The state of the discourse.

This it the bottom so far you mean.

Next bottom is whether the infants are conspirators or not.
- Even better, infant body armor
Its hard to imagine how it could dive down even further but to their credit those mossad lads are clever propagandists. But I don't know like.
- Sadly war sucks ass.
  If it was a command post then there must be a path for Israel to attack. It’s not like Hamas gets to use “one weird trick” to exclude their command center from being a valid target.
  If Israel thought it was a military target, did every thing else right, but sucked up then it’s a sucky product of urban war.
  If Israel knew it was really only a hospital and attacked anyway — then they are morally and strategically fucked. Rightfully so. (Kinda like how other countries have also overreacted to a terrorist attack and gone after the wrong target).
  And of course the reality of all this probably doesn’t matters because a large number of people make up their mind first and from then on ignore and other intelligence even when it’s gathered.
- those mossad lads are clever propagandists
  I believe Mossad is special forces and intelligence gathering, not PR/propaganda dissemination. These are the agencies you're thinking of. That's like saying Navy Seals or the CIA are responsible for white house press briefings.

That's because apparently someone decided, without discussion, that setting military headquarters in a hospital - where babies are born - is absolutely fine and moral move.

He said, believing the IOF, who has killed Palestinians with absolute impunity, and lying through the teeth about it
- What would convince you? Based on what I can glean from various sources, it seems at least likely that the claim is true. I also don't see what incentive the Israelis have to lie about it.
- Huh?
- Don't forget the hasbara bots upvoting him!
Killing a building full of women and children to go after a group of people who may or may not be in said building after they killed women and children...
Two unscrupulous groups are willing to murder innocent civilians. Sounds like two groups of terrorists.
Fuck Hammas, fuck the IDF. I'm absolutely fine with them killing each other. I'm not okay with the fact that they're both using innocent civilians as pawns.
- That's a point of view I am willing to accept
Has there even been any evidence of that?
- https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-it-has-clear-information-linking-shifa-hospital-to-hamas-held-hostages/
Putting aside the lack of evidence of this, and the Israeli government's history of being caught lying about this kind of thing, how many civilians is it defensible to kill per Hamas militant, and does the calculus change if they're children?
...or are we taking the super credible IDF line and saying the infants are Hamas militants?
- Putting aside existing evidence for it
  There isn't a specific count. Just like there is no count for "how many Russian civilians has to die for each Ukrainian soldier". Israel didn't ask this war, Hamas did. Hamas is in charge of Gaza, not Israel.
- Israel at least has a government and a democracy, and the government even has been somewhat honest with the NSO group and their crappy spyware tools - though I'm not sure why any of this needs to involve bombing hospitals or why "a functional democracy" has to be defended with such fervour, but hey at least we can hold onto the hope that democracy itself will mean that there will be a degree of accountability for those in power
Tactical placement and all haha
So then when terrorists use human shields, which in this case include literal babies, it's okay to ignore the human shields and just indiscriminately attack?
- I didn't say "it was okey". I said i do understand why that happens. I am also saying Israel takes some steps to limit the number of civil victims, while Hamas takes none
We need a hell of a lot more evidence to support that than we've seen, it would still run into major problems with proportionality/distinction standards regarding all the civilians they killed in and around the hospital, and it wouldn't make a scratch with regard to the other civilian infrastructure they've targeted.

Judging from the comments, we can go lower.

"Truly this is the bottom"
Conservatives everywhere brandishing shovels: "Challenge accepted"
Someone just called this post "pearl clutching" in this very thread. We're fucked.
I like your outlook. Besides your general observation of the Lemmy hivemind, let us know what you think about the conflict itself

To people saying it's justified because Hamas are hiding there, if Hamas wants to kill as many Israelis as possible they could hide in a Israeli hospital and the IDF, being consistent, would bomb it just the same since it now became a military target. Right?

Yeah, you know they wouldn't, not the same way at least. Somehow Palestinians are an acceptable collateral while Israeli, specially Jews, would never be. That's how you know this isn't about Hamas.

