The problem with not voting

That's not a counterpoint, that's just pointing out that both aren't good signals. The main difference is that not voting or voting third party makes it more likely that the guy you yourself admit you're more scared of more likely to win.
Counter-counter-point : democracy, as a system of government, is pointless because whether you vote, you don't vote, you protest vote, you vote tactically or you just set your ballot paper on fire it's not going to make a difference -- you still get shafted by corrupt fuckers.
- yes we made a bunch of noise about the failures of the democrats in an effort to pressure them to fucking do something. whether you think we are stupid for refusing to vote or not, you can't deny how much discourse there is and how much engagement has occurred.
Stop thinking and start voting!
- Vote early and vote often!
Democracy requires participation to be legitimized by the people.
But sure, don't vote and have the fascists take away those annoying voting rights. Like an idiot.
Putin really love the way you think! <3

yeah, didn't work in brazil, we just opened up for the right to elect their dumbass just before the pandemic started, it was grim, please do vote for the lesser evil.

Yeah, vote if you want, but please do more than that.

My voting strategy is super easy. You don't need to keep up with politics or policy. Just see who the KKK is voting for and then vote for the other guy.

As an outsider, it's really depressing to hear you only get two parties to choose from.
- We have to keep it forever though, because some dead slave owners thought up the perfect government, apparently.
- Well, we get more, but realistically there's only two.
There were a few times the Klan rallied behind progressive pro-civil rights candidates to intentionally sabotage them, but this tactic doesn't get used today.
That's pretty good! Mine is similar: I check which feces-smearing insurrection has attendees with the "Camp Auschwitz" hoodies and vote against their candidate.
- Still better than the alterrnative
- ya, the KKK was only in power for 4 years when everyone was upset about Bernie not winning!
This works 100% of the time.
You shouldn't have just one other guy though. KKK might prefer one, but be ok with the other as well.
Don't they regularly declare they're voting for Democrats as a dog whistle?

You can hate all the candidates and still vote for the less shitty one.

You can hate the concept of government in it's entirety and still vote. Even Lysander Spooner, a total anarchist, said as much in his writings. He said government is completely illegitimate, but there's nothing wrong with voting when you are forced into the system, and doing so does not imply your consent to the system. It's like a torturer asking you how you'd prefer to be tortured. It's OK to have an opinion. Over here in the USA, I'd rather suffer Sleepy Genocidal Joe than that fucking orange monster. Since we don't have ranked choice voting, I have to pick one or else I don't get any say at all, and that's exactly how the powers-that-be want it.
- Yep. Do you want a festering carbuncle on your ass or do you want AIDS, Ebola, leprosy and testicle cancer combined? Shitty choice but an easy one nonetheless.
- If the primaries aren't complete can't you vote for another option?
- I cannot because I'm (fortunately) not a US citizen. If you are and you don't vote, it's a vote for Trump. If you want Trump to win because you think things will somehow get better after he brings down the system, you're delusional.

Got it, should riot instead.

You should.
You won't though.
- A riot on your own is just a tantrum. There's no point of you're not organised.

Agreed, that's why the strategy of voting uncommitted and/or third party is superior.

Except it’s a primary where he’s running against himself basically.
That’s the point. It’s a primary, it’s not the general election. They’re showing up and saying “we’re your voters and you know what our message is.”
- Oh I'm 100% behind handing in a blank or Mickey Mouse or something in the primary. What's upsetting is the people who swear up and down they're going to do it in the general.

If you can, please go vote. You give the vote up to the person you like the least if you don’t show up. I know this election sucks and the candidates aren’t the best. But is there someone you absolutely don’t want in office no matter what? I have one in mind and you better believe I’m showing up to vote for the only guy who can have a chance to keep him away. These other third party guys have no chance, like always. If you don’t show up to vote or vote third party as a throwaway, then don’t complain for the next four years.

These other third party guys have no chance, like always.
Also they aren't serious candidates. You can tell because they just crawl out of the woodwork for presidential elections and cause problems. They don't run for any offices further down the hierarchy and demonstrate that they have good ideas and build up public trust enough to merit their becoming president. They just go on vanity tours and fuck around the serious candidates who are willing to put in the work.

Honestly sometimes I think every country should have its own Sinn Féin of sorts. Just a party that never takes its seats. Yeah, try calling it the "same thing" when you can't pass any legislation or form coalitions or get anything done because a third of the seats in the national legislature are literally left empty on purpose. Don't like it? Well, it's your problem that your party is literally less electable than No Representation!

