American "left" and "liberal" can't decide if they're in the same nutshell.

Republicans are the Fascist Party, Democrats are the Conservative Party; Dem Soc are the moderate party. We don’t have a left party in the US.

PSL exists belive it or not
- .ml user detected, opinion disregarded
- Only party I support at this point.
- They have yet to field a successful candidate for public office; imma stick to the dem socialists for now
You don’t have to have a party for an ideology to exist.
- True, but it’s hard to get elected to office without a party
- It's a good thing that that's not what they said, then.

Liberals don't know they're conservatives.

There's lots of discussion below, but liberalism is the belief that enfranchisement and liberation comes from private property, which at one time was progressive in the face of feudalism. But since WW1, liberalism has not been a progressive movement as it has captured all of the private property in the world. Liberals are capitalists, leftists are not. Leftists (mostly) believe in class struggle, liberals (mostly) do not.
Leftists see the problems with private property and strive for social enfranchisement, even at the expense of private property rights, particularly where such "rights" are a function of one dominant class over the rest. To leftists, the social is material. Liberals mostly struggle to even conceive of this.
There are not clear bright lines, it is a messy spectrum of belief and politics, particularly in the US where we are so individualistic. For example I usually find it easier to work with so called progressive liberals than authoritarian leftists, although this can vary dramatically over a variety of political issues. Sometimes Authoritarian Leftists work best with Progressive liberals, and leave moderate, practical leftists out! So there is no simple formula, except to deal with the actual conditions and act on behalf of the whole working class, rather than a particular group or unique subset of interests, in the struggle against the ruling capitalist class. This looks different in different places to different people, progress and truth is borne out of actual class struggle.
The party is conservative, their constituents are being lied to. They just need to realize that electoral politics will not save us. Hopefully they do this before it's too late.

Hey guys,

Remember when we found out Russia and China were manipulating us into fighting between left and right, and now they’re dividing the left into 2 camps that are supposed to hate each other?

Yeah.

Yeah.

.ml leading the charge on this.
I see a lot of other really suspicious shit around Lemmy. I have a suspicion it's trying to be used like r/the_donald was.
- If anything is being used to stir shit and divide and conquer it's all the noxious anti-communist liberals running around crying about tankies
- Yup. There's stuff that pings my radar as well.
  However, the technical barrier to actually getting on Lemmy forces a minimum level of intelligence. I. E. the pool of useful idiots is way smaller than reddit. Most tankie wank gets called out.
  Doesn't mean that we're not being used for training data. I'm also still percolating on what can be done by just posting slanted articles and stifling disent.
  Lemmy is better but still totally susceptible to manipulation.
Lol. Yeah im sure that it's China and Russians who are causing leftist to not trust liberals. The last 300 years of human history in which liberals gleefully murdered leftists has nothing to do with it.
The left has always been infighting. The two great memes of the left are walls of text and hating other leftists.
But liberals are not leftists. And we’ve disliked you for decades and globally.
I'm not saying that this isn't happening, but at the same time it also seems to get heavily implied in threads like these that the solution is for leftists to just get onboard with two-party neoliberalist capitalism just for this next one election, just this once, we promise.
Calling on the Democratic Party to adopt left-wing policies keeps getting branded "divisive", but calling on Leftists to adopt the center-right is treated like an attempt at unification.
The people calling for party unity don't want any of the political aspects of a united Left, they just want to carry on the same policies they had before but with more people being scared into holding their noses and voting for them.
- It's just that lefties don't seem to want to or know how to build power. It feels very performative. If they actually cared about any of the issues they are so vocal about, I don't know, maybe they would do the groundwork to build a political framework. That's why I applaud people like Zohran or AOC. They are there, doing the work day in and out. But online lefties are just pouting and crying about liberals non stop
- Yeah I’m done arguing with Russian trolls tonight. Good luck in your future endeavors.
KGB handbook: play up the loudest voices on both sides of every social issue, make every tiny issue seem so overblown and saturated with lies and nonsense that average people stay out of it and stop trusting anyone involved.
This leaves people with no activism or outside opinion they can trust so they go along with whatever state media reports because what else is there.
This has worked wonders in other countries, it is working wonders in America. It is going to work in your country next, reader. What are you going to do about it?
Divide and conquer. If the left can't see that then they doom us all. Liberals want freedom and justice and that is NOT being represented by most democrats
- That's a very one-sided take. Yes, leftists can easily fall for the divide and conquer purity tests. To pretend that liberals don't fall for it as they have historically and are currently sabotaging popular & successful leftist candidates is ridiculous.
- If the left can’t see that then they doom us all.
  Why is it the Left's responsibility to toe the Liberal line in the name of unity, but never vice versa?
The post is a jab about American folks who conflate the terms. I wasn't expecting people to take this as seriously as others have!
Although now that you mentioned it, I kinda sense that there could be something going on sometimes, especially on comments looking down on the working class supporting the Republicans, while refusing to acknowledge that they used to vote Democrats. Plenty of people worth their salt would tell anyone that it is because the working class felt abandoned after the outsourcing of jobs without offering alternatives. Unfortunately, a lot on the left, but more so on liberals, don't see this and keep calling the working class as dumb hicks. There are definitely folks who are too far gone and support fascists, but to caricaturise everyone in the demographic while a more plausible explanation is available seems tone deaf. It made me think that there could be an intentional wedge to create in-fighting for such deliberate nosing down.
- The left and liberals are one and the same in America.
  Now I’m sure you’re going to go on some stupid fucking diatribe about how “aCkShuAllY they AREN’T”.
  That’s just Russian fucking propaganda. You’re trying to bisect the left to create infighting in order to prop up fascist interests.
  Begone, troll.