Very good point! I will steal it and pretend I'm as smart as you
Except Hamas is the government in Gaza and can setup pretty much whatever situation it wants to there, while it is hated in Israel outside of Gaza and would be prevented from taking an Israeli hospital and constructing elaborate tunnels under it. That's kind of like saying "If Russia wants Ukraine so bad, why doesn't it just take Kyiv?" Because it can't. There's a bunch of obstacles stopping it, otherwise it obviously would.
Who would think that in a war, the people opposing you would be treated differently than your own people? This is the reality of war and not specific to this conflict.
- The civilians of Palestine are not the "opposition"
- The question is do Jewish people expect mercy from the one above? Or do they think the lord is someone they'll explain themselves to and is supposed to be their friend and just be like yeah sweet? Like imagine how disappointed that a higher power or super intelligence would be 🤣
Can't tell if you're just trying to sound ironically dumb or not?
Israel would storm it's own hospital with troops as would any other country. Bombs were used in Gaza before there was security on the ground. Dropping special forces off in the middle of Hamas held territory would turn into Black Hawk Down 2
You think Israel would just let them take one of their hospital in the first place ? Why would that happen in the first place ? There would be an immediate military intervention , before they are deeply embedded
In Palestine tho, hamas does what it wants. And nobody is there to stop them. So they already are in the hospitals, and in the streets leading to hospital, and watching the neighborhood where those are.
I don't think your comparison holds up as the double standard you think it is. Isreal have been bombing locations that potentially hold their own civilians being held as hostages.
Without being too serious, don't give the terrorists good ideas 🤣

And if it turns out that the accusation Hamas was using the basement as a command post is true, is that the new bottom?

Using the hospital for anything other than helping people is a bottom. They are both trash entities.
- And fun fact: bombing/attacking a hospital is not a war crime per the Geneva Conventions Article 52, if it is being used as a military objective.
I mean what's worse: using a human shield, or deciding "nah fuck them kids shoot through them anyway."
- What if they were shooting your kids while hiding behind their own? Would you let them keep doing it while insisting that reprisals are off limits?
Still not a good reason to kill babies...
- I would resign on the spot if I ever got an order like that. I don't care if Nazis are resurrecting Hitler in the basement of the hospital, I can't trade babies and children as acceptable collateral.
They had tunnels under it and the Israelis needed an excuse for having hit a Hospital when they were carpet bombing. So, no, there was no command post. No one shall ever be shown anything but the photos which could have been taken anywhere. None of which would change the bottom that bibi and hamas are the same picture.

Demanding an evacuation of a hospital full of patients, under the threat of bombardment, only for those patients to die of complications for not being treated, this is just a more silent mass murder.

It would be cool if Hamas didn't fire rockets from the vicinity of schools of hospitals though wouldn't it?
- There's definitely no possibility that Israel does stuff like that and then blames it on its enemies to justify its actions. No way.
- These two points are not antithetical.
- It would be cool if the counter battery from a highly technical country hit the rockets instead of collapsed the building. Which is entirely possible.

It's like everyone's opinion is "my tribe is always right and deserves all the sympathy, the other tribe is always wrong and deserves all the suffering". No one cares about solutions or examining why a conflict has persisted for 80 years. Humans are so predictable.

It's not even "my tribe".
Hardly anyone posting here is Israeli or Palestinian. It's just distracting nonsense to divide us. Pick a side plebs. Look, those people have picked the other side. Hate them!
- To be fair it isn't the Israeli or Palestinian population is their governments. The populations are just sorta a second thought given both seem to be majority against it.
- Hey this guy hasn't picked a side, get them!
- Fighting a culture war to prevent you fighting a class war.
Enlightened, middle-ground centrist. We found you.
- Friendly reminder that a defining characteristic of a fascist is drawing hard in-group out-group lines.
  (And another is the fetishization and glorification of violence against the out-group)
I wish two groups of people determined to kill each other could take it away from the civilian population, to say nothing of using human shields and attacking irrespective of potential collateral damage and non combatant deaths
- More like two groups of people determined to kill civilian populations. Keeping it away from civilians would defeat the whole purpose.
- The irony in this post is palpable.
- Love your humour dude
- "It's like people refuse to acknowledge the wrongdoings of their own tribe."
  FTFY
No, we're finding new ways to commit familicide though!
Humans are manipulable, especially in large numbers. Humans are violent, but not irrational. It takes convincing for that.
- People are absolutely irrational, especially in groups