In the US that would almost literally be voting in Republicans. They want the system to crawl to a halt, and critical functions are legislated to frequently sunset so they can hold the system hostage on a regular basis.
- This is very superficial.
Well, good news, US legislature managed to dismantle itself with all the "checks and balances" and ~~liberum veto~~ filibuster. Now it's just a circus to play for the gullible to legitimize this oligarchic empire. It is no representation, one way or another and somebody should openly state it. The best the progressive caucus could do now is to walk out.
Yeah, try calling it the “same thing” when you can’t pass any legislation or form coalitions
Isn't that the Republican strategy?
- That's the Republican strategy when they're in the minority and the legislation in question is stuff that actually helps people. Real POSIWID hours

CGP Grey's Rules for Rulers spells out power structures in authoritarian and democratic countries really well.

If you vote, you are saying "I can support you, or I can support the other guy, but I will support someone" whereas not voting tells politicians you are politically useless, so they won't pay any attention to your needs.

It's a cynical way of looking at it, but if the no. 1 imperative for a politician is reelection, spending time doing things that will get you more votes is better than wasting time pleasing people who probably won't vote anyway.

Don't know how much credit you can give to the guy who gushes over the monarchy.
- Did you watch the video? He definitely isn't gushing over monarchs in it.

If somebody tells you not to vote, they know who you would have voted for and rather you didn't.

Who would tell someone not to vote?
- AI Biden voices via mass robocall.

As a dual citizen with Australia:

Vote, vote, vote. You are disrespecting all hard-fought wons by marginalized groups throughout 200+ years of history.

Literally, the first voters in the country were land owning white men.

People died. So you could have a say.

You are disrespecting the dead, and denying you civic duty, and your obligation in the social contract, by not voting.

People should be disgraced and shunned for not voting. I do not care what your political beliefs are, even if they are odious or fickle or contrarian or uninformed to me.

Show up and cast your ballot you otherwise absolute disrespectful coward.

So -- and I want to be clear about this -- to honour and respect those who fought and died for my right to vote, I should show up and put a cross next to the name of someone I think is a homophobic, transphobic, bigoted piece of shit just because she is less of a homophobic, transphobic bigoted piece of shit than the other person I could put a cross next to the name of?
To me that doesn't suggest I am showing any honour or respect to anyone. It just says that I am giving up every bit of my dignity, integrity and shame and that when I stand before my ancestors in the Halls of Judgement they will look at me and shake their heads in disgust.
- I should show up and put a cross next to the name of someone I think is a homophobic, transphobic, bigoted piece of shit just because she is less of a homophobic, transphobic bigoted piece of shit than the other person I could put a cross next to the name of?
  Yes. Either voice your opinion for who is less bad, or have no voice. The game is rigged, but it's the only game in town.
Yeah, that's it... lecture and gaslight the people who have seen what you refuse to admit - that's the way to get them back on your side.
People died. So you could have a say.
Innocent people also died at the hands of the government that was voted in. Many people have died for amerika's imperial expansion and due to it. Many have been indentured and still are.
People should be disgraced and shunned for not voting.
What if the state bars you from voting because of past criminal history, regardless of time served? What if you are disabled and cannot make it to the ballot and you live somewhere that has heavily restricted mail in voting? What if you are unhoused and don't have a physical address? You are calling to have these people shunned? How democratic and fair of you.
your obligation in the social contract
As if the social contract is upheld by the people you vote in. We get lied to so they get the vote and then we don't even have recourse to sue or hold them accountable. All we can do is "vote them out" but then they tell us if we don't vote for them, the world will literally end cause the other guy is evil. As if to say democrats are a force for good. lmao
- The ability to vote and participate in a democracy is one thing of many that people have fought for, yes, so it should not be taken for granted. Ignoring it is throwing away the power you and everybody else who can vote have to influence how things will be in the future.
You are disrespecting the dead
you are disrespecting dead anarchists and communists by saying you need to participate in bourgeois virtue signaling instead of direct action for your fellows
- Who said "instead of"?
One of the things I've found as someone who has moves between countries and continents is how different your exposure to news and issues is. I am not a fan of out of country voters and in this case I doubt they will make a difference, and there are plenty of them, retirees, who will just follow what Fox News tells them because they are the international propaganda arm that appeals to expats that are within a retirement bubble where they are not even directly affected by their vote.
But everyone in the US should be campaigning in the streets, putting out bulletins of how corrupt Trump is and how it was an issue before he even ran for president, and how corrupt he has continued to be and influenced by internal interests intent on weakening the US. If there are no ready to print bulletins, make them and post them for others to print and distribute. Specially in the Southern states, show how much of one of those big fancy snake oil salesman from the North he really is and just how much he has been fooling everyone. Tell them not to rely on those who are bought into the Trump diatribes so that lobbyists can get politicians on the tab, because they are really only interested in making products out of them for the next for years. Remind them of how 2020 ended up and what followed, how Trump's dissing and dismissal of the WHO had consequences, and how it was only after he was removed that actions were taken to avoid getting the US stuck in the same rut China still is. Tell them how just as he dismissed WHO, he will cause a disaster with NATO, an organization commanded and empowering the US, and how a Trump win will lead to a complete loss of US power to foreign invaders already setting their sights on US soil in Alaska.
Recognize their political inclinations and points out how even well-respected representatives like Mitt Romney have been driven out of their party by charlatans, and if they are ok with it, that they should see themselves in the mirror and how they've changed since 2012. I know this is tough, but the long lost art of critical thought involves seeing and appealing to things from their perspective even when you might disagree with them yet are far better than an orange authoritarian clown. Don't campaign for Biden if you are that really disillusioned with him, campaign against Trump and for the Trump alternatives that would have appealed to the voters and would have been candidates but no longer are capable of being because of how much his snake oil has rotted the party.
And I guess people from outside the US as well, since their bubbles will certainly by trying to get them to. Unless you want to vote for Trump, then your vote has already been preregistered so those nasty Dems don't fake them, don't worry about it :)

