How do you deal with the thought of having to work for 40+ years and then when/if you retire, you're too old to do much?
There has to be a better system than this.
Don't wait until retirement. Balance your life now. It's going to be a long slog.
You don't need to find an amazing career that you’ll love doing until you die. People who get that are extremely lucky, and it's not the norm. You just need a job that will support you while still giving you time to do the things you enjoy.
Follow this: https://youtu.be/YHxwY3Fz2gU?feature=shared
As I tell my kids repeatedly. I am the exception not the rule!
It's so bloody annoying a 13 year old is supposed to know what they want to do with their life. I fell into my career in IT at 25 after dropping out of college twice, running my own business unsuccessfully and generally doing my best to survive. Now I make 150k which is both too much and not enough money.
Point being, do what's right for you and only you.
I dealt with it by choosing to not have kids years ago. I didn't ask to be born, and I refuse to force that on anyone else.
Once things become too difficult, I'm pulling my own plug.
Incredibly based
How are you going to pull your own plug if the country you are in suddenly makes a law to prevent you from doing that?
Laws against suicide are notoriously difficult to enforce, for obvious reasons.
It already is illegal, and euthanasia while "tolerated" is also illegal to perform by a medical professional.
What are they going to do, arrest a corpse? Fine by me.
A lot of places have those laws already. They aren't stopping anyone. What, someone suicidal is supposed to go "oh, guess that's not allowed" and regain their will to live?
What are they gonna do about it? Kill me?
Live with underlying existential dread for decades. Watch as "doing what you love" becomes "hating what you used to love because you're forced to do it so that there's enough numbers in the computer to prove that you're worthy of continued existence." Contemplate the pointlessness of it all on a daily basis. Be reminded that your feelings are invalid because "other people have it worse" every time the topic comes up. Nod listlessly as "successful" people tout their own hard work while ignoring any factor luck and privilege played, then tune out when they shift into the dissonant duet of "I succeeded because I am exceptional" and "anyone can do the same if they just work harder."
Wake up the next morning and realize there's roughly 30 more years of this, barring a massive coronary or aneurism or something.
barring a massive coronary or aneurism or something.
Fingers crossed! 🤞
I need more therapy tbh
Don't hold on to things you haven't done before you retire... It is a waste of time and regretting not doing stuff, which lasts for moments, is the folly of youth.
Also what/who you want to do changes as you get older...
/sauce greybeard who is 10 years off retirement.
Thank you HorseChandelier
Yep, your priorities will change, those big plans you had 15 years ago might not seem so important now, and that's perfectly OK.
Here's a hot take. Do what you want when you are young. Find a way. I spent my 20's moving around, having shitty but fun jobs. I travelled. Saw all kinds of places and met all sorts of people. It wasn't easy and sometimes it wasn't fun. I found myself homeless even several times. I still wouldn't change any of it. I found a wonderful partner and we moved together for a while before settling and having kids.
In my early 40s I was diagnosed with a really rare cancer that paralyzed me from the chest down for a year prior to surgery and left lasting disabilities following. Now in my 50's with declining health I am so glad I lived. It means I don't have a lot of things others have but I've never cared much for the Jones' anyway. If Cancer taught me anything it's fuck society and their expectations. Do you. Find a way. Be happy.
Would love to talk further with you. Mid 40s, narcolepsy, and some doubt that I’ll make it to retirement age in a way that makes SSA pay meaningfully.
Struggling thru the next twenty or so years seems like hell. Love my job, but doesn’t make up for the mess that is life for me.
On top of that, I made promises to my wife of fifteeen years, back when, and I’m bent on keeping them.
My disease is hardly akin to cancer, but I think you have some collected wisdom that would make a meaningful differentlce in our lives.
The alternative is much worse. I don’t want to be poor and/or homeless. I want to be able to take vacations and not worry about surprise expenses. I want to actually be able to retire someday.
The alternative is a much harder life to live, in my opinion. For me, giving up 40ish hours a week for the peace of mind it worth it. Yes, work is not how I’d prefer to spend my time, but it allows me to spend the rest of my time doing as I’d please.
There are more alternatives.
As a kid, I was traumatized by the idea that I'd need to work until I'm old and then maybe spend another decade or two being too old to do the things I wanted before I eventually die. I was so distraught over "the way things are" that I constantly fantasized about running away and building my own tree house in the woods to live in, à la Swiss Family Robinson style.
