Seriously, why is the USA supporting Israel?

And the US wants a foothold in the middle east because oil.
- critical region for American national security.
  The rest was true but this one is complete BS
+Palestinians are not as white and a religious minority on top of it
That and Israel wouldn't hesitate a second before switching sides and allying with Russia and/or China.
It also allows Israel and other relugional institutions to influence US politics.
Who is the hegemon, the vassal or the collector?

Everyone that understands military doctrine would understand that one of the main purposes of Israel was to act as a staging ground to extend power throughout the middle east. There is also a sizeable voting block of christians that place special emphasis on the formation and continued support of Israel.

The US supports plenty of fucked up countries because we gain something from them. In the same way Saudi Arabia supplies us oil, Israel provides an American stronghold in the middle east to operate out of. With the political importance and violent instability of the middle east the US finds Israel a necessity to its ambitions.

Let's be honest, there's a shit ton of money involved as well. From campaign donations to the military industrial complex, people are getting paid by Israel and jewish persons. They have a powerful lobby and influential people around the nation.
Also worth noting Israel is very advanced with respect to cybersecurity. Considering they provide tools like Pegasus to US intelligence agencies, I'm sure the agencies value this relationship very much.
Oh and Prilosec is made in Israel I believe.
Domestically within USA there are plentiful of issues. These can be seen as opportunities for collaboration & create solutions.
Honest/ Legit Question; Why not refocus efforts, resources, skills with experience on improving their own country in various ways? There are so much value to be gained, instead of utilizing so much resources in other regions/ countries - that don't welcome them.
Why bother being involved in Middle East, when if they actually work/ utilize similar amounts of resources within their borders, the country as a whole could reach results that would envy others. Isn't that what patriotism means? There are plethora of opportunities to be gained! But it's being so neglected.
In transportation, health, education, nature, finances (solving various debts), jobs, scientific explorations, improved overall living, safety, etc....

They have historic ties and Israel is an important strategic ally in the middle east for the US.

The answer is simple and almost no one gets it: The U.S. will NEVER give up a military foothold in the middle east. They will ignore every atrocity Israel commits if it means we have a place to sortie from.

That's it.

It's not a religious conspiracy, it's not about back room money deals.

It's about military power and our ability to strike anywhere in the world with 2 hours notice.

- Well, Trump might do something because he's willing to break any and all precedents ... but the something he does would likely be much worse, impulsive, and generally lacking much forethought.
- Yeah but that won't prevent every fuckdamn armchair admiral from weighing in with their wikipedia based knowledge.
  The problem is that those trolls are significantly out-shouting the truth.
The U.S. will NEVER give up a military foothold in the middle east.
They will, only once all the oil's been extracted, which will take some decades yet.
While it's not a religious conspiracy, there is plenty of religious support from certain christian denominations, on the USA and other countries, because of some weird interpretation of the bible about Israelis getting their "promised land" back.
- It's not only about oil. I mean sure, some of it is but even without oil they'd want military access simply because of how much a hotspot it is.
  I already told you this has nothing to do with religion and the fact you believe this means your sources aren't trustworthy.

Roughly 4 out of 5 companies I've seen that have received investments in my industry in the past 5 years have been Israel R&D startup companies.

Not my wheel house, but if I had to guess, the ruling class in the states has a lot of investments tied up in Israel.

Take with a grain of salt, as this is just an anecdotal observation.

I like how you add error bars to your statement. More people should post like that.

I think this issue is also more nuanced than you'll see it given credit for in the media.

I think there's some strong "War in Iraq" parallels that can be drawn that might help reflect why the US is reacting the way they are.

To summarize, small group of terrorists commit an attack that is one of the worst in the nations history. This country that was attacked has a much better funded military, and they roll in to exact retribution, notionally under the banner of "stopping the people who did this and not letting it happen again." The war of revenge is hugely detrimental to the civilian population therein, and human rights violations occur.

Most establishment politicians were/are fully on board with the War in Iraq. Why wouldn't they be on board with Israel right now? It's basically the same situation again.

I think that a lot of what you see online forgets that this wasn't some random thing where Israel just decided to commit a genocide out of nowhere. But just like how 9/11 didn't justify the War in Iraq, 10/7 doesn't justify what's happening now. But it's somewhat understandable why it's happening, and why people support it.

I remember right after 9/11, the vast majority of people were on board with sending troops in. The dissenters were super few and far between. This is just that again, but Israel this time.