That is only true in the undemocratic 2 party system of the US.

In places where they actually have multiple parties, say 10 or so at least. It is hard to not find a party that you like more than the others.

So if someone doesn't vote, it means none of the parties are good enough. Otherwise they would vote blank. And if too many people do not vote, it sends a clear signal to the government that they need to change something fast in order to prevent an uprising.

We need ranked choice voting. First past the post virtually guarantees a two party system.
- Ranked choice voting is just a primary with fewer steps. Caucuses are already essentially ranked choice.
  Ranked choice gives you the most moderate candidate and weeds out the others. Or, gives you the most charismatic demagogue. Notably, Joe Biden and Donald Trump check those boxes.
- We need STAR voting more. Ranked choice voting is only marginally better than first past the post.
There it's indistinguishable from being uninterested in politics. And politicians have no incentives to cater to those that seem unlikely to vote. Null and blank votes are better at showing disaproval of the system, and at making politicians rethink their strategies
- I was gonna mention this: You don’t have to vote for anyone, and you can just lie after you leave the ballot blank.

Whilst I'm not in US with it's Power Duopoly system, were I've lived I've always made a point of voting in the elections I can vote, and if none of the options appeals to me, I just vote blank.

Abstention out of principle does get mixed with abstention out of laziness, out of disconnect from politics or simply because of not being able to go vote, but a blank vote is a statement of "I did go to the trouble of going to vote just to register my dissatisfaction with all available options".

I've also been on the other side (manning a voting place) and I don't recommend spoiling your vote (if voting with a paper ballot) as whilst the people talling the votes will indeed see your beautiful artistic depiction of male genitalia or read your strongly worded message of disgust with the selection of candidates available, it won't go beyond them as in the tally it just gets mixed with people that incorrectly filled-in the ballot (such as multiple marks, marks significantly outside the box or, in the US, hanging chads).

