In shock announcement, Trump says U.S. wants to take over Gaza Strip

I don't think you understand. Harris wasn't "exciting" enough, so of course they had to stay home and not vote!

I agree with you. To anyone who still pretends Trump and Kamala were equally terrible with regard to Palestine: Kamala vocally supported an end to the war* and a two-state solution**, a prevailing US diplomatic philosophy. Please watch what Trump said tonight— it is so much worse than that. He advocates for the full removal of Palestinian people from their homeland.

*it is a genocide and not a war, I disagree with her.

**a two-state solution is not adequate as long as Israel continues to act as it does currently. Free Palestine. I disagree with her.

Kamala vocally supported an end to the war

She also said she was unwavering in her support for Israel and would keep arming them.

Remember when Trump said he would lower the prices of groceries? Do you judge him on that, or on his actions? Why is it different for Kamala and Dems?

You know, "empathy" isn't just "I feel bad for people sometimes!". Empathy is the ability to place your self in other people's shoes. So now let's practice some empathy. Imagine you are Palestinian, and you live in Gaza. Israel has bombed your neighbourhood with American bombs. Aid has been withheld from you and your family. Other hospitals and aid workers have been bombed by American bombs. Journalists are being shot with American supplied weapons and ammo. Some of your neighbours or friends - who weren't killed - have been captured and are being raped.

Now tell me - keeping that state of mind and empathy - what fucking difference does it make that Kamala "vocally supported an end to the war"?

Can you tell me right now - concretely and materialistically, no vague bullshit - how things were/would be better for Palestinians under the Dems? I've asked this question so many times and have never gotten an answer that wasn't just vague abstract BS like "but Trump said".

It seriously astonishes me that the one situation where there is no difference between Reps and Dems (except for the words they use while doing the same thing), is the one situation people decide to shout about how much better Dems would be than Reps.
- Now tell me - keeping that state of mind and empathy - what fucking difference does it make that Kamala “vocally supported an end to the war”?
  
  Because it means we haven't been completely been written off yet, public pressure could improve things. So you'd want the person who controls your fate to at least pretend to have empathy, not the maniac who used 'Palestinian' as a slur.
  
  Can you tell me right now - concretely and materialistically, no vague bullshit - how things were/would be better for Palestinians under the Dems? I’ve asked this question so many times and have never gotten an answer that wasn’t just vague abstract BS like “but Trump said”.
  
  There was still a Palestine. Now there won't be. It's really not that complex. There is a clear difference.
  
  Because it means we haven’t been completely been written off yet, public pressure could improve things.
  
  Public pressure has been around for decades, and the democrats were still supplying them with weapons.
  
  So you’d want the person who controls your fate to at least pretend to have empathy, not the maniac who used ‘Palestinian’ as a slur.
  
  Two people stomp on you. One says "I want the violence to stop", the other calls you a slur. They are both still stomping on you. There is no real difference to the person being stomped.
  
  There was still a Palestine. Now there won’t be. It’s really not that complex. There is a clear difference.
  
  Go look at maps of Palestine over the decades, please. Palestine was already being erased. This is like if we clean up the entire room together but then I let you put the broom away, and now you claim you were the one to clean the entire room. Just because Reps are the ones finishing the job does not mean the Dems were better - we know they were not because we just saw them actively supporting the genocide.
  
  Public pressure has been around for decades, and the democrats were still supplying them with weapons.
  
  Not really it hasn't been in the spotlight until Oct7th. That's when real change can happen.
  
  Two people stomp on you. One says “I want the violence to stop”, the other calls you a slur. They are both still stomping on you. There is no real difference to the person being stomped.
  
  Two people stomping at you, one pulls out a knife and says 'lets get this vermin and his family too'. There is a clear difference.
  
  Go look at maps of Palestine over the decades, please. Palestine was already being erased. This is like if we clean up the entire room together but then I let you put the broom away, and now you claim you were the one to clean the entire room. Just because Reps are the ones finishing the job does not mean the Dems were better - we know they were not because we just saw them actively supporting the genocide.
  
  'actively supporting the genocide' isn't the worst thing you can do. What Trump is doing is objectively worse.
  
  Put it this way.
  
  Kamala came out and said: 'Israel has a right to defend itself, and how it does so matters'
  
  If she had instead said 'Let's clean this filth out I'm gonna put a hotel here. All sanctions and blocks are cancelled. Please hurry up I have money to make. We'll provide some troops to help if needd'
  
  Which is worse?
  
  Not really it hasn’t been in the spotlight until Oct7th. That’s when real change can happen.
  
  Not knowing about it/not caring is not an excuse. 1978 Oscars
  
  Two people stomping at you, one pulls out a knife and says ‘lets get this vermin and his family too’. There is a clear difference.
  
  That change in the analogy does not work because they were already going after all Palestinians, my dude. So who is the family is this analogy?
  
  Put it this way. (...) Which is worse?
  
  Clearly you and I just disagree on a fundamental level. I don't care what noises someone makes with their mouth while committing heinous acts, and I do not see a moral difference between committing a genocide and arming the people that you know are committing a genocide. Would you also make excuses for the people who knowingly worked with Nazis and made weapons for them?
  
  EDIT: Initially linked the wrong video, then messed up fixing it. It's fixed now.
  
  I was well aware of it. Talking about the global spotlight. MSM coverage. That is when real change is possible. It's not an excuse it's reality.
  
  That change in the analogy does not work because they were already going after all Palestinians, my dude. So who is the family is this analogy?
  
  Well, they weren't. They ramped up settlements in the west bank, using the tricks they learned in Gaza, and now are going to ethnically clense the entire population of gaza. The analogy holds.
  
  Clearly you and I just disagree on a fundamental level. I don’t care what noises someone makes with their mouth while committing heinous acts, and I do not see a moral difference between committing a genocide and arming the people that you know are committing a genocide. Would you also make excuses for the people who knowingly worked with Nazis and made weapons for them?
  
  Well there is a difference, of course. Not everything is binary, there is always nuance. I'd tell you to vote for the nazi' if they were running against a worse oponent, yes. Just like I'd suggest voting for Trump if he was running against Hitler.
  
  Find Palestine on a map made after 1960 pls.
- We are 16 days in the Trump presidency and he has announced that he will clean the Gaza Strip from Palestinians. So within the first 16 days he has proven that the GOP has a radically different Middle East policy than Democrats, and you still continue to lie and state that both sides are the same. I am guessing you will keep this BoTH SiDeS conviction even if Trump nukes Gaza.
  
  And you keep giving me nothing concrete. It doesn't matter what they say if what they do is the same. Gaza was already being stripped of Palestinians. You still have not made it clear how this is actually worse for Palestinians.
  
  You ask for a concrete action when we are no more than 16 days in. Ok let’s ignore that and pretend you are acting in good faith.
  
  Weapon shipments that had been blocked have been released
  
  After the Gaza ceasefire Israel has opened an offensive on the Westbank
  
  Words of a US president have a meaning if they are not directly felt on the ground. For instance, Trump has made it clear today that he will not oppose an ethnic cleansing operation in Gaza (and likely the same for the Westbank).
  
  Let me ask you a question in return. It is my impression that you suffer from confirmation bias where you sat out the election because both sides were equally bad. I therefore think it would be good for you if you set a threshold. At what point will you accept that Trump is really worse than Kamala would have been?
  
  And plenty more were sent by Dems over the years.
  
  I've already linked to these in this thread, but it's depressing that anyone is making that argument anyway:
  
  July 2023
  
  Also, wiki page on the occupation of the West Bank
  
  As I said in another comment: two people stomp on you; one calls you a slur, the other says they want the violence to end, but neither stops stomping on you. What does it matter what they say?
  
  And you have a very bad impression. As I have mentioned several times:
  
  I'm not American (therefore I can't "sit out the election"); I have made it clear several times that Trump is much worse than Kamala in everyway except Palestine; I never (and I encourage you to go through my Lemmy history if you don't believe me) never told anyone to not vote for Kamala - in fact I once even said she might be the most left leaning American president in a long time; and I have also argued with a lot of Trumpists online.
  
