3mo ago

‘I don’t date at all now’: one woman’s journey into the darkest corners of the manosphere

www.theguardian.com

To this day, she remembers the racing thoughts, the instant nausea, the hairs prickling up on her legs, the sweaty palms. She had shared a photograph of herself in her underwear with a boy she trusted and, very soon, it had been sent around the school and across her small home town, Aberystwyth, Wales. She became a local celebrity for all the wrong reasons. Younger kids would approach her laughing and ask for a hug. Members of the men’s football team saw it – and one showed someone who knew Davies’s nan, so that’s how her family found out.

Her book, No One Wants to See Your D*ck, takes a deep dive into the negatives. It covers Davies’s experiences in the digital world – that includes cyberflashing such as all those unsolicited dick pics – as well as the widespread use of her images on pornography sites, escort services, dating apps, sex chats (“Ready for Rape? Role play now!” with her picture alongside it). However, the book also shines a light on the dark online men’s spaces, what they’re saying, the “games” they’re playing. “I wanted to show the reality of what men are doing,” says Davies. “People will say: ‘It’s not all men’ and no, it isn’t, but it also isn’t a small number of weirdos on the dark web in their mum’s basements. These are forums with millions of members on mainstream sites such as Reddit, Discord and 4chan. These are men writing about their wives, their mums, their mate’s daughter, exchanging images, sharing women’s names, socials and contact details, and no one – not one man – is calling them out. They’re patting each other on the back.”

Women @lemmy.world

Five @slrpnk.net

3mo ago

‘I don’t date at all now’: one woman’s journey into the darkest corners of the manosphere

www.theguardian.com /society/2025/apr/30/i-dont-date-at-all-now-one-womans-journey-into-the-darkest-corners-of-the-manosphere

191 comments

I think part of why she didn't seen men fighting some of the shitty stuff online is due to the echochamber effect of those communities. Any resistance is downvoted, dogpiled with hateful comments, and maybe even removed by a biased mod. A lot of the good men who would defend in those comments don't even browse those specific forums because of how toxic and shitty they can be.
- The good men aren't there and don't even know what's going on. I've used Reddit and Lemmy but have blocked the NSFW/NSFL stuff. There is no opportunity to denounce or report because I remain deliberately blissfully ignorant.
- Also why would I ever recognize a space like that and not run away. "Calling out" is still participation, and why would I want to participate (incl. from the legal perspective). I have the moral obligation to do that because...I am man? As if being a man was being part of a club.
  
  I believe we (as in, people) all have a responsibility to hold each other accountable. But we can also only do so much, and inserting yourself into a toxic community founded for the sole goal of normalizing that toxicity in some misguided attempt to reform such people is beyond what any one person can be expected to engage with.
- You're absolutely right, but haven't I read that they're learning to lie about their presence in the manophere? So if it's, say 10% who actively think and act that way, plus 15% passively subject themselves to it without going all in, but who aren't really judging, that's 1/4 guys who I wouldn't risk a relationship with, many of whom are actively hiding their positions. I can see why it wouldn't be worth it to date any man. Especially for someone with her experiences.
  And my IRL impression is that it's way more guys than 15% who intentionally expose themselves to it, and slightly more than 10% who fully buy into the misogyny.
  
  I agree, and in my opinion, women and partners in general need to get better at leaving piece of shit men (or shitty partners in general). Many of them keep acting like this cause they get away with it after some small talk and a nice dinner just to be a piece of shit again next week. I've known girls who date men who genuinely claim that women shouldn't be allowed to vote and all i can think is "why is this girl staying with someone who hates them?"
- Additionally, those kinds of shitbags routinely get tossed out of respectable places. What brings the manosphere, and things like it, together is usually a shared experience of rejection and isolation.
- IDK, instead of picking fights with random fucks in their own echo chambers where I'd just get banned anyway, I strive to be a positive example for the youngins around me in real life.
- Yup. I’m not going to actively hang out with shitheads just to try and change them. I will however steamroll over them if they come into MY space and do it.
- Guys seem to like going into a game together and fighting against overwhelming odds, working together to shoot down the enemy. Even if they "die" several times.
  Maybe it would be interesting to get together and make a raid/foray into one of these manosphere forums, supporting each other's arguments and shooting down sexist crap.
  
