A bit late
A bit late
"b-but bears are actually dangerous!" Shut the hell up.
403 comments
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I have some extra emotional capacity today so(see edit*) I'll post some wrong think: but can we stop antagonizing populations that feel disenfranchised by society and therefor giving the truly evil fucks out there an easy population to brainwash and feed extra scummy ideologies to?Young nerdy men who feel excluded from society that dont have any strong female figures in their life are barraged by a constant stream of messaging that could easily be interpreted as "(white) men are evil and the source of all problems with society"
By constantly antagonizing them for not being able to navigate the political nuance of those messages, we give an incredibly easy pathway to the more toxic ideologies that the Tates of the world will pull them into to profit off of them, because they are the only figures who will give them praise and a sense of belonging.
Edit: Its a new day now, and I no longer have the energy. If you want to vent, understanding that venting in this manner will bring about little to no positive change, you do you, I will no longer be responding
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yeah this pretty much.
Polarized speech does nothing for anybody. If woman are talking about this bear thing to make a point, i feel like we would be better off actually making sure that people understood that it was about making a point, rather than a literal fucking interpretation of the problem
but no, funny internet points are more important, capitalism ruins everything it fucking touches.
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These kinds of things are great for letting off steam with friends, but absolutely TERRIBLE at getting a point across to people who dont already know said point
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But many do just that, then you focus on the ones that don't, every cycle. Over and over. You choose what to focus on. Not we as a society, literally you. You choose to engage with that negative part of it and continue to. Nobody is forcing you
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I wanted to post something like this but could not write it well. Thanks for posting it.
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Yeah, thats why I posted this. I'm having a good day today, and so I was able to find the words that others who've been affected by the bear meme struggled to find the words to. If I get some flak for it, I have the emotional space to explain my reasoning
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Don't forget the other side, I've seen some of the discussions around this by women turn really TERFy. Both sides of this debate are gateways to the Alt right.
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Tbh the TERF stuff isnt surprising since a lot of these memes have just a hint of Misandry to them, and when it comes to TERFs, they dont see Trans Women as women, and see them as men, so its moreso their ideas on men that are guiding their ideology, than it is about women
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Man are not evil and I don't think anyone is making that statement here, but the problem is that we can't know which men are evil. Of course we should avoid antagonizing them, since, like you said, it often drives young lonely men towards the manosphere, but also men should try actually listening to why most women pick the bear.
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I mean yeah, that was my point. Currently though our messaging is insanely antagonistic and there are a LOT of men without women in their lives who can explain this to them. People dont listen to those antagonizing them, the throw their shields/walls up, and seek those who are friendlier to them, which, in this case would be the manpsphere, posts like this only preach to the choir, and push away the men who need to know why women would choose the bear the most.
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it often drives young lonely men towards the manosphere, but also men should try actually listening to why most women pick the bear.
ok, and as evidenced by the previous thread, there was a lot of nothing being explained actively happening.
Reiterating the metaphorical reasoning as to why someone would do this doesn't explain the underlying reason why people are using a metaphorical device in the first place.
don't tell people that you would rather be with a bear, tell people that you would rather be with a bear, because the entire point of the statement is that it's literally fucking insane. The problem here was the second someone goes "isn't this insane?" instead of people responding with "yes, that's the point, it's supposed to be!" people respond with "and you're part of the problem" yknow, because surely that wouldn't cause problems.
It's not that people are saying something, or aren't saying something, it's that people are trying to make a point using a metaphorical device that they never drop, it's like irony poisoning, except it's just not irony.
TL;DR It's hard to listen to someones reasoning when they never fucking explain it. Granted it did get better eventually, but jesus fucking christ did it take a while.
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I used to actively avoid women out of fear of making them uncomfortable (still do occasionally, when I have a particularly shitty day), I mean like full on 0 eye contact, lotsa distance and god forbid speaking. Being tolled I'm too fucking stupid to understand female issues and tolled that I have it so easy because I can be a literal pig without getting judged did a number on my brain. I mean I get it, women have it much harder, but being completely pushed aside and forced to associate with literal trash, all my efforts made worthless just because women have to put in much more effort, while I only chose to do a bit more. It hurts. When a girl is freaked out and starts running, because I'm taking a similar route to her's (because I just happened to live in the same direction), I understand her reaction, but it doesn't change the fact that it makes me wish I didn't exist, if my fucking existence is a problem in it self. It's shit like this that makes me wish I was at least trans or something, not born a fucking bogeyman that hurts people by breathing the same air as them.
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but the problem is that we can’t know which men are evil.
It's very much possible with these things called emotional intelligence and empathy. Used in combination they allow you to walk in another's shoes for just a split second and see where their mind is.
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can we stop antagonizing populations that feel disenfranchised by society and therefor giving the truly evil fucks out there an easy population to brainwash and feed extra scummy ideologies to?
Young nerdy men who feel excluded from society that dont have any strong female figures in their life are barraged by a constant stream of messaging that could easily be interpreted as “(white) men are evil and the source of all problems with society”
I think it's a two-pronged problem.
Young men are encouraged to be aggressive, thin-skinned, and superficial. They're sold this idea of sex as a reward for climbing to the top of some nebulously defined social hierarchy rather than an expression of intimacy with a romantic partner.
Meanwhile, young women are victims of the Madonna/Whore complex, simultaneously expected to be sexual and virginal, model-esque and down-to-earth, your plaything and your mom. They're this thing men are expected to fight over, but also personally responsible for the drama created by this social expectation.
And so much of this engineered conflict revolves around selling you something. Gym memberships or diet supplements or fashion accessories or self-help classes or luxury status symbols are all supposed to be a thing we can buy into in order to climb the ladder to an ideal romantic life. All to commodify the idea of love.