  So, to put it mildly, your impression of me is off.
  
  At what point will you accept that Trump is really worse than Kamala would have been?
  
  For Palestine specifically? I'm not sure he can be. Would the Nazis have been better if instead of putting people in concentration camps they just shot them in the streets, bombed them, and starved them? If you believe so, then you could make an argument that concentration camps would be the threshold; but personally I'm not convinced there is much of a difference.
- Now tell me - keeping that state of mind and empathy - **what fucking difference does it make that Kamala "vocally supported an end to the war"?** Can you tell me right now - concretely and materialistically, no vague bullshit - how things were/would be better for Palestinians under the Dems? I've asked this question so many times and have never gotten an answer that wasn't just vague abstract BS like "but Trump said".
  
  This is the easiest lob you could give me. It's because HISTORICALLY it has been easier to get organized and get Dems to change their minds than it will ever be under Trump. His son-in-law Jared Kushner has been openly talking about beach front property in Gaza over the last year and courting land development deals.
  
  If you think Kamala Harris would have gone on the news with Netenyahu and said she was going to use the AMERICAN MILITARY TO TAKE GAZA, you are actually out of your mind. Once again, I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY'S POSITION. I DO NOT THINK THEY ARE DOING RIGHT BY THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE. But we were already seeing movement regarding limiting arms and funds to Israel, and Biden's ceasefire. The public backlash was actually gaining momentum into the House. We were seeing congress people speaking out against Netenyahu and the Biden administration getting both internal and external pressure for a pause in arms.
  
  And then, boom, Trump elected.
  
  There is actually no hope for a free Palestine under Trump and a Republican House and Congress. They don't care about optics, they don't care about international relations, they will use all the military and money they have to make sure that Israel becomes the "holy land" they need for their Christofascist rapture.
  
  If you think Kamala Harris would have gone on the news with Netenyahu and said she was going to use the AMERICAN MILITARY TO TAKE GAZA,
  
  That's what they did. They went on the news shaking hands with Netanyahu and israel leveled gaza with the full support of usa
  
  Ok, so your entire comment is: "maybe the Dems would change their minds", did I get that right? I'm sorry to say, that not worth shit. And if you want to talk about history, here and here you go. America (Dems) have been supporting Israel that whole time.
  
  AMERICAN MILITARY TO TAKE GAZA, you are actually out of your mind
  
  If you're Palestinian, what difference does it make if the guns shooting at you, and the boots stepping on your corpse, are carried by the Israeli military or the American military? The use of the American military is only worse for the Americans, for the Palestinians it's more of the same.
  
  No. I'm done. I've just realized that the Palestinian genocide to people like you is nothing but a thought experiment. I refuse to engage with someone who uses the actual plight of the Palestinians as a gotcha against Americans while not even participating in the political systems here.
  
  Focus on your own country, because unless you're from South Africa, you probably have a non-zero number of politicians who support Israel as well. This is not a fucking spectator sport.
  
  I refuse to engage with someone who uses the actual plight of the Palestinians as a gotcha against Americans
  
  You can't be fucking serious right now.
  
  This entire thread exists because of asshats like you trying to gotcha other Americans who didn't vote for Kamala. And it's not the first one like that, just the first that caused me to blow my top.
  
  while not even participating in the political systems here.
  
  Focus on your own country, because unless you’re from South Africa, you probably have a non-zero number of politicians who support Israel as well. This is not a fucking spectator sport.
  
  As I said before, what happens in America affects me to, so I'm gonna keep doing it and you can fuck off. If you actually disagree and believe in what you are saying, then I expect never to hear comment on Israel, Ukraine, or Russia ever again, since you do not participate in those political systems.
- Actually, I just read one of your other comments, and you know what's extra bullshit? The fact that you're telling people you're not even American, but you're still trying to justify why people shouldn't have voted for Harris.
  
  Under previous administrations, Palestinians in the United States were able to claim refugee status for their relatives and get them out of Gaza.
  
  Now, that's gone.
  
  The news cycle were able to report on everything going on in Gaza, and have people paying attention to the actual atrocities happening (never mind what's happening in Sudan and Congo).
  
  Now, Trump and Elon dominate the news cycle.
  
  So many people were willing to donate to Gofundme's for the people in Gaza to help them cross the border to Jordan/Egypt, or have enough money to at least buy food/shelter/medical treatment and survive until the ceasefire.
  
  Now, people are losing their jobs or in such economic uncertainty DUE TO THE DIRECT ACTIONS OF THE TRUMP ADMIN there is no extra money for mutual aid.
  
  The fact that your idealogical purity stance FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY has destroyed so much of the mutual aid mechanism surrounding Gaza and you don't even realize it is the most tragic part. I do digital infrastructure work pro bono for an organization that helps Doctors Without Borders, and guess what? The employees there have been furloughed due to the USAID freeze.
  
  So yeah, Kamala and DonElon...totally the same fucking thing, right?
  
  Actually, I just read one of your other comments, and you know what’s extra bullshit? The fact that you’re telling people you’re not even American, but you’re still trying to justify why people shouldn’t have voted for Harris.
  
  What the american government does has repercussion all over the world.
  
  Now respond to the rest of my comment. You didn't even read it, did you.
  
  Now, Trump and Elon dominate the news cycle.
  
  The news cycle has been dominated by a bunch of people in bed with the government for a long time. The genocide is gaza is already as bad as you would expect a genocide to be but media and governments are making really hard for you to to see the pictures of mutilated kids.
  
  you’re still trying to justify why people shouldn’t have voted for Harris
  
  Oh, that's rich, please do tell where I justified people not voting for Kamala. I have said several times in this thread alone that Trump is worse for Americans than Kamala would have been. I'll also add now that it's worse for Europe and Ukraine as well, something I've also said in the past. If you go look through my Lemmy history - go ahead, I dare you to prove I'm lying - I never once told people not to vote for Kamala. You should be ashamed either to lie so boldly, or that a foreigner who speaks English as a second language has a better understanding of it than you.
  
  Not to mention, America isn't isolated. What happens in America affects me too, for better or worse, so I have just as much a right to voice my opinion on American events and politics. If you disagree with that, then I expect you to remain quiet in regard to all other world events. Do you do that?
  
  The news cycle were able to report on everything going on in Gaza
  
  Multiple journalists were killed in Gaza with no consequences. And my news sources still report on Gaza anyway, so I'm not sure what you are referring to. If you're only looking at what is being posted on social media then perhaps you are correct, but I'd argue that is a problem in and of itself.
  
  So many people were willing to donate to Gofundme’s for the people in Gaza to help them cross the border to Jordan/Egypt, or have enough money to at least buy food/shelter/medical treatment and survive until the ceasefire.
  
  This is hands down the best response I've received on this issue, I will acknowledge that, however you talk as if Americans weren't already struggling before, and as if the rest of the world can't still donate and help.
  
  The fact that your idealogical purity stance FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY
  
  Are you Israeli? Are you Palestinian? If not, then why are you not following your own advice? I point back to my second paragraph, in regard to this.
  
  So yeah, Kamala and DonElon…totally the same fucking thing, right?
  
  In regard to Palestine and Israel? Pretty much. Everything else? Obviously not, which is what I've repeated about 200 times fold.
- People just don't want to accept that Trump is the true face of the US. It doesn't matter who is in charge. They are a racist bloodthirsty empire that steals the resources and freedoms of oppressed people. Its been this way for decades
- Ok, so there was no difference between them on this genocide.
  
  Guess Trump should have been stopped for other reasons.
  
  Too late now. Enjoy the fascism.
  
  I agree, which should be easy to understand if you've actually been reading my comments instead of having a knee-jerk reaction.
  
  Not American, so thankfully I don't have to (for now). And I did argue with a lot of Trumpists online before the election, but you can only do so much when the other party insists on being a shit stain.
  
  I have been reading your comments and it was not easy to understand.
  
  It would make (some level of) sense in posts about Elon taking over the government and immigrants being sent to Guantanamo Bay, but here?
  
  Go make these comments in a post about Trump censoring scientists or something.
  