  Several studies also describe the backfire effect, I.e., people getting more entrenched in their position when confronted with opposing arguments. I doubt I can ever succeed where a decade+ of education system failed.
  
  r/conservative has already disproven that experiment, no matter how much opposition, they will spin a million excuses and point out how their echo chamber is being "brigaded" by bots or whatever
  
  We should weaponize bots to do this. With AI it doesn't even need to be real people anymore.
  They're using them against us and it's long past time we responded in kind.
- I explicitly stay away from such groups. I call it out in person, and politely check my friends when they say something that they might not realize is harmful, exactly the same way I expect them to check me, but that's just it. That kind of discourse isn't welcome in these groups because they were created with one explicit purpose: to justify and normalize the absolute shittiest behavioursof the most sexiest of male culture.
  She's right, it isn't a small amount of men. But it's a supermajority in certain circles, and a tiny, neglible minority in others. She, unfortunately, exposed herself to the worst of men enmasse. We should instead go to those latter circles, and avoid/ostracize those former circles, until they realize if their only goal is sex, they'll have to figure out how to be a decent person first. And men, choose to be better.
Any decent man who has spent enough time in locker rooms understands that ~30% of men are shitty people and of those, somewhere around half are probably violent.
Once you have a daughter or put youraself in womens shoes, you realize how terrifying those odds are for women trying to navigate this world.
- This is why when my daughter announced she was gay, I was absolutely thrilled. She gets to go on this new journey with the part of humanity that 1) can't cause a teen pregnancy and 2) much less abusive
  
  Though, do be careful because there are abusive same-sex relationships and sometimes it's even harder to get away because the people around you are telling you "but women can't be abusers!"
- This is 100% correct. I have 4 daughters myself and an amazing wife. I see it almost daily. In the current landscape, it's even harder. My older female family members don't even care. They "got theirs" and could give a shit about women growing up in this world.
  I will always defend women, and I patiently wait for the day a woman in my presence gets disrespected by some Chad, Andrew Tate loving motherfucker.
  I'm here for all my human sisters, as we should all be equal on this planet. Fuck these men with no morals and no human equality compass. Scared of something they don't understand or what incels tell them to act like. Its madness and makes me sick.
- God I hate that you are right. I only have like one male friend because I legit had to distance myself from ao many other male friends who were just horrible people and I couldn't stand to listen to them anymore.
  
  Similar experience. Had a best friend who kept saying more and more misogynistic bs. After he said: "I could rape you, yoo know. And you wouldn't be able to stop me."
  Over time, I made a munch of male friends who are awesome. Nothing beats binge watching the Owlhouse with the bro's. Or a drunk pillow fight. Or a boat trip. They are fun. One friend is the kindest, humblest dude I ever met. I view him as a role model if anything. I'm also friends with a war veteran, and he is a kind guy who loves to train dogs and people.
  It's hard to find these people though. Most men don't want friendships with women. They just fuckzone em.
- What places do you go? My pool is super chill, I have seen all kind of uplifting moments. Maybe certain gyms have a selection bias? I don't know.
  
  I was thinking high school locker room when I read it. Cause it fit my experience there.
- That just seems... Insane? My experience certainly doesn't reflect this. But I never do averages based on a sample size of one.
  
  ~30% of people being shitty tracks with voting patterns
- r/FemaleDatingStrategy is/was a subreddit as well (seems inactive since 2023), it was basically the same as r/theredpill, just for women.
  
  They have moved to a dedicated website now.
  
  Weird that this is getting downvoted so heavily, but nobody is elaborating why, just downvoting it and moving on.
- I read through their new posts and “strategies” frequently, mostly out of a sort of morbid fascination, but also a desire to protect myself from men.
  Sound advice, it's useful to recognize the bullshit lingo & rhetoric that's all a part of these idiotic schemes (see: "Pickup Artists"). I realized that one of my acquaintances had started slipping those catchphrases into convos years ago, and it caught me off guard. They hadn't seemed like much of an asshole before, but it raised my hackles knowing that they weren't just reviewing the media, but integrating it into their personality/beliefs without any sort of filter.
- It is really disturbing how there are entire online communities of men basically dedicated to teaching each other how to be abusers.
- beautiful quote, saved......saved to my wank bank! had you going there for like 7 periods! I need to share this on twitter
  