And this was a time before inflation and property prices got out of hand. We were still fed the idea that getting a college education and a good paying job would help us live comfortably, while still saving up for retirement.
Then I joined the US military, thanks to the advice of my uncle who was a retired Air Force Chief Master Sergeant. 20 years later, at only 38 years old, I officially retired and earned myself a pension equal to about half my monthly pay, which I will collect automatically for the rest of my life. Unfortunately, the military did away with the pension program about 7 years ago, so any newbies will have to do their new BRS program. (Basic Retirement System; basically the federal govt's version of a 401K) I was lucky enough to be grandfathered into the old pension program when I retired 2 years ago.
On top of that, a bunch of physical and mental injuries accrued over 20 years (thanks to serving during wartime) has earned me the coveted 100% Permanent & Total disability rating with the VA, which means I get free medical and dental for life, as well as a monthly paycheck from the VA that's bigger than my pension. I'm making more money in retirement than I did while serving! So I can be fully retired now.
My wife also served in the military, but she didn't make it to retirement. She was medically discharged about 12 years into service. But fortunately, her medical issues also earned her the rare 100% Total & Permanent disability rating from the VA as well. So she enjoys all the same benefits as I do, including a sizeable VA paycheck every month for life.
While I was serving, I bought houses in 2 separate places I was stationed, and I rented them out when I left. I hired on a property manager to act as landlord in my absence (since they're in different states from where I currently live) and they take 10% of the monthly rent as their pay, which incentivizes them to keep tenants in the house, as they don't get paid if it's empty. They literally take care of everything; I only get contacted if they need to make a financial decision, i.e. hiring a plumber, replacing a washing machine, etc.
I make sure to charge afforable rates for rent, not price-gouge like a lot of landlords do nowadays. I'm not relying on income from these houses, so I don't need to squeeze every penny out of them that I can. I'm very quick to fix issues, too. These houses were in excellent condition when I lived there (one was a brand-new build when I moved in) and I want to keep them in immaculate condition, so I make sure to do quality repairs and not just cheap patch jobs. I charge just enough to cover my mortgage (which was really cheap when I bought them around a decade ago) plus the property manager's share. When both houses are paid off, that rent money (minus 10%) is just passive income to supplement my pension and disability pay.
I've also been living in my childhood home for the past couple years, which my father owned until he passed away last week, so I will be inheriting the house and all 6 acres it's on. Basically a free house. Oh, and the military paid me a separate monthly housing allowance to afford rent/mortgage payments while I was serving, so I didn't have to spend any of my own money on the 2 houses I bought. The military covered my mortgage while I lived there and tenants are paying my mortgage now. So I technically own 3 houses that I didn't need to spend any of my own money on.
Besides all this, I also have some investments going through my cousin, who works for an investment firm. I'm pretending those investments don't exist until actual retirement age, so they'll accrue in value over the next couple decades and hopefully be a sizeable retirement nest egg.
So through a lot of dumb luck (and some smart choices), I've managed to not only avoid working until I'm too old to enjoy life, but I actually have some decent income to live comfortably on. I'm not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm living cozy enough to relax and enjoy the second half of my life at my own pace, without a job to afford my way of life.
This is what life should be like for everyone. We're not here to work for the rest of our lives, that's just capitalist propaganda, fed to us since grade school. We only get one shot at life, so it should be lived! There should be plentiful options to make passive income in the second half of your life so you can enjoy living. But the capitalist machine doesn't work if there are no workers to power it, so we're stuck in this broken worker bee system for the majority of our lives.
You're making passive income from disability, a pension system that no longer exists, and owning 3 houses you didn't pay for based off of programs no longer available to anyone starting out now. While collecting "market rate" rent (which conveniently always increases).
The disability, I'm fine with. My buddy had the same thing from the Marines and he more than earned the 100% rating, as I'm sure you and your wife did.
However, this whole thing where you're talking about with retiring off of passive income... that was a LOT of words to say:
I'm a landlord
I really wish you would have said this first, because your long winded story about houses and "passive income streams" gives me the impression that you know the house-related part all boils down to being a landlord, and I get the impression you buried that fact to obfuscate it. You're making money from other people's work, in the form of the rent they pay to you (minus a small fee to the property managers), while doing literally no work yourself, as you explicitly explained.