  That's just in my original comment on this thread. I think people didn't understand I don't like Trump and think he's worse it's because they didn't want to, and they did not try.
  
  Do you think maybe if you have to blame everyone else for not understanding you, you're blaming the wrong party?
  
  I hear what you're trying to say, but honestly no. Not when I've been hearing that American literacy has been going down and most college kids nowadays can't even read a whole book; and not when I mention several times that Trump is worse for Americans - and I even made an explicit mention of Trump censoring scientists, which is a case where he banned words such as "LGBTQ+" from scientific papers - and then someone replied lecturing me about how much worse Trump would be for Trans people and Americans. Like, yeah, no shit, I said that.
  
  I think people just saw I disagreed with whatever stance they had and got angry, got even angrier when they saw how much of an ass I was being (in my defence, I wasn't an ass first, and I was sick of reading the same fucking comment under every Palestine thread) and just skimmed most of what I said and proceed to try to argue with me without even trying to understand what I said.
  
  Which frankly makes these conversations exhausting for me, because I'm actually trying to read what people are saying and replying, but most replies I get seem to not put any effort in turn.
  
  Assuming everyone here is American really makes me think you're blaming the wrong party.
  
  Well, I got lambasted for not being American and having an opinion on the topic, and the person who did it got quite highly upvoted. What conclusion would you draw? Plus I also recognize your username and (while I'm not 100% sure) I'm pretty confident you are American too. And to my knowledge Americans made up the bulk of Lemmy. Seems like a safe assumption to make 🤷‍♂️

Bold to presume that they were telling the truth when they said that they thought that BoTh SiDeS sAmE.

For me personally, I believe that they just might have been lying, and did not - in fact - believe their own BS at all.

Like this one from you-can-guess-who on Lemmy.ml:

They spoke, some people did not think critically and believed it, and now here we are. Lemmy is minor leagues, but the sAmE happening in the major leagues like X & Facebook etc. seem to have carried the day. Perhaps now people will start to think strategically. Or... probably not even now. Sad.:-(

'but we had no choice' - dumbfuks

The best choice to save palestinian people is to do everything in power against the red and blue party.
- When presented with a tough choice, you make it and deal with the circumstances. Sitting it out was a choice. They get to deal with the consequences.
  
  Sitting out was a choice as so was voting for murderers with blood on their hands. If you always make the good choice you will have no regrets because that is what you are supposed to do.
  
  Sitting out was a choice as so was voting for murderers with blood on their hands.
  
  So instead you get to keep your spotless morals while many, many more people die than would have if you made a realistic choice instead of throwing the voter equivalent of a tantrum
  
  If you always make the good choice you will have no regrets because that is what you are supposed to do.
  
  If you have no regrets with the way this turned out, I question the contents or existence of your morals.
  
  I voted Kamala and have no regrets with my choice, only regrets aimed at the people who claim to be my compatriots condemning millions to suffering while being high and mighty about it.
  
  When the choice is between two murderers throwing your vote away and not support any of them is the equivalent of doing the good thing.
  
  I voted Kamala and have no regrets with my choice,
  
  Search for the pictures of the kids that died or got mutilated by israel government with the full support of US government and you may start to feel remorse toward the whole system that made this possible.
  
  Enjoy
  
  Enjoy
- No, the best choice would have been to empower the one party that actually has, albeit often ignored but nevertheless significant, pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist members as part of its membership. And then to focus on improving that party and/or breaking up the duopoly along the natural and clear lines of opportunity present in the sole big tent party that's left in US politics.
  
  At the end of the day, there are no significant pro-Palestinian voices in the Republican party. There are in the Democratic party And that indisputable fact alone should inform a strategic vote.
  
  That said, people are stupid and I don't really blame non- and 3rd party voters for Democrats losing and the resulting shit show-- blame and culpability falls squarely on the many people who actually specifically voted for this. But it would be nice if those people would try to learn from and admit their incredibly disastrous error in judgement.
  
  Breaking the red and blue duopoly is achieved by not supporting red and blue.
  
  No, it really and very obviously is not.

"The gang saves Palestine"

Cue sunny intro

This is so fitting it's uncanny

It's nice to see that Democrats suddenly care about genocide.

You all were perfectly accepting of it under Genocide Joe, and even nominated him to be your presidential candidate. You're also conveniently just ignoring that the genocide continued until the literal last day of his presidency.

Turns out the only moral genocide is Democrat genocide. The millisecond Republicans do it we can suddenly all agree that it's abhorrent and there are no excuses for our part in it.

If Biden didn’t allow Israel to flatten Gaza we wouldn’t be here.

If Biden didn’t veto ceasefire at the UN multiple times we wouldn’t be here.

If Biden didn’t send the bombs to Israel we wouldn’t be here.

If Biden didn’t lie about the rape and beheadings we wouldn’t be here.

If Biden didn’t provide Israel with the political cover, including proposing sanctions on the ICC, we wouldn’t be here.

If Biden did what Reagan did in 1982 and demanded that Israel stop, we wouldn’t be here. Instead in private he was an enthusiastic supporter of Israel’s war in 1982 as he evidently was during his presidency.

I could go on…

Did biden do stupid shit? Sure. Did he made it worse? Yup. Was his at times clear and present dementia a deciding factor why trump has become president? Absofuckinglutely.

Is Biden the one proclaiming gaza a Trump realty project?

Most fucking certainly not.
- Something that's really frustrating to me is that it's often deemed "not allowed" to point out that the Democrats (and Biden in particular) are trash fires that are hugely culpable for the situation we're in now (that is, embracing fascism) because people assume that holding Democrats and the DNC responsible is incompatible with "voting blue." I think the "undecided" movement during the primaries was great and probably a big part of why Biden was shuffled off of the ticket; it may have forced the DNC to do the bare minimum in fighting Trump by putting a (more) viable candidate on the ballot. I voted for Harris - unfortunately "Just vote!" didn't work :\
People who are too moronic to understand the tightrope that any good faith administration is walking in the middle east and think it's "just as bad" to give in to a fascist takeover instead are too far gone, and should start taking whatever meds are required asap.

Also, why are you fetching alleged Biden comments made decades before his presidency and current events you sad dog? Good luck seeing Trump being less enthusiastic

P.S. The intercept is a shit source
I think you mean if people understood inflation was caused by the pandemic and Trumps monetary policy we wouldn't be here.

The number one factor in the election was the economy. Sadly, regarding Palestine, I think democrats would loss as many votes as they gained by taking a harder stance.

It's kinda fascinating how every single comment section about another Trump news is filled with folks dogging on a minority who voted third-party and not the, what was it, third of the country (?) who didn't vote at all.

Do you all really think that those who trully didn't vote because of the Palestine would somehow change the final outcome? Were they that numerous?

This is a genuine question, I'm not trying to be snarky.

Given the highly political atmosphere of Lemmy, I have the impression that most users vote hard. Most in the liberal side were vocal about their desire to vote Kamala to prevent *gestures broadly* from happening. However, users from the tankie instances, amounting to a third of lemmy, regularly decried the democrat option, instead urging protest votes or abstention.

The world isn’t lemmy, lemmy is lemmy. And lemmy has plenty people to clown on for actively choosing this.
- It's not just lemmy, it's something I've seen on other sites as well as traditional media (repeated by news anchors, commentators and even politicians). It's just weird to me that the focus is on such a small number of voters instead of those who simply didn't care enough/were prevented from voting/weren't successfully convinced by the democrats.
  
  It might be different elsewhere but I can only speak to what I see on lemmy, and it seems appropriate here. I don’t check out other sites or watch the news enough to notice their talking points, so I can’t speak on that. I do know that I saw similar calls for protest voting in 2016, and they left a strong negative impression on me.
  
  Understandable, it just seems like a wider sentiment based on my limited exposure to this topic.
  
  Irl, I do see hear complaints about non-voters. Fewer of them on lemmy, where words were aimed mostly at voter disenfranchisement efforts, but I did see them during the election.
  
  Yeah, I'm not from or in the US which is why my question was mostly about what I've seen online and some media snippets. I have no idea about IRL sentiment, though I assume it varies like with everything.
- Vote hard? The 'liberal' side was worried about gestures broadly at what's actually happening in reality right this very moment. Lemmy isn't an island, it's a megaphone.
  