By constantly antagonizing them for not being able to navigate the political nuance of those messages, we give an incredibly easy pathway to the more toxic ideologies that the Tates of the world will pull them into to profit off of them
Guys like Andrew Tate are ultimately just bullies. And bullying is a tool that one class of people use to force the others to conform and submit. So much of this boils down to Tate inducting new members of his cult of personality by sending older members out to jump them in.
The only real remedy is to shut these guys down. Stand together. Stick up for your friends and neighbors in the face of fascist bullying. Push back.
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This is so extremely well put.
You do help by expressing things so succinctly
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This right here is the reason I still bother to engage people on this topic. The women who honestly believe a bear is less threatening than a random man are a lost cause imo, so my goal is to help men find supportive people and spaces that aren't dangerous idiots like Tate.
You can be a man without being forced to exist in the manufactured redpill/male feminist dichotomy.
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I am a man and I am affected 0% by this meme. This meme was a chance to display some empathy and understand why it might be that the bear analogy strikes a chord with many women.
When I go to the grocery store, do I have to think about being snatched? My privilege affords me the convenience of not worrying about that. Do I need to worry about being sexually assaulted walking home? Statistically, probably not. There are a whole host of problems and horrific fates that befall women disproportionately, and very often at the hands of men.
Why would a woman feel safer with a bear?
The 750,000 black bears of North America kill less than one person per year on the average, while men ages 18-24 are 167 times more likely to kill someone than a black bear.
Most attacks by black bears are defensive reactions to a person who is too close, which is an easy situation to avoid. Injuries from these defensive reactions are usually minor.
https://bear.org/bear-facts/how-dangerous-are-black-bears
Since 1784 there have been 82 fatal human/bear conflicts by wild brown bears in North America. Yellowstone National Park has seen a mere 8 since being established in 1872, which is only one more than the number of people who have died from a falling tree.
https://bearvault.com/bear-attack-statistics/
Seems to me that even I would be safer with a bear than a man. Makes you think, doesn't it?
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That's the thing about memes. They're not really a rational form of discussing a topic, and tend to exploit emotions to boost their spread. But it seems to be more or less the only form of discussing things nowadays. The result is that as a society we no longer solve anything, and only work together to make things worse now.
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good comment regarding the ongoing presentation of this meme. i encourage folks who read this to make posts that welcome young men and encourage them to understand the nuance, rather than judge them a priori for not already getting it.
that said it’s important to note that the origin of this meme was i believe just a
anonymouspoll where women expressed their lived experience and wasn’t meant to be antagonistic at all. bad men were the ones that took offense to what these women felt and made the meme what it is.not saying you don’t know any of this just feel it’s worth being said :) thank you for your nuanced and leveled criticism of the rhetorical value of the trend.
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L M A O white nerdy young men are not the perfect angels you think, I have multiple friends who were sexually assaulted by such people
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This is not antagonizing men. This is important data for men. Do you want to get laid? Understand where women are coming from. Don't do spooky shit on dates.
Listen, I understand. It's bad news, but it is what it is. It's reality. It's like women saying if you never take a shower or bath in your entire life, a relationship is out of the question.
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Downvoted not because it isn't true, but because they aren't automatically mutually exclusive and because it is an unnecessary jab at half of the human species. Why are we paying attention to divisive bullshit instead of focusing on things that actually have the potential to help?
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Because the solution to women getting assaulted is to make men think about their actions. The post wasn't anymore divisive than the average black twitter meme. It was a simple tongue in cheek piece about how women have the impossible task of figuring out if a man is going to be their life partner or their rapist & murderer.
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What will help?
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"I realized men are evil, masculinity is toxic, these are statements of truth and the only ones who deny this shit are cis men themselves." - CheesyCheese1 This thread
☝️ Top comment when i got here. This issue brings out as many misandrists as it does misogynists.
Even my gf who wasn't aware of this meme picked the bear vs a random man when i asked her, so obviously there is a problem. But in reality i don't give a shit if some rando woman would prefer a bear over me in the woods, whatever makes her feel safer i guess. I do care about being tarred with the rape brush though, and this topic is being used to attack all men rather than just the problem ones.
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I support sexual assualt because I think associating all men with sexual assault is divisive? Eat shit and die.
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The thing is, I've seen statements like this before. Except when I heard it, it was being used to justify ignoring women's experiences and feelings in regard to things like sexual harassment and feeling unsafe, since that's "just a feeling" as well. It wasn't okay then, and it's not okay the other way around. The truth is that feelings do matter, on both sides. Everyone should feel safe and welcome in their surroundings. And how much so that is, is reflected in how those people feel.
The outcome of men feeling being respected and women feeling safe are not mutually exclusive. The sad part is that someone who is reading this here is far more likely to be an ally than a foe, yet the people who need to hear the intended message the most will most likely never hear it nor be bothered by it. There's a stick being wedged here that is only meant to divide, and oh my god is it working.
The original post about bears has completely lost all meaning and any semblance of discussion is lost because the metaphor is inflammatory by design - sometimes that's a good thing, to highlight through absurdity. But metaphors are fragile - if it's very likely to be misunderstood or offensive, the message is lost in emotion. Personally I think this metaphor is just highly ineffective at getting the message across, as it has driven people who would stand by the original message to the other side due to the many uncharitable interpretations it presents. And among the crowd of reasonable people are those who confirm those interpretations and muddy the water to make women seem like misandrists, and men like sexual assault deniers. This meme is simply terrible and perhaps we can move on to a better version of it that actually gets the message across well, instead of getting people at each other's throat.