I hired on a property manager to act as landlord in my absence (since they’re in different states from where I currently live) and they take 10% of the monthly rent as their pay, which incentivizes them to keep tenants in the house, as they don’t get paid if it’s empty.
He's actually even more of a dick it turns out.
The problem is not landlords, which have existed for thousands of years. The problem is that the first time homebuyer programs suck ass. They're like "only 3% down payment! But you have to pay extra PMI, so it's still expensive monthly."
If the government really wanted to subsidize housing, they would subsidize home construction workers and materials. Right now old construction workers have to retire due to age or become contractors. So there are a ton of crappy contractors who have no business sense and a lot of construction experience.
Imagine if you could go to school for free to build your own house! Land in the US is almost free outside of major cities. The expensive part is workers and materials.
It's funny and sad at the same time that you had to expand so much on your landlord duties. I'm sorry this network has preconditioned you to this point.
Lemmy really has become an echo chamber of losers :(
A pivotal piece of advice once shifted my perspective on work. It was put simply: 'If the thought of retirement is your main motivation, you might be in the wrong job.' This implies that if you're constantly counting down the years to retirement, you're essentially wishing for time to fly by quicker. But those years are valuable, and letting them slip away in anticipation of something else isn't worth it. The key is to find a career that reduces your stress and enhances your life now, not just in the future. While financial security is undeniably important, it's also crucial to recognize when you have enough and to prioritize your well-being and happiness in the present.
Its an interesting sentiment... but ultimately it just rings a bit hollow yeah? As if nearly anyone would work 40 hours a week if they didnt have to. You think if 100 people were given enough money to cover their housing/food/leisure/travel they would go to a factory job 40 hours a week? Or even a job they enjoyed or had fun at? Or would they spend their time with loved ones, doing things they enjoy, filling their lives with interesting experiences they can enjoy in the moment and reflect back on?
I enjoy my job quite a bit, It even has value to me in that it contributes to society in a fulfilling way, but 100% I am looking forward to not being obligated to do it
I've pretty consistently chosen less hours and better working conditions over pay since I started to have that choice. It's made it a lot more tolerable. I'm currently on a four day week, with a minimal commute, good perks and a relatively stress free job that I took a pay cut for. My retirement savings look pretty slim, but due to my health the chance of a long one isn't much higher anyway.
Not without it's issues. Pay is pretty significantly below the median. Fortunately I'm not interested in having kids and I'm content living cheaply, even if it sounds boring. But I'm in a weird dead zone for government support; for instance - if I earned more, there are programs for "middle income" housing and the like that I earn too little to qualify for. Low income housing programs are a joke - with wait times being as much as a decade -but even if it wasn't I'm not high priority anyway. Also no way on earth I'm ever getting a home loan, even though mortgage repayments would be less than rent and I could conceivably make the deposit.
Was just talking about how difficult work is going to make the next three days, so that I can't wait until they're over, but that's another week of my life where I'm wishing for days to pass so I can try to be happy again. Lame. Lame as fuck.
If you don't enjoy your job, try to change it. I don't love my job, but I like it; and the people are so great that it's a good fit. We still have to work, so make it something you don't loathe.
Trying to out-earn my age. Can you guess how that's going so far? :/
I just plan to live forever. Come 2176 I'm going to have enough money to retire in comfort.
Of course there are better systems, but the rich and powerful hold all the cards.
I slack. Oh boy do I slack. I'd work so harder if I thought I would actually get something for it. In fact, when I started my latest job, I was doing just that, because it seemed this company was different, and it's something I'm naturally good at. Got commended by my boss about how much I was doing, how quickly I was learning, how in a year I had already surpassed the next most recent hire that had been there for 2 years... Then time came for my review, and it was a "meets expectations". Like wtf do I have to do to exceed expectations? Then not long after, they started denying me time off, saying I had taken too much. Supposedly we had unlimited PTO, of which I had taken 2 weeks so far that year (1 week in March, the rest just single days here and there), and my request was for a week in July... Anywho long story short, I've pretty much figured out exactly how much I have to fake being busy to not get negative attention, and I do that. I milk cases for all they're worth. And I'm still getting more done than half my colleagues. I hate it, but it pays decently, so I have a hard time throwing it away for something that might be more fulfilling, but doesn't pay as well...