  Full ballot, urging others to do the same.
  
  Dude, this is a trans-positive communist Linux forum. We are far from representative of society at large. Lemmy is as much a megaphone as my mouth is a cup. Take a sip, if you dare.
  
  Take a sip, if you dare.
  
  Don't threaten me with a good time.
  
  I guess we know where you stand then.
America has a FTTP voting system, so time has distilled its presidential election into to 2 real choices. This was one, and the milquetoast status quo party is the other. By that merit, not voting for one party helps the other party, though not as much as voting for the opposite. In our case, the opponent of the milquetoast party is the crypto Nazi party.

I'm not the other person you replied to, but personally I think there was a clear choice between the two candidates in regard to which one was better for the Palestinians given their track records. Granted, maybe not good enough in these voters opinions, given that they enabled a genocide in the first place and refused to swiftly correct that action.

Besides billionaires and straight, white, conservative, "Christian" men, I honestly don't know who benefits from a Trump/Musk presidency as compared to a Harris/Walz presidency.

I get that democrats weren't good enough, they rarely are in my opinion either, but I do consider them better than this. And yep, she and Biden enabled a genocide, no argument there. I even empathize with those that feel adamant that either we have justice all, or justice for none. But I think we are a little frustrated that in the fatalistic protest, Kamala's opponents ensured the doom of not just Palestinians, but women, LGBT+ folk, and likely many more.

But hey, price of eggs and all too, right?
- Frankly I'm getting sick and tired of every story about Gaza being filled with smug comments blaming everything on liberal Lemmy members. Biden was a shit candidate who was losing badly before Gaza ever happened. Harris was a golden opportunity to pivot the Biden campaign into something that stood a chance of winning and instead Harris ran on a campaign of "I'm exactly like Biden but a little younger" which is the most gobsmackingly stupid decision of a political campaign in at least a couple decades.
  
  Harris didn't lose because of Palestine. I mean it didn't fucking help, but there were plenty of other reasons she lost. So can we please stop with all the annoying smug "are you happy with what you did?" comments? It's getting really fucking old.
  
  Now for what I actually wanted to say.
  
  Besides billionaires and straight, white, conservative, "Christian" men, I honestly don't know who benefits from a Trump/Musk presidency as compared to a Harris/Walz presidency.
  
  Only billionaires are benefiting. Straight, white, conservative, Christian or even men, none of those groups in any combination is benefiting. They may not be getting shafted as hard as others are, but only billionaires are going to see anything even remotely positive out of this.
  
  Sorry hearing "We told ya so" is so irritating to you. The collective focus will shift over time.
  
  You're right, Harris absolutely lost because she wasn't good enough. But yeah, people are going to remind you that the alternative is worse, so that hopefully we can avoid this if there ever is a next time.
  
  Kamala didn't lose because of Palestine. She lost because DNC centrism has been a political dead end since at least 2012. 2020 was the anomaly; Trump only lost because of Covid.
  
  Centrists are just using the Palestine issue as a scapegoat for their own failures. Kamala/Biden was doomed long before Palestine.
  
  Or you could stop and build a string coalition with an action plan.
  
  I am actively looking to join one as soon as there is momentum, because I am certainly not the right candidate for leading a political movement, nor do I think I'm a great fit to generate that early momentum.
  
  But no matter what, I don't think the group sentiment should be "give me a perfect candidate, or I'm helping the Nazis" That seems like a foundational issue that needs to be corrected, don't let perfect be the enemy of good. And relatively speaking, the "good" choice was simply not being Nazis.
  
  Adapt to the situation, and as part of the progress maybe we can adopt a better voting system that doesn't force you to make one of 2 choices for high level government positions. But don't delude yourself into thinking there was any other option. Our choices were genocide, or more genocide, and voters that didn't want the genocide candidate ironically helped the more genocide candidate. They should regret that.
  
  Stop focusing on what was/could have been. Focus on what is/can be. A house divided refers to self before all.
  
  I honestly don't think division is the intention of most folks like myself, I think it's a venting of frustration and an honest plea for people to reflect on the past so that history doesn't repeat itself immediately.
  
  Maybe some people want an apology, but that sounds silly. Personally I just want to see reflection and a commitment to avoiding the same issue going forward. Cause I'm gonna be blunt, it's impossible to please everyone in a 2 party system, and I guarantee you the Democrats are going to disappoint you next time, but can we agree that they are better than the alternative? And can we embrace the reality of the 2 party system while we strive to improve it?
  
  You want us to reflect on how voting for a secret Nazi is... Better than voting for a flamboyant Nazi? How about you reflect on what you can do to either get Democrats to stop forwarding Nazi candidates with Nazi policies OR elect candidates who aren't Nazis?
  
  And we have reached the root of the issue I was describing. Yes, democrats aren't perfect, rather it's accurate to say they are awful. But you seem to actively be dodging the point that they are better than the alternative whether you like them or not.
  
  As for reflecting on what we can do to stop them, I would say that we could start by not dissuading voters, and instead encourage them to vote every time, especially in primaries, so that a more preferable candidate can be had. In this election, that wouldn't have done jack shit, but maybe it could have replaced Biden in the previous election. And maybe if you want to tackle the core problems with the DNC, we will have to elect candidates campaigning on doing so within lower levels of government, which will require us to encourage voters, not dissuade them.
  
  Getting mad because people point out that your impotent rage isnt a solution, and instead gets in the way of a solution, also isn't a solution. What ideas do you have?
  
  Edit: Also, in case it wasnt clear, calling Kamala a secret Nazi makes no sense, so I ignored you. I'll grant you that democrats absolutely are in bed with corporate interests, and that they absolutely should not have continued to aid a genocide, but that is a far cry from the actual Nazi insanity that is Trump/Musk.
  
  But yeah, people are going to remind you that the alternative is worse, so that hopefully we can avoid this if there ever is a next time.
  
  The thing is though that I don't think anyone doesn't already know that. The people who legitimately didn't vote for Harris in the general election won't care because they'll say "I didn't vote for Trump either, so it's not my fault" and no amount of everyone telling them it is or explaining the reality of our terrible first past the post system is going to change that. You're basically preaching to the choir here and it's frankly nothing but a distraction from addressing the real and pressing issue of the white nationalist fascists literally seizing power right now. The thousandth "told ya so" post isn't doing anything more than the last 990 did besides stroking your own ego.
  
  I mean, it's also part of the discourse in social media, too. The person I replied to actually asked for the opinion related to those who share the same sentiment as I do. In this instance, it is kinda on you that you kept reading the thread.
  
  Though I would agree that the overall focus should be on what we do from here. And to that, I'd like to see some form of organized community action, protest, or something like that start to pick up steam so that I could support or participate in.
  
  The issue is that it's practically the only thing being commented in any post related to Palestine and it's drowning out all the useful discussion that needs to be taking place. Pick any post about Palestine and look at the comments and the overwhelming majority of them are some variation on "boy, I bet all those people who refused to vote for Harris are so happy now", which is about as useful a comment as all the idiots that used to rush to post "First" on articles back in the day.
  
  These "told you so" comments are so pervasive it's starting to feel vaguely like astroturfing. A bunch of comments encouraging non-Republican voters to fight amongst themselves and drowning out any possible productive discussion or organization sure sounds like it would be a brilliant move by the fascist supporters. I'm not suggesting everyone making those comments is astroturfing or a troll, but the absolute way that's blanketing all discussion around Palestine sure does make me wonder if some of them are.
  
  There was a poll of non-voters who voted four years ago. The number one reason they gave for not voting was the genocide in Gaza at 29%. I was surprised by this, but yeah you can potentially say she lost because of Palestine.
  
  I agree she was a shit candidate who, if anything, aimed to the right of Biden. The Democrats are terrible. I still voted against Donald Trump. I'm not here to gloat at all, but look at the situation the world is in now.
  
  Thiel is white and certainly not straight, and I guarantee he is immensely benefiting.
It's equally fascinating how people like you think that only one group can be to blame for an electoral loss and that blame can't be shared.

