Cause and Effect

I'm so glad that people finally start to grasp, how bad excessive specialisation really is.

society is healing

Your garden and kitchen = biochemistry and biology. Home improvement, crafting and anything to do with the trades = physics. Household cleaners, gas, automotive chemicals and plastics = chemistry + healthcare = more organic chemistry and biology. Just dealing with everyday life is science.

Look I think one of the fundamental problems here is we have a cultural divide between people with thousand dollar degrees and everyday people. When someone says "I'm not going to be a scientist" they're probably thinking "I can't afford to pay thousands of dollars to pay for a degree" whilst actual scientists are wondering "why don't people pursue this subject more?" Money. Pure and simple. Real science = cooking, building something, worrying about that scum in your sink, trying to figure out the best cleaner that won't set off an allergic reaction, and yes looking into the side effects of vaccines and assorted drugs. You want people to think scientifically then call them scientists. Don't create an economic barrier for those who want to pursue knowledge. And don't treat science like it only happens in labs. It's an every day process. Science = the study of nature and everybody can do that every day. You don't need an expensive degree to do that. So being a "scientist" shouldn't be limited to those in white coats, getting grants and have a dozen plaques on their wall that cost a couple thousand dollars to buy.

Yeah, we're not talking about people with expensive degrees. The earth is not flat, and mcgyver is not an elitist. These things should be obvious with a high school level of education.

When I was a senior in high school, I needed one more science credit for graduation, so I took Human Anatomy. It was taught by a young hippie (it was the 70s), who also taught the exact same course at the local community college.

It was a great class, with lots of cool labs, experiments, and dissections. We had to memorize every bone, and every muscle. It was one of the hardest classes I've ever taken, but also the most fun.

That class was filled with future doctors and nurses, so none of them were whining about how they'd never use this stuff. But I wasn't on a medical track (I was a music history major), and I could have probably said that (I didn't), but I have used the knowledge I gained in that class literally every single day of my life, decades later. Easily one of the best classes I took in my entire life.

We need to split the US up into two parts so we can do A/B testing.

As others have said, the problem of vaccines isn't that they don't work. The problem of vaccines is that they work too well. They have completely eliminated the diseases that motivated their development, so people can't imagine a world where these vaccines don't exist anymore.

We need to split the US up into two parts. One gets vaccines, the other one does not. Wait 30 years. Then the people will see the effects and then the people will understand why we should have vaccines. If the people don't see the alternative scenario, they can't see the difference that vaccines make. We need to make these differences more visual.

I mean your premise seems to be that various diseases will reemerge and that will scare people into getting vaccines. But what if they end up healthier and so adapt in different ways? Better sanitation, immune boosters, improved forms of treatment, etc. What if the medical culture takes a totally different route because you allowed people not to get vaccinated?
And if you're wrong? What if those who are vaccine free do better? I mean you've got a good idea there with the A/B testing but what if your premise is wrong or the anti-vaccine crowd is right and they do end up healthier despite the presence of diseases?
Singling out a random group of people to fuck over “for educational purposes” doesn't seem like a humane idea...
- Random?
Sadly, there is no amount of in-their-face proof to overcome the "I do my own research" mentality.
And the original meme here misses the most important piece - they lack the basic concept of logic to understand how cause and effect relate to each other. So showing them A vs B won't get them to the results you expect - even though it should.

Academia is completely captured by capitalism. That's why "scientists" can't/won't/don't go after their masters. How can people oppose genocide when they're working to build the weapons of genocide? And a society that accepts genocide will accept anything.

I mean most don't go to their PhDs because it is effectively training for being an academic. Except there are very few jobs for academics so you'll be an adjunct professor getting paid poverty wages.

I will argue this is not the problem. It's that vaccines were too good in their effectiveness. A victim of their own success.

The problem is not and has not been science. The problem is messaging.

This is the same reason why anti-vax is so popular, you think that's about science? It's idiots like RFK Jr and Trump have the ear of people. It's all messaging folks.

A person is smart. People are dumb.

