evergreen meme

See: Emmanuel Macron. Liberals would rather ally with nazis than leftists

Didn't Ensemble ally with the left to defeat RN?

Liberalism has been a weird one to try and tackle in the US today, at least in my friends circle. I’m a leftist through and through, but have friends that still fall into the liberal bucket. But they have absolutely no desire to compromise with fascism, and they have the same criticisms of capitalism and the current market as myself. Despite this, they still sometimes take offense to my criticisms of liberals and still feel some sort of ownership over it. So I think as times progress onward, it’s going to get harder and harder to define it, especially with how the US has clouded all of these terms.

That said, there’s still a shitload of liberals in the US that think we can simply vote these problems away and basically do nothing else. They aren’t willing to get their hands dirty if it comes down to it and will instead do whatever they can to fly under the radar and put on blinders. They fail to realize that the Democratic Party is the other side of the same fascist coin.

But they have absolutely no desire to compromise with fascism, and they have the same criticisms of capitalism and the current market as myself.
This is pretty much the default stance for most people, I believe. The issue, is that without deprogramming the Anticommunist Red Scare Propaganda, and without reading Leftist Theory, this is the endpoint of this position, essentially doomerism.
That said, there’s still a shitload of liberals in the US that think we can simply vote these problems away and basically do nothing else. They aren’t willing to get their hands dirty if it comes down to it and will instead do whatever they can to fly under the radar and put on blinders. They fail to realize that the Democratic Party is the other side of the same fascist coin.
This is why it's important for Leftists to constantly agitate, organize, and spread theory. Electoralism is a doomed game, organizing is what's important.
- I’m gonna start recommending Combat Liberalism to them.
That said, there’s still a shitload of liberals in the US that think we can simply vote these problems away and basically do nothing else. They aren’t willing to get their hands dirty if it comes down to it and will instead do whatever they can to fly under the radar and put on blinders. They fail to realize that the Democratic Party is the other side of the same fascist coin.
If you are from US, then thank you. For me (observing from another side of the pond) it seemed that everyone saying "kill the other side" is not healthy. Thanks for another confirmation that not everyone thinks so.
- A unified working class helps everyone.

Scratch a liberal, and a fascist bleeds.

Or, because liberals care more about preserving their increasing property and stocks values and thus willing to bed with the devil, than preserve democracy.

Yes, that's why liberals have historically worked with fascists against Leftists.
- Unfortunately you're correct. We see this happening all over again.

Yeah, ok, but I'm still voting for Isildur in November. He may not be perfect, but he's better than Sauron. Besides, who else am I going to put my faith in? A bunch of stupid hobbits? Get real.

- But heck, I’ll vote for whoever’s chosen at the entmoot.
  Settle in. We won't be finished reading all the names until at least December.
- The rumor mill is saying he'll announce his bowing out this weekend, and if that source is true he's also not just pushing for Kamela (which I think is big, I expected he would but I don't think she stands a chance in hell)
Are you really trying to meme in a 3rd party candidate push? Really?

I’m so fucked up by all of this. I don’t know what anything means anymore and depending on who I’m talking to, I’m either a faithless child-diddling monster, or I’m a genocide-supporting class traitor.

And like. I’d consider myself a far left liberal, in the sense of how the U.S. defined liberal when I learned the terms, where it was more a place on the political spectrum, rather than a codified set of ideas.
Right to left, I’d define the that spectrum as Reactionary (Alt-right), conservative, centrist, liberal, and revolutionary (leftist, I think?). I know that those terms have different meanings in other countries.
I’d consider the Republican Party to currently be between conservative and alt-right, with the Democratic Party being centrist with liberal window dressing.

I think the U.S. political system is fucked. It was never intended to accommodate political parties, let alone the nearly 250 years of maneuvering by capitalists to slip reigns onto the government, which now appears to have fully succeeded. I believe that the embrace of fascism by the Republican Party is a means to control the ~60% of people who are left of center and without cohesive political representation because of limitations of the U.S. political system/bastardization of it/the pernicious influence of capitalism.

I don’t support the Democratic Party, nor do I really feel the U.S. government is in a place to fix itself without some foundational things changing. I don’t think, realistically, that those things can be changed without mass engagement and effort, which… sigh. I’m doing what I can.

But also, I don’t believe a revolt or some form of dramatic U.S. government reformation is possible. As a result, the folks that are already demanding change and have given up hope for reforming the system are hostile to me, and the other folks fall into the camp of being disengaged/only mildly upset or even desirous of a slide into fascism. It feels like there isn’t really enough people who are unified who want to change course without throwing the whole thing out.
I honestly feel kind of alone.