Iraq didn't have anything to do with 9-11. I think you mean Afghanistan.
- Oh how soon we all forget...
- You are technically correct. The best kind of correct. :)
  I was using "The War in Iraq" as a cover term for the whole ongoing conflict that arose in the aftermath of 9/11.
  I think that your point actually furthers my parallel though. As the US was in Afghanistan, the Bush Administration's obsession with Iraq ended up with them pushing questionable Intel that there were Al Queda controlled WMDs in Iraq, and that we had to invade there as well if we really wanted to win the war.
  There's a pretty clear parallel between that logic and the "Hamas Tunnels" arguments we're hearing out of Israel at the moment.
Understand this, all reading this thread, though:
The DarkHexad of human-evil's dimensions, is:
Narcissism
Machiavellianism
Sociopathy ( mentally/experientially induced ) / Psychopathy ( intrinsic defective mirror-neurons function, NO empathy, NO other is "human" )
Nihilism
Sadism
SystemicDishonesty
The more abused some population is, the more they become embedded in DarkHexad mind/meaning.
Hamas went nihilist.
They knew that Israel'd commit to genociding all Palestinians, to all the extent they could, and that's why they did the attack.
Israel's now is demonstrating its nihilism/sadism so blatently that their "deterrent" is being permanently corroded-away:
Within a few years, the surrounding Muslim region won't care how much damage/violence Israel does to them while they're annihilating Israel, they'll HAVE TO annihilate Israel, at ANY cost.
Israel's guaranteeing its own within-decade annihilation.
Exactly as Hamas' ( either unconsciously or consciously ) strategy determined.
Israel walked into the trap, they ate the bait.
2 millenia ago, the ONLY Jew in the world that no Zionist would tolerate to have any validity, Yehoshua "Jesus" benJoseph, warned that when the abomination Daniel spoke-of was becoming real, that Israel would be annihilated.
( Matt 24, iirc .. here, I dug it up, just in case anybody wants to read the actual text: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt+24%3A15-22&version=AMPC )
Perfect & correct warning.
Within 1 decade, Israel's going to be annihilated, exactly as benJoseph warned, and the Zionists, themselves, are the ones enforcing that no alternative-future can happen.
Comical, really: one's-own ideology/prejudice absolutely determining one's fate, in a way that makes one's most-hated-individual proven-right.
"Deterrent" only works when the ones hating your life are hesitating because of their aversion to the harm you can do them.
Israel's not going to have any "deterrent" soon.
And they're too ideology/prejudice rabid to know that simple human-nature meaning.
When, in a decade, perhaps less, Israel's been annihilated, how is the rest of the Middle East, now committed/allied with BRICS, going to tilt the world's geopolitical table?
No matter: Trump's already said he'll "delete" the constitution, leave NATO, back Russia, create crime in Washington DC, be dictator, & "MAGA", right?
That is going to happen, unfortunately, and the incompetence of the Biden-institution is playing directly into handing the entire US into Trump-cult's hands.
The economic rug-pull that they're delaying can't be held-back forever, either.
Backlash-vote always torpedoes the incumbents, in that situation.
It doesn't even matter if legalism "prohibits" Trump becoming GEOTUS, now: legalists ignore all the letter-of-the-law that contradicts their intention, ..
.. and that is sooo traditional for legalists that benJoseph railed against their doing that 2 millenia ago.
Something like "you who hold the letter-of-the-law rules, who ignore even 1 part, are guilty of ALL", iirc.
That is exactly the nature of the legalism of nowadays.
The real game going-on is that human-unconscious-ignorance is trying to enforce a simplistic "mythic" "importance" through global tantrum/pogrom.
And arguing with humanity's unconscious-toddler .. requires a bit of rather-brutal experience-induced-understanding enforcement, and that isn't going to happen until "armageddon" has beaten that understanding into our unconscious.
The Great Filter.
Won't-grow-up is the most-fundamental religion, in our unconscious.
_ /\ _

Nobody else has pointed out that theres roughly as many Jewish people in the US as in Israel. Which in the run-up to an election is not a voting base you would want to upset.

