to put a great candidate to prevent another Trump presidency, but they bowed down to their corporate masters and picked Kamala.
It's that level of fundamentalism and holier than thou attitude that alienates many people like me. They have zero fighting tactics against Republicans besides clutching pearls and shaming. Kamala's website up until the election day had no "agenda section". You can't really tell what her campaign is about. I guess she's perfect enough and shouldn't be questioned, otherwise "racism and sexism".
They need a complete reset and redo of the party and its principles. Until then, I'm a non voter.
I wish I was this eloquent and well thought out in my replies. This 100% what I would have commented if I didn't have skill issues.
thank you 🙏🏻
I'm not disagreeing with anything you said but a non-voter is a trump voter.
This is the reality you now face.
You do understand how the trolley problem - and your electoral system works?
Very familiar with the trolley philosophical problem, thank you. But you're arguing the lesser of both evils point of view, again. Which is not an excuse anymore. With all due respect, but it's a horrible half-assed defeatist mentality that will never create any meaningful change. And yes, I'm very familiar with the electoral system, and the popular vote. Both of which clearly wanted Trump to win. Denying that this was what the majority of America wanted is delusional. What we should focus on is why on earth did the majority pick such a horrible president (Trump)? I'd love to see Democrats take on that self reflection and come up with better messaging and policies instead of acting like us independents owe them a vote....And no, "racism and sexism" ain't it either.
I'm reminded by this quote from my one of favorite authors (Hunter S Thompson) in 1972:
“How many more of these stinking, double-downer sideshows will we have to go through before we can get ourselves straight enough to put together some kind of national election that will give me and the at least 20 million people I tend to agree with a chance to vote FOR something, instead of always being faced with that old familiar choice between the lesser of two evils?” ― Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72
We're in 2025. Neither Trump nor the Genocide-supporting DNC deserves to be in power. That's what a non-vote is.
How could they replace Harris with anyone? The primary voters picked Biden/Harris and Biden stepped down so how do they select someone else? The new candidate would need to fundraise as the Biden/Harris campaign can't immediately dismantle and shift all funding to the new candidate at the drop of a hat. The new candidate would have had to make the connections to the delegates the Biden/Harris campaign had already done.
How do you think they could switch candidates to someone other than Harris months before the election?
It's a symptom of our two-party voting system. I lost faith in the Democratic party's ability to do anything effectual a long fuckin time ago, the game is rigged for the rich and it will be until we wipe them from the face of the earth.
I'll do you one better, I can't stand either party
I just especially dislike Republicans right now because they're in power
Please understand that the democrats are further right than most countries mainstream right wing parties in Europe noone really likes that Germany elected the CDU (politically similar to the democrats) but we're all very pleased that afd didn't get a majority. Vote for the least damaging candidate and work on the system by protesting. Noone thinks Biden and Harris are saints, they're just the least harmful option.
Noone thinks Biden and Harris are saints
No, but a lot of you seem unwilling to acknowledge that they're genocidal monsters
Wether or not you believe them to be guilty of supporting a genocide, they never publicly said they'd turn Gaza into a beach resort in which Palestinians are not welcome to live. Least harmful option even in the case of Palestine. The correct thing is to vote for Harris and then protest relentlessly to try and get through to them. But now you have a dictator who doesn't care about public opinion as long as he can line his pockets. It probably won't be long before they start shooting protesters so good luck changing anything when that happens.
You have to do a lot more than protest.
Yes but inciting violence is generally frowned upon. So I'll let people come to their own conclusions there.
Spamming as a conservative on multiple posts? This is the same type of posts you see on conservative reddit, always pointing out both sides, when there's almost none of the same type of opinionated posts when referring to Republicans. I know you like to blame Dems, but Republicans are the ones actually promoting and using racism , and fascism right? Where's the criticism against them with such vigor as your post. Your the reason why Reddit has been so aggressive with their banning. Also because your barely mention Rs in good faith. Yes dema has their problems, but Republicans are far worst people.
Where’s the criticism against them with such vigor as your post.