And if their protest vote changed nothing, what was the point of it?
- You're accusing me of something I never did. I'm asking because pretty much all the blame I've seen is put on those protest voters and the topic of non-voters rarely, if ever, comes up in these comments.
  
  I very specifically said "people like you" because I did not know if you were amongst the people I was talking about.
  
  To me saying "people like you" implies similarity between "them" and the person you're saying it to but whatever.
  
  To reiterate, I don't think these people are blameless (every bit of resistance counts after all) but I feel like for many normal people, politicians and media commentators, they (pro-Palestinian protesters, LGBT folks etc) became a scapegoat that completely stole the focus from all the rest of the potential voters who didn't feel strongly enough to oppose an openly fascist candidate. It's just weird to see.
  
  I don't think they are being a scapegoat at all. I think they are being told they share in the blame. And they refuse to admit it, some to the point of saying ludicrous things like "ethnic cleansing isn't as bad as genocide and Harris wanted genocide."
  
  There is a lot of blame to be shared.
  
  Perhaps I'm just unlucky enough to stumble mostly on comments focusing on them. I was however lucky enough I didn't have to read explanations like the one you've quoted here yet.
  
  There is a lot of blame to be shared.
  
  That's for sure.
Yes, because everyone who could have voted and didn't bears responsibility for looking the other way while Trump gained the presidency.

And everyone who was vocal at any point about not voting for Harris for any reason is culpable for assisting Trump in gaining the presidency, and for influencing others to do the same.
- Got it. It's all the fault of people, not the inept dnc for this situation.
  
  Well, both.
  
  Seems to most in this thread dnc is faultless though
  
  I hear you... I see tons of dnc hate here too
  
  A lot of the people who are defending the DNC are not the ones decrying it.
  
  Which many seem to not want to see or hear
  
  It's a world filled with people who believe what feels good
  
  You made a fucking choice. Take some responsibility for it
  
  Just like it was their choice to do the opposite of whatever got them enthusiasm
  
  the party can never fail only be failed
- See, that's kind of what I'm talking about. Based on the results I've seen, all the votes for independent candidates combined amounted to less than 2% of all counted votes. Do you really think those 2% had a bigger impact on the end result than the 90 or so million of people who didn't vote at all?
  
  I'm not saying they had no impact, it just feels weird to focus so much on those who cared enough to take part in the democratic process while treating the rest as a secondary issue.
  
  To clarify, this is just my observation based on internet comments and some news snippets I've seen. I understand things might look different IRL and from a perspective of someone in the middle of this madness.
There's a lot of frustration at the segment of the population who 1) vocally said that Harris would be just as bad as trump in regards to Gaza 2) loudly argued that failure to listen to them in regards to Gaza would cost the Democrats the election, and 3) said that anyone who was willing to vote for Harris despite not perfectly walking the line in regards to Gaza was a supporter of genocide. "The lesser of two evils is still a vote for genocide", and "it's not like it can be more genocide" are both things that have been said to me.

So, according to the people in question: yes, they are that numerous. I'm incredibly sad that I seem to have been right, but also fuck you to all the absolute assholes who accused me of supporting genocide because I'd rather the president get a middling cease fire and shamefully keep sending munitions to Israel than have us actively send troops to ethnically cleanse Gaza. Congrats! You got what you wanted! No more war in Gaza, because we're going to finish it now.
Even if they're in they're not large enough to matter, electorally, they were consistently aggressively smug and superior to anyone who said that maybe trump wasn't going to be the savior of the Palestinians, as evidence by his explicit words.
It's cathartic to be mad at people who were condescending towards you when they were wrong, even if you'd rather not be right, purely because they called you a bad person for wanting the same thing but thinking their way to get it wouldn't work.
- Well, for point 2, they were kind of right. It's mostly a self fulfilling prophecy, but when a sizable chunk of your voting block says "take this position if you want my vote" and then you take the opposite position it really shouldn't come as a surprise if you subsequently lose the election. That 100% was on Harris.
  
  Whether Harris would have been better than Trump (for Gaza) is perhaps a more interesting question. Ultimately Israel is going to be using their own troops for this not US troops because US troops aren't going to go along with gunning down unarmed civilians in mass the way the Israeli troops will. Whether it's Trump or Harris that wasn't going to change. The biggest difference is just one of political posturing. Harris would have made disapproving statements and basically said "we're very disappointed in Israel" while still sending the exact same weapons and funds Trump is sending. Maybe Israel would have played things more low key, maybe not, we'll never know now. So point 1 is kind of a wash.
  
  Point 3 is really a more abstract moral question I suppose. At what point does something cross over into "supporting genocide". Does sending money to the Israeli government count? What about doing business with companies that do so? What about having the power to do something about it and instead choosing to do nothing? I think we can all agree that Trump absolutely supports genocide. The argument for if Harris did is far less concrete, and for people who voted for Harris (or I guess Trump for that matter) more nebulous still.
  
  The real problem ultimately though is that none of this existed in a vacuum. If this was literally a referendum on how the US should respond to Israel that would be one thing, but that was such a tiny slice of a much bigger discussion. The biggest and most concerning of which was Trump essentially admitting that he was planning on staging a coup of the US government which meant no matter how the Gaza situation was going to play our Trump absolutely could not be let anywhere near the office of the president.
  
  The election is over though, Harris lost because she ran a shit campaign on proven losing policy. People need to get over that and focus on actually dealing with the shit sandwich we've collectively been handed instead of continuing to point fingers and argue about whose fault it was.
  
  The election is over though, Harris lost because she ran a shit campaign on proven losing policy. People need to get over that and focus on actually dealing with the shit sandwich we've collectively been handed instead of continuing to point fingers and argue about whose fault it was.
  
  I mean this with all sincerity: fuck off.
  Arguing that letting this and everything else happen is better than what Harris brought to the table doesn't just get forgotten because the people who said this would be better are upset they were wrong and don't want to be blamed.
  
  The "winning policy" is evidently "ethnic cleansing". That's what came of all this, do you get that? Milquetoast ceasefire and continuing the slow push towards a two state solution lost to ethnic cleansing.
  
  Whether it's Trump or Harris that wasn't going to change. The biggest difference is just one of political posturing.
  
  Trump has already increased the weapons being sent, rolling back a Biden administration block on certain weapons. You can't just say "no, they won't use US troops" when we're on an article about trump wanting to use US troops for ethnic cleansing. Why do you think Israel gets a say in what troops go in? It's not like they can stop US if we want to send ours in. Why do you think American troops wouldn't do these things?
  
  We're not at the hypothetical stage here. There have already been concrete changes in policy that are beyond "posturing".
  
  The real problem ultimately though is that none of this existed in a vacuum. If this was literally a referendum on how the US should respond to Israel that would be one thing, but that was such a tiny slice of a much bigger discussion.
  
  Yes, and that's exactly the point. Even if their policies on Gaza were exactly the same, which they very much were not, it would still be better to have voted for Harris because of so many reasons, none of which mattered to the people who swore to not vote for her over Gaza.
  
  This is being civil about things. We're not saying that the people who refused Harris because of Gaza are transphobic, antivax, anti-education, anti abortion, racist misogynists, even though supporting Harris evidently makes one a genocidal racist in their eyes.
  
  Maybe if people said "you know what? Maybe I made a mistake" there wouldn't be such animosity, but here we are. Better a mask off fascist than an imperfect compromise.
  
  And don't worry, I am doing what I can to deal with the shit sandwich they wanted us to have. That doesn't keep me from having the ability, nor seeing the need for, needling people who thought that this would be better for Gaza than what Harris wanted.
  
  I mean this with all sincerity: fuck off.
  
  Same to you you annoying whiny git.
  
  That doesn't keep me from having the ability, nor seeing the need for, needling people who thought that this would be better for Gaza than what Harris wanted.
  
  Except you're not doing that, you're just being annoying and pissing off people that fucking voted for Harris for no god damn reason. The election is over, Harris lost, and now we need to deal with fucking Cheeto Mussolini and instead of doing something useful you're spending every opportunity to bitch and moan about how everyone is getting what they deserve now. At this point I'm just going to stop reading the comments of any post about Palestine because the comment sections are all just cesspools of people wanking off about how right they were this entire time.
  