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Honestly I am so goddamn tired of this shit, everytime something like the bear question comes up it blatantly tilted in one side or the others favor and dissent is crushed in both sets of spaces and no one learns anything.
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Clearly the meme is highly effective.
It was highly contagious, that is, it spread widely. But so was the whole "would you still love me if I were a worm" thing and it was "effective" for the same reason: Gals thought "Oh I want a 'yes' to that answer that'd be so emotionally satisfying" and guys thought "WTF why would I want a worm if there's something more behind it why can't my SO speak plain English": It spread by exploiting the emotional kick gals get out of tripping over guys for having a particular default interpretation. No, it is not a "wrong" interpretation to think of the question as "rather with a bear or a man like me". If you don't want men to interpret the question like that then pose it differently. Simple as that. But then it wouldn't be as inflammatory and with that not as contagious.
Each and every time one of these things comes around one of two things happens for the average guy: We a) fall right into a trap and then get accused of being insensitive or b) we recognise the trap, lift our hands, walk back slowly, then faster, then even faster, until making a go at the 10km parcour world record. Because yes that kind of shit is a giant red flag.
It's like those people who are proud of being "brutally honest" but in reality what they care about is not the truth, but the brutality, just from the other side of the gender distribution.
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Yes, feelings matter. Beautifully put.
But nobody is purposefully "wedging a stick" between allies and enemies. No secret society is plotting to prevent you from sending any message of safety. The metaphor is not designed, or created for a specific purpose. You have to realise how crazy and for real dangerous this way of agumenting is.
You aim for a good purpose, then use basically the debate version of biological weapons of mass destruction to make your point.
Just for any small argument about a small thing between sexes, like always it's fun for people to discuss, and some get mad, but
For you to use the narrative of psy ops, learned no doubt subconsciously, to speak like there is a secret cabal that want you to be fearful, we must unite against some kind of expression just because they are coming for you.. No
If anyone takes it too far it's talk like that, and you unironically talk about how reasonable people are hard to come by
Gee
Wonder why that is brother
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You're right, feelings do matter, and this post did not dispute that. It's just that safety matters more.
It saddens me that the default interpretation of this is accusatory and requiring of defense. Not to personally blame you, this is very common and clearly a systemic reaction, but I don't know enough psychology/politics/sociology to understand why, just enough to know it's bad.
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I'm a woman (a trans one if that matters to you) and have experienced sexual assault and domestic violence from both men and women.
I know the point that people are trying to make with the whole bear thing.
But I think the friction comes from women talk about this as a theoretical to make a point, where men are thinking more literally.
And I do belive that no one in there right mind, if actually given this option in real life, would pick a bear (unless maybe it was definitely one of the more harmless species).
Each and every one of us, even those of us that have survived SA, have had countless uneventful interactions with men you don't know. Even when it's just one on one. And its mostly normal biases that makes us remember the shitty ones more. And something a lot of people forget is that the vast majority of SA victims already know their assailant, so the idea of a rando assaulting you is even less likely. So yes I would much rather be in the woods with a man, than a wild fucking animal. And if you're a reasonable person, then you would too.
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Honestly I think it depends more on the guy than the bear. Any time you're alone in the woods (at least in the US) it's safe to assume you're with a bear, that's where they live. Most bears keep to themselves though.
People tend to be less low-key, and less predictable. To me it seems more likely that a random guy could follow you around, take your stuff, or generally make life more difficult. There's also a higher chance for a guy to assist you and make things easier, but I can understand how the potential risk could outweigh the potential benefits.
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Nono you're not allowed to judge the man individually. You're required to judge before you see both the man and bear so that we get a properly over-essentialised judgement how else are we going to propagate in- / out-group divisions.
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it makes me happy that this is near the top of this thread, but this comment is also only 15 minutes old, so i'm not sure how far down the pipeline of this post, it'll track.
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As a trans woman who has also been sexually assaulted, it has more to do for me with what danger is more real to me. I've experienced zero bear attacks. Nobody I know has experienced a bear attack. Why would I fear one? Of course, consciously yeah, I know a bear is dangerous, but I have no real world experience to back that assumption up.
Men though? Yeah, I've been sexually assaulted by men. I've been physically assaulted by men. I've had family and friends who've been physically and sexually assaulted by men. That danger is real to me. I know that if a man I don't know is nearby me he could do those things to me, and I have the real world experience to prove that assumption correct (the assumption that they could, not the assumption that they would.)
Therefore, of course I'm more scared of the man than the bear. And of course I'd choose the bear over the man. I don't care if it's the wrong choice, I'll take my chances to not have to relive that trauma, even if it means risking my life. Not like I'll have time to regret that decision if the bear decides to kill me. Probably. And most women I know when asked expressed the same sentiment in different words. We're more scared of men than bears, but that doesn't mean we literally think men are more dangerous than bears.
Is it the logical choice to pick the bear? Probably not, but humans are not logical creatures. I'd rather make the wrong choice than the scary choice.-
I’d rather make the wrong choice than the scary choice.
Unrelated to the topic, but this mindset is exactly why far-right movements are getting so strong right now.
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I've never been shot or held at gunpoint, but I have have the shit kicked out of me. But still if given the option to face a person with a gun and a person with the bare hands. I don't think I'm going to pick the the guy with a gun.
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(This is me being glib) It depends on what kind of bear we're talking about. Blackbear be big noisy and confusing, grizzly play dead, big hairy gay guy like best case scenario.
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Most bears would just walk away from you when you make a loud noise. Men would approach you. So even I as a man, would pick a bear
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How many female teachers have been caught fucking their barely pubescent students this year alone so far?
It isn't a men-women problem. People just suck.
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dsfgasfsaf
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Yes, but divided people == profit?
