“Communism bad”

It also ignores that Socialism in AES states has generally resulted in mass reductions in poverty, increases in literacy, education, home ownership, and life expectancy.

maybe, before the '56 invasion this could have happened, but I'm dubious. And after Hungary, lol, fuck right off thinking the capitalist world should support your communist brutality.

See every communist nation in history

Putin’s oligarchs.

And where did Putin come from?

For some reason I see them less than few years ago. I wonder why…

probably because they're losing their love of this special military operation slightly exceeding it's 3-days-to-kiev plan. Those dumb sonsabitches brought their dress uniforms for the parades they knew were going to happen.

lol

Mostly this, although Vietnam is doing quite well, especially considering their circumstances.

Cuba is also really interesting...not thriving, to be sure, but you have to end the US blockade before you blame them for their own hardships. And in spite of everything, they have democracy like we've never seen in the west.

Edit: also what beejboytyson said about Cuba.

You could've just typed "No".

All the other things you've typed is nonsense anyways.

Democracy is mathematically impossible

Meanwhile, if you want a historical example then look no further than USSR.

Russia went from a backwards agrarian society where people travelled by horse and carriage to being the first in space in the span of 40 years. Russia showed incredible growth after the revolution that surpassed the rest of the world:

• https://wid.world/document/soviets-oligarchs-inequality-property-russia-1905-2016/
• https://wid.world/document/appendix-soviets-oligarchs-inequality-property-russia-1905-2016-wid-world-working-paper-201710/

USSR provided free education to all citizens resulting in literacy rising from 33% to 99.9%:

• http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/archive/PubEdUSSR.htm
• http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/archive/anglosov.htm
• http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0000/000013/001300eo.pdf
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likbez

USSR doubled life expectancy in just 20 years. A newborn child in 1926-27 had a life expectancy of 44.4 years, up from 32.3 years thirty years before. In 1958-59 the life expectancy for newborns went up to 68.6 years. the Semashko system of the USSR increased lifespan by 50% in 20 years. By the 1960's, lifespans in the USSR were comparable to those in the USA:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Soviet_Union
• https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB5054/index1.html

Quality of nutrition improved after the Soviet revolution, and the last time USSR had a famine was in 1940s. CIA data suggests they ate just as much as Americans after WW2 peroid while having better nutrition:

• https://www.scribd.com/document/430076844/CIA-RDP84B00274R000300150009-5-pdf
• https://artir.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/compar1.png?w=640

USSR moved from 58.5-hour work weeks to 41.6 hour work weeks (-0.36 h/yr) between 1913 and 1960:

• https://books.google.com/books?id=x8JYjwEACAAJ
• https://b-ok.cc/book/2669908/77497f

USSR averaged 22 days of paid leave in 1986 while USA averaged 7.6 in 1996:

• https://www.ilo.org/public/libdoc/ilo/1994/94B09_66_englp2.pdf
• https://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm

In 1987, people in the USSR could retire with pension at 55 (female) and 60 (male) while receiving 50% of their wages at a at minimum. Meanwhile, in USA the average retirement age was 62-67 and the average (not median) retiree household in the USA could expect $48k/yr which comes out to 65% of the 74k average (not median) household income in 2016:

• https://www.ilo.org/public/libdoc/ilo/1994/94B09_66_englp2.pdf
• https://www.cbsnews.com/news/could-you-get-by-on-the-average-americans-retirement-income/

GDP took off after socialism was established and then collapsed with the reintroduction of capitalism:

• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Soviet_Union_GDP_per_capita.gif

The Soviet Union had the highest physician/patient ratio in the world. USSR had 42 doctors per 10,000 population compared to 24 in Denmark and Sweden, and 19 in US:

• http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0735675784900482 (sci-hub for access)
• USSR defeated a smallpox epidemic in a matter of 19 days https://www.rbth.com/history/331857-how-ussr-defeated-black-smallpox
• The Social Consequences of Soviet Immunization Policies https://www.ucis.pitt.edu/nceeer/1997-812-03g-Hoch.pdf

So, how do people who lived under communism feel now that they got a taste of capitalism?

• A remarkable 72% of Hungarians say that most people in their country are actually worse off today economically than they were under communism. Only 8% say most people in Hungary are better off, and 16% say things are about the same. In no other Central or Eastern European country surveyed did so many believe that economic life is worse now than during the communist era. This is the result of almost universal displeasure with the economy. Fully 94% describe the country's economy as bad, the highest level of economic discontent in the hard hit region of Central and Eastern Europe. Just 46% of Hungarians approve of their country's switch from a state-controlled economy to a market economy; 42% disapprove of the move away from communism. The public is even more negative toward Hungary's integration into Europe; 71% say their country has been weakened by the process.

• The most incredible result was registered in a July 2010 IRES (Romanian Institute for Evaluation and Strategy) poll, according to which 41% of the respondents would have voted for Ceausescu, had he run for the position of president. And 63% of the survey participants said their life was better during communism, while only 23% attested that their life was worse then. Some 68% declared that communism was a good idea, just one that had been poorly applied.