  Harris never should have backed Israel and it along with all the other idiotic policies she pushed cost her the election just like everyone said it would. People were begging her to run on better policies and instead her campaign was "vote for me or else" which failed to convince enough people. It sucks and now we're all suffering because of it, but as much as it's the fault of the people that didn't vote for her it's even more her and the DNC's fault for running a crap campaign. It is literally a politician's job to convince people to vote for them, and Harris failed at her job.
  
  If you voted for Harris you're not the person being talked to, are you? They asked why people were mad at those that voted third party.
  Why would I be mad at people who voted for Harris?
  
  I don't buy the whole "you're not allowed to be mad at the voters!” thing. They had the same information I did, and decided that instead of saying "gee, the easiest thing I can do to in anyway stop the obvious bad things that could happen is to vote against trump" they did some form of "not that".
  
  If it's a choice between the zoo and the crotch kicking factory, and three vote for the zoo, four for the crotch kicking, and three more couldn't be bothered to vote, *I'm gonna be mad at the people who voted for the crotch kicking as well as the people who didn't vote", and I'm gonna be frustrated when they say it's the zoo's fault for not advertising more and we need to move on and hold hands through the kicking.
  
  Sure, but the overwhelming majority of people on here voted for Harris even if they really didn't want to and continuing to bitch and moan about everyone that didn't, the overwhelming majority of which aren't even on Lemmy isn't doing anything useful.
  
  There seems to be this group on here that's very black and white. During the election you weren't allowed to say anything negative about Harris or complain about first Biden and then Harris supporting Israel or you were called a Trump supporter. Nothing short of declaring her the most perfect candidate ever satisfied them. It was fucking stupid of her to endorse Biden's already losing platform including his support of Israel and that cost her the election. Saying it was going to cost her the election shouldn't have been a controversial thing but to some on here it was.
  
  It was already exhausting when it was going on during the election and it's even more exhausting now. Harris literally doesn't matter anymore. Whether she would have been better for Gaza or not is an entirely academic question at this point unless you've got a time machine (and if you do go back and convince George Washington that first past the post voting is an idiotic idea).
  
  I just want to see discussion about what can be done to oppose Trump and help in some way Palestine, but instead it's a non-stop parade of comments about how anyone who complained about Harris supporting Israel is terrible and this is all their fault.
  
  As for your analogy, it's more like the choice was between the crotch kicking factory and the anal raped without lube factory and a bunch of people complained that if they insist on being the crotch kicking factory nobody is going to want to go there. So 3 people voted for the crotch kicking factory, 4 voted for anal rape, 2 voted for the zoo, and 3 people stayed home. Then everyone who voted for the crotch kicking factory got angry and said it's the fault of the people who voted for the zoo that anal rape won.
  
  I'm just as frustrated that Trump won, but what I'm not is surprised. Disappointed absolutely, but not surprised. The Democrats have been failing this country for decades. People are only going to keep voting for the lesser evil that sees things getting slightly worse election after election for so long before they start thinking there's no point.
  
  If you really want to apportion blame for this mess the most to blame is first Trump, then the GOP, then Trump voters, then the DNC, then Harris, then 3rd party and non-voters. The DNC needed to realize decades ago that it doesn't matter how many big corporate cheques they cash when the policies they're adopting are turning away voters that they desperately need. Harris should have looked at the train wreck of Biden's campaign and realized she needed to do something different. Third party voters needed to understand that with first past the post you don't get to vote for the candidate you want, you have to vote against the candidate you don't want.
It was a huge talking point before the election. We really needed to punish Democrats for not stopping Isreal.
It's funny because millions of people did vote, but it was never counted. And unlike 2020... These uncounted votes are proven 🤷
- That's another thing I didn't see brought up nearly enough. Granted, I'm not extremely tuned into American media so maybe it is a hot topic there but yeah, thanks for mentioning it.
Funny to see them cry over 3rd party that at least showed up and helped dems get seats, instead of the people who didn’t come out to vote because the DNC can’t energise anyone saying the same nothing will change bullshit
I mean if you're going to dog on minorities then you gotta dog on the white people he has majority support from.

I'm so fucking tired of seeing this comment, because it's just so unbelievably dumb. It would make (some level of) sense in posts about Elon taking over the government and immigrants being sent to Guantanamo Bay, but here? Like, just genuinely fucking stupid. And yet people keep fucking making them in all news threads about Palestine.

Can anyone here actually show me examples of people saying that Trump wouldn't do this? Because all I saw was people saying that Palestine is going to be fucked regardless, and they didn't want to cast their vote for someone who was going to support genocide. Meanwhile, comments like this one imply those people thought Palestine would be saved by not voting for Dems, which is a straw man.

Did you guys just forget how much happened under the Dems, and think Kamala winning would actually have improved things for Palestine? Is that it? Do you think it's somehow worse for Palestinians now?

Here is an article from July 2023: Israel Is Officially Annexing the West Bank

December 2023: Nearly 100,000 Gaza buildings may be damaged, satellite images show

9th of August 2024: ‘Everything is legitimate’: Israeli leaders defend soldiers accused of rape

30th of August 2024: Harris says she won’t change US policy on arming Israel, stresses need for hostage deal

Stop with this comment in Palestine posts already. It's seriously the dumbest fucking place you can make them. Go make these comments in a post about Trump censoring scientists or something.

EDIT:

So many downvotes across all my comments here (at least 26 in this comment as of right now), but not a single person has managed to actually answer me. No one can show me people who voted third party (or didn't vote) saying that Trump is better for Palestine, and no one can answer how are things materially and concretely worse for Palestinians under Trump. Someone even tried to lecture me about how Trump is worse for America - as if I hadn't literally said that already in this fucking comment.

This is why people use the term "Blue MAGA"; it might not be as bad as Trump MAGA, but it's just as delusional and cult like. The one way in which Dems and Reps are the exact fucking same, is the one that people are choosing to shout about how much better the Dems would have been. If you are one of those people, next time you are thinking to yourself "why are so many people uncritical, unquestioning, believe everything they hear, and have a tribe mentality, etc.", look to yourself for the answer.

Gonna leave this thread now, so any further replies I will answer when I am back on.

comments like this one imply those people thought Palestine would be saved by not voting for Dems

Reps calling him genocide Joe was indeed implying this
- We're not talking about Reps though. We are talking about people who would usually vote for Dems, but because of their stance on Palestine either didn't vote or voted third party. Can you show me examples of people on Lemmy who voted third party or abstained that said Reps would be better for Palestinians?
  
  Yes. Verdant Banana.
  
  Asking for such evidence is a classic manipulation technique of conservatives and will be discarded as untrue anyway the moment it's delivered.
  
  Off course, how convenient for you.
  
  I'm a Socialist btw, but go on with your excuses.
- What about calling him Butcher Biden? Or is the Irish MEP also a Russian troll?
  
  Claire Daly is absolutely pro-Russian, yeah.
  
  No longer an MEP thankfully, her and that other clown Mick Wallace were both voted out..
https://lemmy.world/comment/11884455

https://lemmy.world/comment/13088061

https://lemmy.world/post/2249362

https://lemmy.world/comment/8375466
- Did you read any of what you linked?
  
  I've now read the entirety of the first 2 links, and have not seen a single mention of how Trump would be better for Palestine. If I'm wrong then please provide the quotes where they said Trump would be better.
  
  All that is being said is that people feel disfranchised by the Dems and Kamala. Please actually read what's there and stop seeing what you want to see. In fact the second link straight says:
  
  I’m still voting for Harris, on the basis that change from public pressure is far more unlikely under Trump.
  
  And they literally say it's illogical to vote for Trump:
  
  Despite Trump’s horrendous track record, he has gained in their support solely because of how Harris has campaigned. It’s not logical, but it’s hard to be when directly affected by the actions of the current administration and no prospect for change.
  
  On the third I just did CTRL+F for "trump", and there was nothing about him in regard to Palestine. I didn't even bother with the 4th.
  