- In the 1980s through the aughts, it was a lot easier to turn a blind eye to the inhumane treatment of Palestinians because media agencies controlled the narrative. Once the internet allowed for unvetted video to leak the pubic have a better grasp on what is actually going on.
  In other controversies, the ubiquity if phone cameras plays a significant part, but I don't know how many phone cameras are in Palestine.
  I think it is this, how the internet affects narratives of violence against oppressed peoples, that drives the save the kids from the internet policies like KOSA and SESTA/FOSTA. The US federal government doesn't really care about children, but it does care about leaks that embarrass the administration or the state.
- Never said that they were, but I imagine theres a notable percentage who would be very single issue on the subject.
And do Israeli people actually approve of this genocide?
- Several things to consider.
  Much of the information the Israels get is controlled. Many probably aren't aware how bad the genocide is (and the it is genocide).
  Most Israels have been subject to ongoing missile attacks and bombings their whole lives. Everyone there knows someone hurt or killed in an attack. They just want it to stop.
  I don't say this to in any way condone the genocide. I'm fully against the genocide. But, this is a complex issue with a lot of factors on both sides that can drive normally reasonable people to do bad things.
- A sizable portion does. And the whole political system is built such that the extremists get a disproportionate say in policy.

They want an ally in the middle east? A bunch of countries in that area don't like them.

Israel's an ally and America doesn't exactly have the moral high ground to stand on cutting off israel for terror bombing civlians in the middle east.

More practically, Biden seems to think he can negotiate more from israel by playing at being on their side in this conflict than by joining the international condemnation against them, and to his credit he has achieved concessions from israel in the hypothetical post war, and managed hostage swaps between israel and hamas.

Lastly there's the old saying about never letting a good crisis go to waste, the houthis have gone and made absolute asses of themselves with their red sea blockade over this war, and the US and KSA MICs are both explosively orgasmic at the campaign against them going from being labelled a humanitarian disaster to suddenly being a borderline service to the international community.

The longer Israel keeps it up, the longer the Houthis keep making everyone hate them, the longer MBS has to wipe what he sees as one of his biggest security threats off the map without catching flak from most of the international community. You could almost argue that Israel and KSA are passing the "everyone hates us!" ball back and forth to cover for each other's designs on complete subjugation of their immediate neighbors.

Strategic military foothold in the Middle East.

Christofascists and Zionists are pretty good friends, and as they are at the head of both countries it's pretty reasonable for them to support eachother country.

Christofascists and Zionists are pretty good friends
It's the same picture. Evangelical Christians are Zionists, because the Jews returning to the Holy Land is a precondition for the Rapture.
(They don't actually give a flying fuck about the Jewish people themselves, to be clear. They just wanna get Raptured.)
- You're underestimating the impact of their hatred of Muslims. They looooove this. Two kinds of infidel killing each other? The kind they admit needs to exist killing the kind they don't?
  They're all hard as rocks.
This. They believe Jews belong in Israel which will bring the 2nd coming of Jesus and the rapture.
It's called Christian dominionism.

Racism.

You can see that by how American politicians go on and on about Israel being a "Jewish Nation", a characteristic that is wholly unimportant unless ones is a racist.

Since WWII and what was done to millions of Jewish people because of their etnicity (and not only them: there is this "strange" forgetfulness that for example people were also being exterminated for having the Roma etnicity) by the German racists that, even though the racism itself never died, Jews became "one of us" for the racists in many countries with a predominant white majority (in other words, they're considered just another kind of "white").

Israel itself seems to have invested a lot into portraying itself as a "Western Nation" to further entrench and capitalize on that "one of us" perception in Western nations,

Palestinians, on the other hand are seen by the racists as "muslims" and as some call it "brown people", with quite a lot of nasty prejudices associated with both characteristics.

For the racists this is an "people like us" vs "them" fight, hence why even very overt and extreme racist statement of the Israelis like calling Palestinians "human animals" don't shock them (they're pretty much aligned with the racists' prejudices about "muslims" and "non-whites") and hence too the vastly different reaction from how the invasion of Ukraine by Russia was seen, since that one from a racist point of view was "people like us" vs "people like us".

This, by the way, also explains Germany's behaviour on this: the Nazis might have been kicked out of power there but that very "special" way of looking at other human beings as primarily members of an etnicity and "like us" or "not like us" has never left, so Israel gets unwavering support no matter what and that's very overtly stated as because "they're the Jewish Nation" (notice how it's people etnicity that determines if support is given).

I am more curious as to why these completely legal (non rule breaking or trolling comments) are being deleted by lemmy moderation. My app shows removed comments.