• Glorification of the German Democratic Republic is on the rise two decades after the Berlin Wall fell. Young people and the better off are among those rebuffing criticism of East Germany as an "illegitimate state." In a new poll, more than half of former eastern Germans defend the GDR.

• A poll shows that as many as 81 per cent of Serbians believe they lived best in the former Yugoslavia -"during the time of socialism". The survey focused on the respondents' views on the transition "from socialism to capitalism", and a clear majority said they trusted social institutions the most during the rule of Yugoslav communist president Josip Broz Tito. The standard of living during Tito's rule from the Second World War to the 1980s was also assessed as best, whereas the Milosevic decade of the 1990s, and the subsequent decade since the fall of his regime are seen as "more or less the same". 45 percent said they trusted social institutions most under communism with 23 percent choosing the 2001-2003 period when Zoran Djinđic was prime minister. Only 19 per cent selected present-day institutions.

• 75% of Russians have expressed increasingly positive opinions about the Soviet Union over the years. Only a small portion of those surveyed said they had negative associations with the Soviet Union. The economic deficit, long lines and coupons were named by 4% of respondents each, while the Iron Curtain, economic stagnation and political repressions were named by 1% each, the Levada Center said.

• Adult mortality increased enormously in Russia and other countries of the former Soviet Union when the Soviet system collapsed 30 years ago. https://archive.ph/9Z12u
• Former Soviet Countries See More Harm From Breakup https://news.gallup.com/poll/166538/former-soviet-countries-harm-breakup.aspx

The Free market paradise goes East chapters in Blackshirts and Reds details some more results of the transition to capitalism.

From your first source

Figure 1 shows that China had very low inequality levels in the late 1970s, but it is now approaching the US, where income concentration remains the highest among the countries shown

It's hard for me to look at % increases or "X out of poverty" or "This person makes 1+ what they did before!". I get fed the same stuff about how great America is doing because of our "numbers". Without being there it's hard to grasp if what you're saying is anything better, worse, or just par for the course of a developing nation with such a high output with manufacturing.

90% of families in the country own their home giving China one of the highest home ownership rates in the world. What’s more is that 80% of these homes are owned outright, without mortgages or any other leans. https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshepard/2016/03/30/how-people-in-china-afford-their-outrageously-expensive-homes

Seeing this statement and reading the link, they have absolutely nothing to do with each other and you make it seem like it's a "quote" from the article (I'm guessing it's from the 93 page research paper I'm reading through). They would've just been better off publishing whatever data they talked about researchers definitely having, the whole thing read like an Elon Musk press conference...

“To sustain poverty reduction gains, China will focus more on achieving endogenous development in areas that have been lifted out of poverty and introduce vigorous measures to support rural revitalization. Our goal is to achieve common prosperity and high-quality development including through the rural revitalization strategy with a focus in five key areas: industry development, human capital, culture, ecological environment and local governance.”

It's interesting and kinda disconcerting reading through the policies and how no real figures are presented for what the policy should be, such as the "common prosperity" they hope to achieve be 2030 (link page 15)

China has set a new goal of achieving significant progress toward common prosperity by 2035.1 While no particular income target or poverty threshold is attached to this goal, it can help keep the policy focus on the vulnerable population over the coming decade.

It makes me wonder if setting an elusive "goal" of a policy is better to get members on board and then slap them with the real numbers after they have already signed on and can't openly complain about (bad for corrupt sectors of government though). There's also just not enough information as stated in the paper to actually understand what is going on,

Finally, this review of China’s poverty reduction experience leaves a number of questions open for further research.....

• the interplay between poverty reduction and growth deserves further analysis to understand the extent that poverty reduction measures may, in turn, help less-developed areas grow faster
• a deeper analysis of China’s use of policy experimentation at the local level combined with high-powered performance incentives may contribute to our understanding of models of decentralization and public service delivery
• an evaluation of China’s targeted poverty alleviation experience in recent years would benefit from further analysis of individual policy interventions and their interactions to better understand not just the effectiveness but also the efficiency and sustainability of the program.
• An analysis of the costs and benefits of policy intervention would also be warranted in a broader sense, helping to systematically account (suan da zhang in the Chinese term) for factors such as the impact of infrastructure investments on poverty reduction or the merits of the hukou system and man- aged urbanization policies. In all these areas, active exchanges between researchers within and outside of China, and between academics and policy makers, should be encouraged, and the data needed for high-quality empirical work should be made more widely available. These actions will help ensure that China’s poverty reduction achievements get the attention and understanding that they deserve.

Just now seeing and trying to wrap my head around the Hukou system. I'm not here arguing good/bad communism, I just like the information and think that many forms of government can work out with protections in place (regulations, corruption detection, etc). I just wanted to point out your article mention and link didn't really fit together with how you presented it. I did enjoy the reading and will continue today, but I take it all with a grain of salt. I don't really 100% trust any source these days, which in this technological era should really be the default for everyone. Definitely let it sink in and contemplate the realities of others, but you only have your own reality to work within for any type of effective action.

Fell for this one before, Mr. Manson.