The problem is not and has not been science. The problem is messaging.
Yes, but the actual factor driving this is the meteoric rise of the top 1% richest, it is wealth inequality that creates a coherence to misinformation by establishing systematic incentives. There have always been nebulous, destructive, cancer like forces of misinformation, it is as human as human can be but we aren't really fighting to transcend the pitfalls our own nature, we are fighting to get on the same page about the rich fucking us all over by artificially supercharging these tendencies within us for their own gain.
It is irrational to just see this as an abstract conversation about the human brain's susceptibility to misinformation as it ignores the costly material operation being undertaken to manipulate us with said misinformation.
A person is smart. People are dumb.
Well between the anti-vaxxers and any-vaxxers, the any-vaxxers won, by measure of how many took the jabs, believing "follow the science" without detecting an oxymoron.
Beware the power of advertising and ignorance of epistemology.
I have to agree about the too good in their effectiveness. To get to a point where people are just like, “Nah, it ain’t a big deal” is built atop the millions of dead.

the bigger problem is that some teachers are so mentally checked out that they make those subjects actively unappealing. I wonder what makes them that way...

This is an important comment. We do not teach science on high schools , we stream students to science if they are self directed, then everyone else takes bullshit courses for an easy grade, these days acheived with LLMs.
- yeah, and this approach is so bullshit it is ridiculous - it depends on a child being self-conscious and motivated enough to get into stuff that A LOT of time and effort to understand even with significant adult assistance and proper focus. Of course there will be a significant segment that won't handle it well

If smart people are so smart, why aint they in charge? Checkmate nerds!

Because with educatio comes a sense of ethics and responsibility. Anyone with ethics will never get accepted into any political party.
"Smart people" are generally not rich people. They are coerced into labor like anyone else. Sometimes their labor is even useful.
They generally don't have the time or reason to participate in a counter-productive popularity contest.
Because there's no valid nor sound singular-pecking-order, and typically those "smart people" respected as "so smart" are "smart" in other aptitudes than the social aptitude and ruthlessness to so social climb and manipulate to be "in charge".
I very often say: we can all be polymaths in the making, not slaves in training. If/when we do so proceed that way, we'd catch more of these follies, and seek better protections and implementations and systems, than just leaving it to the most ruthless social climber, the most effective liar, getting in charge.
Because to be successful in politics it's much more important to be charismatic and well spoken than to be actually smart. It's a dad state of affairs.
- Hi dad, I'm democracies vital weakness and strength, the voter
- Agreed, we need to get the dad brainrot out of office. When, if ever, was the last time we didn't have a dad for president?

the problem is that critical thinking should be a reflex and not a mental effort

Exactly

the problem is most emphatically not people skipping stuff in school, the problem is that the world is filled with people who have literally researched how to mislead and manipulate people. The only classes i think would actively help protect you against this is history and political science.

We can't expect everyone to be educated in every field so they can recognize misinformation, what we need is for everyone to recognize fascism and general authoritarian methods.

A bit of philosophy/media would help as well, it doesn't help to teach someone science, if they don't understand what science is.
To your point, I've met quite a few STEM educated people who fall for this type of misinformation due to lack of historical and political literacy.
Quite a few are also quite disrespectful to the humanities so they tend to be empathetically underdeveloped since they feel their whole life is about producing results and making progress at any cost necessary.
- I’m really happy to see this discussion here. Intellectual self defense comes from a well rounded liberal arts education. The type of people who whine about having to take general education and non science courses are already displaying an alarming lack of critical thinking skills; they are exactly the ones who need it most.
Appeal to emotions, rather than logic, and if you pull the right lever, that person will get a bias confirmation, feel smarter for knowing something everyone else doesn't and in some cases, feel less insecure for not knowing enough.
I've met people that have a degree or that are even teaching and have the worst baseless believes. It's only a matter of getting to your levers.
Media literacy and how to validate sources. Unfortunately, the second part was primarily taught in college when I was still in school.
Critical thinking is very difficult to teach. Its so much easier for people to just accept whatever confirms their current preconceived notion. It also requires that the person is both open to learning new things and that they are open to the idea that they may be wrong, misinformed, or not know everything.
So many people are simply over confident about their own knowledge.