  but no very pretty never heard it before
- they moved onto other subs once that got banned, or on another platform, they are sitll there on places, like twoxchromosone, femcels,,,,etc. alpha, beta thing came from pickup artists videos, and incels/and other men binge on that content.
These are forums with millions of members on mainstream sites such as Reddit, Discord and 4chan. These are men writing about their wives, their mums, their mate’s daughter, exchanging images, sharing women’s names, socials and contact details, and no one – not one man – is calling them out. They’re patting each other on the back.
I suspect there is some amount of survivorship bias type thing going on here. The type of men to hang out in such places are the type that enjoy it, and as such would never call out such behavior. The men that don't enjoy such will tend not to come across such content in the first place.
So the first group just doesn't care, the second doesn’t see it in the first place.
There is also probably some degree of the second group of men acknowledging that trying to call out such behavior won't go very far. If you said "hey don't share this woman's pics" on 4chan, you're going to immediately get laughed at, ignored, and probably called a bunch of slurs. And then they'll keep on doing it because you told them not to. And that's in no small part because these places are puedo anonymous.
Men can't get away with such behavior as easily outside of the internet. Calling them out in real life is far more likely to go somewhere. However ther are caveats. Again comes the survivorship bias thing I mentioned. But worse, if done in real life and calling out that behavior backfires, it becomes a teaching moment. "Don't tell other men to behave decent or they'll ostracize and harass you".
It's a fucked up situation all around.
- Let’s not forget that the people that call out said behavior get banned and their comments deleted.. you can’t authentically claim nobody calls them out because you don’t actually know if anyone is or not.. because ban.
  
  I've called these assholes out on reddit to in the past. My reward was not only getting banned from their sub, but also getting auto-banned from a bunch of unrelated mainstream and progressive subs.
  The idea that we can just go in and win an argument with these clowns is incredibly naive. I get the sense that the author didn't actually try to do this herself. Social media is specifically built to push people into impenetrable bubbles because the algorithms intentionally favor combative tribalism, which drives up engagement.
  But social media is only part of the problem. We have bigger issues related to how we think about men, and how we raise boys, that drive them into this mentality in the first place. Toxic masculinity is not new, it's just been spread rapidly by technology.
- I think so to. I've seen a lot of pornography and never encountered a community like that. I think the vast majority of dudes are just skimming the surface and never get into communities about it. Most of the guys i know would think doing so was weird. I had a couple dudes try to show me pictures their girlfriends sent them in the past but I did call them out for that.
  
  I think the vast majority of dudes are just skimming the surface and never get into communities about it.
  I've come across them. But only on 4chan, which there is fuckall anyone can do about, short of breaking into their site.
  Most of the guys i know would think doing so was weird.
  I would hope the same of my friend group. I've tossed a lot of friendships in the trash because of their behavior. So those that remain are hopefully those that are actually good.
- An apropos of that. I'm Chinese/Viet half-and-half and was born in the UK. I have friends in the UK that are half-Chinese and half-British (white/caucasian). I had no idea that there were so many "half-Chinese" specific groups online.
  Also, I can't remember but there was some business about having a Chinese dad was better than a Chinese mom (I could have them switched). However, it's mainly boys/men with this problem and they're having issues dating or with school and everything and blame it all on their Chinese parent. My friend tries to chime in to talk some sense into them but the self-victimization is really strong and he gets pushed out.
  