I’m not trying to challenge or debate anyone here. I don’t think you’re stupid, nor do I think the ideals are bad. I fucking wish society was more altruistic and smarter.
I just… don’t see any realistic or actionable outcome other than to keep fighting for every inch using the tools we have, even if they are faulty, entrenched systems.
Call me propagandized, unimaginative, cynical or stupid, or… whatever, I guess. I just don’t see other viable options, and I think broadcasting moral superiority, embracing divisiveness and exhibiting hostility is going to create roadblocks, should we need to unite. If we can.

And like. I’d consider myself a far left liberal, in the sense of how the U.S. defined liberal when I learned the terms, where it was more a place on the political spectrum, rather than a codified set of ideas.
The funny thing is, the US defined liberal is the codified set of ideas, liberalism is just to the left of the median in America. America is that far-right.
Right to left, I’d define the that spectrum as Reactionary (Alt-right), conservative, centrist, liberal, and revolutionary (leftist, I think?). I know that those terms have different meanings in other countries.
The problem is that you jump straight from Liberal to Revolutionary, there's a spectrum of thought among leftists. Revolution may be correct, but there are schools of reformist thought as well. Additionally, liberals and all those to the right of them are Reactionary, just in varying degrees. A "centrist" would be left of liberalism, ie a Social Democrat or Market Socialist.
I’d consider the Republican Party to currently be between conservative and alt-right, with the Democratic Party being centrist with liberal window dressing.
The Democrats are Neoliberal, there's no set dressing. Liberalism is just right-wing. Conservatives are far-right populists, ie fascists in some cases.
I think the U.S. political system is fucked. It was never intended to accommodate political parties, let alone the nearly 250 years of maneuvering by capitalists to slip reigns onto the government, which now appears to have fully succeeded.
On the contrary, the US was designed by wealthy Capitalists to benefit themselves. The system is working as intended, protecting Capitalists.
I believe that the embrace of fascism by the Republican Party is a means to control the ~60% of people who are left of center and without cohesive political representation because of limitations of the U.S. political system/bastardization of it/the pernicious influence of capitalism.
Fascism is a class-colaborative alliance between the bourgeoisie and petite bourgeoisie against the proletariat and lumpenproletariat along nationalist lines to attempt to forcibly return to a less-decayed state of Capitalism.
I don’t support the Democratic Party, nor do I really feel the U.S. government is in a place to fix itself without some foundational things changing. I don’t think, realistically, that those things can be changed without mass engagement and effort, which… sigh. I’m doing what I can.
Correct. Join an org!
But also, I don’t believe a revolt or some form of dramatic U.S. government reformation is possible. As a result, the folks that are already demanding change and have given up hope for reforming the system are hostile to me, and the other folks fall into the camp of being disengaged/only mildly upset or even desirous of a slide into fascism. It feels like there isn’t really enough people who are unified who want to change course without throwing the whole thing out.
I honestly feel kind of alone.
Reform cannot work, Revolution is the only way. Build up dual power, organize, and try to build up parallel structures. Organize!
What happens if the U.S. does elect Trump and it swings full fascism?
Beating Trump won't stop the conditions for fascism, only Leftism can. Fascism can only be kicked down the road, until the ratchet effect takes us there anyways, unless Leftists organize.
I’m not trying to challenge or debate anyone here. I don’t think you’re stupid, nor do I think the ideals are bad. I fucking wish society was more altruistic and smarter.
I just… don’t see any realistic or actionable outcome other than to keep fighting for every inch using the tools we have, even if they are faulty, entrenched systems.
Call me propagandized, unimaginative, cynical or stupid, or… whatever, I guess. I just don’t see other viable options, and I think broadcasting moral superiority, embracing divisiveness and exhibiting hostility is going to create roadblocks, should we need to unite. If we can.
You've got the core of it, but not the theory. Try reading Leftist theory! Whether it be Marxist or Anarchist, leftists have been attempting to fix the system and are growing in power.
- I’ve said this to you previously, but - I appreciate you.
  When I find the ability to tame my ADHD and time constraints a bit more than current, I’ll work on digging into The State and Revolution - because you are kind, and you are thoughtful.
- Because every proletariat revolution has resulted in equality and not a speed run to mass poverty... Why would it work this time? When has it ever worked in reality? Where's the beautiful shining example of Marxist success?
  Let's copy that now. (I can't find an example of it).
  When do you realize revolution is an acceleration of entropy in society.
  You're proposing to bloodlet society and end up with less for the people, and more for the rich.
Funny how you say people voicing support for revolution have given up hope. That's literally the most hopeful wish I can think of. Liberals resigned to a system that ... systemically ... rejects any real structural change may have hope, but with very limited scope of imagination, and disregarding a lot of the structural harm.