I studied history (and by that I mean I liked to watch documentaries) and as a kid I saw educational cartoons and Anime (yes anime) that showed how there was a huge backlash against telephone and telegraphy when they first came out. With farmers blaming telegraph wire for destroying crops or crop diseases and they would sometimes even sabotage the wires and poles.

When I heard of the 5G bullshit that was literally what came to mind... it is incredible how eternal this form of ignorance is.

The telegraph is turning the fricken frogs gay.
- A 19th century Alex Jones sketch coming right up...
  "Gentlemen (and ladies please leave for it is not for your dainty hearts!) These devilish wires that are held upon stakes that plunge into the heart of God's green earth are doing far more than blighting our crops and potatoes! It is this same wire that I have good sources on (show them the papers, John!) *John on another podium waves blank paper piles like they mean something * that afflicted the Irish potato that lead those heathen Catholics to come over here, lorded over by their prince in Rome whose true master is the Jews!
  And the main concern on all good Christian minds from these devilish telegraph wire is that they send an evil miasma that has been proven beyond all doubt (John! The proof!) That they even make the beasts of the land and water stray from the path God has lain forth and has sent them onto the path of SODOM! Gentlemen! They have turned the frogs onto sodomites!
  But fear not, I have a tonic that will prevent all manner of evil from entering your heart! For but a nickel I have pint flask of the Jones invigorator! Guaranteed to ensure proper masculine strength and function, with the ladies never questioning you, and thus rendering no need to beat them to prevent them from straying onto the path of sapphistry!"
Which anime? I don't recall watching anything along those lines, but it sounds like a show I'd enjoy
- It was when I was growing up in the Middle East. They aired all manner of anime and mixed Japanese media (part live action part anime). That one I was thinking about was also Arabic dubbed and I dont recall the title.

I feel like media literacy is more useful for preventing this crap than a scientific education would be, though both help to some degree.

