Girls, stop enticing men

It's interesting that in the military that is largely flipped. There's pages of rules for what facial hair is allowed, how long it can be, how far past the corner of the mouth it can be, the length of both individual hairs as well as bulk and where hair can be, one specific uniform for each occasion, nail length (kept short) with no color, and all manner of other things.

On the women's side, they get a wide variety of hairstyles (including any and all that men have), longer nails allowed, multiple shirt, pant/skirt, and shoe options for formal wear, and the rules are generally less rigidly followed.

The amount of men butthurt by the difference in standards is hilarious. It's like "oh, first time?" I guarantee they didn't make a fuss when their high school didn't allow spaghetti straps.

Shorts over bathing suits is such a weird one to me. Like... Bathing suit is fine in the water, going in to the water, getting out of the water. But you best cover that shit up for lake activities or whatever. Like what a weird line to draw.

Edit: You know what? These are all really weird. Like... No white t shirts? Are you afraid of them getting wet and maybe revealing the bathing suit they are probably wearing underneath? No two peice bathing suit? Because heaven forbid you show off the most sexual part of the body - the stomach? Like... That's the difference between a one peice and a two piece, right? The stomach? The back? Maybe it's to reduce the chance of a "wardrobe malfunction"?

I dont know.

The funny things about the boys rules is that they mostly boil down to "don't let us catch you looking too much like a girl" but also "don't let us catch you looking too much like an adult man, either"

No long hair. But also no facial hair.

No piercings. No visible tattoos. Nothing that might look like a weapon (including combs, heavy shoes, and tshirts with pictures of guns on them).

No eyeliner or hairspray or jewelry. Nothing too punk but also nothing too fruity. Absolutely nothing that might be scary looking. Or drug affiliated. Or queer.

Heaven fucking help you if you look queer. Summer camps hate that.

Mens fashion is all about compliance with the uniform
The only thing worse than looking LGB is looking T+ heaven forbid your gender identity doesn't fit the binary you were assigned at birth
When I was young, the boys' public school dress code did exclude sleeveless shirts, the girls' did not. Boys' dress code excluded skirts, girls' did not. Nobody could have short shorts.
Church camp, well it's Florida, everyone wore swimsuits to swim, there was no mention of modesty about that, because swimwear is appropriate attire for swimming.
Nothing that might look like a weapon
Am I too european to understand that?
Also, why would you stop boys from wearing colorful sarongs, surfer mustache and stylish earrings? Isn‘t that what a summer camp should be about?
- Am I too european to understand that?
  It's about on par with the UK obsession over Knife Crime.
  Isn‘t that what a summer camp should be about?
  Summer camp is about putting the kids somewhere cheap so you can keep doing your day job uninterrupted.
- it's a conservative christian thing to ban much of that stuff but I imagine the person you are commenting on probably thought it matched the tone of the original post

Let's see... boys rules. Shave and clean haircut, don't look like a bum. No feminine clothing. Your job is to protect and provide for women. No jewelry. Stop plucking your eyebrow hair like a fggt. Real men don't put much effort into personal comportment or clothing selection, again, what are you a fggt? Your job is to always let women have priority because you're of no matter to anybody. I could keep going.

I can’t tell if you’re being serious or not.
Yes, there are some bullshit societal rules for us that are pretty ridiculous but a) they aren’t written down and policed heavily by community members and b) lots of people go against it pretty easily these days.
Also that rule is…you sure about that one? You good there bud?

As someone who was abused, it's always the girl's fault. Just existing is enough. This is especially reinforced in Christian and camp circles, because one of the first stories you learn is all sin started with Eve, and women are why we're all damned.

Men are tempted, women are tempters – that's how it's always been.

Exactly! This is why females need to be modest! Besides, the bathing suits from over 100 years ago were a lot more modest than they are now. :-(
- I just love wearing a wool full-body suit in the water. That wet sock feeling all over my body, down to my calves, is just chef’s kiss.

As once a boy & now a man. It's simple. Be embarrassed. This applies to any form of sexuality or gender.

I've been fit for my entire life and wished it wouldn't be weird for me to wear a T-shirt while swimming.

There's always more than two sides. That's why I don't flip coins, I roll dice.

Wear a sun shirt, and then when people ask just say "it's better for my skin" and then drop that mic.

Boys also aren't allowed to wear bikinis, and their swimsuits are (usually) shorts already.

No white Tees is BS though.