There was a reality TV show about communes and stuff. Granted it's reality TV but aside from the bad ones media doesn't cover them very much. Long story short, it really didn't do a good job of saying communism-good.

I think the best examples might be like Cuba having universal health care or something but ny experience was with a michael moore doc so it's kinda sketch to begin.

Authoritarianism is a meaningless term that people with lack of capacity for rational thought regurgitate. Every single government holds authority by virtue of having the monopoly on legal violence. The only question is whose interest the authority is exercised in.

America Bombs North Korea and Vietnam to smithereens

Communism bad?!

^ this is a bad faith engagement

Just like Capitalism you aren’t going to find any examples of the system in the world today

About to have my brain turned into soup by asking this question:

Are you implying that there are no examples of capitalism in the world today?

While it accomplishes lot of basics right, like housing, food and education generally, further it goes, it starts carving into personal freedom and makes everything worse.

Can you explain what you mean by this, and why you believe it despite direct evidence to the contrary, such as in Cuba?

Colonialism and indigenous eviction masquerading as "socialist".

How it started: The kibbutzim were founded by members of the Bilu movement who emigrated to Palestine.

How it’s going: Gaza toll could exceed 186,000, Lancet study says

Luckily most countries don't believe the lies the US is trying to spread about China.

That often depends on whether one is talking about imperial core media or peripheral media. Yet another case of alwaysthesamemap.

They defederated with .ca and .world because of all the racism, transphobia and general right wing culture in those instances and that's basically all of the parent comments in here

Yes and no. They are federated with many communities, but the larger anti-Marxist instances like Lemmy.world are not federated. That's by design, Hexbear wishes to protect their marginalized members such as their trans, queer, gender-nonconforming, and EM/POC communities.

And what empirically happened every time communism has been tried?

Wikipedia is one click away:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea

Formerly the third-largest lake in the world with an area of 68,000 km2 (26,300 sq mi), the Aral Sea began shrinking in the 1960s after the rivers that fed it were diverted by Soviet irrigation projects. By 2007, it had declined to 10% of its original size

former United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon called the shrinking of the Aral Sea "one of the planet's worst environmental disasters".

The Aral Sea region is heavily polluted, with consequent serious public health problems. UNESCO has added historical documents concerning the Aral Sea to its Memory of the World Register as a resource to study the environmental tragedy.

That's okay mods, you can absolutely hide all the ample evidence of suffering under communism.

It doesn't change the truth of the history or the words written in my great grandfather's journals, highlighting the horrors that came with living in communist Russia.

Edit; I hope it hurts you everyday that the entire world can see right through your bullshit. Communism has as much a chance at working as you do getting paid for modding here 🤷

If .worlders could see hexbear and lemmygrad, they'd have an aneurysm. But then some of them would recover and look further into it and realize the commies are right. But that is of course why they're not allowed to see it, as you said.

Why are liberals on a decentralized platform anyway? Surely the free market has provided adequate platforms for everyone's needs

Don't cheer for Communism (or China) , means to be anti-leftist??

Since when?

Accusations of an “echo chamber” or a “bubble” are always rich. As if we weren’t & aren’t still exposed to exactly the same life-long liberal indoctrination, education, and propaganda.

communism has not worked and won't work at a great scale (not talking about small communes). as history has shown, it will fail at the human factor.

What Human Factor? This is Idealism, what's considered Human Nature isn't fixed or static, and changes alongside Mode of Production.

Communism only worked on a really small scale, when everyone was in favor of it.

Unless you consider a dictatorship "working", which it technically might be, but it's not something I would consider as a viable option. And technically it's not true communism when there is a dictator with it's circle of elite.

Now here comes the next layer of propaganda. These so-called failed communist examples you speak of. Were any of them actually communism? Or were they just authoritarians calling themselves Communists to try to make people think they weren't authoritarian?

Sounds like you made it through the first and second layer, but stopped there and didn't seek further knowledge. There are hundreds, thousands of layers of propaganda.

the overall fear of innovation

eh?

I don't consider myself a Marxist, but... what?

Since when lemmy.ml is a communist platform??

All good points. Sorry I'm coming from a non US perspective where climate change denialism is present, but less fervent. I like your definition of "truth from a rarified point of view", though I might also considered non-rarified or pervasive, and factually well substantiated truths can be used as propaganda as well. The 95%+ consensus of scientists on climate change is both factually/meaningfully/importantly true and also used with a propagandistic flavour in many examples of political persuasion for example.

My post was more aiming at acknowledging propaganda as a vehicle of persuasion for any and differing representations of reality (political groups) that exists in parallel with the the establishment of facts of reality. Some representations will adhere more or less with the factual arguments.

libertarians: "the increase in global quality of life is all because of capitalism!"

communists: "the increase in global quality of life is all because of communism!"

But wasn't the USSR separated sometime after the Cold War?

PRC

How on Earth do you have a mix of Communism and Capitalism

Arguably, the PRC is juggling both. I don't claim to be an expert, but there are certain capitalist undercurrents going on in the private sector along with some level of CCP tension.