  However, it’s mainly boys/men with this problem and they’re having issues dating or with school and everything and blame it all on their Chinese parent.
  Yeah that touches on a related problem, the fact that we've designed society to be anti-social.
  You can't easily hang out with friends, because they're half way across the city/state/etc.
  Nobody has consistent free time due to the enormous energy and time requirements for a financially stable life if you can even have one.
  There are no third places to meet people
  Cars divide everything with highways, busy roads, and slow traffic.
  It's incredibly hard to have a social life, and as a result people lash out. And they tend not to care about if the thing they lash out against is the correct thing to lash out against.
  And it's a self feeding cycle. Because men tend to lash out in the form of right wing populism, and any woman who knows anything will steer clear of that nonsense. So it feeds into itself.
  In your case it's self hatred racism, but it's driven by the same forces.
I know a lot of guys in the comments are saying they don’t see it so they don’t have the opportunity to call it out. And some of those guys are making good points! These communities probably don’t interact much with men that treat women with respect.
But I also wonder how much of that stuff happens and they don’t realize it’s harmful to women. Obviously sharing photos isn’t okay so that’s an easy one to call out.
It’s not a man’s fault that he doesn’t see it, necessarily. You don’t have the same experiences as women and it just doesn’t occur to you as often. Women are on alert 24/7.
Kinda like that thing about the number of guys who feel safe walking to their car at night vs the number of women. (I know some men are anxious in that scenario too, but nearly ALL women are.)
When I was an elementary school aged kid, I was afraid to play outside at my grandmas house because a man drove by yelling cat calls. This actually happened a couple times growing up.
At 14, a random man followed me home from school.
In my college there was a flyer in the restroom about how something like 1 in 6 women will experience sexual assault or rape. But really that’s just the number reported.
Every single woman I know has experienced sexual assault or rape of some kind. (I didn’t ask my coworkers to be fair).
That’s bonkers.
But I do appreciate those of you that are trying to be better! The comments here are reassuring and give hope for the future!
- It's not just about how you're treated by these communities, it's how they work mechanically.
  For example, on reddit if you engage with these people, you will not only be deleted and banned from their sub, you will also be auto-banned by a bunch of opposing subs. You get one chance to participate before you need to circumvent the platform by creating a new account.
  It's simply not feasible to engage with them online in this way, and that's ignoring the time and emotional energy you need to spend to do it in the first place.
  The issue needs to addressed at a societal level. As a society we value all the wrong things in men and few of the right things. A lot of these guys end up in these communities specifically because they feel they can't meet the ludicrous standards created for them, and place the blame solely on women instead of our wider culture.
- I don't interact with anybody who does this. Really, outside of my wife and my close family I don't interact with anybody. Partially due to being assaulted multiple times, my anxiety goes through the roof.
  It's horrible how some people treat each other, but understand just because I'm perceived to be part of a specific gender doesn't mean I have meaningful opportunity to do anything about it. I'm just a human, and while I agree other humans are often bad, it's out of my scope to do anything really impactful. I understand what is happening. It's much much worse than you state. It's worse in ways I probably would get banned for typing out on this site. Worse than you can possibly imagine. That's something society needs to address, and as an individual I cannot convince other people how bad it is or how extreme of action we need to take. And not for lack of trying.
  It's good threads like this spread awareness, but reduction will not further the cause of improving the situation.
- There are some cultures that are so female unfriendly it isn't funny, some of that has to do with religion and some of that doesn't. That's also one of the harsh realities of combating things like this because some people actually grew up and learn that women and worth less or some other kind of bullshit.
  The other side of this coin is that in books and articles like this and heck even your comment only women get victimized or men get targeted. Yes statistically men are way more the cause of (sexual) abuse, misogyny or whatnot. Same with that women have it statistically worse partially because of some culture and partially because some people are just dicks and/or sick in their head. Some men (especially gay's, minorities and insecure people) get (sexually_ abused by women or other men, but that generally flies under the radar way more since they are often not believed.
  That's why I always feel the need to mention it just incase it helps somebody down the line. Let's do better together!
  
  You’re absolutely right about sexual assault against men. I thought what Terry Crews did was heroic. Even when he didn’t want to speak out, he knew he needed to be a leader and he spoke up.
  I didn’t leave it out from a lack of concern. I was just making a point by how unsafe women feel in every aspect of their lives, not just occasionally in a Reddit forum.
  Trans people, especially black trans people, are targeted in at a whole other level and are often ignored in reporting. They don’t deserve that.
  Crazy that we all can’t just respect each others right to live.
  
  That’s why I always feel the need to mention it just incase it helps somebody down the line. Let’s do better together!
  If someone is talking about an issue, it is not helpful to bring up a different issue. They are not dismissing the other issue, it's simply not the topic being discussed. To bring up another issue when one is trying to be discussed is actually dismissive of the problem at hand. It's like you're trying to change the subject. You should not try to bring awareness of a problem on the thread of a different problem. Just create a thread about the problem, where the subject at hand can be that alone. If you made a post about men being victimized, and someone said "but what about women being victimized" I'm sure you could see that being problematic and dismissive.
  You are absolutely going to see more posts about women being victimized. That does not mean people do not care about victimized men, it just means it's happening to women more often. There should absolutely be support and a movement for men. But, at least right now, it is separate from the movement for women.
Davies was contacted by seven men over seven days who had all been scammed or catfished by seven different fake accounts that were using her images. She wrote an Instagram post to warn others and a BBC journalist got in touch, leading to her first documentary When Nudes Are Stolen. This was life-changing. “It was the first time that I had sat down with campaigners and experts who laid all those images out and said that what happened to me wasn’t OK,” she says. “No one had ever said that before. No one had ever said: ‘It wasn’t your fault.’ It was such a moment for me. It lifted the weight off my shoulders.”
Good Lord, that’s depressing. When people take advantage of you, it’s not your fault. What is this world doing to people?
Pro tip - I'll absolutely snitch on the guys I know that you probably shouldn't date. Maybe you have a male friend that's the same.
- This just reminded me of the wonderful responses from these guys.
  