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True.
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Do we need to start throwing out the stats for how many rapist are men compared to women?
Spoiler alert, most rapist are men and it's not even close.
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Yeah, those are very helpful, minority victims don't deserve help as we all know.
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Do we need to start throwing out the stats for how many rapist are men compared to women?
Sure, just as long as you define rape in such a way that female-on-male rape actually counts as rape, which it doesn't in the vast majority of "rape statistics" that get put out. Quote http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers :
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011). In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
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I don't disagree that both men and women do heinous things, but women
don'talmost never physically attack or kill a man when he shuns her advances, but men absolutely attack women every day for shunning a man's advances, and sometimes women get straight up murdered for it.#NotAllMen, but enough men that many women choose the bear.
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This isn't the 1950s, Scooter. Women aren't viewed as fragile incapable little things anymore because they never really were.
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men absolutely attack women every day for shunning a man’s advances
This is a completely weightless statement, considering that it's true if as few as 365 men a year do this, out of ~4,000,000,000. In other words, 0.000009125%.
Pretty low bar for shitting on half the world, no?
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Would you rather be in the wood with a bear rather than a woman because you fear she could rape you? No? Then what the fuck are you even talking about?
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I'm a woman and the same way that women feel about men in this whole meme thing, is the exact same way I feel about women...
I don't trust women within a hairs inch of my life and I would rather be with a bear than a Woman but I bet you I'll get super downvoted for this opinion.
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My wife shares the same opinion. It’s not something she can discuss in her social circles, but she feels like she’s been backstabbed in more awful ways by her fellow women.
When she gets in that pattern, I try to remind her that people tend to suck and you have to be choosy regardless of gender.
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I've never been downvoted anywhere for expressing that opinion. Lemmy especially there's a huge disparity where saying you'd rather be with a bear than a man is unacceptable, but saying you'd rather be with a bear than a woman? A-okay. Source? I've said both. Only one was I not attacked for. Guess which?
Seriously, I've expressed my trauma regarding men countless times and every time been attacked for it. I've expressed my trauma at the hands of women and not a single downvote or attack or disparaging remark any time. Lemmy has a very clear bias.
I wouldn't have a single problem with men getting upset about this bear thing if they got equally upset when somebody says something similar or worse about women, but they don't.-
It's because nobody wants to talk about trauma at the hands of women.. everybody goes extremely, extremely quiet when the topic of the capable violence of women enters the room. I have a personal feeling, as a woman, that if we talk about all of the tools and tricks and things that women do to manipulate and abuse, less women will get away with it, and women don't want that, so they stay silent in order to enable basically a fucking gang, operating with impunity, in a way as a woman, I kind of feel held hostage at the sleepover if you know what I mean..
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With a bear, really ?
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This whole thing is bait.
Anyone engaging on any side of the debate are fools. Any topic antagonizing half the population will somehow stir up some noise.
It's like saying all women are bad at sport because they don't train hard enough. It's ignorant and serves only the purpose of creating a divide in the population.
Stop engaging in the divide.
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I like this logical approach.
Also: eat the rich.
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So if men are statistically safer than bears and women's safety is most important, then you agree "bear" is the incorrect choice?
I'm just trying to figure out all these incoherent memes.
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dsfgasfsaf
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You're just discarding every opinion as "toxic masculinity" which is actually worse than engaging in logical discourse.
I'll do everything in my power to empower women and make them feel safe. This thought experiment has unfortunately been detrimental and used to attack men.
"It's not you" - yes, and nothing I said made it about me at all. See how fast you went on the offense on a completely neutral comment? You should listen to your own advice and listen the points being made equally as much as you're lobbying others to do.
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i am not like that
Congrats, you pass the bare minimum for human decency, dudes. Accept that part and you won't spend time having to 'defend' yourself.
I'm not like that, so I don't need to worry about it, type of thinking
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I read some of these, more to get insight into how other people think, but often I come to the conclusion that there is very little I can do to help and that people who behave that way aren't people I want to help. My ego is just fine, thanks, but blind hostility isn't something I welcome into my life.
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Here's the thing...if you get upset that a random woman that you don't know would take the hyperbolic position that they would rather be in the same room as a bear than with you, you're likely the exact type of man that these memes are talking about. They are meant to expose fragile egos that don't understand how intimidating they are to women. They know how dangerous a bear is. They don't know how dangerous you are. That's the point...
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Here's the thing...if you get upset that a random woman that you don't know would take the hyperbolic position that they would rather be in the same room as a bear than with you, you're likely the exact type of man that these memes are talking about.
What the heck? Expressing resentment at the implication that you are more threatening than a bear based solely on gender is evidence that you are, in fact, more threatening than a bear? How does that follow? You don't need to have a fragile ego to recognize the unfairness of it.
They know how dangerous a bear is.
If they would rather be alone with a bear than a random stranger of any gender I'm going to say they don't.
The original post was a bad-faith engagement farm that became much more popular than it ever should have been. It ended up bringing up a bit of good discussion and a lot of insane takes.
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Do you have those stats? I would love to actually see a comparison, instead of a slap-fight
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Very few people someone gets near enough to be grabbed by want to rape them. Nearly every bear someone gets near enough to be grabbed by wants to kill them. A large number of women feel it is better to be killed by a bear than live with their irrational fear that every man they get near shall rape them. The fear not being rational is irrelevant as the fear is based upon a more than likely chance, approx. 25% is reported, that at some point the fear was justified and not irrational. However those numbers are screwy as folks that get raped are more likely to get raped again.
I'd give percentage chances of each occurring, (the National Park Service estimates the odds of being attacked by a bear are about one in 2.1 million.), but the media seems to only report percentage of gender raped not chance of rape.