It's not needed, OP and everyone here knows they're horrible. There's no point in adding a redundant "death to Republicans" after every critique of the Democrats who enabled them.
Yes dema has their problems
Genocide trivialization
this is ragebait. democrats constantly criticize their reps, to a fault. obv spending time criticizing dems more than repubs rn is tone deaf and actively harmful. if theres some point to be made like 'jeffries is a sold out dark money lobbyist' plenty would agree; but if someone says 'democrats suck' as a blanket statement rn, im gonna assume theyre a russian bot and block+ban✌️
We were mocked and ridiculed for simply asking for pushback against the genocide when Biden was president.
Jeffries is, I think, one of the major reasons why rank and file dems and most leftists think congressional Democrats are collaborating.
He is unbelievably tone-deaf, obviously bought and paid for by Wall Street, and went on a BOOK TOUR while Congress was in session.
He might as well be carrying a soot-covered fiddle.
This is what Jeffries was doing 3 months ago: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=13H5PGjZ39A&t=110s
Fucking insane. Reading from his book Neo-liberal Baby
Can you criticize Israel here or is it full of pro genecide bots trying to run a narrative?
You can on lemmy.ml, lemmygrad.ml and hexbear.net
This place is pretty far left dude lol. You wont find anyone pro israel here.
You can indeed. This isn't .world.
The Zionist Regime must fall. From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free. Organize in your community to raise awareness of your country's complicity (e.g. weapons manufacture, university/college affiliations) and organize in your workplace to use your power as a worker to sabotage the conflict, especially if you are in ports or manufacture.
The Democratic Party as a whole is like milk in your fridge that's a week past its "best by" date.
The Republican Party is milk that a dog vomited on a Texas in July sidewalk.
We're drinking one of them, because no alternative is possible in the near term.
It's possible to vote for Democrats in 2026 and '28 and '30 and '32 while we build an alternative that can have electoral success, or takeover the Democratic Party from within or heck turn the Republican Party into a party worth supporting...
If all the milk in my fridge is spoiled, I throw it out. Maybe try that?
Aye, we need a new system.
I cannot tell you how sick of these pithy little infantalising pseudo-analogies I am.
No, genocide is not like "milk that is past it's expectation date". Talk like a damn adult.
How about a nice contrived trolley problem metaphor. Everyone loves those.
80 million Dem voters (depicted as "crowd of NPCs" meme): "We are voting for Democrats in the near term because there is no other option"
Umm... Even us on .world agree that Dems are controlled opposition and useless if we want any actual change.
Not on the .world I've seen
Depends, is it an article about Trump? Democrats are saints who can't fail, only be failed.
Is it an article about Democrats doing nothing that hasn't been removed by the mods yet? You'll probably not be downvoted for saying "Biden should have done more of his promises and getting Trump arrested should have been the priority."
As the industrial capacity of most nations was devastated in WWII or never existed until after 1945 we shouldn’t be surprised that we saw more growth during rebuilding than after everything was built so neoliberal policies aren’t the primary reason for slowed growth.
Neoliberal policies were introduced under Reagan and Thatcher before 1984 as both would have been in office for years before 1984 (Regan in 1980 and Thatcher in 1979) which should further complicate your claims.
Most of what has gone wrong is a failure to maintain the social contracts as we promoted a rather sociopathic understanding of growth at all costs in business schools starting in the 1970s.
Cory Booker and Kamala Harris... Eeeehhhh, not sold. Harris had her chance and decided to run as a continuity candidate in a change election, and that kind of incompetence is disqualifying imo.
AOC would make a better president IMO
Go watch Nancy Pelosi's old videos on C-SPAN in the 70s when she was a junior House member. AOC sounds exactly like she did in the 70s and we see how that turned out.
Well everybody already knows that. Like.. The power dynamics of "vote lesser evil, vote for minority candidate, vote for a compromising pseudo-progressive party because it's still something, abstain and stay pure, better face true fascists than traitors, etc." has been around since representative regimes emerged. Yet everyone has to find his/her political and moral stance in this shitshow. And answers will differ, sometimes for legitimate reasons, sometimes because of total bs. That's all there is to it and it's not exactly news.