  Well, that kind of supports my theory here.
  It's shitty that there's not much you can do to actually intervene. Usually they don't come straight out and admit they're a misogynistic trashbag, it's just a strong vibe.
- My sister dated a sociopath. He was a master manipulator and cheated on and with every woman he wanted. This afgan muslim wad the biggest hypocrit I ever met.
  He preyed on young women. Especiaally the vulnerable ones who suffered from loneliness, insecurities and/or depression. His charms did not work as well on me, because I'm not attracted to men. He did not like me and tried to ridicule me, cross my boundaries and set up my sister against me. Tried to slut shame me and implying I slept around in engineering. Trust me... no amount of axe bodyspray combats the overfilled lecturing room in summer. You could feel and taste the smell of men when entering. I have sensed every pheromone a man can produce, and none has a positive effect on me. And even if I did fuck every guy in engineering, what's his point? He believed in polygamy. If he gets to fondle an theatre of tits, I should be able to ride every dick I want (with consent ofc).
  My best friend was a guy. And the sociopathic pig would tell him misogynistic bs. About how to play multiple women at a once. My friend did not tell me anything about what the swine said. After all, bro's before ho's. And I was apparently the ho rather than the bro.
  Anyhow. My warnings weren't taken seriously, and 3 people I knew have had affairs with him. 2 of which were barely 19 and had a history of parental neglect and fear of abandonment.
  Had my friend bothered to tell me, I may have had enough to convince my sister at least to cut ties with him. Instead, she become more and more miserable and doubtful of herself. Trying to break it off, but not being assertive enough to enforce it. Thank our crappy mother for that.
  The pig also had a lawsuit against him for sexual msiconduct. He was a taxi driver and an incident had taken place where two women left his cab and hit the front of his car with a heel. Leaving a dent. Or so the story went. His brother lost his medical licience because there were too many sexual harassment claims against him in his dental practice. His family is known for misogyny. Fucker lied about his name because of it and refused to introduce her to his family. Reason he gave had to do with his muslim backround, but in reality, he was already engaged to another woman.
  I hope she is okay. I doubt it though.
  My sister recovered from the ordeal. Woman no. 3 cut ties with us and we don't know what happened. We assume she did so out if shame. Which isn't surprising because they all had an affair with the same guy. Fucking dumbass. Woman no. 2 was the most vulnerable, but is doing well now. Being disgusted with herself for how she acted.
  I am no longer friends with the guy I used to hang out with almost daily. After he kept saying misogynistic bs and telling me he could rape me while I wouldn't be able to do defend myself.
  Men cannot be counted on for snitching, even if someone's safety depends on it.
  
  If you imagine some kind of multi year "relationship education" instead of just sex ed where all kids at ~14 learn about pathological psychology and all the ways people can manipulate you or fuck you over I imagine it would be far less off a problem.
There are some pretty awful takes in these replies. It seems a fair number of men here at least vacation near the "manosphere".
- Yeah right now Lemmy is a niche appeal social media site with a minor technical barrier to entry, so it's basically the ideal environment for toxic users to spawn. World is getting better as more regular-human users are driven off reddit, and there's obviously blahaj and similar instances, but yeah it's pretty rough here. Lots of "Anyone who'd choose the bear over me is just an idiot, I'd never completely miss the point like a bear would" types.
- This take is even more useless. A part of the idiotic flora of parasites that follows it around
As a middle-aged man, I agree that there are some completely shitty men (loosely) out there. A real man should be compassionate, caring, protective when wanted, supportive when needed, and should never do the absolute scum things this poor woman experienced. This is on fathers (mostly) and mothers to teach their sons what it means to be respectful to everyone around them, not just women but men as well. Fathers need to model the behavior so their sons don’t grow up to be terrible humans. It is on parents to address online safety. It’s uncomfortable to do this but really, really needed. As far as the man sex culture, I’m not sure that is a fair statement. That would be like saying a woman sex culture. From what I’ve seen in my life, you will always be proven wrong if you stereotype anything about any perceived group of people.
- From what I’ve seen in my life, you will always be proven wrong if you stereotype anything about any perceived group of people.
  Not always but the exceptions (or as close to exceptions as generalizations can ever get you anyway) are usually cases where the stereotypical behavior is entangled deeply with the very definition of the group, e.g. the vast majority of kids of rich parents can't understand the struggles of being poor.
  
  I understand what you’re saying, what I meant was every time i got to the point where I had a preconceived idea about a group of people, I was proven that I was wrong. There are always exceptions - that is my point.
- The thing is most of these dudes are highly desired and taken already so what you get on tinder rotation is absolutely not that.
If anyone is unsure why women would chose the bear...
- Most young men and women choose not to date. "Choosing the bear" isn't limited to one gender. And yes, I understand it, at least partially. It's rough out there.
  