  On the road. No time for finding the perfect example. Take that as evidence of absence if you want.

After seeing this sentiment expressed for the 50th time on similar threads, I’m more convinced than ever that: 1.) Many Democrats prefer beating up their left flank to actually opposing Republican ideology, 2.) Many Democrats are somehow pleased that the genocide is proceeding in this fashion because they both get to genocide Palestinians and beat up on their left flank. If Kamala had won, they would have only been able to enjoy half of these pastimes.

Nah. We're all just pissed that these shortsighted idiots decided to try and make a point about biden/harris and trump/vance being the same for Gaza/Palestine (which, clearly, factually, in every possible conceivable way, they are not), and in so doing, ended the longest running democracy in human history, to say nothing of making our lives a fucking hell for the next however many years until this shitshow is over or the country implodes.

It was idiotic, we told them it was idiotic, they argued against it, and they chose to let trump win and now we're all stuck with the fucking bill of their stupidity. All of us.

So yeah, I'm fucking pissed at them, and the trump supporters. At least with the maga asshats you know you're getting idiots marching on parade. We were counting on the dems not being a bunch of fuckwits.

But here we are, sitting in a shit timeline, eating a shit sandwich together.

A sandwich we all said we'd have to fucking eat if this felon rapist piece of shit clown got elected again.

It's just so fucking exhausting. God fucking damn it, and people like you trying to blame those of us that went out and voted and tried to keep democracy going for another round. We're not the bad guys here, and we absolutely get to fucking bag on all you dipshits that chose to let this happen by not exercising your right, and fucking DUTY, to vote.
- The real failure of the Democrats wasn't even on Gaza. The day Biden won the election, I was saying that it didn't matter, and that Trump or a similar Republican would be back in power in 2024. Why? Because it was abundantly obvious, even then, well before Gaza, that he wasn't going to do the things that needed to be done to keep Trump out of power.
  
  The 2020 election was the anomaly. DNC milquetoast centrism is a dead philosophy and has been politically nonviable since 2012 at the latest. Biden only won by a fluke in 2020 because Trump managed to so massively screw up the covid response. If covid hadn't happened, or if Trump hadn't actively screwed it up so much, he would have won in 2020.
  
  Biden represents a philosophy that voters have rejected again and again. Yet the Democrats will never fucking learn.
  
  Even if by some miracle Kamala had won, all that would have changed was that Trump or another fascist would have won in 2028, because again, she wasn't going to do anything substantial.
  
  People ultimately didn't even stay home just because of Gaza. They stayed home because they were tired of voting for a failed party again and again, election after election, because "democracy was on the line."
  
  Here's a hard fucking truth about democracy. For most people, democracy hasn't been worth jack shit. Remember, the bottom 90% of the country doesn't actually live in a democracy and hasn't for decades. US democracy died a long time ago. People just got tired of propping up the facade and decided to finally let the rotten edifice collapse.
  
  Want someone to blame for the current Trump term? Blame Biden for appointing Merrick fucking Garland. And it's clear that even now, the Democratic leadership hasn't learned a damn thing. The Democratic Party needs to be burned to ashes. It is irredeemable.
  
  And Garland dragging his feet on prosecuting trump, and Democrats who voted to confirm horrible picks for every position, especially the courts. I didn't see Obama closing gitmo either.
- Why not be mad at Dems for not doing a better job and having better candidates?
  
  That’s like Burger King serving poop burgers and you’re pissed that people stopped eating shit burgers cuz now Burger King is closed and they built a Chick Fil A in it’s place.
  
  That may be the dumbest analogy I've ever seen.
  
  It’s a good analogy and I stand by it

BlUeMaGa

It literally is a perfect example of "Blue MAGA" to make these comments in posts about Palestine, as if anyone ever though Trump would be better for Palestine, or as if the Dems hadn't been the ones in power until last November and Kamala was still "unwavering" in her support of Israel.

Here is a bit of a refresher on all that was happening in Palestine while the Dems were in power and Kamala was "unwavering" in her support.

If you don't wanna sound like Blue MAGA, go make these comments on literally any other thread about what the US is doing, not ones about Palestine.
- These people can't stop shadowboxing with people who supposedly withheld their votes. It's weird. How many people who otherwise would have voted for Kamala stayed home because of their ongoing support of the genocide in Gaza? Do we even know? And if it was the decisive issue causing the Democratic defeat, what is the political lesson learned?
  
  I can't help but feel this understandable anger is completely misdirected. Or, maybe they support what is going on in Gaza and they're annoyed that a critical part of their voting coalition felt otherwise?
  
  These useful idiots are working very hard in making sure that no political lessons will be learned and that next time the DNC will present the American people with yet another ever-so-slightly-less-Fascism-loving candidate than the Republicans.
  
  Just like Trump and the Republican Party leadership has muppets dangling from their strings who will gleefully wallow on the pain and misery of others to defend their leaders, so does the Democrat Party leadership have their own muppets dangling from their strings who with just as much glee wallow in the pain and misery of other to defend their leaders.
  
  People whose response to the actions of one killer is to say "should've voted for our killer instead" have literally no sense of proportion or empathy.

Yeah, alienating people for not supporting genocide is such an excellent move. Did you happen to work as a strategist with Harris campaign because this is right up their alley.

When you refuse to pick the lesser of two evils, what you are actually saying is you're comfortable with either one.
- In a real life trolley problem, you are supposed to blame the ones driving the train and tying up people to tracks, not the guy pulling the lever.
  
  Yes not voting was stupid, but it's dumber to actually think they hold the blame. The dems won't even acknowledge being pro genocide was a bad move and it's because they feel confident their base has been manipulated to blame a scape goat.
  
  What kind of change are we to expect if we can't even be vocal about something so ridiculous as supporting genocide even after most of us held the line and voted for it anyways. Keep them accountable and stop giving them an easy out.
  
  You can be vocal about it and still vote for the lesser evil in order to reduce harm and save lives.
  
  This is a thread about what Trump is currently doing and the most upvoted comment is blaming voters. I don't know what alienating people after the election serves. It's literally going to make sure they repeat the same behavior, doubly so if the dems feel confident enough to run on apathy a second time.
  
  My point is that currently, most here seem to be vocal about the wrong thing. They voted stupidly but we're goaded into it by a party that clearly does not represent its constituantes anymore. We should be asking the party to change but we are doing the opposite.
  
  Exactly. The truth is that the current DNC is utterly incapable of actually winning a presidential election, and they have been incapable of it for more than a decade. 2020 was an anomaly; they won only due to covid. Fixating on Gaza will only ensure that the fundamental mistakes aren't corrected and that Republicans win again in 2028.
  
  You can be vocal about it and still vote for the lesser evil in order to reduce harm and save lives.
  
  This is what almost every legitimate progressive voice I knew did.
  
  It is what I did.
  
  It is what every leftist I know did.
  
  When will libs understand leftists are serious in their coalition building and stop existentially questioning the trustworthiness of our intentions?
  
  Disagree with me, lets talk policy, let us hash out together the 1000 ways things were able to get this bad... but please fucking STOP categorically calling into question our intentions or ability to make the necessary play none of us are excited about. This is baby stuff, leftist discourse discusses this stuff constantly, terminally online leftists by and large get it trust me.
  
  we voted for Harris
  
  we voted for Biden
  
  we voted for Clinton
  
  The people who didn't turn out to vote weren't highly informed leftists and more importantly weren't the kind of people who give a shit about hearing what terminally upset leftists had to say. If you think Sam Seder, Emma Vigeland, Krystal Ball and Kyle Kulinsky, The Rational National, Benjamin Dixon etc... had an impact on unengaged low information voters you are making an absurd leap of thinking... and they advocated for voting for Harris anyways, go back, check the receipts.
  
  https://youtu.be/9qZWA32-OfM
  
  Most importantly, the ones who didn't turn out to vote were in states that don't matter anyway. Harris actually got more votes than Biden in most key swing states.
- When you refuse to see that picking evil will never lead to anything other than additional harm and suffering, you're saying you're comfortable with that.
  