As a trans person i am currently eating shit for breakfast every day to protect myself, my friends, and humanity. Lesser evil is starting to look like "not being murdered" sometimes
As a trans person, you know a lot of that was happening last year. And the year before, too, right?
I legitimately haven't seen anyone defend democrats. They're like the IRS: necessary, but no one likes them.
What I have seen is "democrats suck!" as a general deflection anytime someone mentions how bad this current administration is, how it could have been prevented, or what we need to do in the future...
Democrats are only necessary if your goal is to maintain the illusion that America is a democracy which serves the people while maintaining the status quo.
Democrats are a net negative. What is necessary is something we don't have and haven't had, a true leftist party. The lack of that necessary party is what has led us to this current situation.
The Republicans being bad doesn't make the Democrats good. Especially when they are complicit.
See, this is people defending the Dems lmao. Not a single falsehood, but it's downvoted all the same.
I have seen plenty and Democrats are not like the IRS. They are not necessary at all. They are just one right wing party that should disappear and be taken by an actual left wing party. The fact that you think that they are necessary shows how deep the ingraining of the necessity of a bipartisan oligopoly has run in the populous.
`The fact that you think that they are necessary shows how deep the ingraining of the necessity of a bipartisan oligopoly has run in the populous.
This is the crux and can not be overstated.`
Let me guess, a left wing party that sucks it up to putin?
What's your take on putins brutal invasion of Ukraine for example?
What I hear is a lot of complaints and very few ideas of what to do about it. The Democrats can be forced to suck less.
The Democrats can be forced to suck less.
Then you probably should have done that before the genocide
During the run up to the election I'll admit i was guilty of this because it was so important for TFG to lose. I wish our bullshit system allowd for more than a fascist and center right party.
Now? Fuck that they aren't leading like they should.
It's exhausting.
How can they? Every outlet has been taken away from them in the last election.
No one is implying that Republicans are any way the solution.
Centrists assume literally all criticism of their wing of the party comes from their right.
I hate to break it to you but I've definitely heard that on Lemmy a few times
Paradoxically, it might actually be. Progressives might actually have an easier time getting elected as Republicans than Democrats.
Remember, Republicans don't actually have platforms anymore. Their base just views it as a football game; they don't actually believe in anything; they just want to win. They nominate celebrities and whoever can simply channel enough raw energy and emotion.
Progressives could run as Republicans, billing themselves as "Radical Republicans," promising to rekindle the fire of the post-Civil War party. They could say they support strong borders, but flip the table on Republicans by running on a strong social safety net.
Remember, the policies progressives champion are actually quite popular among the working white working class Republican base. They just hate that it's Democrats championing the policies. So if progressives simply run as Republicans instead, well that barrier drops away.
If Republicans don't actually believe in anything anymore, and they only run on grievance and vibes, why not just run progressives as Republicans? Run as a Republican and condemn Democrats as being servants of the wealthy. Do it with an R next to your name, and the Republican base will eat it up. Remember, they don't actually believe in anything. If you can offer them the rage and "winning" that they so desperately want, your actual policies are irrelevant. It's entirely possible for progressives to win running as Republicans. In fact, it's probably easier for progressives to win as Republicans than as Democrats now.
I think Green Party politician Peter Camejo said it most succinctly: "Democrats are not the answer."
And they aren't. The Democrats have so successfully neutered the left that nobody has any idea what leftist talking points even are. People are so desperate that they voted for Donald fucking Trump. Twice.
The answer is not to embrace Republicans. The answer is to burn the Democratic Party to ashes. They need to go the way of the Whigs. They're simply irredeemable at this point.
If that's not possible, honestly I think progressives would have better luck running as Republicans than Democrats. Republicans don't really have an ideology anymore. They're all just celebrity, vibes, and raw emotion. Maybe progressives should start running as "radical Republicans," declaring that their intention is to resurrect the spirit of the post-Civil War party. That honestly is probably the quickest way we have now of actually getting progressives elected.