However, without context, I would hazard a guess that the summer camp has a religious affiliation (most do). My YMCA affiliated summer camp required that all campers attend chapel on Sunday. I "learned" the "hard way" that not participating at chapel was "punished" by being sent to the cafeteria to play games and eat extra breakfast with the non-christian staffers.

I would bet that if tight speedos came back into fashion there would be a rule against boys wearing those.
There's definitely an element of society telling women and girls what to do with their bodies. But, there's also an element of women/girls wanting to wear very revealing clothing, and boys/men wanting to wear less revealing clothing. Male swimwear is mostly shorts these days, at least in North America, for women it's a lot more revealing. Male office wear is suits, or at least button down shirts that are buttoned to the top. For women it's often a top with cleavage or at least upper chest showing, even in businesswear. A woman who wears a male-style shirt that covers up everything below the neck is pretty unusual. Then there's the legs. A woman wearing a skirt is seen as completely normal in a "business wear" office, but a man wearing shorts is most definitely not.
- This is a horse/cart situation and basing your logic and reasoning on cultural norms makes for an incredibly fragile foundation.
  Women want to wear more revealing clothing because society tells them that that's what women are expected to wear and vice versa for men. The entirety of "business wear" is a paradigm created over a century ago when men were considered professionals and women were considered hired help at best and office decorations at worst. The word "scientist" was coined to describe a woman with a degree in science because the term up until then, man of science, didn't apply and they couldn't just call her a "doctor of x" because she held 3 doctorates in different fields. When the Romans first invaded Britain, they mocked the English for wearing pants, something that only women wore in Italy. Right up until the first chill breeze went up their skirts, then pants were suddenly incredibly manly.
  Speaking of pants, have you ever looked at women's pants? Pockets are a rarity because they mess up the clean lines and form of the hips. That's not something women choose. Ask any woman and I bet she'll have plenty to say about the lack of pockets in women's clothing, and none of it will be good. A pair of good pants with pockets is a jealously guarded treasure to be well cared for lest they wear out. Clothes designers care more about the form of women('s clothes) than the function.
  I bet you if speedos made a comeback, the fuss would be from older men saying that they looked gay or feminine.
- But, there's also an element of women/girls wanting to wear very revealing clothing, and boys/men wanting to wear less revealing clothing.
  The boys are literally going topless.
It is the "Young Man's Christian Association" after all
- Aka the OG Grindr

Just in case the President of the United States wanders into camp.

POTUS. Paedo Of The United States.
- PEDUS
Given his track record of he did the opposite rules would be mandatory

American prudishness is weird as fuck.

Europe did ship off their most extreme Christian sects to here
- But also all their radicals and revolutionaries and criminals.

This is for a kids summer camp? Who is the no white T-shirt rule for, the camp staff?

It's for the pubescent kids. Why wouldn't it be?
Can't be tempting the paedos that run the place, can we?

Maybe if we didn't divide people by sex and assign gender norms from birth we would learn how to interact before puberty without sexual objectification. It would make navigating teenage years a lot easier if we started than with a gender/sex diverse social group opposed to the current default being through the lens of objectification.