Do people think Hamas wouldn't hide in a hospital? Theyve proved many times civilians aren't a concern

Do people think that there can't be two bad guys in a story? This isn't a good vs evil fight.
- "Good guys" are a myth invented by Hollywood to sell action figures
- Do people think that there can’t be two bad guys in a story?
  You're not going to like the answer...
- This is a war between two terrorist organizations, one of them is funded by the United States.
  We are funding terrorism. Your tax dollars are going to infant murder.
- It truly is a wonder some can't think that far
So, that justifies killing civilians?
- no, that justifies invading a hospital
- That's literally war. Become a general/propose a way to kill /apprehend people that look like civilians while hiding in civilian places
I think Hamas is hiding inside your house. What, do people think Hamas wouldn't hide inside your house?
- Do you consider that a good rebuttal. Truly a childish mind. Of course you can't comprehend complex situations
ok but if they're hiding in a hospital you dont need to bomb it? or do anything to it? hiding is not hurting anyone.
- hiding is not hurting anyone.
  The assholes in the hospital are still shooting at the assholes outside the hospital. Though I still agree the assholes outside shouldn't be bombing it just to get at the assholes inside.
- For conflicts like this leadership that is planning attacks or otherwise leading forces that are doing attacking, simply existing anywhere outside a prison cell is threatening. Hamas leadership knows that, they're the ones putting hostpitals at risk by being there.
- Depends. Are they artillery spotters. Are they leadership trying to claim to be in a safe you can't tag me zone. Did they just momentarily hide their guns too. Ya gotta secure that shit one way or another otherwise you'll get another massacre.
  There are no good answers
Hamas and Hezbollah are not the public of Palestine. So it raises the question if anybody cares. Netanyahu has made it clear to the rest of us he does not.
- They look just like the public and fighting from where the public lives. What is Israel to do? Just accept getting massacred.

The bottom so far

Does no one remember the 1 million innocent Iraqis we killed based on a lie?
I would argue that is the most recent rock bottom we have come to since world war II.
We bombed people in their homes relentlessly. They were not going after military targets, it was an indiscriminate slaughter of mostly innocent people. Hundreds of thousands of children.
We have committed genocide purely for profit and power, very recently. Remember that when our government tries to defend Israel's actions. They are following our playbook.
There have been leaked conversations from Israeli officials stating that the war between them and Hamas helps them maintain power over Israeli citizens. They are creating more terrorists on purpose to leverage control over their people. What else happens when your family gets eradicated in a bombing? You go after those that are responsible, and joining Hamas is the easiest route to exact your revenge on those who killed your family.
- That study was pulled for being ridiculous. The Iraq Body Count Project estimates 7300 civilian deaths over a far larger operations area, with far more forces involved, March 21 to May 1.
Nowhere near the nightmare fuel of total familicide 🤣

Have they tried not genociding?

Have you tried not justifying murdering babies and sick, defenseless people?
- I can't tell which side you're criticizing here.
- Nice how you assume I meant one side when both Hamas and lil' bibi are hell bent upon genocide. Perhaps your assumptions of which subject I meant is telling?
- Have you tried a wording that doesn't fucking indict both sides?

https://effectiviology.com/argument-from-incredulity/

Informal fallacies are best fallacies.
Argument from incredulity is "this sounds absurd, therefore it's false." That's not what this is, this is just pointing out absurdity.
- Think about it again, what's the difference?
  By the way, I didn't say that this post claims it's false. It's worse. This post begs the reader to claim it's false on the authors behalf

Is that really what we're debating? We all know it isn't.

What's important is can they get away with it before losing the support of those propping them up.

When the US and their buddies bombed the fuck out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and we all gathered around to watch the display of "shock and awe" did we bother to find out what they were bombing? Or did we just just go "take that, Taliban and Al-Qaida"?

Anything Israel are doing has been done before by their allies. They know it's shady as fuck, but also know they got away with it too.