One thing about the Republican party is that it's much more vulnerable to outside disruption and takeover. Trump proved that. The Democratic party meanwhile goes to great lengths in its organization and primary structure to prevent outside usurpers from coming in and grabbing the nomination in a big populist wave.
What I don't understand - and please explain if you can - is why Bernie and like-minded people like AOC etc don't break away from the likes of the Clintons and the Harrises and form their own party. Surely there must be some systemic hurdle keeping them from at least attempting right?
Because they worry (with good reason) that in a first past the post voting system, splitting the liberal votes from the left votes will mean that every single seat in the house and senate will go to the republicans. As shit as the democrats are, they aren't dyed in the wool fascists. The republicans do enough damage with a simple majority. With a two thirds majority they can start making changes to the constitution. And the very structure of the government.
Yes, there aren't enough progressive voters for that party to stand a chance and as we have a money driven electoral system there isn't enough funding for a viable leftist party.
I think there are enough voters, but not with the current FPTP and electoral college system. In my native country people vote for their candidates in a first round, then the top two candidates (by popular vote) go into the second round and people vote again between those. That way people are not afraid to cast their vote to their actual first choice like in the US ("if I vote for this 3rd party, I'm just helping the party I don't like to beat the other party I don't like that much either but it's not as bad as the first one").
I had the question 5 years ago, but watching it closely in last 5 years, I can see having a third party is very difficult, everything is against changing two party system, even Trump, as popular as he is, can do is only to taking over not start from scratch.
Because they are just a facade to make the DNC more friendly to the working class. It is all theatre for them
Correct. It's about money
It’s been 8 years of the lesser evil with Democrats and I’m sick of them. I cannot in good conscience support them any longer because they have time and again chosen to maintain the status quo.
The Biden administration did many things to help Americans, most notably the Inflation Reduction Act and the student debt forgiveness. But most of it is being dismantled by the current administration. And the Dems knew this would be the case. Yet they chose to go the executive order route or the highly diluted down IRA. It’s not the people’s problem that you cannot get your party members in line. Why would we vote for you if you cannot deliver?
Nancy Pelosi chose not to even allow the bill to prevent members of Congress from insider trading. Republicans are using it to line their pockets like never before. You want to have your cake and eat it too. Well the people are sick of your hypocrisy and it showed in the elections.
It’s been more than a month of rapid fire gutting of the US government. What has the party done as the main opposition besides “coming up with a strategy”? Because it’s impossible to do anything meaningful without revealing how much you have gained from the system.
The Democrats who truly care about change need to spin off their own party. That’s the only way enough people will be mobilized to make a meaningful difference in the next elections.
Blasphemer! They are the golden calf! Kneel before your genocidal god else you will get more genocide!
Any and all politicians are open to scrutiny imo. They are PUBLIC servants and as such they should get called on their collective bull shit.
The democratic party has failed us in a massive way. That's just facts. The republican party is a circus with an orange ring leader. None are doing their jobs in a way that truly helps the people, when they enter politis they start thinking of themselves and how lobbying can make them rich. There are only a few exceptions, Bernie, AOC etc...
You get two options with a history of nepotism and complacency. Independent parties stand no chance due to the funding.
Yes, democrats suck, but it's still better than voting for soulless fascists.
Democrats are souless fascist who conducted a 1 and 1/2 year genocide supporting a fascist regime. They tripled the police budget and militarized the police domestically to oppress minorities
Democrats are soulless fascists.
If the system had any legitimacy, Trump wouldn't have been given office the first time due to violating both emoluments clauses much less allowed on the ballot the second time while being an impeached felon.
Even if you think the results of this election are legitimate (both Trump and Elon have as much as said they are not) the GOP has made no secret of P2025 or their goals of cracking down on blue states in future elections.