  Social division as a result of people not socializing anymore has driven a massive wedge between the diverse and beautiful spectrum of people who used to find appreciation and joy in each others differences.
  Now every time you meet someone with different feelings than yourself, the internet has trained you to feel attacked.
  This is why we're all alone, we're afraid of being attacked, and somehow our definitions of what an attack is has been radically subverted.
Sending unwarranted dick picks should get you a sizeable fine, maybe 600 bucks and a 2 year registry in a sex offender list.
Give you a choice to stop fucking up and if you escalate and keep doing it then things get worse for oyu.
- Unsolicited naked pics have no place in society. We're not talking porn here, we're talking Joe sending a picture of his schlong to Mary like she is going to be ohh yeah let's do that.
  People with that mindset are seriously damaging other people. They're the reason women are afraid to go on walks at dusk.
  The penalty for that deserves some staying power. You're on the list; to get off the list, you need counseling and a psych eval. I'd go so far as to say mandatory house arrest until you get the counseling and eval.
  
  its weird and gross to do, but like how is seeing people naked so bothering to you people?? would a nude beach cause you to have a brain hemorrhage?. if I see something like that it doesn't hurt me mentally somehow??
- Why an expiry? It's the digital equivalent of flashing someone. In australia that gets you a six month sentence, a $1,100 fine, or both.
  
  It would limit watering down the register with 'minor' offenses. It would also help avoid trapping an idiot teen in a negative spiral, due to a stupid drunken mistake 10 years previously.
- What if they were banned from owning a smartphone or any camera phone? And banned from social media?
I feel like I'm in a different universe to most people. Only chance I get to call anyone out for anything is littering and playing music loudly in public. Honestly feels like confirmation bias, but I'm sure I'm wrong.
- I mean, if you went to 4chan you could presumably call out more, but it'd be kind of like yelling into a hurricane. Toxicity is self-concentrating in really anonymous online spaces.
  IRL bigots tend to hide their shit from non-target non-bigots.
  
  Toxicity is self-concentrating in really anonymous online spaces.
  The cause of and consequences of The Man-o-Sphere in a nutshell. People get drawn in by the promise of gamified easy answers to relationships (via PUA community, evangelist trad-life influencers, and other self-help gurus). But it's a bait-and-switch, with "advice" drifting from "how to find an easy relationship" into "why women are awful and you should hate them."
- If it makes you feel any better, I can ping you next time I encounter misogyny on Lemmy? It's far less toxic than a lot of online places, but it's definitely got corners where offensive takes get upvoted.
the hairs prickling up on her legs
Some incel somewhere: "WTF IS THIS WOKE BULLSHIT!?!?!?!"
99% of men are disgusted by this type of thing, but with billions of people and instant communication. this type of thing is bound to pop up. and because normal people aren't looking at this type of thing, they're echo chambers of degeneracy. but it really bothers me when people use sex based generalizations for things like this. millions of people isn't very much on a global scale.
- I think it is more widespread than you imagine. If admiration for Andrew Tate is an indicator of seriously misogynistic attitudes, then the statistics (for the UK) are quite shocking:
  Nearly a quarter (23%) of 15-16-year-old boys have a positive view of Andrew Tate compared to only 10% of girls at this age.
  Furthermore, one-third of dads (32%) view Andrew Tate favourably compared to 10% of mums. This positive view is even higher among young dads: 52% of 25-34-year-old dads compared to 19% of mums.
  Additionally, 49% of 25-34-year-old dads believe their child has a positive view of Andrew Tate.
  Source: https://www.internetmatters.org/hub/research/research-into-online-misogyny-and-image-based-abuse/
  
  Man these numbers are horrific we need to bring back McCarthyism but for these people
  Are you or have you ever been a supporter of Andrew Tate
  
  Maybe my opinion is influenced by my geographic position. I never would have imagined that many people of my generation support him. Where I live, saying you like Andrew Tate would be like saying you support Putin, maybe worse.
- As a man, it's also reasonable to say this is nearly non existent among women. Does it happen? Of course. But not nearly to the scale it happens among men.
  It's moreso a matter of semantics. If someone says "Men are disgusting", you don't have to take it literally. It's conveying the meaning that there is a large enough amount of men that are doing this that it is a massive problem in nearly every woman's life. The saying would be a bit less valid if it was so extremely prevalent. But as it stands, I can go up to just about any young woman, and they more than likely would have (at least) been sexually harassed by a man.
  So sure, with as many people as there are, it's "bound to pop up" but saying it that way seems to undermine just how prevalent it is. And correcting a statement that expresses the sentiment that this is a large problem by saying "But not all men are bad" is counterproductive. They are talking about the systematic issue among men. You could instead respond with "Yea, we need systematic changes" or something along the lines that address the concern they are raising.
  