I agree with your stance, but would take it a step further.
If one refuses to participate, rather than being unable to for what ever reason (we do realize that voter supression happens and that alone is a complicated subject that im not going to dig into for this hot take), one gives up the right to complain about politics until the next election cycle. Showing up and turning in a blank ballot is a valid protest, being loud from the side lines without putting in a minimum of effort is not.
Although in the US where its been "the lesser of two evils" for my entire life, a blank ballot is statistically in support of the greater evil.
- I think that if there is one thing the US' political system shows is that you're still supporting great evil, just at a strategical level rather than a more inmediate tactical one: if all a politician needs to gain power is to be perceived as less evil that the other one they have way more room for evilness (pretty much all the way up to were the other one sits in that scale) than they would if they had to convince voters by the quality of their own actions.
  As we're seing, over multiple electoral cycles the result of this is that, as one side pulls further and further into "complete total nutter" levels, the other side also becomes more and more so, just not quite as much: one side is still less evil that the other but both are more evil than their predecessors something which would never happenned if people refuse to votde for any evil.
  This is how for example we ended up with Reaganism adopted by both parties in the US (hence they both only really represent the upper classes when it comes to things like Quality of Life and Economics) and the situation now with Biden supporting Genocide and unwilling to roll that support back (which, if you think about it, would be the only way he could get a significant fraction of votes in a system were people voted for good rather than accept evil "as long as its lesser") - with people voting like that politicians don't need to be good, much less better than before, they only need to a tiny bit better than "the other guy", so they keep getting worse (hence how Democrats are now active supporters of Genocide)
  By voting evil with merelly a moving reference (the greater evil) as constraint, you're enabling evil to grow, and that's exactly what you've gotten in the US over the last 4 decades were Quality Of Live has gotten worse and worse for the majority, Social Mobility has gone down a cliff (and is now worse than most of Europe, when it used to be better) culminating with the current "choice" between 2 candidates who both support a nation led by openly racist Fascists who are active commiting a Genocide.
  Choose evil, Get evil - even if you salve your conscience by saying "yeah, but it could've been worse" (which, funilly enough, is a common cope of the submissive and the mediocre).
  Forgive me the crudness but from were I'm standing it looks a lot like Biden is treating a significant fraction of the electorate as his bitches: cowed into keeping on coming back no matter what he does "because it could be worse", with even some bitches activelly convincing the other bitches not to leave.
If possible I prefer voting for a small party / candidate even if they have no chance at winning. That way it actually takes away votes from the big options, while blanks are just ignored in the reported results. At least that's how it works here, the first thing ignored are the non-voters, next invalid / blank votes, and the only thing that matters and gets reported on are valid votes.
- I think blank votes are ignored because there are so few of them.
  If an election is getting 10 or 20% blank votes, that's hard to ignore because it means a huge fraction of actually engaged and active voters - who could've just as easilly put a cross somewhere - aren't being served.
  Amongst other things it tells existing parties that "my vote is here for the taking".

you realize this is talking about not voting in a PRIMARY, for a nomination he can't lose, right? tlaib is not suggesting that they don't vote in the general for biden. she is saying write uncommitted in the PRIMARY. personally I don't think that will pressure them enough. a large number of people denying biden a vote in the general might make them get the picture though.

Yeah, it's absolutely ridiculous how easily people just accepted that primaries are just a joke, that the DNC can hold them when they want to and just decide on their own when they don't. Telling people to vote for Biden now, when he is not yet by any stretch an official candidate, is to forfeit a democratic right. They openly say they're ready to rubber-stamp a decision of party oligarchs.
- lmao anyone would be so much better than biden in the dem seat
- "People" don't even have a basic understanding of how our elections or government works. Anyone that refuses to vote in the primaries has absolutely no right to bitch about what candidates are "picked".
  The comments after the 2016 Democratic party primary was equally hilarious and depressing. Hearing "the election was stolen from Bernie!!!!!11111" from people that didn't vote in the primary was obnoxious, and the dumb-asses expected me to agree with them. "No, you moron: he lost the primary. He lost because lazy fucks like you couldn't take 30 minutes out of your day to go vote for him."
  Of the dozen Sanders supporters I knew at the time 3 of us actually went out and cast a ballot for him.
- The DNC definitely heavily sways the outcome of the primaries. They use their superdelegates as a cudgel to fool people into thinking any other candidate has no chance of winning, then they use the media to repeatedly report how far ahead their chosen candidate is (including supers). Idk why most people are afraid to vote for someone who's behind in the polls during a primary, but they are. Apparently the average person wants very badly to be on the winning team. I saw this first hand when I was a delegate for Sanders in 2016.

Low turnout doesn’t change their minds it makes them think they need to either go further to the center or that Americans are too lazy

Low turnout consistently favors republicans, that's why they do all they can to make it harder to vote, not going out to vote is basically for the republicans, who are at this point, basically a Fascist party.
- ~~basically~~ Literally a Fascist party.
The Democrats go further to the center no matter what, but they only win when they run to the left. Obama ran as a radical leftist that was going to deliver universal healthcare and hold the banks accountable, but jettisoned that as quick as he could. The truth is they just want to be in the center, and they'll justify it no matter the turnout or outcome of the election.
- Obama ran as a radical leftist
  Do we live in the same reality?
- He didn't jettison his healthcare plans, he was railroaded by an uncooperative Congress. The fact that he was able to get the ACA passed, even as neutered as it is, is nothing short of miraculous compared to the relative lack of delivery of even a single campaign promise by any president in recent history.
- Anything that's not fascism is running to the left now.
- What more should Obama have done on the front of universal healthcare than to draft a universal healthcare plan and try to get Congress to pass it? Which is what he did. They didn’t have the votes and the president doesn’t write laws. They got healthcare reform as far as they could with a few asshole Democrats and a totally stonewalling GOP. Also how is that platform radically leftist

In France you can vote "blank" which is counted separately to absentees.

That's just stupid with extra steps...
- Nope, because of the argument screenshotted by OP. How do you fail so hard at reading?