That is shitty. My heart goes out.
Hello twin
You don't.
But changing it probably involves a lot of dropping heavy, sharpened pieces of metal on a certain class of people.
Eventually you get to the point where you age-out of joy. I mean, sure, you try to throw yourself into your work, try to squeeze some semblance of satisfaction out of that dried raisin of a career. But it’s never the same as it used to be. It’s hollow, just like you, and you hate all of it. But what else are you gonna do? So you do your time and go home and stare at the wall; you have no desire to watch tv because it’s all the same bullshit you’ve seen for years. When you do watch tv, usually with your spouse who is little more than a grumpy roommate now. The tv screen is transparent, and you see nothing but the studs in the wall. The family mills about, completely clueless to the misery you are living. Sure you laugh, but it’s without the twinkle in your eye that you once had. You tend to spend a lot more time in the bathroom staring at yourself in the mirror, telling yourself you want to blow your brains out, but never do. Sometimes you cry in isolation. Most of the time you are numb and you sit there in silence. Otherwise, you pretend to do stuff until nightfall. Finally. You down some sleeping pills, go to bed early, doom-scroll for a few hours until the meds kick in. Lights out. You wake a few hours later, before the rest of the fucking world it seems, muttering the word “fuck”. Not with the frolicking fun connotation of youth, but in utter despair that you awoke at all. Again. So you drag yourself to that mirror, brushing your teeth, put on that hollow smile and start the day over. repeat. And again. And again.
I’m sorry, what was the question?
That's not an inevitability of life, that's just severe depression, my guy. Get help.
You might be experiencing anhedonia. Talk to a doctor, bro
Bleak, but yes.
I simply work part time on purpose. I don't have my own place (flatmates) so we all split the COL. It's not truly freedom, but it feels a lot more free than when I worked full time. I usually have enough to save a little and also because of this I am able to travel a few times a year. But you have to be REALLY able to manage your finances to live like this. I have no credit card and prepay everything ahead of time. It leaves me with a lot more time to enjoy LIFE. and feel less constantly tired as well.
For me, I look to the past to see what life could have been like were I born 100 - 200 -500 - 1,000 years ago and try to find the positives that being born now has.
And the reality is that even as soon as 100 years ago life was much, much harder and worse in almost every metric. Brutal jobs, brutal hours, with safety of no concern, even if you were a child. Housing? You were lucky if you could heat your home in some way in the winter, and air conditioning didnt even exist yet. Physical labor jobs were a large amount of the work, so many people simple worked themselves into uselessness and then suffered the rest of their lives.
It doesnt get much better going back further than that really. Plague anyone?
Today we enjoy a massive, massive amount of comfort in our lives. Have amazing, tasty, and safe food at our fingertips almost without issue. Can travel the entire globe effortlessly when even a cross country trek could have been a multi-month brutal affair with a death sentence for half the travel party. Modern medicine eliminates so many of the issues of the past.
In reality very few people "just" work for 40 years and then retire useless husks and then die. I suspect you spend some time with friends and loved ones, perhaps even travel and engage in leisure time kings and queens of 200 years ago couldnt dream of during those 40 years.
Lets be honest, my retirement plan is my corpse getting tossed in a dumpster.
Freeze me and launch my corpsicle at the Ted Cruz equivalent of that time.
Existential dread. I am not here to be a wage slave but I can't figure out how to get out. I just drink a lot
I stay physically active, just simple going to the gym 5-6 days a week.
jesus fuck how is that simple?
Maybe it's just a 10min walk to the gym? Saves a lot of money for membership as well.
Are you talking about time constraints? (again - no parental responsibilities here, so pretty simple) Or are you asking how I motivate myself?
Also, I meant simple as in, I don't play any sports, or do some varied types of physical activity. Just gym.
Simple doesnt necessarily mean easy to accomplish. I took it to mean they just go and so something as opposed to some structured, unwavering plan or training so hard they cant walk 5 days out of the weak.
Could probably accomplish something similar with 100-200 squats and push ups a day, but going to the gym gives you more variety
Your point about the mortgage eventually costing you more in the long run is exactly what I advocate for. So many moneybros out there advocate for living in squalor so you can both aggressively save for retirement and pay down all your loans.