  How can you take issue with the person who chose another path and not the one you literally described as "evil?"
  
  and by not picking either "evil" you allowed the worse one to win causing additional harm and suffering, and you're comfortable with that
  
  you chose nothing thinking your inaction was the start of the great revolution that will fix the world
  
  i'm thinking logic is not your strong suit
  
  Once again the evil person is given a free pass here while you deride those who chose another path. These evil people have deluded you into thinking that every problem is a trolley problem to the point that you're supporting genocide while trying to claim the moral high ground. Explain that logic...
  
  praise be! the lord hath blessed you with the true internal sight where not getting involved absolves you of any culpability. hail hail the great one! you shall never touch evil or be sullied in any way.
  
  YOU ARE PURE!!!!!
  
  There's the delusion again. The only way to involve yourself is by participating in the rigged game? Yeah I don't think so.
  
  enjoy trump
  
  And here the mask comes off as you make yourself indistinguishable from every other Trump supporter.
  
  i guess you'll never understand tactical voting
  
  coming to the conclusion that i'm a trump supporter tells me everything about your ability
It's a fucking war. Sometimes the only option you get is to put off losing. We didn't do that, in no small part because of idiot idealists who apparently refuse to understand a concept so basic even chimps get it. Now, thanks to that and SO much more, even being hopeful is approaching the realm of deluded fantasy.

I have no problem alienating people who think their own precious idea of morality is somehow so sacrosanct it can't be compromised even to actually save the lives they pretend to care about.
- "It's a fucking war that's why we need to give them bombs, arms, jets, cash, and our full support. It's our only option"
  
  Look, I get it, and I'd be grieving too if I openly supported such atrocities, and it all turned out to be for nothing, but you're eventually going to find yourself standing alone with the other RadLibs as nobody finds diet-Republican ideals appealing.
  
  I feel like there's very little chance you intentionally misinterpreted my comment, so in the interest of keeping civil discourse alive: what's happening in Palestine isn't a war, it's a massacre, and I was referring to the nascent civil war and fascist takeover of the US when I said 'war' (and to the things like rampant persecution of LGB (and especially T) people, the open violence against the poor and minorities, etc.).
  
  I did misinterpret you, and I agree with what you're saying in this comment, but I don't think people like Harris, Biden, or Clinton are on our side in this war, nor are the party leaders who pushed them on us.
  
  I don't disagree they're not on our side, I just think they'd have been much less likely to plunge the country into a fascist hellscape and persecute the people I care about.
- Kamala/Biden were already losing before the Palestine conflict started. Palestine did not cause Kamala to lose the election. She could have used Palestine as a signal that she intended to truly strike out in a new direction, but she chose not to do that.
  
  Unfortunately, that kind of radical break from the past was the only hope any Democrat had in 2024. People have this weird view that 2024 is an anomaly. It's not. 2020 was the anomaly. Trump only lost in 2020 because of covid. If not for covid, Trump would have easily won in 2020.
  
  You might as well be blaming Gaza for the Libertarian party not winning. The existing Democratic party is as nonviable at the presidential level as the Libertarian party is. The current Democratic leadership is fundamentally incapable of winning a national presidential election. They literally are not capable of it. They got lucky in 2020 due to a disaster of historic proportions, but in normal times, they are not capable of wielding a candidate that will win a presidential election.
  
  Only radical change and reform in the DNC can change this. And this is ultimately why scapegoating the handful of people who actually stayed home due to Gaza is counterproductive. If you think Kamala lost in 2024 due to Gaza, you're going to be sorely, sorely disappointed in 2028 when another DNC centrist fails to win, even when the Gaza issue is no longer on the table.
I won't deny that it was a stupid move by the dems, but at the same time choosing to abstain from one of the most important elections in US history because you don't want to choose between the lesser of two evils is just naive. Life is literally full of choosing between the lesser of two evils, inside and outside of politics. And I understand that the situation in Gaza is fucked up, but I also know that by abstaining it only made the situation worse. I know its not 100% their fault as there were many factors that led to Trump winning, but I personally don't think betting with other people's lives is altruistic. I think it's selfish.
We tried gentle. Now we're annoyed and venting because we're powerless.
- And we're getting dragged into the muck by morons and one issue virtue signaling idiots who are no more informed than them.
What have you actually done about this genocide aside from not making the effort to vote for someone?

Have you made any phone calls? Written any emails? Visited any politicians' offices?
Just fuck off. This was your choice.
Honest question. Are you stupid, or mentally disabled?
- Why because I don't blindly support and fiercely defend a strategy that tanked nearly three Democratic presidential candidates in a row?
  
  Nah, it's definitely going to work the fourth time. I'm back on board.
  
  I'm so sorry, I didn't realize you were literally mentally challenged.
  
  You used that line already. Odd that such an intelligent being as yourself couldn't formulate some new material.

Voting the red and blue parties wouldn't have save it either. It's time you accept the reality that the government is rigged. Making the good and best possible decision and not the "lesser evil" or other bullshit propaganda tells you is what you are supposed to do.

You’re still running around shouting at people?

Stop it and let’s focus on what we are going to do now.

Nah. We had to listen to "gEnOcIDe jOe!!!1!" for the better part of a goddamn year from these people. I've got a LOT more "we fucking told you so" to get out of my system before I'm ready to move on let alone begin to forgive. The threat that is now reality was fully apparent, and these single-issue people still decided to hold the country hostage to "teach the dems a lesson". Fuck them. They've also shown they can't be counted on, so I'm in no hurry to make amends.
- You are nuts. The election was in November and you are still shouting at a little minority of potential allies who you can’t even be sure have voted for Trump. Like someone else said: It’s like you’re hoping for things to get worse just to be able to say “I told you so” over and over again.
  
  I'm not saying they voted for Trump, but they were certainly sowing division against the only candidate likely to defeat him at the polls.
  
  "Not Trump" was NOT a choice on the ballot, and the single, actual candidate with the most votes wins. Any vote not FOR Harris was a tacit vote for Trump. No third party was going to win, and abstaining is effectively saying "BoTh SiDeZ aRE tHe SAmE!".
  
  They had a chance to help stop this and chose to do anything but. Again, fuck them.
  
  Like someone else said: It’s like you’re hoping for things to get worse just to be able to say “I told you so” over and over again.
  
  That person is an idiot (I say this not even reading their comment or knowing who you're referring to).
  
  Were people saying Biden was too old also sowing division or were they just criticising?
  
  It doesn’t matter. We’re in this shit now. And have to somehow act together to get out of it again.
  
  Were people saying Biden was too old also sowing division or were they just criticising?
  
  Yes and no. The people who did nothing but repeat and amplify that? Sowing division (see GiveSomeFucks, Return2Ozma, etc)
  
  The people who made valid points but weren't beating that drum continuously? Legit criticism for the most part.
  
  Either way, at the time, it was Biden or Trump, and the same two potential outcomes: Status quo (flawed but not fascism) or speedrun to fascism. There really shouldn't have been a dilemma.
  
  It doesn’t matter. We’re in this shit now. And have to somehow act together to get out of it again.
  
  Good luck to them then. I'll definitely be fighting the good fight, but I will absolutely not be working with the single-issue "oops, I accidentally helped bring fascism by completely failing to acknowledge the existence of a bigger picture" crowd - they're on their own. We couldn't count on them when it mattered, and I will not take that risk again.
  
  Edit: Clarity
  
  As if you could tell who is part of that "single issue" crowd when fighting. You're so caught up mad at a very very small minority who protest voted when you should be mad that we were even given such a shit choice in the first place. It's time for action. Not for crying about people who would not have made a difference in the election. Joe had no chance of winning. Kamala maybe could have had one had she differentiated her campaign and wasn't just Joe 2.0
  
  we were even given such a shit choice in the first place
  
  This is a very important point. The Dems crowned not one, but two weak candidates and refused to change in any way that might have appealed to the voters they lost. The worst part is that they knew Biden's presidency was unpopular and might cost them at the polls but were steadfast in their refusal to change in any meaningful way.
  
  Most Democratic voters were surprised by the loss solely because they don't consume any media that doesn't reinforce their personal biases.