The problem with guaranteeing your vote is that politicians take your vote for granted. They also take it as approval of their policies (like, you know, genocide).

They don't. No vote is taken for granted. We know this because every campaign has to do GOTV every election. If you ever worked a campaign you know that voters leaning your direction are very frustrating because they will agree with everything you say and then just not show up to vote.
People protest to make themselves feel better. If you lean left you can just call up Democrats in Congress and tell them how you feel. They will listen.
- Fix your party in the primaries. Support it during the general.
- just call up Democrats in Congress and tell them how you feel. They will listen.
  yea the voicemail listened so well and didn't interrupt me at all, except to tell me that there is no more room for messages.
- People protest to make themselves feel better
  right, cause the stonewall riots didn't catalyze the dying lgbtq+ movement that was originally only made up of white gay cis men "calling democrats" and trying to be respectable. sure thing bud
I believe the middle ground is to vote a spoiled ballot. Which is to say, vote but leave the entry for the slots with no good candidate blank. Your participation is registered. Your approval of individual candidates is withheld. The message is loud and clear.
However this primarily works in systems where the elections are already fair and equitable, and it is simply a subset of candidates who suck.
The fundamental problem with the US electoral system - particularly wrt the electoral college - is that volume of participation doesn't really matter. I can vote for Trump. I can vote for Biden. I can vote Third Party. I can leave it blank. I can not-vote. Trump is still going to carry my state of Texas, guaranteed.
My support for the winner of the electoral delegates is implicit in residency, it is not a function of my participation at the ballot.
- Volume does matter, though. It enough people vote blue in Texas districts, the result goes the other way and overwhelming turnout can even defeat the bias of gerrymandering.
  With the EC, the number of votes in any district boils down into just the winner of that district, which I think is what you're saying, but it doesn't negate the activity behind it. Granted, this simplification is problematic still because districts are not the same and it ignores relative district sizes. Votes still matter because we don't know what will actually happen in each race.
  Texas is historically a pretty conservative state demographically, so it would not be a surprise for Trump to win there. That's democracy working as it should (despite flaws) to represent as many people as it can. Democracy needs people to participate and give a coordinated equal push towards our goals, and we might be surprised by how different the results could be if we all believed in it and worked together.
What's the alternative? Not voting so others will decide for you. Even if you don't like both candidates, you probably hate one more than the other.
The point of guaranteeing your vote in the general election is to make yourself and your interest group an invaluable base of support anyone in the party will need to succeed in a general election. Once the party has been made dependent on your group, you can pressure them via primaries, running and voting for your own candidates, making yourself and your interest group an invaluable base of support to win in a primary election.
We've actually seen this happen in real-time with MAGA, which has virtually taken over the GOP. They vote red in every general election, participate in every primary, and as a result are vastly overrepresented in the GOP. The difference of course, is they're reactionary authoritarian nationalist, and we're not.
This isn't specific to MAGA, they're only special because we've been able to watch their take over of the party, and now slowly burn it down with incompetence and unpopular policy. These changes have happened to both parties in the past, many times, and in parties all over the world.

Damn, they should really have thought about that when picking their nominees

It is however easier to explain to people that those in power do not have popular support if there are less people that voted for them. I am not saying it is a good idea, but I am trying to say that this goes both ways. As some user previously said, voting for lesser of two evils and voting for absolute support is also indistinguishable.

I don't really understand. Suppose democracy as we know it is dismantled and we have an autocratic supreme leader eternal... will it be helpful to "explain to people that those in power do not have popular support"
voting for lesser of two evils and voting for absolute support is also indistinguishable.
This is also a flawed premise, as though casting a vote is supposed to be an expression of your self and your personal desires on path to utopia... it's not. You're voting for which asshole you want to be POTUS. That's it. There is no lesser of two evils or tepid support or partial agreement. Do you want Chocolate, or do you want Strawberry.
- Yes, it would be helpful. People are less likely to rebel if they think majority supports the government.

No, the problem isn't not voting, it's only voting, a distinction those of you who are dedicated to doing the latter refuse to acknowledge.

It is people who look at the system and think that a tick in a box once every four years can or ever will change that system, but in actuality only maintains it, who are the ones who need to be rethinking their strategy. 🙄

Nobody refuses to acknowledge this. It comes up in every single one of these goddamn threads.
There are just too many people who are a little bit lazy and think this gives them an excuse not to show up at all. A way to feel self-justified about it: well both sides are bad, so I'll go jack off some more. Downballot? I don't know what that is because I've never seen a ballot. Because I do this every election.