The slow road to fascism still leads to fascism. Democrats and Republicans are the gas pedal of imperialism. One pushes softly. One pushes hard. Before you argue consider the insanity of Greenland is basically exactly how we took Hawaii. Democrats are largely just good cop convincing you to fuck yourself over for the system. http://politicalcompass.org/uselection2016
Firstly, there are many reasons third parties aren't possible but the largest is basically the Constitution mandating simple majority voting which naturally falls into a duopoly. A third party either cripples or replaces the one it's closest to. CGPGrey can explain it further: https://www.cgpgrey.com/politics-in-the-animal-kingdom
Then you have to understand Democracy is a political system and capitalism is an economic one. In simplest terms, capitalism is a small group of capitalists that own the factories and get all the profit set opposite a large group of workers that sell their lives an hour at a time. The US has a legal fiduciary duty to shareholders which basically means profit must always be maximized. This is the constant pressure on wages to stay down and prices to go up. That doesn't sound inherently terrible until you read into SEC EDGAR filings and find out that the overwhelming majority of every privately traded company is basically owned by BlackRock and cellar boxing has been used to rob American pensions and cripple American businesses including cancer treatments. https://www.reddit.com/r/Superstonk/comments/owpfc3/will_the_real_gme_bbemg_please_stand_up_part_1/
A democracy relies upon educated, competent citizens. Educated, competent citizens think critically, get engaged in politics, want clean water, safe working conditions, and well paying jobs. All of those hurt profits. What more people need to understand is capitalism will always have an intrinsic need to undermine democracy.
What's more, democracy undermines democracy when it's a representative republic wherein only the wealthy can run for office on platforms approved by the wealthy. The DNC and RNC are both privately owned corporations that say who can run on that ballot. All the talk of term limits is further myopic, ignorant self sabotage as there is only a shortage of competent, principled people willing to spend their life in public service. There is no shortage of amoral self serving opportunists for corporations to push through election after election. Eventually you just lose the institutional memory of all the competent individuals.
We're supposedly a nation of the people, by the people, for the people, but once Corporations became people, they became the only people that mattered. 75% of theft is corporate wage theft but you can't arrest corporations because they don't have hands.
This is without factoring in the decades conservatives have spent filling government with end of days dominionists and out right fascists.
This "blue no matter who" bullshit is a different flavor of "lesser evil" that got us here because you can't fix a system when it's working exactly as intended. The founding fathers never wanted Joe Everyman voting because they knew he was a fucking moron. Voting was limited to land owning gentry because they were wealthy enough to not have to work and were able to learn.
All of our failing points are intentional. They don't want smarter people. They don't want more people voting. They want servile minions.
Well said
Libs think they're the party it's so sad lmao
What I constantly hear is deflections about how voting doesn't matter, but it fucking does, yes the Democrats suck but they are better, it's not even close.
Fight back and do everything you can to change what's going on and blame Democrats but don't sell out an entire election cycle to literal Satan to make that point
all that does is irreversible damage
Vote Green when you can, and push on your representatives in between elections.
if a third party was possible under current electoral governance the green party would absolutely not be better
Join us on hexbear and lemmygrad
Why does being downvoted here even matter at all like who cares. Democrats have lost the plot and only care about identity politics. Policy don’t help the average everyday people.
I don't even use votes, it's a system that breeds self satisfaction. Unhealthy thoughts and feelings too
I don't care about any of the two political parties. I just vote based on who sounds the least insane, greedy, fake, and qualified for the job. And maybe someone who doesn't suck billionaire toe and can tax the rich.
Have you thought about voting for the socialist candidate on the Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL)?
Grassroots campaigns for small local government positions building gradual power for progressives to replace them. Do your part.
I'ts possible to acknowledge that Democrats Suck while simultaneously acknowledging that electing one was the only chance to avoid a Trump presidency.
You know, you say that, but in my experience, virtually none of the people advocate for voting blue were actually willing to fully acknowledge how evil the Democrats are. Almost all of them inevitably fall into apologia and denialism.
Good thinking, lets run a mediocre out of touch genocidal centrist for the dems again, and why dont we just skip the primary, right? This time lets get even more republicans onstage to cheer them on. Liz Cheney was not enough to get the republicans to vote for us, and we wont make that mistake again.
I think we have a plan now everybody. We'll need to run it past Pelosi and Schumer and we should be good to go.