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dsfgasfsaf
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You're asking for statistics in bad faith of the argument. Seems like you're the one slap-fighting here - if you wanted to actually engage in logical discourse, you'd have presented statistics yourself, which you have not.
There's obviously no statistics on the rate of how many bear-human and male-female interactions happen. One rarely happens, the other happens billions of times per day. We can prove that bears are more aggressive and dangerous than humans though.
In one black bear study 88% of fatal attacks were a result of the bear being the aggressor. Note that black bears are known to be timid of humans, and notoriously not aggressive.
- https://sapl.ucalgary.ca/evds_info/content/black-bears
- https://bear.org/bear-facts/how-dangerous-are-black-bears
So, statistically even the more timid bear species are wildly more aggressive to humans than humans to bears. Unless you have data that proves that men are more aggressive to women than bears are to humans, this is the closest we get to proving men are statistically safer than bears.
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From your last paragraph, that's what I was discussing with my spouse. She has been harassed/assaulted. All the women she knows have been as well. Hell my mom was as well. She was telling me about how men started to look at her when she was 12. I cannot put myself in her shoes, but because it's so wide spread it's a no brainer to me that women will choose the bear, and I don't blame them. I hate that there is a hesitation, and I hate that you, and all the women I know went through shit like that.
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And bears will most likely leave you alone if you leave them alone.
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Im a little shocked at the general sentiment in this thread, I'm not a woman but most of my friends are afab and just hearing stories about how men will act normal until they're in an isolated situation like the scenario describes makes it a no-brainer why so many people pick bear
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There are some issues & experiences that women go through that men will just simply never "get", and that's fine. But invalidating the answers & experiences from women is why I believe there are no longer many women participating in conversations on Lemmy anymore.
I mean.. looking at all this, why would they want to?
Is it controversial to say that I'd rather converse with a bear? Or do you suppose folks get upset about it?
Maybe, just maybe, folks who do not understand it should listen to what women have to say about it? But many are thinking about it completely removed from the contextual experiences of women. It's.. awful.
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I realized this a long time ago when I made a simple complaint that I thought women's issues were downplayed a lot here, and in response I was downvoted, ridiculed, people demanded sources for my claims then claimed my sources were invalid for whatever reason they could pull out of their ass, and one person even, and trigger warning on this, told me I should die giving birth to a rapists baby.
I've even picked up a downvote stalker during the course of this whole bear thing. Same time every day somebody goes through and downvotes every single new thing on my profile.So yeah, Lemmy's never been a great place for women. I only continue to participate because I'm disabled and have so few connections to the outside world that I'll take anything now.
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- Suicidal person never eaten alive by a bear.
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You read the comment but were not listening. Try again. Disapointing.
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If you don’t get why a lot of women pick the bear, shut the fuck up and listen to why.
ok so im spitballing a little bit here, since this is a cultural divide. Perhaps instead of trying to "empathize, or sympathize" with women, it would be more beneficial for both parties to be capable of meeting on a "level playing field", where experience isn't a factor, because the fundamental problem with experience is that nobody cares until they have it themselves. You ever watch a video of someone who is a master at their craft doing something and going "wow, that must be hard" but then have that subconscious thought of "i could totally do this if i wanted to" which you probably could, but you're almost certainly going to underestimate the amount of effort required. As is a pretty typical for a human.
you have to remember that you exist inside a small bubble, specifically a small bubble made of three inch thick plate steel, like it's the pressure hull of a submarine. You need to come outside of that bubble in order to be able to interact with others. Which in this case, probably means explicitly identifying that the very real fear that you have is completely insane/unfounded, and shouldn't exist. And then it would probably be beneficial to cover why. Because the why is the underlying problem. Nobody cares about the problem at hand, they only care about the solution that fixes it.
The only thing that normal people with an outside perspective, and the inability to have the experiences listed (i.e. men in this case) are going to see is (to use an example from my life) is that i don't like interacting with people, as I'm dysfunctional (for no particular reason, i just don't like people) and as a result, when i have to interact with people, it's often very weird and uncomfortable. But instead of someone else seeing me as a person who doesn't like social norms and rules and just doesn't follow them, they see someone who is quite literally a dysfunctional human being, who cannot do the one job that they are supposed to be able to do.
The difference here is that i am acutely aware of this fact, and often like to abuse it, because it makes other people uncomfortable, and i think being uncomfortable is a healthy thing. Social rules? Yeah turns out you can just not follow them, nobody cares. You wash your hair regularly? Stop doing it, see how many people actually care, which if they do care, you don't have to care about them either. As long as you aren't being an actual asshole people simply do not have the time of day to think about it. Most people don't even understand this, because they don't even understand the concept of social rules. Social rules are how you interact, not a way to interact, for most people.
if you don't understand the spiel i've given just prior, it's the same exact reason people don't understand you. And if you understand it, than good on you, it's the reason you think that this is going to understood by everybody. It's important to remember that everybody is not capable of understanding everything, nor are they capable of experiencing everything. It's really difficult to communicate across that gap effectively, but once you can, it works really fucking well. (the underlying problem here is the same reason that racism continued to exist for so long, and does to this day in smaller capacity. It's the same reason people were scared about gay marriage, and it's the same reason people are scared of trans people now. These people don't know how to understand these things, so they just don't. That's where bigotry comes from.)
Anyway, i only left this comment after seeing how much of an apparent cultural misunderstanding there seems to be around this. I know i certainly didn't understand it initially. I could see the reasoning behind it, but that doesn't mean i understood it properly, to me it was just people yelling about nonsensical shit in lieu of making a good point, and it seems like that was almost what was happening, but that's besides the point now. I see no other reason for this to be so hotly debated otherwise.
