Why a professor of fascism left the US: ‘The lesson of 1933 is – you get out’
Why a professor of fascism left the US: ‘The lesson of 1933 is – you get out’
Marci Shore made news around the world when her family moved to Canada. She discusses Trump, teaching history and how terror atomises society
She finds the whole idea absurd. To Prof Marci Shore, the notion that the Guardian, or anyone else, should want to interview her about the future of the US is ridiculous. She’s an academic specialising in the history and culture of eastern Europe and describes herself as a “Slavicist”, yet here she is, suddenly besieged by international journalists keen to ask about the country in which she insists she has no expertise: her own. “It’s kind of baffling,” she says.
In fact, the explanation is simple enough. Last month, Shore, together with her husband and fellow scholar of European history, Timothy Snyder, and the academic Jason Stanley, made news around the world when they announced that they were moving from Yale University in the US to the University of Toronto in Canada. It was not the move itself so much as their motive that garnered attention. As the headline of a short video op-ed the trio made for the New York Times put it, “We Study Fascism, and We’re Leaving the US”.
Starkly, Shore invoked the ultimate warning from history. “The lesson of 1933 is: you get out sooner rather than later.” She seemed to be saying that what had happened then, in Germany, could happen now, in Donald Trump’s America – and that anyone tempted to accuse her of hyperbole or alarmism was making a mistake. “My colleagues and friends, they were walking around and saying, ‘We have checks and balances. So let’s inhale, checks and balances, exhale, checks and balances.’ I thought, my God, we’re like people on the Titanic saying, ‘Our ship can’t sink. We’ve got the best ship. We’ve got the strongest ship. We’ve got the biggest ship.’ And what you know as a historian is that there is no such thing as a ship that can’t sink.”
That's a shit lesson to take from 33. My takeaway is don't let the brown shirts win. I'm not running from my country with my tail between my legs.
Fascists can fuck off, in fact
707 millions just assembled to say just that.Edit: I didn't think staying in my country of birth and fighting for freedom and decency would be such a hot button issue.
To all of you who felt the need to be condescending I'd just say tighten up and show some backbone. Real disappointing. So you may be shot and sent to a gulag. You wouldn't be the first, probably not the last. Try not to let fear and righteousness dictate your feelings.
If you read the rest of the article, she addresses that. She doesn't believe that she is personally brave enough to physically confront what is coming, so for her, the choice is get out now while she can and be vocal.
Not sure where your getting that 70 million number, but according to Wikipedia it was some 5 million.
Not to criticize, but I think it’s important not to spread inaccuracies and over inflate turnout numbers like a certain someone likes to do.
Edit: Lemmy post with final count numbers on attendance. Looks like it’s a bit larger than initially thought, which is fantastic!
The brown shirts have the keys to the kingdom, and so there's no easy way to get rid of them. By my count they've already won, and will be able to do a depressing amount of damage before anyone could hope to stop them. If you're a vulnerable group who has the opportunity to leave and isn't ready to die fighting, leaving is the safest bet.
The Nazis did eventually lose, but look what it took to do it. Millions of people died on both sides. The best defense is to not allow them any power, but they already control the most powerful military in the history of the world.
At this point, leaving is a credible option, if you have it. Unfortunately, unless you are wealthy, have a large business, or are incredibly intelligent in a field they want, most of us won't be welcome any where else.
I’m not running from my country with my tail between my legs.
That sounds cool if your objective is to collect likes on social media. However, her objective is to save herself and her family from what’s coming. As "an academic specialising in the history and culture of eastern Europe," she knows very well what it is. Only an ignorant and arrogant prick could say what you said.
I mean that's certainly fair, but with the vast majority of America either supporting the fascists or dragging its feet (cue "we can't give them an excuse to do a fascism!!!!") "fuck this shit I'm outta here" is, honestly, pretty valid.
But going peacefully on the streets is only successful if the government you want to send a message to is listening, i.e. if it either cares for their citizens or is in any way rational.
I hope I'm wrong here, but I can't see anything changing for the better in your country. It currently looks like 70 million people trying to talk through a knife fight.
From the numbers that I have seen spread through social media, they were saying 12.1 million people showed up for the No King protest.
Your usage of “70 million” is a cope just like her “checks and balances”. There was nowhere near that amount of people. Not even 10 million. The protests were largely cancelled because of the political assassination.
I looked for photos of protests and the ones I saw did not have anywhere near these amounts of people. A few hundred to a couple thousand at any one city. America is very okay with fascism.
You're correct that 70 million is a large overstatement, but wrong about the rest
https://www.yahoo.com/news/no-kings-biggest-protest-u-172552711.html
Bullshit. Only Minnesota cancelled protests during the manhunt for the conservative political assassin and tens of thousands showed up in the Minnesota capital anyway. And in other Minnesota cities and villages as well. Estimates range from 25,000 to 80,000 depending on the source. And it had no effect at all on anywhere else in the country. In Salt Lake City Utah an innocent protestor was killed by security shooting at a different man who they say had grabbed a gun and headed towards protesters and still 10,000 people marched there, in one of the most Republican states in the Union.
Seventy million is probably an exaggeration but your numbers are contradicted with thousands of news pictures taken from marches big and small across the country. And many more didn't even make the news, like the one at the VA Center in West Los Angeles where I saw men waving a huge California flag and a banner saying SEMPER FI TO THE CONSTITUTION! DUMP TRUMP! as all the cars across 6 lanes of traffic honked in support.
Must be nice to be financially stable enough to run away.
An academic who's job is is to know these things is spending the money to do it. That's the take away here. They're the Canary in the Coal Mine.
yeah, you got the same vibe from the political professors that Jon Stewart had on his podcast last week. Just depressed and resigned.