This is all bullshit.

Who fucking cares about these definitions? All y'all have the same damn enemy. Worry about the enemy first. Iron out disagreements over terminology once the fascists are gone.

It's so weird that people spend so much time debating this pointless garbage.

Oh, the problem is much deeper than definitions. One group is socially progressive but economically right. Then, the other group is both progressive on social and economic issues. The economic policies is where the rift is.
Edit: wording
- And the economic right have had all the power for the last god knows how many election cycles... They've been chasing the unicorn moderate that would somehow vote Democrat, which doesn't exist, but in doing so they lose the "left" vote.
  Those "centrists" and "moderates" are conservatives that are disgusted by the GOP, but would never vote for Democrats because they don't agree with their policies. They have no party but the economic right liberals keep trying to attract them... Hopefully now with the change in DNC leadership they'll stop this losing game and actually be what their voters want them to be.
Leftists feel powerless and most are too insecure to go out and actually debate in right-wing spaces, so all they have is bickering internally about other leftists and complaining about liberals to satisfy their need for intellectual debate and drama.
You simply can't have an argument with a conservative, so I get how frustrating it is. But guys, there are other ways you can make progress, but I'm sorry to say it still involves leaving behind your discord polycule.
- Debating in right wing spaces is futile. Those morons don't know the first thing about sourcing material or the truth
It gets trickier when you look at other countries where liberal means "(mostly) unfettered capitalism".

No,

I think we've decided this. The left (rightfully) hates the Democrats.

Yes, but I hate Trump more.
An inch of gained ground is better than a mile of lost ground.
- What gained ground?
Leftists hate democrats so much they helped vote in Trump instead of a very decent woman twice.
The only thing leftists hate more then democrats are other leftists.
- Two things:
  Leftists did vote for Clinton. (You'll recall she got more votes.) That is despite the fact that she was a piece-of-shit candidate that we didn't want, and didn't win the primary.
  Harris was just plain stupidity. You can't look poor people in the eye for three months and tell them you won't change anything and still claim to be decent, much less a legitimate presidential candidate.
  Respectfully, you're being very unreasonable. You don't get to punch the voters in the face and then whine that you broke your hand.
- Leftists aren’t numerous enough to have had much an effect on the election.
  But I will confirm your second statement.