Its funny bc people from usa thinks this is smart

so that your intent is 100% clear.
And worthless.
I really wish election day was a holiday and voting was mandatory.
Could vote "none of the above" but had to hand in a ballot.
The Wavy Gravy Plan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobody_for_President
as is spoiling your ballot paper
Could you elaborate?
- Intentionally filling out the ballot incorrectly which results in it being thrown out.
Here (the Netherlands) you can simply turn in a unmarked ballot and it will be counted as a blank vote.

When your choices in an election are between "boring corporatists" and "100% concentrated evil" you don't have the luxury of sitting this election out with your adorable little "protest vote."

If authoritarians win the next election, you won't have to worry about voting ever again.

Let it burn.

you should be able to vote :

anytime
for anyone in the country that have full citizen rights
electronically - privately using your private key signed and acknowledged by gov
over whole period you can change your vote anytime
counting votes and reset should be every 4 - 5 years depending on terms
before counting votes everyone should get notification one month, one week, one day before and only if you didn't vote hour, 15 minutes before counting
if you didn't vote your voting account should be disabled and removed from pool until you pay the fine to bring it back.

that's all, let's bring the voting to 21st century lol

This is inconsistent with the preservation of democracy, as it allows a third party to confirm exactly who you voted for, and reimburse or punish you for it.
Mainly you'll have to tweak point 3, to use existing E2E.verified voting approaches which are only tangentially related to asymmetric encryption (and private keys).
We might use asymmetric encryption and private keys for some parts of identity verification, but you wouldn't sign your ballot with it.
- This is just the problem between the chair and keyboard how to implement the rest of encryption to enforce anonymity of the vote.
  My point was that you can't do symetric key efficiently when you don't have assymetric key confirmed by both parties.
  I agree that for example you can vote anonymously just by using dedicated software on your computer that will identify you and then sign and encrypt payload that you can send anonymously from wherever you want - even from the moon. Just make sure we don't include any metadata in signed and encrypted file.
  And actually I am missing point 8
  All software dedicated to this process must be open source
Point 7 is straight-up an unconstitutional poll tax. So is putting the key on the drivers license as another person commented unless we're giving them to people for free without requiring a drivers test...at that point it basically stops being a drivers license and becomes a voter id card which negates the benefit of using the drivers license to begin with.
I also don't know of any PKI implementation that provides the necessary trust services AND anonymity. Not to mention, it needs to be something even the elderly, disabled, poor, and technically challenged need to be able to access as well. Good luck walking grandma through OCSP. We haven't been able to secure our current CAs well enough, and a distributed system would be too open to fraudulent key issuance. I'd love the personal convenience if there were a digital OPTION for voting, but I can't say I'd inherently trust the system, which is a pretty big deal. Honestly, I think the current system works as well as any other I can imagine WHEN IT IS ADMINISTERED IN GOOD FAITH. A combo of in-person, mail-in, and ballot-drop boxes with a generous early voting window. When we start shutting down polling places, closing drop boxes, requiring missing work to vote on a weekday when lines can be 8-12 hours long or tying voting to an ID that isn't equitably available are the problems.
Sauce: I'm a software engineer, and I've been a poll worker for the last several years.
I'm with you almost 100% but add mandatory enrollment, and change the fine to be if you didn't vote. Even voting none of the above across the board should count as voting though.
- Make enrollment automatic when you update your license when you turn 18, and store your key in your license with an NFC chip or something, so people don't lose it. And maybe instead of a fine, do a tax credit or some other kind of bonus if you do vote. I think this is one of those situations where the carrot works better than the stick.
  This all requires the government to be technically competent and move their technologies into the 21st century, which unfortunately means none of this will happen this century lol.
- Actually I was thinking about it if we want the post vote - "no vote you pay now", or pre vote - "If you want to vote now pay if you didn't vote last time" and I'd say maybe someone doesn't care about where he lives and how he lives. Why punish those people who don't want to make those decisions. Why punish people who are mentally disabled and are not voting. Voting should be totally optional, if you don't feel mentally responsible for voting, don't vote. And by the way voting should be difficult so you vote intentionally but also accessible so you can vote anytime you want.
I have questions.
What do you mean any time? What do you mean over the whole period and change your vote any time?
You seem to be suggesting that we'd vote for a government on (say) the 1st of May 2024, then if the 100 votes that made up the majority by which the government was elected changed their mind on the 5th of May 2024 they could cast a new vote and the government should change on the 6th of May 2024.
Now I am all for active democracy and getting people more involved (despite what I might have said about corrupt politicians and so on), but I think some sort of stability is necessary to run a country. Having a new government every two days......... that won't work.