But life is uncertain and even if you live a healthy life, you never know if you'll just be hit by a car and killed one day.
Life is about maintaining a balance. Sure, save for retirement, but don't do so so aggressively that you ruin your ability to be happy now.
Dunno but I am hoping aliens invade in the following years and make our existence more enjoyable than this ...
Drugs, mostly
Poorly.
I hate it. I started learning about FIRE, Financial Independence, Retire Early. The great part is that you can do what you want, you just have to match your spending to your income.
I hope for a better system for my kids' friends. (My kids will have me guiding them.)
The chase to grind up from Proletarian to Petite Bourgeoisie to eventually Bourgeoisie just to escape the Capitalist hellhole is downright dystopian.
For me I decided young that I needed a career that would take me places so I could have life experiences and maybe get a few bucks.
I applied to everything everywhere while I was working and always thought "it may suck, but at least it will be different."
There are better systems, but IMO I was never able to find or capitalize on them so i needed to focus on what my current goals were keeping in the back of my mind that this is a marathon, not a sprint.
Be aware that your peers that do amazing work and get promotions, get that easy job or just get a lucky break only affect your life negatively if you let it.
Positive "coping mechanisms" help when dealing with stress (exercise routine, yoga, whateverworks for you), when negative coping mechanisms hurt.
I've been lucky enough to live and work in some amazing places, and 35 years later we have finally found a place we want to "settle".
I can't imagine stopping to work. If I retire, I'll have no money. I cannot count on pension either.
But I have an IT job, it's just sitting in front of the computer all day; it's not like a physical job I wouldn't be able to do at old age.
Just wait until your eyesight fails you, and the joint that makes your mouse button click starts hurting.
Things that you love to do after work (like playing video games) start to sound like chores.
I'm not planning on being able to have an IT job in my old age. Seems likely that ageism or economic factors will conspire to make sure I can't. I'm planning on possibly involuntary retirement in my 50s.
If you work IT and can't envision having enough money saved to retire then you're doing something wrong.
There are better options for those who find a way.
Volunteer. The options are endless, you get to support your community and meet amazing people, and sometimes there's lunch involved.
Don't think about it.
I don't.
The key is to do your living now while you still can. Don't waste your youth on a grind that will get you nothing.
I don’t live for retirement like a lot of American culture has historically taught us to do. I work to live first and that means, as much as I can within my means, taking the time and investment to have experiences while I can. Too many people in my life have died before getting to retire without having done anything with their lives because they were so focused on having enough money to retire with that it’s not a regret I’m willing to risk.
I am taking reasonable steps toward financial security as I age, but it’s a secondary concern to living for now. If I die in a gutter, I’ll do it knowing I’ve lived the best life I could.
If you're lucky enough to find something you're passionate about you may not begrudge the work week. I never have, so i work to live, got into a reasonable paying sector, didn't waste money on oversized property or flash motors, as they're not my bag, but used the cash to go adventuring at weekends, snow boarding in winter, the job takes up more time than I'd like but i'm earning freedom tokens. That mentality helped me at least.
Living with disability like I do means that process has sped up significantly.
I found a job with a career track that I can retire from in 25 years max and I already have 5 years of service. The system you envision doesn't really exist yet.
I've been thinking about this since middle school (when I was thinking about what was waiting for me after school, which I wasn't much a fan of either) and I just distract myself by doing things I enjoy. If it occupies my mind too much, I take a hit of copium and tell myself that maybe I'll get lucky and strike it rich somehow to let me retire early.
First off, I'd try to find as much balance and joy as possible now. Don't wait for retirement. None of us know if we'll even be around at that point.
I also make sure to vote for people who want more work/life balance and more universal public services. Vacation time, family and parental leave, universal healthcare, affordable education, etc. Those are all things that free you mind to think about life and not just the basic necessities and surviving.
Sir, “Retired” is the opposite of “Start”.
Have you tried alcohol? That seems to be the popular approach.
the ideal way would be to build up passive income and/or outwaging your living costs by double or triple, but god knows how hard that is.
It is easy as shit to do that!
Step 1: Be born into wealth.
I don't know the other steps because I missed step one, but everyone I know that succeeded at step 1 is set for life.
I keep finding myself trying to imagine how to make enough money so my mom doesn't have to do this.