we would learn how to interact before puberty without sexual objectification.
Most kids do if you leave them alone. It's the adults that have them problems with it. I had zero interest in sex until at least 15 at the earliest. Adults are the problem, as per usual.
- That's interesting, I remember thinking teachers classmates moms were hot when I was in kindergarten and 1st grade. I didn't really know what to do with that feeling but it was definitely there.
- Agreed and yeah that's the point.
  Not being comfortable socially with girls/women and being force-fed masculinity made my life and the life of women around me so much more difficult in my teens/early adulthood. Social skills are so much harder to develop, and cognitive biases so much harder to correct as an adult.
- I'm 54. Still zero interest in sex. I can't fathom why people have to be so obsessed with it, because life is fine without it, but that's probably just me.
Maybe if we didn’t divide people by sex and assign gender norms from birth we would learn how to interact before puberty without sexual objectification.
Part of the problem with teenagers - particularly young teenagers - is that they're very self-obsessed and mood driven. Like, it's easy to say "just raise your kids better" when you're not deal with the bubbling caldron of hormones kettled inside a head that literally physically hasn't fully developed the faculties to process the emotions.
That's not to defend gender norms. But it's certainly easier to go with the "Lord of the Flies" flow than it is to bend the tidal force that is clichish, selfish, horny, and often violent teenage base tendencies.
It would make navigating teenage years a lot easier if we started than with a gender/sex diverse social group
It's helpful when teenagers have a group they can empathize with at an early age. But that doesn't work at a summer camp full of people who haven't met before.
Kids routinely can and do self-segregate along age and appearance and behavior. It takes a lot of human labor to undo the natural impulses of young kids.
And that means hiring more people, which costs more money, which cuts into the profit of the camp owners.
- We definitely make it hard on parents. I'm making no conjecture on such a societal difference would impact parental workloads. That's another conversation worth having though.
  That said, i think it should be pretty easy not to tease or shame children for being friends with the other sex. And gender neutral clothing costs the same as gendered clothing so 🤷
But that's logical! /j
While it would definitely help, the truth is kids brains are a hormonal mess. No matter what and how well we teach 'em, there comes a 'breaking point' where the chemical imbalance will override any 'training'
While double standards absolutely suck and should be eliminated wherever possible I think it's totally fair to have rules like this for kids (at least for now)
Just because my 13 year old brain knew 'girls are people too doesnt mean my 13 year old hormones cared about that when saying 'I like this'
This is not something that can be fixed overnight or in a single generation. And it will never be fixed 100%.
I can pretty much guarantee that even in the remote villages where toplessness is a normal part of everyday life there are still the 'oddballs' who love boobs and sexualize them.
- Besides what the other person said, it's much deeper than "boobs = sexy." It's a culture that blames young girls for boys and grown men finding them sexually attractive. Even in your "oddballs" example, we don't ban people from going barefoot because some people are into feet (probably the most common fetish in the world thanks to biology). If people have a problem with that, it's their problem, not the person that they're objectifying.
  I agree that it's not a quick fix, but it starts with teaching boys to have some simple self control and basic empathy and not making the girls shoulder all the responsibility of boys being horny. But that also starts long before you ever get to a summer camp, and that's also an important part of the topic. Like I said, it's a deeply rooted cultural issue.
- Never said there was an overnight or one-stop fix.
  I'm suggesting that with children developing socially together throughout childhood without being forced to conform to pink and blue norms we would be a lot better off navigating the social challenges we face during sexual development.
  That opposed to the experience we had in my youth of peeking over the proverbial wall staring into the garden at what we had been told our whole lives were strange creatures that bore sex as their primary purpose rather than being people who had the same human experiences and emotions as us.
  Also i disagree with your sentiment about training and breaking points. Children can easily understand consent. They do, however, need mentors facilitating an environment safe enough they can talk through feelings.
  E: rewording some stuff to avoid binaries, assigning genders, etc

oh no don't wear spaghetti straps and show your bra. Girls emulate older women at a much younger age. If boys were wearing speedo's and skin tight pants then they'd also have rules but its not something boys do. There are more rules for girls when it comes to clothing because girls tend to develop a sense of fashion earlier. Boys pick up 4 day old clothing off the ground and wear it.

But young boys also have rules like no profanity or offensive clothes and you can't wear certain gym clothes as regular everyday wear like gym shorts. They also get a ton more focus on their behavior since the trouble they get into is how they act day to day. Can anyone source any camp rules where there are no rules for boys?

Girls only dress up because they are forced to stay clean, their ripped clothes are taken away and everything they are given is less rugged, so curation is important.
You bet if girls break any of the boys rules they get punished.
- From my experience girls dress up because they like to get dressed up. It's part of finding their identity. Boys do it by trying to behave like what they think strong men are and girls do it through clothing. Both instance they pick adults that shouldn't be marketed at kids but unfortunately are like Andrew Taint or whatever adult women pop singer is in that week.
  If boys wore strap tank tops they would also be disciplined. Nothing really tragic is going on here

the scary thing is that those rules were probably put in place because of the grown up councillors 🤢

Here we go again, women and girls being responsible for how men and boys behave.

that's a good way to put it, it's victim blaming in a way
- It's quite literally victim blaming. Blaming girls for boys and even adult men from being unable to stop themselves from sexually assaulting them.

i'd react the same way cuz i hate unequal gender division.

if they tell her she has to wear something different they should also tell boys to wear something different.

i hope it bothers her also when rules are unequal against males too. If so, good daughter. Smite those gender divisions.

I mean, i think if one of the boys tried to wear a bikini theyd tell him to wear something different too.

No rules about femboys though? I see a loophole here.