I'm currently in a discussion on here with a user who refuses to vote. Pointing out that Biden has done nothing and rule under Democrats has yielded zero change. All I want is for us to come together, vote Biden in, and then carry that momentum into his next term. Historically, us not on the Right have been rather poor at coming together for a goal. Republicans on the other hand act like rabid dogs until some smuck tosses a week old rancid steak in a direction and they all surge forward.

Course then it's back to infighting. Fuck me if it hasn't gotten us all to the point we're at now though.

Make n"none of the above" a valid candidate. If it gets more thanx%, remove everyone, hold a new election. Rince and repeat until you get a clear winner.

If that were gonna work, third party candidates would get way more than they do, since that's effectively what voting for them is.
- The real solution is a multi-candidate system and then proportional representation. The radicals would never get in then because there isn't actually that many people who support them, but when there's only two options (or effectively only two options such as in the UK) you have to pick one or the other, or not vote. So normal people end up voting for insane mad man who shouldn't be in charge of a light switch, simply because there's no better option.
- No. Cause if they win they actually win and I'm really not sure I actually want Russian friend, or Kennedy but not really.
  A "none of the above" option that sends it back to primary or at least a debate and then new election would be vastly different.
Very few people would use this making it the exact same as refusing to vote.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobody_for_President

Maybe consider there are other alternatives to voting?

Voting, not voting, and...?
- Fuego
- Literally everything else. You turn off the TV/radio/social media and go about your life.
- "The four boxes of liberty"
Guy Fawkes had a lot of good ideas ...
And then consider why no one is currently doing them and then wonder why people think Trump winning would change that. Because it won't change.

what about voting 3rd party? To show that you do care but hate both candidates.

Does the post tell you who to vote for? No, it just says voting is better than not voting.
I don't get why people keep getting confused over this. Vote for yourself, for none of the above, or anyone else. But do vote! That's all the post is saying.

Spoil your ballot. Sends the message that they're all wankers and you get to draw a cock on the paper!

I don't think they count the cocks on the ballots either
- "That's Republican, we count those!"
  -Jack Donaghy, 30 Rock
- The number of spoiled ballots is generally counted though. The cock is just a secret joke between you and the person counting!

If you hate both candidates then vote third party.

Hear hear! Have spent my entire voting life living in NY. Ill support republican or democratic depending on candidates. However, at the poles, I vote 3rd party every fucking time for president. We dont get fucking primaries, the only election where NY went red was the fucking Reagan landslide over whatshisname who only won the districts for his hometown and congressional district. The point being, use every platform available to vote for what you believe in. We'll never see a 3rd party candidate take NY but if every ygear if that 3rd party pool gets bigger and bigger, I know it may not be much, but it means my vote is vindicated and not wasted like it would be if i just voted with the crowd or didnt vote at all.
it's about as good as voting for the fascists
In an actually working democracy without such a presidential system (e.g. in Germany), this can actually be a non-wasted vote. But...

They throw their temper tantrums, shit all over everything and then disappear after the election
Sounds like everyone we have ever voted in

The problem with voting is that you directly support a system that does absolutely nothing for you.

It's like voting for Putin. Doing it only validate the government. That's why it's mandatory to vote in these kind of dictatorships.

Now equating dictatorship with voting for someone you don't want is a stretch, but not a so large one.

That’s why voting third party is the way to send a signal that things aren’t okay.

Plus wouldn’t you rather have president Cornel West?

just vote for a third party or none of the above

If I don't agree with either candidate, I'm not voting for them, simple as that. I don't care what someone else thinks about my choice, I'm done compromising on my beliefs for old men who can't step aside.

This is equivalent to announcing you want us to completely discount your opinion. So why even mention it at all?
- Because this is a discussion about the issue of not voting? Discussion is something that this website needs more of so I try to comment on articles if I have an opinion. I don't care if you discount my opinion, I'm just not going to be shamed because of it.
I think that is totally valid and fair. I'm right there with you on disliking both upcoming US president options. One is openly trying to end our democracy and become a dictator, the other is aiding and allowing a genocide, both of which are morally reprehensible things for a leader.
That being said, until FPTP voting is removed and we get something better like Ranked Choice, then I will unfortunately continue to vote blue in the hopes that it at least keeps us from sliding into a dictatorship.
I think the best thing the people of this country could possibly do in the coming years is campaign for it and say it loudly and consistently and do anything we can to get that to happen. Just this one thing could fundamentally change this country for the better. We could stop choosing the least-worst candidates and actually use our votes to mean something. Imagine not having the 2 big parties running primaries to put 1 candidate up each that we have to choose from, but instead a whole array of both those parties and independents and all the other parties. It would go from 2 old men to dozens of people from all ages and races and backgrounds getting to speak.
What are your beliefs and how does voting for the lesser evil compromise them?
- I think Joe Biden is the stooge of a political party hell bent on delivering the status quo neoliberal policies home and abroad.
  I am sick of voting for these people. They're ghouls.