I love my job. I have crippling depression, so I won't live to retirement.
I hope you get through that.
Depression sucks, but it doesn't last forever and there's people who care about you, whether you think so or not.
Times are tough, but here's what's worked for me so far:
Depending on your circumstances, you might only have to work for 20 years, and if you do what you love, it won't feel like work.
Don't follow someone else's path. I took a year off to travel in my 20s, a year off to sail in my 30s, and now that I'm 40 I'm planning another year long adventure in the next 5 years. I wasn't born into wealth, I spent less than I earned, invested the rest, and avoided debt. Don't get a big house in the suburbs with a mortgage, new lease car every 4 years, etc unless that's what your actually want. Set yourself up for success with smart money management so you can do what you want.
Yes there are lots of useless jobs out there, but at least you're putting food on the table.
But also, you have to look at it from another angle.
Picture work as your way of trying to help advance humanity. Jobs, other than the useless ones I mentioned, all should have a reason behind their existence.
How about the fact that I literally cannot afford to house and feed my family with me and my wife working a useful job like teaching, so instead I'm driving around delivering pizzas because otherwise we would be out of money?
Die with Zero by Bill Perkins has some interesting takes on this.
I'm half done. I've kept up my health and I'm trying to improve it even more. When I hit 65 I won't be too old to do much.
But the real question should be what are you waiting until retirement to do and why not do it sooner?
The answer is: do a job you like and do the things you like. I’m due to retire in ten years and won’t be doing so. I won’t work as much but I will work
It’s easier in some countries than others. But the key is not wasting time on things that you feel pressured to do because of societal norms or because you’re too lazy to do anything different.
Hate to say it, but I actually enjoy my job. Would I rather be playing video games and vacationing with friends in the mountains? Of course. But I'd also like to eat potato chips and pizza every day, which would get boring. I work in oil and gas, in environmental, and the money is decent and everyone is just trying really hard to do the right thing and meet government regulatory requirements at every step--regardless of mainstream anti-O&G sentiments. I deal with technical challenges, engineering complexity, and social diversity every day and my brain is better off for it than if I were just cozy on my couch instead. I do consider becoming self employed though--not because I hate my job, but because I would appreciate more control over my own life.
Don't think. Just work.
Wow you put my exact thoughts into meme form. Bravo!
im at 30+ (if you don't include working while at school but depending on your parents but still basically constantly having to do something you don't really want to) and the real scary thing is I don't see a time where I will be able to afford to retire but at somepoint I just will physically or mentally not be able to and then I have not idea how I will make things work since everything will get more expensive given I am physically and mentally unable to do things like work. socail security will be a bit inadequate and savings will drain until presumably I will be in some medicaid institution with my wife.
Enjoy life now and realise that the 65 of tomorrow isn't the 65 of 100 years ago?
People live in good shape for at least 15 years after they retire, just stay in shape in the meantime and you'll be both having fun while you're young and having fun when you retire.
And retirement age is being bushed back using that as an argument.
Depends where you live and also on how much you're able to set aside, but worst case you're still keeping yourself in shape and doing activities in the meantime. That's what people like OP seem to skip over, work doesn't have to be the only thing you do with your life for 40 years (for most people anyway).
Have you heard of the five stages of grief? That's probably the best first way to deal with it. No capitalist/socialist/fascist/technocratic/authoritarian utopia will be able to fix that. I don't believe there is a better system yet than what the western world already has. Maybe one day UBI will exist and everyone will have more freedom to enjoy their passions but even then it you'll still have to work most of your life.
Best you can do is figure out what you want out of your life and take the steps to do it. Like what most people have said, living below your means helps with funding your goals and protecting yourself against accidents. Find ways to do what you want now but know there's always a trade off. It isn't fair but I don't think it ever has been, except for a very privileged class of people.
Live in a country with a decent amount of vacation days.
and if in germany, get yourself a schwerbehindetenausweis and show it to your employer. they have to give you 5 extra days off when the GDB is at least 50.
I honestly prefer not being eligible for that to having extra vacation days.
What is this? I don't speak German so Google wasn't really useful
What if you're not disabled?
Good luck finding a job, though.
In what is that a solution :) ? Working 40+ years except 30days per year still make you lose your time, no?
Thank God immigration is such a cheap and accessible option to everyone!
Or work for the government if you're in the US