All the ways to escape that didn't require lots of money are all long gone
I think about this a lot. My mother's side immigrated from Europe to the US five generations ago.
They were just teenagers who got on a boat. I don't know what that cost, but they only had to sign in at ellis island. People back then didn't even have to use their real name if they didnt want to, there was no court, or lawyers or anything. You just signed in at the door.
Today, is nothing like that.
How did you get financially trapped?
People in the rest of the western world and also mostly elsewhere in the entire world can actually travel.
What do you have to lose if you can't walk away from where you are? You already lost your freedom and can no longer go anywhere else, because finances? In the richest country in the world?
If I ever find myself in that kind of serfdom without a dime in my pocket, I will put on my shoes and start walking.
Most people are just born into it
This is such a boomer answer
Most people who run from their country are all but financially stable.
She did her part by educating us and it's obvious she'll be among the first to be targeted. It only makes sense that she should flee.
I, for one, am grateful that she spoke the truth in that NYT opinion piece.
Right? I don’t get people here mocking her for leaving. The first people to be removed or “disappeared” in fascists states are the bogeymen “others” - the foreigners, the ones that are easy targets and can’t fight back. The next ones are the obvious liberal dissenters. First the regular people, the scientists and liberal teachers, the students, then the liberal politicians. The smart people are always targeted.
I don't blame people for running, but personally I've always found that Fighting Fascism is a Fine Hill to Die On.
To be honest, I'd be perfectly willing to die on much smaller, less impactful hills. Some days I feel like dying in a valley, far away from anything, but then I see some real bullshit going on and get mightily pissed off.
What I'm saying is, dying isn't the worst thing you can do in life.
Suits me fine too.
As others have already commented, not everyone can just leave. Also, if we could all leave, who would take so many USA immigrants?
Honestly there's enough place in places like Guyana and Suriname for you guys
Yeah, it's not like Guyana and Suriname are countries with their own immigration laws, that their inhabitants expect to be enforced. They're always ready to accept anyone from a western country that needs a spot to lay low for a couple of years. The same way the US always opened up and welcomed the Guyanese and Surinamese with open arms.
"I'm affluent with the privilege & means to escape when I know it's going to go bad &, trust me, it's going to get bad.
Anyways, good luck, suckers!"
She's using her position to educate, raise awareness, and validate the alarm several people are feeling. This is possibly the most impactful thing she can do at the moment. She is standing up and pointing out fascism. I guess she could stay after having done that, but then you get people going "if it's so bad then why don't you leave?!" And then she's at even more risk of being disappeared. She is uprooting her family and life and in the process displaying how sincerely she believes that we're headed down the wrong path. Is she doing it for her own benefit, yea, sure, but this article imho is more impactful than her going to a protest. I've sent it to some of my more normie friends already because we were just talking about this and they really don't realize how bad things are already. They think I'm fear mongering. This article might help people realize what the reality is and take direct action that they didn't think was necessary at this point. Is it cowardly to leave? Maybe. But she didn't have to speak out, she could have left quietly, but she chose to make a statement. That's more than a lot of people will end up doing, regardless of if they stay or not.
Why would you want to do something useful or productive when you could be making sarcastic posts on social media instead?
Not everyone has the option but those who do and are at risk and know they can't bring upon any positive change by staying, should leave.
Yeah. My sister's spouse is NB and they have significant means. I encourage them to leave with my nephew because I want them all safe.
I'm a white, male, Christian gun-owner. I can blend in for now and don't have the same financial resources. I'm also single and childless, so I can also care for my parents who are blind to what's happening.
When all the ones who are disgusted leave, you are left with only those who are disgusting. Not my words but somehow they apply again.
My colleagues and friends, they were walking around and saying, ‘We have checks and balances. So let’s inhale, checks and balances, exhale, checks and balances.’
Er, no, America, you don't have checks and balances. Not any more. Have you not been paying attention? That stuff is GONE.
Um, that's exactly what she was saying.
Yes.
Why would she flee to Canada? If she knows what happened in 1930s Germany then she knows what happened to their neighbours a few years later, right?
Suppose she can keep running
Cries in Canadian lol
I have been telling people.... Run. Now. If you can't, make sure you are set up to run at a moment's notice. Money, passport , whatever is needed
IN WW22 Germany the only ones who survived... Got out at the beginning
I left, but am completely dependent on my US Social Security retirement, which I paid into my whole working life. What if the fascists shut it down? 72 year old homeless wandering the world?
I also left, absolutely no regrets. The US was holding me back and it was dangerous for me to live there. But I still tear up every time I think about the community I left behind
Problem is, Canada has strict immigration laws, so I assume she 1. used her prestigious degrees and CN accepted her immigration immediately for a teaching job or 2. she is there illegally for the next 5 years (I think that is how long it takes there.) Illegally means no health coverage, jobs that pay cash only, etc. It is easy to cross the borders, it is another thing entirely when you need to find work.
What? No. That's a gross oversimplification. You're welcome to learn more :
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/immigrate-canada.html
Did you actually read the requirements or just post the CN immigration site? The "Express Program" which is the only fast track, 3yrs instead of 5yrs of a path to citizenship, requires either a job offer to higher education requirements, such as a BA, to qualify, or as they put it gain more points (it is a point system.) A lot of people will not qualify for this. Again, legally immigrating is not easy.
Albert Einstein left Germany too. However, I have heard it was more about money and the fucking Nazis were the number 2 reason.
Einstein was fucking Nazis?
Rule 34.
fr got not one good 1%er down to make a progessive tech oriented country (by thay I mean not held back by religion, working for society and everyone inside's benefit) ppl expect langauge models owned by the government to give us that lol
I wish everyone who posted youtube links would say what they were linking to.