A democratic that is average at democracy is better than a conservative who is great at authoritarianism.
"average at democracy" is when you aggressively expand the world's largest police state while persuing a policy of genocide.
I do believe the requirement is that you just need to be specific. Republicans generally suck all around right now so that's a valid statement.
However, if you're going to complain about Democrats you need to say something like, "the leadership sucks" or, "there's too many rich people influencing the party!"
That's been my experience so far 🤷
I think of it like this, democrats are rectal cancer, but rebublicans are gushing arterial spray. Not all, of course. Generalizations are lazy. But the choice is clear, and that choice is rectal cancer.
Fuck both sides of the shitbird
I suppose "both wings of the shitbird" works too.
For sure, about %90 of them voted No to Sander's stop weapon sale to Israel resolution. They are worthless pieces of shits which would switch to the republican party at the blink of an eye had they thought their position in the Democrat party was insecure.
If I thought that the democrat party was the only viable option to defeat Trump would I vote for democrats instead of say, voting a third party? Without a second of doubt, yes. We don't even need to debate whether the Democrat party is marginally better than the Republican party or not. The main important difference is that if Trump wins (which he did) half of the country is going to cheer for every vile shit he does (which they do) and this will enable them to carry this vile shit into their personal lives (which they also do).
On the other hand if Kamala were to do such vile shit (granted there is imo %0 chance she could be this worse on almost all matters) at least she would get booed by the people who voted for her. There is a very big difference between how much these reactions enable a president to do even more extreme shit or not and whether if people are encouraged to replicate such behaviour on a local level or not.
So instead of waiting until the last 90 days and then suddenly going "DON'T VOTE FOR DEMOCRATS OR REPUBLICANS LETS CHANGE THE COURSE OF HISTORY WOHOO", start working from now to make the third options more viable. Then it will be more sincere and useful.
well said. you can pretty much extrapolate this line of thought to every soc-dem, left-of-center, liberal party in the world. they make a wiener water government, blame people when they lose elections and are left wondering why people didn't called their wiener water government a bouillabasse or an onion soup.
Democrats can not and should not be shielded from blame for their inactions, however, with all the low hanging fruit we got right now THIS is what you post?
The Democratic Party got wallopped in the last election because they stood up for marginalized. They got trounced in 2010 because they fought to provide access to healthcare to those who couldn't get it. Biden tried to forgive student loans and young people couldn't bother to show up to the pols in 2022. Lazy edge lord potheads don't show up to vote
Good lord, blueMAGA faithful really have taken leave from reality entirely
I mean, i usually get modest upvotes when i talk about this sort of thing. I believe if we actually want to stop this fall into authoritarianism, our first step is to take control of the Democratic Party. How do you do that? Don’t vote for Neo liberals and ignore everyone who cries that unless you vote blue no matter who the republicans will win. That obviously doesn’t work, and democrats work against leftist policies. They whole time leading up to the election it was all “now is not the time” well i played their game and lost. Now it’s time.
Naw, It totally depends on how you downvote Democrats.
The majority of the anti-magats know the Democrats suck. We also know that the magats suck worse, and then the green and libertarians worse yet.
If you give any form of indication that you think the Democrats are worse than the magats, That's a downvote.
Most of the existing Democrats aren't particularly cozy with the Democratic leadership, or honestly even with the full scope of their intent, But the f if we're going to not download you for promoting something worse.
"Greens are worse than Republicans" is a fucking dog brained take
The Green Party does basically nothing but hoover up donations and eat a small proportion of Democratic votes. They put a candidate in, don't put any money behind them, barely get any media, and people hardly even hear about the candidate until election day.
To be completely honest, I'm thinking the only reason they actually make it to the finish like is that the republicans quietly throw them enough money to help dilute the democratic vote.
The Antivax form Stein, Anti-trans from Ware. If they got in, it would be better than Trump, but they have 0 chance, all they're there to do it cut off a few percent (which damn well might have let trump walk in).
We can't have a 3rd party make it in until we either change the laws, or we have billionaires funding them and pitchforks in the street.