  But as it stands, I can go up to just about any young woman, and they more than likely would have (at least) been sexually harassed by a man.
  Thats's most certainly accurate, since in the US, 1 in 5 women have been raped over the course of their lives.
  So, Sexual harassment would be far more likely. I'd guess, 4 in 5 women, if not 5 outta 5.
  
  When I said it's "bound to pop up" I was talking specifically about the online communities mentioned. I don't disagree that there are systemic problems but I think that they were focusing on a specific and small subset of a larger problem.
  I might be wrong about this, correct me if that's so. but because most men aren't rapists, yet a surprisingly high number of women get sexually assaulted/raped, It seems like the problem is not that most men are predators, but that our society is letting the minority that are get away with it repeatedly.
- It's the same as everywhere, those who scream the loudest get heard
This is what happens when you let your son's role models be sociopathic pieces of shit like the Tate brothers, Fresh and Fit, and the assorted fucking losers on Youtube who still use "SJW" like it's 2015.
I dunno, huge leopards ate my face vibes from people like this.
They keep putting their faith in shitty males then act all surprised when the males turn out to be shit.
I'd wager all the good males in her life were too "dorky" or "unpopular" for her to give them the time of day.
- Yeah how dare she get her personal photos spread across the internet and get sexually harassed!
  This is the most incel take and just kind of proves her point
  
  You'd have a point if she didn't willingly give the pictures up to the shitty male that shared them.
- Nice victim-blaming, creep.
  
  At some point, people have to take responsibility for their actions. Otherwise they're just being treated like children.
  You don't think this woman should be treated like a child, do you?
- That last paragraph in particular reads like a parody of incel thought.
  You may be a "nice guy" if...
  
  It's sad how much you people have been conditioned to ignore the truth whenever it's something someone else doesn't like.
  
  i was going to say the same thing, that is like the creepy thing a guy can say to a girl they want interact with. nice guy are not nice to a girl. and many woman can smell the desperation of incels so they stay away from them too.
- And in the west they seem to be getting worse. Anecdotal, but that's what I've been experiencing.
AI will fix this. Everyone will have nudes of everyone, and nobody will believe anything is real.
Even watching porn will be weird, when you can only assume what youre watching is a computer trying its best to not turn the womens bumhole into a picture of a dog.
- I don't know, photoshop exists, and it hasn't stopped anything so far.
  AI makes it easier, but may not do much to stop it.
  Just look at Facebook, or the puff-jacket late pope. People do take AI-generated posts as the real thing so much of the time.
  
  Photoshop is still too much effort and requires some skill.
  Once you can tell ChatGPT to "to make me some nudes of my classmate Alice" then that will change.
  Just look at drones. RC planes existed for ages but you needed some skills to assemble and use them. Now you can buy them ready made and now we need all sorts of regulations that idiots aren't flying them over airports.
  I, however, don't subscribe to the notion that it will normalize nudes. Those will be still used to bully those girls cause sadly people don't really need a reason to and that counts double for the young in school or collage.
Misogyny and misandry, two unhappy twins; one celebrated, the other shunned. Both found their way into this thread.
That's enough internet for today I think.
- Except they're not at all the same, you understand that, right? Misogyny is build upon layers of social and systemic discrimination
  I invite you to look into the term misandry some more: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misandry
  
  Trusting a wikipedia link to make your point for you doesn't work any better on lemmy than it did on reddit. In case anyone is curious, a couple excerpts from wikipedia
  In the Internet Age, users posting on manosphere internet forums such as 4chan and subreddits addressing men's rights activism have claimed that misandry is widespread, established in preferential treatment of women, and shown by discrimination against men.
  [...]
  Men's rights activists invoke the idea of misandry in warning against what they see as the advance of a female-dominated society. The idea of feminism as threatening towards men, encapsulated in the term misandry, forms a core part of the vocabulary of the manosphere and is used within the men's rights movement to counter feminist accusations of misogyny.
  They aren't equivalent-but-gender-flipped terms anymore, because "misandry" has been hijacked by the incels as a dogwhistle and convenient catchall term to dismiss concerns exactly like what's in this thread. While I don't think HexesofVexes intended this, they're conflating the two terms to be equivalent in meaning which, when taken in context, just simply isn't true.
When I was in HS if a girl wanted to show you some racy pics she'd just show you on HER phone.
- Graduated in 08
I don't date either.
People are bastards and I like my peace. No woman is worth giving up what I've built.
- No good woman would expect you to give up anything for her. I think we need to zoom out on this problem and recognize the issue is really just quality vs. non quality humans. Quality people are in rare supply. That’s why you have to hold on when you find one.
  