In 2019 I realized America was going fascist and there was nothing to stop it. So, I’m with you. I don’t give up hope though, because I don’t want to be bitter.
I have no idea what any of these terms mean anymore. For a long time, I thought Liberal was just everything left of center and leftist was just synonymous with Liberal. It's too fucking confusing.
Right wingers are way better about ignoring their differences and I suspect much of the granular nature of left wingers right now may be a "divide and conquer" tactic by bad actors.
- Liberal only means "left of center" in places where Liberalism, the ideology, is left of that location's median. Ie, in America, Liberalism can be considered left, despite Liberalism as an ideology being right-wing, in favor of Capitalism.
  Leftism refers to Socialism, ie Anarchism or Marxism. Liberals are not in that spectrum, it isn't "divide and conquer," liberals have historically sided with fascists against leftists, because liberalism and fascism are uncomfortably close.
I think the big thing is to not demean the people who are calling for bigger measures. Plenty of us appreciate that gradual sustainable reform where life goes on and everyone keeps going to work then going home would be super cool, but dont think its possible. I don't really see people get confronted for wanting to try reform, its when reform types tell more revolutionary folk that they're "just as bad" for not wanting to roll over for something thats increasingly imminent.
You seem like a fine, thoughtful person. Thats great, we need that. Just understand we also need people who are preparing for and discussing what comes next if reform doesn't work.
How can the world become more altruistic and smarter when the hard right is actively destroying our public education system and right wing media causes stochastic terrorism with zero accountability?
Humanity isn't getting better. We are seeing the final results of secularization, the end goal of a godless world where all that was once sacred are now open season for mockery and destruction. And even worse is that so much of the left is actively to blame for this.
None of you will get it, you will just blanket downvote because you cannot grasp that religion has a necessary place in human culture and the social chaos we have now is partially caused by the mockery of an institution that has literally held together human society for more than two and a half thousand years of human history.
- The stuff in your first paragraph is being done by religious people. Hard right=religious... Religion hasn't "held together human society", it stopped human progress in is tracks for more than 2 thousand years, and continues to fight to destroy any progress we've been able to achieve.
Fascism is like the rising ocean. Imagine all the "brown people" near the shores and the white people at The high ground. You know out group versus in group.
The rise in fascism is causing the ocean level to rise drowning the people who are closest to the shore. This is analogous to people dying to political nonsense that otherwise wouldn't.
If Trump gets elected. The ocean rises faster. In the next 4 years we'll see a lot more people. Drowned.
If Biden gets elected the ocean still rises but it rises slower than with Trump. People still die, but less people die.
From a defeating fascist perspective. A slower rising ocean means more time to organize and spread information.
Also, politics is both the hardest thing and the easiest thing to understand. I consider myself a pretty intelligent person and it still took me awhile to really understand what was going on and I needed help. It's crazy! It's like everyone is playing chess on the same board. Some people are making basic moves. Some people are just pawns. Only a few people are playing 5D chess and mopping up the field.
Right to left, I’d define the that spectrum as Reactionary (Alt-right), conservative, centrist, liberal, and revolutionary (leftist, I think?).
You are mixing desire of change(conservative vs reformist) with relations of policy and economy(socialism vs capitalism).
I’d consider the Republican Party to currently be between conservative and alt-right, with the Democratic Party being centrist with liberal window dressing.
You call them centrist, I call them center-right at best. It looks more right-wing than LDPR(former LDPSS, first right-wing party in USSR) or Russia of the Future(Navalny's party, center-right).
But also, I don’t believe a revolt or some form of dramatic U.S. government reformation is possible.
Yeah, it's 21st century. I don't see it happening.
I fucking wish society was more altruistic and smarter.
Smart society needs members of that society to be smart. Which means they need to attend school regardless of having a farm.
I just… don’t see any realistic or actionable outcome other than to keep fighting for every inch using the tools we have, even if they are faulty, entrenched systems. Call me propagandized, unimaginative, cynical or stupid, or… whatever, I guess. I just don’t see other viable options,
Welcome to political apathy.
and I think broadcasting moral superiority,
If only legism was moral superiority. Then legists of Third Reich would be "morally superior". Well, they did claim to be superior everywhere. Didn't help in Nuremberg.
Meanwhile people who built universal education, universal healthcare, public transit and welfare systems in my country weren't legists.

Meanwhile leftists: "Make sure you don't vote in a way that might keep actual fascists from power. Better the fascists win than people who will make things only mildly better!"