So yes, the Green Party leaders (possibly) inadvertently make it easier for Trump to get in and have no chance of doing anything but diluting a party that has a decent chance of winning and provides 9/10 of the ticket the Green Party wants to put on display.
edit: actually give you some meat for my arguments.
This thread kind of disproved itself
The problem with American democracy is the voting system. A party that isn't either thre democrats or the republicans will never win because people know if they vote for anything else there vote will be pointless.
America needs preferential voting but will never implement it because it would mean the two party system will be demolished (which is in neither of the two party's best interest.)
A lot of western countries have preferential voting, and, while it helps a little, it's very much not a silver bullet. Just look at Australia or Germany.
Yeah your right although in Australia at least, the number of non major party seats are steadily increasing, but again that might change since the current two major parties are pushing through as many laws as possible that make it harder for minorities to have a chance in an election.
It's not just that. It's that politicians get to pick the voters through voter purges,gerrymandering, I'd requirements etc.
You're right, of course. It's obvious to anyone intellectually honest in America, too. That's why almost all third-party candidates (and a growing percentage of Democrats) support either preferential or approval voting.
I want to hereby thank the people who voted "third party" because "both parties are bad". Yeah. Thanks....
This wasn't a Republicans vs. Democrats election. It was Maga vs. Democracy. And people STILL voted for "something else".
Let's say the people where 50/50 split. People who vote maga will 100% vote for trump. So on the other side you CANNOT vote anything else BUT Kamala. Otherwise you are only diluting her chances.
Third has never won. And would not win this time. So by choosing third party you are enhancing Trumps chances of winning.
i Wish my wife was a democrat
I think that's something related to people only being used to a system with two parties. It is either one or the other, no other alternatives. And the fact that they do believe the democratic party is left-wing because it has some progressive views.
Edit: replaced "no in between" for "no other alternatives" because in this case, being in between is just being a centrist and it isn't what I meant
Democrats are shit. However, saying democrats are shit right before a presidential election when the only options are literally fascism, democrat, and third parties with ~zero chance of breaking even 4% of the vote, you're an idiot and deserve to be downvoted.
"Hey these polices suck and alienate voters, maybe change them so you can win the election against a fascist?"
"Why would we wanna do that? We're neck and neck with the fascists, if we pivot it will hurt us, we don't need to swap."
[Loses in a landslide because of the reasons people said they would lose]
We can't have primaries, we're told we're unelectable and only weirdos like us as they refuse to cover winning states, rig them, or just have it then have the nominee back out and place a new one in charge without a vote.
We can't criticize them on social media, we're call Russian assets, secret Trump supporters, and other thought terming cliches. I had someone tell me that because on Mastodon I was on todon.eu I must be a Russian bot, as Americans can't sign up for a website that ends .eu. As a leftist who voted for Biden.
We can't push them left in office, the midterms are too important, the president has different tasks than what the people who voted them into office want.
When are we allowed to critize them? It's not pre-election, it's not after-election, it's not in office. It just seems like we can't ask for anything better from them because we're somehow wanting the people who want to kill us win, when we are asking for healthcare reform and better education.
Genocide deniers suck, including the uyghur and tibetan genocide deniers, including the american native and middle eastern genocide deniers... They all suck...
uyghur and tibetan genocide deniers
You mean like the ethnically and religiously diverse muslim delegations from around the world that investigated the claims of uyghur genocide and declared them unfounded?
Here is an article trying to spin it from voice of america, a state funded US media outlet:
I think the claims of genocide in Tibet are kinda goofy, given the US is trying to prop up some child-tongue-sucking theocratic feudalists to install as their regime.
The United States of America is more important then the Democratic Party.
With state level electoral reform, we could give 3rd parties the freedom to participate in the electoral process without a spoiler effect.
No more hostage situation, more options, elections could be a competition to defeat the republicans/make things better, more democracy.
Who could say no to more democracy?