When the war on Iraq and Afghanistan started, I stood with my children, one in a stroller outside of Dick Cheney 's house in silent protest. During the Vietnam war I made several trips to Washington DC to protest the war. There is no upside to war. What we can do today, is call, email your senator and congressman that you want the killing to stop, you want the USA to stop funding this genocide. Call every day, it only takes a few minutes and if everyone did that, we would have an impact.
We did actually. With embedded reporters and human rights activists keeping an eye on things to make sure. There aren't a ton of headlines about the US bombing hospitals because we avoided doing that. Shocking, I know.
So, what're the chances you've got nothing to say about the cache of weapons & explosives they found under the hospital along with the fact that it was indeed a Hamas outpost?
???
After all you're educated enough on the subject that you're aware it'd been suspected as a Hamas outpost for years, yes?
???
Wonder how many people you've personally lied to that've seen through the manipulation and propaganda.
And to save you the trouble of responding, fake news, planted goods, paid actors - pick one and go fuck myself. Got it.
When the US and their buddies bombed the fuck out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and we all gathered around to watch the display of “shock and awe” did we bother to find out what they were bombing? Or did we just just go “take that, Taliban and Al-Qaida”?
I was a teenager when that happened and didn't give a fuck about what's going on in the world, honestly. I didn't particularly care for 9/11 either tho, so there's that.

oh, i'm sure it can go lower. just give it time

So what have the israelis actually found??

What I saw was a handful of weapons and a laptop. Not some headquarters

Very unconvinced so far. But the fog of war and disinformation is in full swing

They release proof of the hostages being taken there directly after the attack.
It looks as if Hamas sensed the attack coming and pulled out before the IDF arrived
All the doctors there claiming there never was any Hamas there are kind of full of shit - if people with a meat cleaver walking the hallways having people with bags on their heads in tow is normal there I'm not sure what to think anymore...
- It would be completely normal to take injured hostages/prisoners to a hospital, and keep them under guard. In fact it's the required action in international law.
  So no the presence of a couple bodies in the morgue and a few guys with AKs doesn't prove shit.

Twitter is full of professional pearl clutchers

Whether you agree or not, comparing someone talking about bombing and killing children on ventilators to "pearl clutching" is pretty grim, my dude.
- Let's all rally around this.

It's sort of getting debated because it was used as the place where hostages where kept and where Hamas militia were operating from. But I guess that wasn't significant enough to raise eyebrows.

Nah. We got several floors below this one, miss. You must be new here. Next floor?

Are those the floors the terrorists were hanging out or were those the floors they found the hostage bodies on?
Can't keep track these days.
- Whatever fits their current narrative.

Sanity keeps falling out of the Overton window like it's an oligarch visiting the Kreml.

Hamas should be operating out of a Palestinian military base.

(/s and if you're not sure why please do look it up)

i used to support 🇵🇸 then they paraded innocent cadavers through their streets. Even i a communist have my limits
But bombing is always criminal. IDF are cowards to not storm in with swords shields
- You used to support (Palestine) but then the (entire 5M current population of Palestinian) paraded innocent cadavers through their streets?
- IDF are cowards to not storm in with swords shields
  Lol?

Please for the love of God let this be the bottom

That's exactly why this isn't the bottom

On the false preposition that an air duct is hiding Hamas.

Holy crap - this place is crawling with hasbara.

You think it's the bottom now? Just wait 72 hours...

Aids, bombs and petrol. Nah I actually hope it doesn't go there but I can totally see people choosing to be assholes while having the time of their lives. Absolutely not cool but hey man if earth was a television channel for the aliens, ahem, we'd probably be pretty far out in the shit sticks

Depends how you invade. If there's nothing there to shoot at then there'll be no shooting.

No one is debating that at this point, anyone aware of the situation knows for a fact that this is a genocide, just like the one US did in Iraq and Syria, and just like isis and alqaeda, hamas is a cia puppet org. Everyone realized that, everyone except the US

Ok yes but Israel is invading so it's ok right

It’s against TOS to defend Israel so this is a giant echo chamber

The actions of Israel? Indefensible.
The civilians of Israel? They deserve a home just as much as every other human, as much as every Palestinian, and that shouldn't be controversial to say.
- Can you expand on what you mean when you say "deserve a home"?