Exterminating Gazans makes things better?
Maybe read the meme again.
When has voting kept fascists from power?
- This coming November. So you pretend that stopping fascists is important to you, but you're not prepared to even put a mark in a box to stop it.

Ahh, yes, a pointlessly divisive meme that only seeks to stir up shit. Peddle your bad faith trolling elsewhere.

liberals when someone points out they shouldn't try to compromise with fascism.
- We already know what happens when a liberal gets scratched. Apparently for some all we need to do is scratch their ego.
The agitprop seems to be working lol.
Why is this "pointlessly divisive?" Liberals always attack leftists and side with fascists, it's agitprop. It's divisive with a purpose.
Is all Agitprop bad-faith? Lemmy.world's proud tradition of left-punching seems more bad-faith.
- I'm shocked, honestly, at the response to my comment.
  I don't understand how everyone can be missing this so badly. This meme, this attitude of left vs. far left, is the EXACT same thing that the right did to themselves before the last election (and are currently still doing). This whole idea that the liberals aren't left enough, or that, as you say, the liberals are attacking the far left, is a lie. It's agitprop all right, but it's agitprop designed to agitate the entirety of the left, and divide them before an election. It's turning blue voters into non-voters or third party voters. It's doing exactly what the right wants. It's giving them the election on a fucking silver platter. It's just horseshoe theory mixed with a little, "The call is coming from inside the house."
  But, no. Go ahead. Keep believing yourself to be the victim of crimes you have no evidence of. Keep telling yourself that it's you against the world. And when Trump takes office after the election in 4 months you can have so many other people to blame it on other than yourself.
  Great work. Keep it up. You are a true free-thinker.

Aren't liberals leftists though?

No. Leftism is primarily defined by support for a socialist economy. There is not a single liberal on the planet that would support socialism.
- That lack of nuance is not helpful. There are plenty of liberals that would like a more balanced economy.
  Edit: I’m tired of everyone's "that’s not socialism." You have to get people behind it. That requires taking steps. You aren’t going to bitch at reasonable people online to wake up one day and we’ve made the full conversion.
Liberals are not leftists if we define the status quo as capitalism and leftism as the progressive opposition to the status quo
(and those are the definitions I and probably any honest socialist uphold)
Cannot tell if this is meant sarcastically? Probably?
Just in case you are serious:
Often debated because neither is well defined and liberal is used by different people to mean totally different things. As I would use the term, liberals are in favor of liberating markets and nothing else. Leftists are people who are in favor of progressive and emancipatory politics. So for me, liberals are definitely no leftists.
- It was serious, in my head both were just terms for left wing further left than central left but not like extremist left wing.
They are, or rather were. For most of the world, especially in Europe, liberalism means/meant socially liberal, i.e. left wing - based on personal freedom from imposition of others’ values on their personal and social lives. However, in America liberal has (relatively recently, as in 2000’s) become synonymous with neoliberal ideology, which is absolutely not left wing in any traditional sense, focusing on ‘small government’ and freedom of the markets—I guess because pronouncing two extra syllables is too much effort? Idk.
With the internet this peculiar usage has recently (as in the last 5-10 years) started leaking out of America and is being used in this confusing and ambiguous manner.
To be fair though, the Overton window has shifted so far right now that liberal (i.e. left of the nominal centre) shares much of the same space as neoliberal. See New Labour, and the current Labour government.
Edit: Deleted a paragraph that in retrospect was unnecessarily negative.
- For most of the world, especially in Europe, liberalism means/meant socially liberal, i.e. left wing
  Wuh? In most of continental Europe, liberalism typically means classical liberalism, a right-wing ideology about laissez faire economy. The US has always been the odd one out in using it to mean socially liberal (see also the last paragraph here).
- This isn't really true, even with being extremely vague.
  Liberalism, as described by Locke, was primarily concerned with individual liberty (as mentioned), but included in those liberties was the right to private property. In fact, he was among the first to describe it as a 'natural law'.
  US liberals co-opt the label with emphasis on the social liberties, and neo-liberals co-opt the label with emphasis on the personal property.
  Leftist politics, being primarily oriented along a materialist axis, is concerned with both social and economic liberation and identifies systems of oppression in both governance and capital owners. Referring to 'liberals' as 'leftist' ignores the central ideological focus of leftist politics to begin with.
- Ah thanks I think that clears it up for me.
Nope, Liberals seek to maintain Capitalism, Leftists seek to move beyond it.
maybe in the purest sense of the word. Personally I find the label "left" to be pretty pointless anyway.
Draw an equal triangle. Label each point 'left', 'right' and 'liberal'.
The concepts are in perfect tension over: public policy, private interest, and state authority.