Republicans? Why of course they would say no. They are passing legislation in red states to protect First-past-the-post voting. In Alaska they held a referendum last election to go back to FPTP voting because Sarah Palin was kept out of office by their Ranked Choice voting system. It didn't pass, the people dont want FPTP anymore in Alaska.
How about the blue states and the democrats that are elected there. Do they support democracy? I guess that would depend on if they are still using FPTP when the mid term elections are hopefully held.
It's not to late, we can have more choices in the voting booth. We can have more then one chance to defeat the republicans.
I think this is a fair POV. No one is perfect. Thinking that you cannot criticise something you are part of, you like, or are somehow related to, is just childish.
Democrats are able to hold those who commit crimes in their party accountable, thst alone is enough difference to disqualify Republicans entirely.
That's why when Biden violated the Lahey law several times he went to jail right?
That's why when Biden violated federal laws to keep building the wall Trump wanted, Biden was investigated right?
Trump went to jail under Biden and Garland and totally didn't get off scott free despite commiting crimes, right?
no no no, by "hold accountable", they mean "make epic twitter clapbacks" and then do nothing materially.
The only instance I've noticed that on is midwest.social.
With the Democrats Netanyahu was on a leash
Good lord, Democrats are delusional
We had Hitler under control! Everything was going according to plan!
Yes but only democrats can say that.
"You don't like my party so you're a Russian." - Republicans in 2000, Democrats in 2025
Because half the time they don’t have primaries and the other half they call anyone making good arguments “unelectable radicals”
Don't just "call them", they actively sabotage them in a way they never do with a reactionary. Labor did it to Corbyn as well, this is deeply ingrained in bourgeois "democracies", if you can vote for somebody who will try to bring change, they've already fucked up a bunch of times.
Voting for genociders and pro-militarized police didn’t stop the genocide or police murdering black people, so I would count it as a very ineffective strategy as well. I rather vote for what I actually believe in than not voting because I will hell not vote for the garbage democrats.
Edit: “Protest vote” lmao, I don’t owe my vote to Democrats.
It’s the compromise for the vulnerable that most often gets brought up in this situation. A protest vote in a broken first-past-the-post election system generally helps the opposition to your vote. Republicans have demonstrated they hate the vulnerable (disabled, poor, debt-ridden) and Democrats are weak in their opposition, but if you want the help those that are vulnerable you would generally not want to subject them to Republicans, whom benefit from your protest vote.
Another argument is that if you fracture the opposition to bootlickers, the bootlickers will win.
Their generally decent goals of bombing children in Afghanistan, bombing people in Palestine, starving children in Yemen, starving children in Cuba, starving children in Venezuela, caging children in the US, torturing people in Guantanamo, bombing children in Yugoslavia, and so on? The bill that resulted in the mass enslavement of the US population (highest prison pop. in the world by far) was passed by the Clinton administration, written by Biden.
Are they only powerful enough to do monstrous shit or do they think you're stupid and will buy their hand wringing? They could have forced through Medicare, deliberately chose not to. They could have codified reproduction rights, deliberately chose not to. They're fucking telling you which issues they care about, it's the ones that they actually pass.
You are not wrong. My point is that dictator trump and his cronies will pave over the bones of Palestinians and turn Gaza into a Trump resort. Strip the rights of all non-christians, minorities, women, and lgbt in America(and this is just citizens!). Take away the only public service for healthcare, meager that it is. We will see nothing but negative progress and monstrous acts from this admin. Monstrous in a far more sinster and evil way than ever before.
well I hope that if you come out of this you come out with a better electoral system I'll say that
Genocide apologia
lol even when you try to do this Pelosi will push the thumb on the scale to get Cuellar, one of the shittiest Democrats (and that's really saying something) reelected over challenger Jessica Cisneros. Or you can even win the primary and then the state party will allow you to languish because you're a working class demsoc instead of a trusted middle-manager of capital. The Dems need people like Cuellar, Sinema, and Manchin so that whenever they have a majority they can still sit around and do fucking nothing until the Republicans come in and shift everything further rightward. Dems love this. Ratchet effect is real. Fuck the Democratic Party. At least the Republicans are honest about how much they hate us.
well said