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Stop antagonizing all men. There is a low probability that random men will sa you, there is very high probability that bear will eat you alive while you experience both pain and violence role-playing a KFC meal
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It is fucking atrocious that you attacked a person sharing their experiences with “stop antagonizing all men.”
Right there she was expressing how every time she speaks up she gets immediately shut down, and there you were to do it again. This is me calling you out for it. Shame.
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I see OP noticed how much traction and drama this post stirred up last week so they decided to try it for themselves.
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It's so tiring seeing the men coming in and deliberately misunderstanding what's being discussed. They will do literally anything, appear dumb as rocks, to not recognize rape culture and admit potentially any fault or responsibility towards it's continued existence. They take everything personally instead of being able to see that societal problems there are also responsible for helping to fix.
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Are we also going to tolerate the same with Islam and terrorism? POC and safety because "crime statistics"? If those are not acceptable because it's not anyone's individual responsibility for others in an involuntarily assigned group, why is this ok?
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Same arguments, still wrong. Fuck off misogynist.
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see my comment here if you would
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Not all men /s
Your comment really hits the nail on the head, esp the dumb as rocks part. I think part of that stupidity is legitimately not being able to see past our own privilege.
E: baha, downvote me harder, you nematodes
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Yeah. I give some benefit of the doubt but after seeing plenty of varied and good explanations I'm tired of holding everyone's hand who's had plenty of chances to learn. After a while it just becomes men not listening and believing women which is too typical.
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Here's the problem with that statement. I agree that there is a problem with men committing rape. However, I (along with most men) have never raped anybody. Furthermore I have not done anything to perpetuate the actions of the minority of men who do commit sex crimes. Therefore I do NOT take responsibility or admit fault for their actions. Saying that men as a whole are the problem is offensive and unhelpful. It's how random peaceful Muslims feel when conservatives tell them they need to take responsibility for the actions of terrorists and take action to stop terrorists "in their community" like all Muslims are in one big group chat. I would straight up give my life to prevent a woman I don't know from being raped. Idk what more you want from me.
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Your tiny bit of discomfort is clearly more important than rape culture that, yes you too, are contributing to. This is contribution to ignoring rape culture.
Your willful ignorance and not listening to women is enabling rapists.
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the difference is that the patriarchy exists and favors men. there is no systematic structure that puts Muslims above others, at the expense of others, in a way that is parallel to what the patriarchy does.
i get what you are saying, and maybe not too long ago i was professing quite similar feelings, but i encourage you to self interrogate how big of a difference that is. truly hope this is helpful.
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It isn't always deliberate, I can guarantee you that.
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this comment section has been so enlightening about the makeup of this side of the fediverse. and all i can say is i am so sorry. i always guessed it was a male-heavy makeup but i never thought it would precipitate this badly.
this community usually veers leftist and toward respecting human dignity, but it appears as soon as women express the pain and fear that is forced upon them for merely existing all of that is lost and their comments are getting 30/70 downvoted, even in conversations where folks have already acknowledged the caveat of the importance of non-alienating.
it’s clear there is a lot of work to be done when one of the most progressive communities i have ever followed is so packed with malinformed spite as soon as the subject comes to humans asking for the basic privilege of safety.
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It's this sexist statement still being made? Cool, cool, cool... I mean it's not actually, but here we are with this crap still being said.
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Plus like a lot of semi recent sexist analogies it's a rephrasing of an older racist one with the same logic but proponents are like "that's different for reasons", 'rather a black man or a dangerous animal' is pretty common in racist circles, just like the 'you have a bowl of M&Ms, 1/10 are poison. That's what it's like to deal with men' analogy from a few years back grew from the 'you have a package of Skittles. 1/10 are poison. That's what it's like to deal with Muslims' analogy
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Stop noticing things.
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So there mere presence of a man implies a lack of safety? It may be your feelings but it is also major misandry.
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but it is also major misandry.
STILL DON'T GET IT HUH?
Let's reduce it down to the simplest way it can be put: how many bears rape women?
Get it now?
Misogynists can't accept it I guess.
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How many men maul women to death?
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bear-b-c-squamish-attack-1.7201905
https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/07/us/grizzly-bear-attack-yellowstone-idaho-killed/index.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57763443#
Implying all men are rapists is misandry, period.
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Women are rapists as well.
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Lived experience shapes our reality. It's an absurdist analogy that paints the picture of women feeling unsafe around men they don't know due to their lived experience. It's not misandry, it's caution, anxiety, fear, and uncertainty. The outrage at such meme is pretty much indicative of the issue at hand. Men tend not to feel unsafe around women they don't know whereas the flipped scenario is the opposite. That says something about society, not women.
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I don’t think it’s lived experience for many. Much of it is fear impressed by others. And I’ve certainly felt fear at being alone with the wrong woman, or a child. One false accusation and my life is over. I actively avoid being alone with women and children. But that doesn’t mean I’m picking bears over people.
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Feel however you want, but don't drag me into the what other people have done. I don't deserve the prejudice, and I'd rather just not interact with you.
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Who's dragging you into stuff? No one has said that all men are worse than bears.
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You are, right now. This post was, as well as every other post. I'm not just going to sit here and bite my tongue. The entire thing was designed as an attack to get a rise out of people, and here it is. Thanks to whoever made this post.
What kind of person would I be if I weren't willing to defend myself?
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Not sure what else this meme is doing other than actively creating a bigger divide between the genders...
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Maybe a divide for you, my SO says she'd pick the bear if it wasn't me. And I don't blame her.