Fuck outta here, liberals shit on the left as much as conservatives do.

american believing they have a left, Center left is the extreme end of the left in america, theres no lefter than that. most of them are on center right.

We have two viable political parties.
Fascist extremists and their enablers. Vote blue no matter who, so maybe the fascists won't come for you.
We have leftists with no one to vote for, shut out of politics by liberal NIMBYs who want good things to happen, they just don't want to see them. More concerned about the value of their house than the value of human life. We have extreme leftists, they're just not allowed to participate. And as of yet, none of them exist in enough numbers in the same place to start throwing Molotovs
I'm sure there's an actual Left in the USA, but it's not covered by any of the big parties.
There is no far left political party but there are plenty of people who are far left. Yes, even by the European standards of the left.

We can be friends until the fascists are out of the government, then we need a social democracy and a ban on far right parties amongst other things.

Liberals are the fascists in their baby form. Once the conditions of the capitalist state deteriorate they transform into fascists quite fast.
- Batshit take

Man, how fucking right wing do you need to be to consider liberalism to be left wing?

American.

Americans sometimes use the two words to mean the same thing. So in that context it's not as confusing but when they're speaking with non-Americans it can cause issues and clearer terminology would be nice

It was kinda done intentionally to muddy the terms to prevent people from thinking of alternatives to the status quo.
Most European countries have an (actually) liberal party; the one in Germany used to have its place between social democrats and conservatives, but has moved way to the right in recent years.

Do not split.

But what is happening in Hong Kong is they come up with a slogan, which is translated as Do Not Split, which is, we know that some people are willing to be confrontational with riot police.
And when they are, that’s going to cost the state in terms of not only resources, but it’s going to cost the state in terms of political capital and support. And we know that there are some people who are not willing to do that. And we are going to abide by the protocol of Do Not Split, which means that we’re not going to criticize them openly, and they’re not going to criticize us openly.
If we’re the pacifists, we’re not going to have them criticize us for being sort of like, I don’t know, limpid or flaccid or not courageous or whatever. And we’re not going to criticize them for being more confrontational. And the thing is that the support is also tacit.

https://sh.itjust.works/post/42969194

Your quote contains exactly zero material applicable to the American left. The disagreement between leftists and liberals is a lot deeper than what tactic they prefer to reach the same goal, and liberals have repeatedly and incessantly attacked and sabotaged the left for their own ends. I mean hell, "and they're not going to criticize us openly"? Have you seen how liberals talk about the left?
- ^ example of splitting
Yes please.

I hate liberals more than conservatives because at least with conservatives they don't go around pretending to be on my side while doing heinous shit. Conservatives just do the heinous shit without the pretense.

This reminds me of that meme (article?) someone posted a couple days ago about some dude who loves metal gives up trying to explain to his family that he's not goth, cuz it's easier to just lets his family ogle at his 'goth phase'.

So... same energy - whether or not "left" and "democrat" are synonymous depends entirely on the person I'm talking to... they either already know, or I don't have the energy to try to teach them.

Agreed. But also, you can just ignore those terms entirely and focus on actual issues..
- 100%
  This is pointless identitarian bullshit that does nothing to stop the fascists currently in charge of the United States.
  It all makes me a bit suspicious.
That's sort of the point of my post. It's trying to poke fun on people not knowing the difference and depending on how the person define the terms. Instead, they called this post a "psyops" and I guess I also inadvertently caused another leftist/liberal (in-)fighting depending how you look at it.

It doesn't matter who you vote for.
Democrats rig their primaries.
far right liberal capitalists or literally figurative nazis.
if you're on the wrong side of us 'foreign policy' both of these groups will exterminate you all the same.
the bipartisan consensus between them is that capitalist exploitation continues
- True, but maybe with small changes in the sociopolitical fabric of the US, eventually, in some decades, US foreign policy can change also. Western European powers are STILL up to no good in Africa and West Asia and they have been at it for hundreds of years... Small steps, right? 😔

You don’t have to be authoritarian to be a leftist.