  Relationships just don't work like that. You can't have your freedom AND be in a relationship.
Dating in general these days seems like such a ugly slog I don't understand how people even find time to do something productive and play this dating game.
Feels like marriage is becoming very much desired again huh.
no one – not one man – is calling them out. They’re patting each other on the back.
being surprised by this makes no sense, it's like expecting people at a Hitler convention to call each other out for liking Hitler
edit: if you expect anything but the worst from users of reddit, discord, and 4chan, you're insane.
I just like that she calls out and lumps in 4chan with Reddit and Discord—because that's really what's it's become now. I mean there are dicks lurking and active in any corner of the Internet but those platforms in particular are obviously mainstream enough or known to harbor all kinds.... especially the kind she talks about.
- Yes, because the solution to misogynistic chauvinism is misandronistic chauvinism. Brilliant thinking... That'll alter things for the better.
- I can't comprehend how people can make such a statement when the same logic applied to race instead of gender would make them (righteously) scream bloody racism.
  I'm not responsible for the actions of someone who has the same genitals as me, no more than someone with the same skin color.
  
  Ironically that poster is an Israel supporter. By their own logic every Israeli should be victim of default "suspicion" and be treated like an IDF war criminal, since everyone has the "potential" to be one.
  Actually, this argument would be even more compelling since Israel does have elections and you can emigrate/renounce to your citizenship, both not possible in case of manhood.
  It's bizarre that someone could come up with such a poor argument that ultimately boils down to: "people should be accountable for the actions of other people in the same demographic", without realising there are tons of way you can divide people in demographics.
- because at least all men share the potential to act out problematic gender roles
  Everyone (literally) has the potential to act out problematic gender roles, women included.
  protect other men from female criticism because "they are different"
  This sentence is legit incoherent. If a criticism doesn't apply to someone, protecting against said criticism is quite literally preventing discrimination.
  If men want to get rid of the collective suspicions
  Or maybe we can criticize unfair collective suspicion in the same way summary judgments based on other categories are crticizised. I really can't see how this argument does not lead to racism, sexism, etc. Being a man is not being part of a club, you don't decide to join, you don't subscribe to any value, you don't have a steering committee that decides how "manhood" is by vote. Why tf anybody should be responsible to change a group that they are part of simply for biological reasons?
- You’re right but the problem lies in not even being able to have this conversation online without the mobbing
  
  You have the right to say sexist shit. And we have the right to call you out for it.
  Look, you want to vent because there are problematic men, go ahead. You have to complain because there are aspects of male culture that enable such men, go ahead.
  But the moment you attack a whole group for the actions of a few, just because of physical similarities you are no better than a racist and I will call you for it.
- A random sub-reddit doesn't represent any significant portion of "men," as a class.
Isn't white knighting a derogatory phrase?
To be honest I've lost interest in anything but one nighters and I'm a guy every time I've got into a serious thing I got cheated on eventually.
So yeah works both ways I guess.
- I am an older guy and all my relationships were brief and so troublesome that being in a relationship seems far more troublesome than it is worth.
It is horrible how some people treat others, but it is not my responsibility or prerogative to police others actions. There's nothing wrong with being single, and not dating is a personal choice which I would never criticize, but blaming 50% of the population for the actions of a minority is the definition of bigotry.
It breaks my heart that things are becoming more hostile and hateful. I hope I live to see the pendulum swing the other way.
- This seems to be a pretty narrow view point. They're not asking you to police other actions, but rather voice your disapproval when you see it. Nobody can control the actions of others, but it is also undeniable that men are more likely to listen to other men. To see something, and sit idly by, is comparable to supporting the action. If you do not at minimum vocalize your discontent, then you are fine with it being done around you.
  Your current suggestion is that a minority of men harass 50% of the population with no societal repercussions? When that 50% that's being harassed is like "Hey, we need help from the other 49% to bring about a societal change" your first response is to call them a bigot? In order to substantially change the harassment being done, everyone needs to step up.
  
  That is not my suggestion at all. When I can help, I do. When I can say something, I do. Still, we should not overgeneralize. Everybody is an individual and should be treated as such.
Transitioning to male and having the amount of sexual harassment and catcalling I get in public reduced by like half (still look ambiguous) has been crazy. I was followed home by a car recently, they yelled at me to join them, I responded "what??" with my now deepened voice and they said "nevermind" and drove away. I think about that a lot and what may have happened if they'd done that a year earlier

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