Anyone repeating Biden has the most progressive anything is either lying or has no idea what they're talking about.
He's a milquetoast neoliberal.
But people hate what neoliberals stand for, so they just lie about it. If you call them on it, they just start yelling about how Republicans are worse and insisting comparing them to anyone that's not a Republican is unamerican
All of life is delaying the inevitable. Dying is guaranteed with living, all you can do is delay it.
- What am idiotic comparison to government.
  'give up on progress, cuz you're going to die eventually anyway.'
Sure, I get you, but I don't know how we even begin to solve that when the US Republican Party have made it their mission to be staunchly antagonistic to anything that the Democrats advocate.
Take climate change policy, for example. One would think that every reputable scientist on Earth saying that our actions over the last few centuries are directly contributing to existentially damaging effects to our environment (on top of a clear and dangerous increase in natural disasters like hurricanes and wildfires) would be enough to convince every American that we need to do at least the bare minimum to reduce our impact on the climate. But clearly it's not, so why?
Because the American right (which includes the Republican Party, the right-wing media, and the global billionaire class of oil tycoons and corporate execs that funds them) has decided that they'd rather turn it into yet another issue in the "culture war" that they can use to recruit the stupidest and angriest among us to be their useful idiots.
And it's not just climate change, it's fucking everything. The left supports LGBTQ rights, the right (including people who call themselve libertarians, somehow) are against it. The Democrats want to support Ukraine against Putin's imperialism, the Republicans suddenly love Putin and don't give a fuck what happens to the people that he kills. The entirety of the American right's ideology is anti-"woke", which just happens to mean that they're just blindly against anything that the left happens to be for.
- Did a bug create this duplicate? I'm seeing three of these.
- Did a bug create this duplicate? I'm seeing three of these.

Do you voting for third party local and build that structure from the ground up. THAT will scare them.

It scared New York Democrats enough to pass new rules to restrict 3rd party ballot access. They got sued and SCOTUS refused the case.
If Democrats want people to stop saying "both sides are the same", they should stop giving people so much evidence.
Of course they downvote you. They don't care about progressive policy. They're Russian and GOP trolls trying to destabilize the election.

These all feel like freakout beatings in attempt to get the voters back from the bad polling numbers of Biden.

I'm not sure they will have the impact desired.

And what impact do people refusing to vote for Biden (in the general) hope to have?
- Almost certainly a misguided attempt to show they won't be complicit or go against their own personal morals which is pretty much all anyone has, their view of themselves.
  But I'm just saying that instead of listening to that and trying to change tactics the response being:
  "Fuck you! You are a monster. Now vote for him or we all die!"
  Probably won't work because people dig in their heels when faced with something against their own self ideology. Beatings don't work it just makes the voter base resentful and all the "nuh-uhs" in the world will change that despite people being sure their argument is sound.

Agreed. Not voting is the dumbest thing you can do in a democracy.

Every user who makes one of these "vote for the guy you warned me 4 years ago would make trump 2 inevitable" posts is getting a block.

It takes an unfathomable brass neck to see muslims resist genocide joe for years only for white liberals to swoop in every election year chanting "well the other guy wants to kill you faster" as if that makes your guy any better.

Get a fucking spine or go back to reddit.

I'm really not sure this is true, since it's basically all people talk about right now

Instructions unclear. Do I fill in "Fuck You" as a candidate write-in?

All y'all need to watch the video.

The only thing worse than not voting is voting for a third party.
Edit: against my better judgment, I refrained from adding a /s to the above comment. I don't think voting 3rd party is a lost vote at all and they've been instrumental in transforming the political conversation. I honestly don't know why I didn't include the /s.
- Uuuh, you know that Kang and Kodos both want to enslave humanity and that's the point of the episode right 🤨

This is true, and just another way our system is broken beyond repair.

It work in both ways

What if they started a way and nobody came? "The problem with not starting a war .....'

I would LOVE to find out the answer to that question. Everyone needs to stop showing up for their wars, agreed.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Seriously, try sports.

If you have something to say, just say it. This image is not communicating what you think it does. Cheers,
- Your premise is that not voting sends an unclear signal as to the like or dislike of the candidates. However you are sending a signal if you do vote. You are signalling acceptance of the system through you participation. You are signalling that you are happy to participate in mob violence. It is not about strategy. It is about morality.