Of course not. In fact if there is anything I associate with leftist ideologies it's anti-authoritarianism.
- Tell that to ml lol

At this point, I just want the lesser of the two evils.

You know, like leftist vs a fucking lunatic fascist pedo rapist who is burning our country to the ground as if his addled slimy ass is going to take any of it with him when he finally cacks.

Yes, we need things to get cleaned out of the Barney Horror Picutre Show, but if we give up ground about twice more, it'll just be full-on Right vs Right. The next person that goes in has to be left of Biden at the very least or no margins will be made. We couldn't even get we'll stop funding the atrocities in Gaza out of the "left" candidate last time.
Should it have been K? F yeah in comparison, but give us something to drag people out of the house to vote for.
- A big need is inspiring younger people to vote and get them to believe voting is important. That's an extremely tough battle and will only get harder the more establishment people the DNC puts up and the longer we're stuck with a FPTP system. Young people want to hear they'll be cared for just as much as older people. That they'll have safety nets despite not having worked for as long, that they can more easily afford to live a decent life without much sacrifices. They also want to know that their friends and family will be cared for. This means no taking a "state's rights" stance on people's freedoms and protecting those they know abroad, including those in the middle east.
  This can also mean not playing nicely in politics to try and keep appearances. Trump is a dumbass, but a lot of young people liked him cause he went on the very vocal offensive and didn't hold back a single thought. He was comfortable and confident in saying any stupid thought that entered his head. Dems care too much about appearances for them to sink that low which is harming them in this new era of politics and social media.

cyborgs and pagans

I wish these memes came with a political compass clarification of what these terms exactly mean for the author.

I feel like online lefties are all performative and have no genuine strategy for building power. So they resort to the usual purity testing and punching out at liberals non stop. Meanwhile, conservatives are literally ripping people off the streets and putting them in cages. But hey, did you know liberals are actually centrists?

It's like, my dude, learn to build political power first. Then you can move on to putting liberals in concentration camps like you've always been wanting to do. This here is just posturing

I mean, it's a meme not a dissertation, but also breaking away from liberals is a precondition to building any kind of real power. As long as the left is only an appendage of the liberal establishment, it'll never appeal to the broader working class.
- I don't disagree with this sentiment. It's also hard to entertain these types of conversations online because I never know who I'm talking to. Am I interacting with a tankie, an anarchist, or even worst - lemmy's worst nightmare - a soc dem? Each will have a different position and mandate it's own type of discourse. But regardless of what your political alignment, you should want to build power.
  If you're a tankie, you will completely eschew building coalitions with liberals. And there's nothing wrong with that! But then, I don't know, build an independent party and do something instead of bitching 24/7 about liberals.
  If you're a soc dem, you could try to rebuild the democratic party from within. It's already undergone several waves of changes, so whose to say it couldn't happen again? AOC and Mamdani are trying. I support them.
  If you're an anarchist, the same principle applies. You should want to build power. You don't have align all the time with liberals, but maybe you can form coalitions around policies that highlight the goals of anarchism in a way that makes the movement visible to the general public. You know, building power.
  Posting memes 24/7 about liberals is like screaming into the void where all your friends are standing next to you and clapping. Like, ok? What's next?

I dont get it

People here need reminding that every time the Dems lose, they go to the center to find voters. You can't play Mexican standoff by protest-no-voting (or 3rd party) because they have an out: the center voter. And the center voter actually shows up.

It's almost like left and right are bullshit labels, sort of like conservative obviously was to MAGA after Trump was voted in.

I base my labels on the seating arrangements of the revolutionary French parliament from over 200 years ago. What's wrong with that?
I think both sides of the National Assembly would have had you guillotined if you said they're a parliament.
PS: Guillotines didn't exist at that point so this is technically inaccurate.
- I'd certainly guillotine anyone who thought that a 200 year old reference merited relevance and was anything other than proof at how bullshit out of touch the labels are. Then again, people being as ignorant as they were 200 years ago seems on cue.