Instead of arguing the merits of this debate, maybe its worth analyzing your own merits. Men (individually but amongst their peers) should be ashamed that women typically seem to want to pick a bear over themselves, instead of falling further into the rut that pushes everyone - not just women - away from their social circles and friend.
Someone tells you they'd rather be getting mauled by a bear? Take the hint. The divide exists within your head, make friends, be kind, and you'll find happiness
Edited for individuals to contextualize on their peers instead of generically
Edit edit, I mean go ahead, be reactionary
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Men should be ashamed that women typically seem to want to pick a bear over themselves
Shame is an individual thing. Men, plural, is a whole bunch of people. Why should I be ashamed for the actions of people that aren't me?
...and just to be clear here: I'm not even arguing that we shouldn't battle this one out between the genders. But collective punishment is against the Geneva convention and I really don't like to stay quiet when people commit war crimes.
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Excuse me?!
The fuck should I be ashamed for?
Why am I responsible for the actions of other men?
Go have your fucking guilt trip if you want to but don't include me.
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It's nice to change the subjects of racist phrases to get a free dunk on a lot of people that are cool to hate now.
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Who said that?
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How are so many people angry at a simple fucking hypothetical?
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Telling on themselves
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they genuinely don't understand; they think: ah, but the bear is a much more fearsome predator than I am, the woman would choose me any day!
Nah man, the bear's never, ever, ever going to rape the woman. Woman will roll the dice with their lives, but no one wants to be kidnapped and raped to death - an actual fear women in this day and age have - and the bear will never ever 100% will not rape a woman.
clear cut logic to me, I don't fault women one bit.
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Fragile ass masculinity
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I don't even get it. Like if I'm hiking in the woods alone, it's because I want to be alone. Please pick the bear, I don't want company.
At least when I get to the bear, he'll be sated and less likely to eat me.
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Every single time someone makes a post about feminism, it gets flooded with comments that show why we need feminism.
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Here's my hot take on all this:
Fellas, it's not that your feelings don't matter, everyone's feelings matter, it's that your feelings don't matter more than the safety of others.
You're getting mad at the wrong shit here. You're mad at the women for not wanting to be stuck in a forest with a random dude, when in all actual fact, that decision was borne from a plethora of experience with random dudes, most of that experience being negative.
Almost all of that negativity is because there's to fucking many creepy ass dudes making us all look bad. To be blunt, I have high hopes, and expectations from my fellow man; especially when it comes to respecting women. Yes, there's a nontrivial number of crazy bitches out there, in the same breath, there's a lot of crazy dudes too. They're making us all look bad. Be mad at them.
The women are only making the best decision for their own health and safety, based on their experience. Be the change you want to see in the world, my brothers. Be that change.
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Well said.
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Can we fix this comment for the whole lemmy instance to read?
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This topic keeps coming up because people keep talking past each other. There is a real, measured, evidence backed problem. The victims are saying “I feel this way, and it causes me to behave this way” and those who are neither victims nor perpetrators are upset about the way they are choosing to express that in a general sense. Now this meme itself is not more helpful than the bear, it didn’t give any new information. But it’s a good expression of that general frustration when no one listens. At least on Lemmy, there is a certain defensive response rather than an understanding empathetic one on this topic. This meme in particular seems harsh, but it’s driven by decades of talking about this, or not being able to talk about this, because the response is always so negative. Everything from “why did you dress that way” to “you should have know before you married them” to “not only women” (yes but that’s the topic at hand so). I would hope that some can come to understand this sentiment. I hope that this community improves.
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I don't think that's where we all came out of
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I'm just going to say it. Any arguments of "what about..." Are effectively pointless banter.
It's not adding anything to the discussion, and bluntly it's actively trying to distract people from the point, and change the discussion into something different.
Fuck off with that shit.
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This post, and most of the other bear ones, are in normie forums full of people not familiar with feminist discourse. The reason for that? It's funny, cathartic, shocking, and a little inflammatory. And that's fine, it's meant to be. It gives it reach and allows people to learn and others to teach. The problem is that when men do find this to be shocking and inflammatory, they need to channel that emotion somewhere, and antagonistic/angry internet discourse is not the correct way respond to that.
There was a popular post the other day of "If you don't understand why women pick the bear, you are the bear", that directly antagonises the exact people who need to hear about why women choose the bear, and those people don't need to be antagonised, they need a little empathy and non-confrontational discussion to get there.
When I talked to them calmly, and acknowledged the way they feel, validated their emotions, then explained the topic to them, every single one I talked to accepted the core point and came out better for it. Take that angry energy, educate, and direct that energy in the right direction.
It's not that men's feelings should trump women's safety. It's that you need to think about why people are disagreeing so you can effectively talk to them
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yea but like at the same time annoying a bunch of butthurt lonely guys really isnt solving the problem and rather pushes them towards the manosphere which is where the problems start to grow
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Women are announcing that they much rather spend their time in the company of men from the homosexual "bear" subculture. Apparently because they are better at camping than supposed "normal" men.
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can we just drop this stupid joke that many missed the point of? its getting real annoying real fast. people suck, get over yourselves.
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it’s definitely not a rhetorically/optically great in-joke for exactly the reasons you state.
that said i would take the man vs bear meme 1 million times over the KAM jokes we had last decade tho, so it is getting better.
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Yes, this is the correct take.
The bear meme is meant to make men uncomfortable and surprised by how they are seen as a generalization among women. It isn't meant to be anti-men or anything, it's just meant to show the lived experience of women to men in a hypothetical absurdity.
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I get that, and you're right. But a lot of people are taking the meme too far, and taking something that was originally good, and making it it anti-men. Men's feelings actually matter, and we as society need to start actually thinking about them, rather than just telling them to man up all the time.