I don't think Linux devs go to summer camps...
Maybe don't refer to femboys when talking about 12 year olds?
- Being a femboy isn't inherently sexual.
Genuinely wonder how they'd react to a boy showing up in a two-piece like some kind of gacha femboy.

The boys' rules are pretty simple.

Drive safe. Don't rape.

The boys’ rules are pretty simple.
limit yourselves to 12 dick pics or less.
- Sending or receiving?

What are the enbies allowed or not allowed to wear?

- Oof
- Oooh snap, I feel that.

I remember my time as a boy... Back then the rules for us were "whatever dumb shit you're thinking of doing, fucking don't!".

Ever get chased through the fields with the nice, big, beautiful stick you brought back earlier that day? Ever had heavy stuff thrown at you for doing some really dumb shit?
Ever left the home with a deep, resentful glare burning through the back of your skull?

It's difficult to lay down rules for boys because in general, we're dumb as shit doing dumb shit all the time. So there's almost always one, unspoken rule for boys: "Just fucking don't!"

The problem though is that girls are held upon to a higher standard. There are expectations of a higher level of civility and understanding, though undue in my opinion. Some of y'all were as dumb as the rest of us and were treated unfairly due to those higher standards.

But let's face it, as parents or adults, we all probably tend to have a similar kind of bias towards our own kids. Some of them are dumb as shit and while we worry about them, every time they plan to do something stupid, the inner voice we won't admit to is saying "please, oh please, just fucking don't!". Meanwhile, the kids we worry about less as they know their shit, they have clear, but few specific rules because we believe that's what they need.

So, in my humble opinion as a formerly dumb boy/kid, the lack of written rules more likely means there are too many, unpredictable rules that have to be managed proactively.

Btw, unrelated question, has anyone managed to get squirrels drunk in those camps of yours? I know it was on a to-do list at one point...

None of that is "rules for boys" though. They apply to all kids. If a girl is acting rambunctious, she'll get told to stop too. Often for behavior the boys don't even get called out for because, as you said yourself, girls are held to a higher standard of civility.
It's very easy to lay down rules for boys. Don't ogle, grope, or otherwise assault someone just because they're wearing a two - piece swimsuit. Let people wear what they want, even if it's a white shirt. Don't let the outer appearance of anyone be the guide to make up a fantasy in your head and decide what kind of person they are.
See? That wasn't very hard.
I think not all hope is lost, but you're missing the point here, with a bit of the ol' "boys will be boys" attitude mixed in. First of all, it doesn't help to treat boys (or any teenager for that matter) as some form of intermittent lifeform on its way to achieve full sentience. They're not animals, and most of them haven't been dropped off in the jungle and were raised by wolves. They can, and have to, learn what is acceptable behavior, as well as empathy for those that surround them.
Dismissing any form of accountability and consistently shifting the blame to a 14 year old girl wearing a white shirt at a lake function enforces stereotypes and societal preconceptions that I can only call disgusting.
- The rules aren’t because boys will “ogle” the girls, it’s because some religious fuckhead has inserted their views onto society.
  Those in power want to enforce abrahamic religious norms. It about control, they don’t care about protecting children.
- I dunno. I think a little ogling is fine, just don’t make people uncomfortable.
  But yeah. Maybe don’t touch even if they’re naked without consent?
  Edit: curious what the downvotes are for. Do people want to touch without consent? Because I sure as hell don’t to be touched, whether or not I have clothes on. And I wouldn’t want that on other people either
Ever left the home with a deep, resentful glare burning through the back of your skull?
Yes, but that's on trauma, not on weird social rules on genders. (I'm a woman.)
I remember being kids and an adult ruined our fun game of throwing spears at each other.
I don't really understand how what you've written relates to boys being allowed to wear white shirts, but not girls.
- I assume they're responding to the end of the meme that says "Where are the boys' rules?" - these are the boys rules - "just don't", basically

these are the boys' rules.

They should all be wearing sun protective clothing. Slip slap slop slide you little shits.

Maybe?

These rules sound like the intention is to not enforce stereotypical sex roles.

Not saying I agree this is the right approach. I think people should be able to wear anything they like.

aren't they modesty rules that perpetuate the idea that girls' bodies are sexual while boys' bodies are not?
- I get the feeling that the intention is to use clothing to make both sexes plain and put them on the same level. Like, not lean in to societys expectation that women should wear sexy stuff. But I guess your takeaway is just as valid.
  Perhaps they should have included some clothing guidelines for boys too.