Pfft, the same leftists complaining about Sanders and AOC not being progressive enough?

Get outta heeeeere

No they take the ring for themselves and this is how we get center-left authoritarianism.

That's not how fascism works, in any way. Fascism is a response to dying Capitalism, it's an attempt to turn the clock back via the Petite Bourgeoisie and Bourgeoisie working together against the Proletariat and Lumpenproletariat.
Marxists want to turn the clock forward and organize along Socialist lines, with a democratically run worker-state. This is not fascism, nor is it Leftists taking advantage of fascism.
Historically, Liberals prefer to side with fascists, as they wish to maintain current structures, rather than reorganize.

Seriously couldn't be more well put.

hmm, does marxist/leninist/stalinist count as fascism ?

No, no and no*
Marx postulated communism from an economic analysis with the goal to improve the economic and political situation of the working class. This is deeply antifascist.
Lenin abolished the tsarist rule and implemented progressive politics like womens rights and ended the criminalization of homosexuality.
Stalin while ideologically and economically not a fascist was staunchly authoritarian, which is a core theme of fascism and he rolled back many of the progressive social policies of Lenin. However authoritarianism is an universal political theme, whether fascist, stalinist, monarchist or even "democratic".
- hmm if you are condemning these acts from comrade Stalin, I think Marx encouraged dictatorship of proletariat, Karl Marx believed in a transitional period in the road to total communism this being a socialist state under a dictatorship authority of "the people's party", even the acts of purge that Stalin carried I think were mentioned by Marx, I personally don't think that Stalin betrayed Marxism, but if Marxism is a totalitarian system, and we're here calling totalitarians "fascists" then Marxism is a form of fascism
Why would Marxism-Leninism count as fascism? What is fascism, in your eyes?
- hmm, fascism is mainly a totalitarian system I think. I heard USSR did actually suppress some religious acts on its' soil, which is an important aspect of individuality
Tankies are fascist in my book.
- What's a tankie? Any Marxist? How is Marxism "fascist?" What is fascism in your view, and how does it match up to Eco's 14 points:
  The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
  The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense, Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
  The cult of action for action’s sale. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
  Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture, the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
  Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
  Appeal to social frustration. “[…] one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.
  The obsession with a plot. “The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia.”
  The enemy is both weak and strong. “[…] the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
  Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
  Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
  Everybody is educated to become a hero. “in Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
  Machismo and Weaponry. “This is the origin of machismo (which implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality). Since even sex is a difficult game to play, the Ur-Fascist hero tends to play with weapons—doing so becomes an ersatz phallic exercise.”
  Selective Populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.
  Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”
Apples and oranges. You can have fascism with any political system. The overuse of tankies is a indicator that the accusing party doesn't really understand that.
- No, you can't. When a Marxist becomes a red fascist they stop being a Marxist and become a liar.

I can't add a whole lot to what's already being said. But I have to ask. Did no one read the LoTR? Tolkien was a believer of benevolent Monarchy, and rejected political plurality. Closer to authoritarian really, with a lot of sugar added.

So the meme bugs me in one more way. Isildur was in fact a better choice, whether he could or could not defeat sauron. There was no other choice middle earth would rally under the banner of. And because people supported him despite imperfections, Aragon got the chance with his allies to fight another day and win.

🎶 I don't want to live in Middle Earth no more

I don't want to die in this One Ring war

I want to sail off to Valinor

And make like an Elf Man 🎶

It's a meme. It does not necessarily have to live up to the original point of the scene or the author.

I think you meant to say “tankies”?
- Are you calling liberals tankies? Is Lemmy.world turning on itself, now?
- Excellent case in point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bRPYDVgCws

Since they already did that once this time it means we destroy it for good (in the end)!

The very last line is redundant. If you don't know by now what the critical role fascism plays in the liberal order is, I don't know what to tell you.

you must be fun at parties
- No, I'm not. And yet people still invite me to theirs.

goddamn if leftists spent 1/100th of the time they invested on hating liberals into fucking doing anything productive we'd live in a utopia.

never seen a greater example of pissing and moaning instead of doing something about it.

Leftists are building up political parties like the Party for Socialism and Liberation, volunteering for Mutual Aid networks like Food Not Bombs, or resisting ongoing genocide, like the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.
Liberals just have to sit on their thumbs and support the status quo, Leftists have to do the hard work of actually building up dual power and organizing. These people also are allowed to meme on the internet.
- pretty much what I expected from a leftist. leftists just piss and moan, while liberals are actually dragging this country into the future. the leftist urge to reframe liberals as neocons is fascinating, y'all got some brain worms in high gear.