If you think you are seeing what people really think of the conflict on this site, you are not. Agendas are being pushed

We need more transparency and community engagement. I think instead of someone being banned or their comment being removed, it should go up for a vote between a random selection of users.
Sort of like the criminal justice system. Be judged by a jury of your peers. Not just some arbitrary official who decides your fate and you have zero recourse.
It was getting a bit too based. People are stating to realize that there is very little difference between israel and the Nazi's expanding their Lebensraum.
After that, you ask the question if fighting back against Nazi's is justified, but answering that is not allowed yet.
- Fighting back against Nazis is the only correct response.
Sorry I'm really bad at reading between the lines, what's the agenda being pushed?

Western powers support Israel because the Middle East is a strategically important region and Western powers have exactly one reliable partner there. I mean, look at what the House of Saud can get away with just for being a semi-reliable partner.

And let's not forget ol Saddam in the 80s
Don't discount the fact that Israel supported us in every way when 9/11 happened. I firmly believe every favor is being called in at this point.
- Yeah, supported the US by knowing about the attacks and celebrating with photos on Sept 10th and having Bush and Ashcroft fly the mossad agents back to Israel.
  https://www.mintpressnews.com/newly-released-fbi-docs-shed-light-on-apparent-mossad-foreknowledge-of-9-11-attacks/258581/
  Israel is no friend. The last time a US naval ship was attacked and destroyed was USS Liberty
- So did China and Russia

Because Isreal is a leading military power in the Middle East. They are Western in most of their views and the US can deal with them. You can’t say the same about any of the other Middle Eastern nations.

Israel is coming down hard on Gaza and Hamas to make an example of them. They are going to send that strip back to the Stone Age. This operation is a statement, “this is what happens when you fuck with us. “

No other Middle Eastern powers give a shit about Gaza. They make noises to appease their populations. But no other Nation has offered direct military assistance or action.

In short it would be stupid to drop Israel as an ally over this.

The military industrial complex needed some new juice after the US left Afghanistan. Those businesses can't scale back and the defense budget can't be reduced, no, never.

Biden may not be a genocidal maniac, but he is a warmonger. I'm hoping his presidency will get people to realize that the Democratic party desires war just as much as Republicans, but that doesn't look like it's happening

Unfortunately, the people who need to realize this seem immune to reason or ethics. The two-party system has created a majority of voters who treat politics like a sports game and react by regurgitating the same untruths over and over again. For Republicans, everything is "woke," and "woke" = bad to them. For Democrats, anyone who criticizes Biden in the least is a "Russian bot" or "Trump supporter."
In the meantime, human beings are experiencing dire consequences and grave injustices, suffering, dying -- and all we can do is talk about it and hope that someone will listen, but they won't, because to them nothing else matters except the campaign, and to them the campaign never ends.

As a US citizen, I really wish we wouldn't. I know a lot of us are against it too.

If it looks like a genocidal maniac, and it quacks like a genocidal maniac...

Money.

About 30% of it is the end of the world cult that believes that for Jesus to come back to take them Israel must exist.

The rest is just the usual reasons they love bombing the middle east.

Money

The simplest and most concise answer.
We also like to support the only democracy in the middle East. But yeah, mostly money / self interest.
- 1 trillion dollars and countless American lives to bring democracy to Iraq, and people still trotting out the "Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East" line.

It’s really complicated.

Imagine if after 9/11, Bin Laden and al-Qaeda were held up in New Jersey, and had been launching small attacks to New York for years prior. They are intertwined into New Jersey and don’t operate like a nation state. Now imagine the US is the size of New York, and they are bordered by several other countries that basically want to wipe them off the face of the earth so they fund Al-Qaeda to do their dirty work.

Israel is in an extremely vulnerable position, and there’s no great answer. Remember the conflict in this area is practically older than recorded history. Hamas isn’t going to surrender, and obviously aren’t centralized to be taken out.

War sucks.

That was a very normal sounding response with a wide view while offering little information. I both appreciated and hate it.
How can a body of water stretch so far, yet be so shallow?
- That’s the point. It’s an example of something you could better relate to. If you want more information, you’ve got a lot of history to read up on.

The same reason Russia and North Korea are supporting Palestine.

The US had no essential friends in the Middle East. So the UK made one for them.

That's not super true. We've been friends with various Middle Eastern countries over the decades, including Iran (especially during the reign of the Shah), Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan. We've worked with all of them.
- You are no longer friends with Iran.
  Saudi Arabia is probably the only one who you guys are still kinda friends with, but I think even they are starting to get tired of you.
  You invaded Afghanistan. They now have a government that despises you.
  Same with Iraq.
  Pakistan is also friends with China, nay, especially with China.
- That's the friend circle your mom tells you not to hang out with

What should we do? Hamas kidnapped a bunch of people and is still holding them hostage. Hamas has been launching missiles at civilians for decades now.