I've talked to a whole bunch of anti-bear men, and all of them accept the point when told in an empathetic way that acknowledges their right to feel the way they do. You can take that feeling and channel it as a force for good, rather them antagonising them and pushing them further away
(Not saying you in particular are doing this)
Edit: Please respond instead of downvoting. I'm failing to see the problem with identifying that there's a enough antagonistic commenters that maybe it's pushing people in the wrong direction. And we now require an over-correction of empathy to undo that damage.
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The cure to sexism is definitely more sexism.
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What part is sexist? There can be no equality if uncomfortable realities are brushed aside, illuminating the very real lived experience that women are constantly wary of the average man allows us to confront said issue. Telling women that they are "wrong" and just need to feel different about the issue just perpetuates this distrust.
Listen to women.
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Incels are so butthurt about this one. Grow up
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love how this post is turning this fascinating thought experiment (which a lot of people don't seem to understand very well)
and turning it into correlation, not even causation of correlation, this is literally just taking two random things and smashing them together lmao.
there are so many variables to how this can be interpreted that make this a very difficult to comprehend statement.
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I don't know. Seems kind of straightforward to me. Women's safety is more important than men's feelings. I agree with that statement. Do you not agree with that statement?
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based on what though? Womens safety is more important than men feeling that raping women is bad? I think that might not check out.
Womens safety from being bombed by russia (nuclear warhead btw) while men have feelings about that one argument they had last week?
I mean, i like reductionism as much as the next guy, but you gotta give me something palatable, not just word salad.
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But what if I'm a big huge baby about it, what then?
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So, we should generalize entire groups of people to teach them a lesson. No matter their feelings or the fact that the majority of people in said group are just living their lives. A bunch of bad apples should make and entire group socially responsible.
Got it. 👍
Yes there are too many men who think they live in the 50s and can do whatever they want to woman. If you say ALL men are like that, you're invalidating the effort of most men trying to be better human beings while being assholes.
If you can't understand that. You are not looking to make things better, just to throw hate around.
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So, people's safety is more important than people's feelings, basically.
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You're being reductionist to the point of losing the actual point but, if we assume you're doing so in good faith, then yes. Without a doubt yes. Given a choice between a person's feelings being hurt and a person getting physically hurt, the latter should win, especially when the only reason those feelings are hurt is because the person refuses to try to understand why or is so fragile they're unable to handle criticism.
Most men I know aren't made uncomfortable by this and, so far, the only ones who do have their feelings hurt are absolutely the ones women should choose the bear over. Not because they're bad people, but because an important point is being made and instead of trying to understand, they dig their heels in, refuse to understand, and now gripe about being victims because people are talking about things they don't want to think about.
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I'm being far more universal than the obsession this narrow cisgender thread promotes. It was an issue with the pandemic. It is an issue with abortion rights. It is an issue with elections. It is an issue with so many things, that you would have to want to be willfully ignorant to focus on any single one. Your problem is humanity and their obsession to sacrifice people's safety for their feelings. People who put their feelings over your safety are the ones who should be avoided. No need to bring pandas into it.
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Nono, only female safety and men feelings! Read the sign! /s
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Especially when alone in the woods. I feel like many people are glossing over this important part of the question.
It's not just any random guy you meet at starbucks, it's a random guy out in the middle of the woods.
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What is this referring to? I think I'm OOTL
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I think I've seen this sign before.. If I'm not mistaken it's basically in every single strip club.
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It's a hell of a thing to realize the one time women have the rights they should have is when they are expressly considered "the merchandise".
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Well, obviously surviving is a bigger deal than one feeling...but, in some cases, having a feeling can lead to surviving something or succumbing to something.
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I'm out of the loop on the bear situation, what happened?
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Something about would you feel safer being stalked by a creepy dude or being stalked by a bear in the woods. Both could equally kill you, just one is more likely than the other to actually kill you.
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Men's feeling are more important than women's safety and men's feelings are less important than women's safety?
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The reverse of what?
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Wrong post, sorry.
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403 comments
People's safety is more important than people's feelings.
Indeed. It strikes me as pointlessly gendered. All people, safety is more important than feelings.
The whole thing was meant to be rage bait.
you know what else is pointlessly gendered? the patriarchyfeminist messaging has to be gendered because the patriarchy is a gender issue.
that said, feminism is for everybody. liberating women from oppressive structures by nature does the same for men.
If this weren't gendered I'm not sure I would connect that this was posted as result of people's reaction to the bears vs men thing.
That gives me feelings of "All lives matter" which minimized the issues of black people. Can you explain why this is different?
It's not, this tread is filled with Incels.
Except one has built in meaning and the other is a simple meme made by one person with an oversimplified idea used likely to stir up people considering all the discussions happening about bears or whatever.
BLM, no sarcasm.
Are you really all lives mattering this post rn? God damn dude. I hope every person in your life belittles every problem you personally have by telling you that tons of people have that problem.
BLM, no sarcasm.
And all lives matter, right? How else can we commandeer this conversation?
BLM, no sarcasm.
dsfgasfsaf
all lives matter amirite /s
BLM, no sarcasm.
this statement is funny to me, because linguistically, safety is a relatively "felt" concept. We "feel" exposed in a massive open field, and we "feel" safe inside of a building, because we are no longer exposed in a massive wide open field.
In some aspects, physical safety is a thing, but given the context of this thread here, i think it's probably appropriate to say that it's actually the feeling of safety here, that matters more than anything. And as a result, this makes the statement a non starter.
Because to some degree, that feeling of safety, is based on well... Feelings, and if feelings are somehow less important than the safety that those feelings are capable of deriving, than how are you supposed to experience safety?
Physical safety or psychological safety?