Israel is not without guilt, but the everyone else [with any power] is at least as bad.

There are no good answers. All options are bad. The only question is what is the least bad, and that seems to be supporting Israel while putting pressure on them to stop settlements and be careful about non-Hamas civilians. Not a good option, but the is nothing else that is better. (including walking away from the whole region)

Hamas didn't flatten an Israeli city with bombs. They didn't starved population, killed journalists and bombed hospitals.
Israel is on the verge of genocide here. War crimes are obvious.
Even 1000 hostages don't warrant 10000 deaths. And Israel is far, far beyond 10k kills in Gaza now.
What should you do? Maybe start to consider the people in Gaza like human being for a start.

https://www.aipac.org/ is an influential lobbying organization. Your elected leaders listen to influential lobbying organizations.

Because while "what we can mostly all agree" to that, Biden does not think that Israel is engaged in genocide.

Just because a group of people perceive something to be the absolute truth, doesn't mean everyone interpret reality the same way.

It'll all make a lot more sense in a few years, when the Lord Jesus Christ descends from the clouds to collect his chosen. Let's just say you'll be pretty glad we killed all those Palestinian kids then. It's pretty basic foreign policy stuff, if you read your Bible.

Your wit was lost on someone, but I give you +1
Once that red heifer is born and sacrificed we're gonna see some serious shit

Because history is never the result of good or bad intentions, as much as propaganda would try and convince you otherwise

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is how the Jewish were treated by all countries in WWII. Going against Israel gives the opposing party ammunition that only works due to most people not understanding the politics at play

Because Israel helped the US a ton during the cold war. Mossad are pretty good at what they do, and what they did a lot of was spying on Moscow.

Except when it comes to defending their own country from their technologically inferior neighbor.

Money.

The history of the conflict is pretty complicated. As far as US support goes, the US can utilize Israel and wars as a destabilizing force in middle east which is beneficial to the Military Industrial Complex, and influence in the region with Hard/Soft Power. Reductively, because of Money and Power.

Following Israel’s stunning victory and occupation of Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem, Washington concluded that Arab nations had moved into the Soviet camp and so increased weapons sales to the Jewish state, including Phantom jet fighters.

Initially as an anti Soviet position under LBJ

Military support for Israel solidified under the Reagan administration which also began a more vigorous diplomatic defence of Israel – particularly shielding it from criticism at the United Nations.

And especially to sell weapons under Reagan

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/nov/16/why-israel-allies-explainer

The US has been supporting the ethnic cleansing of Palestine since the 1967 war and the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, and that position has led to the US supporting the ongoing genocide in Gaza today.

Biden is also a strong Zionist, so... There's that too

Israel wants to kill everyone in ~~Gaza~~ the Middle East and take their land a la Lebensraum. (They want to take Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt too (and even Turkey))

America wants to control the middle east so they can control the oil.

Our entire modern society revolves around oil.

Which Jews?
- The ones with money. The ordinary people can just be brushed aside.
Which Jews?
- I assume we are to read it as (((the Jews))).
How does this piece of shit's comments stick and you delete everything I post. Fuck Lemmy and fuck you mods you racist dicks for leaving this crap up all the time.
- Hi mods! Do your fucking job please! 😀
Hey u/souredgelord which Jews?

Israel is an ally in the middle east, the only one who does what the US says whenever they say it.

spits out coffee
Israel does what they want.
Their interests align with ours more often than, say, Syria, but they are not a puppet state. Israel tells US foreign policy to go fuck itself sideways on a regular basis.
- Interesting, What are some examples of this?
- We've not told them explicitly to stop steam rolling Palestine, we've don't the opposite by emboldening them with a few billion dollars in aid money. If we did and stopped giving them aid, they would stop yesterday. They're dependent on US aid to keep existing. The second we stop aiding Israel; Jordan, Iran, and Iraq move right on in.

Politics baby

Because they love their colonial overlords, the UK, and the UK gave part of palestina to the jews to create Israel?

Must be something like that, or just plain longing to influence a tiny part of the world that is close to the area that has a tad of oil in the ground.

At this point if anyone is the satellite state between the US and UK it's the UK.

We don't, our government it's