Sure, but a fundamental understanding of the basics, across all disciplines (science , history, literature, and math) helps one spot bullshit from a mile away. Science especially helps apply math and critical thinking.
- IMHO, understanding the Scientific Method and, maybe more importantly, why it is as it is (so, understanding things like Confirmation Bias - including that we ourselves have it without noticing it, which skews our perception, recollection and conclusions - as well as Logical Falacies) is what makes the most difference in how we mentally handle data, information and even offered knowledge from the outside.
  PS: Also more broadly in STEM, the structured and analytical way of thinking in those areas also helps in things like spotting logical inconsistencies, circular logic and other such tricks to make the illogical superficially seem logical.
  Even subtle but common Propaganda techniques used in the modern age are a lot more obvious once one is aware of one's one natural biases and how these techniques act on and via those biases, purposefully avoiding logic.
  Personally I feel that that's the part of my training in Science (which I never finished, since I changed the degree I was taking from Physics to EE half way) is what makes me a bit more robust (though not immune: none of us are, IMHO) to Propaganda.
- Science is powerful but, as you've stated, balance is most critical. It was one of the most impactful biologists of the modern era that wrote "the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace throughout the world the savage races" based on his theory of natural selection.
  As you can imagine, statements like these were used to justify the Atlantic slave trade, the genocide of indigineous people ie. "manifest destiny" and other colonial era horrors.
  One should not treat science or the words of scientists as absolute truth. Unfortunately it is not free from human greed or corruption.
This is something i noticed early on with the generational divide and misinformation on the internet. Older generations never had the internet in school, and this were never taught how to identify a truthful source. Those of us that grew up with the internet were drilled into our heads, "not everything on the internet is true." From both our teachers and the generation who believes everything on the internet.
It was a big sticking point with my in-laws during covid. Theyd send me a link, and 5 minutes later id respond with, "that person never went to any college has no credentials to be commenting on the scientific and biological effects of vaccines. Here's a published dr saying youre wrong." Only to be met with, "you're an idiot. Go get autism if you want."
- I think the flip side of this is Facebook or wherever the link was pushed to your in-laws (which is what I'd guess happened) feels... empowering. Those apps are literally optimized, with billions of dollars (and extensive science, especially psychology), to validate folk's views in the pursuit of keeping them clicking. Their world's telling them they're right; of course your retort will feel offensive and wrong.
  They're in a trap.
  And I still see lot of scientists posit 'why is this happening?' unironically on Twitter or something, which really frustrates me.
- It's not a new thing. The same issues were the case for television, radio, and newspapers. They had to teach media literacy before the internet too. You go back into the archives and you'll see some wild misinformation that's very reminiscent of what we see on the internet. We did have a brief few decades where we had a more consistent and adhered to set of standards, but these were by no means universal. The perception of reliable information is also skewed the combination of being less aware of misinformation when younger and by a unique period where mass reputable media were all saying the same thing... But that also meant they were leaving the same things out.
  But the internet did change things. Standards have been blown up, misinformation is much faster and the volume of it is much higher. Our brains couldn't keep up with 24hr news channels, let alone the cesspools of social media we have now.
- I'll provide a non-western perspective on this:
  My mother was born in mainland China, according to her, doctors were corrupt and would prescribe unnecessary medications or perform unnecessary medical procedures because the doctors were incentivised and get more money by doing so.
  That's why now in the US, he maintains the same beliefs, reluctant to let me get antidepressant medication, because she see the as "crutches", unnecessary "happy pills" for "weak" people, "too many side effects", "harmful for health", "these doctors probably don't know anything", "it's all in your head".
  It goes far as: "try this necklace that repels evil", wtf lol.
  Also: Fucking Wechat and the fucking "herbal medicine"/TCM or whatever🤦‍♂️
I would argue the latter is a good way to learn the former
- Yep, maths and science are only partially about learning maths and science. The even more important purpose is learning critical reasoning skills, which is a requirement for media literacy.
- I'd say critical thinking is divorced from any one subject. You can learn it in a humanities context just as easily as a scientific one.
Specifically epistemology and concrete notions of degrees of truth and how truth is approximated by science.

I've seen a lot of the counter balance to this which is STEM folk not having respect for the humanities, rendering them empathetically underdeveloped.

Yeah the whole "STEM" thing is dumb and anti-science. This corny meme implies that philosophy majors become flat-earthers, etc. It's a great example of the reactionary STEM mindset.
STEM is just another educational grift.
https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/promoting-stem-education-foolishly
https://www.realcleareducation.com/articles/2025/07/15/the_stem_education_bubble_has_burst_1122821.html
https://www.educationworld.com/a_news/opinion-obsession-stem-education-dangerous-1575002673
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02680939.2018.1467599
- This corny meme implies that philosophy majors become flat-earthers, etc.
  No, most philosophy majors still believe in gravity. While flat-earthers cease to believe in gravity once they realize that a flat earth is incompatible with gravity. They replace it with this notion that the earth disc (and the rest of the system) is accelerating upwards through the void at 9.8 m/s^2.
  Though I've come across some interdisciplinary studies types who would probably argue that gravity is a social construct because we describe it with language.
I'm not even sure what you are trying to say here, science and empathy are 2 very different things. This is a very oversimplified version, but science should only be about answering if assumptions we have are true or false, based on enough evidence.
- They're complaining about how it is fashionable to say up with STEM down with Arts, to present them as opposed

People need to learn how to build a "firewall" for their brain.

And epistemology to help build the firewall's list?
"It is the mark of an educated mind, to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily accepting nor rejecting it" --Whoever said that.

i think that conspiracy theories are more about feeling special about knowing some secret knowledge, lots of people fall for this and even create conspiracy theories without realizing, no matter how smart they are

Here's a psychological discussion that expands on that idea: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352250X22000719
Kelly johnson designed the SR71 Blackbird because he was given the alien tech from rosswell new mexico to reverse engineer! No other way could the government trust 1 man with a blank check book and complete authority and have the plane designed and flying in such a short amount of time!
-my favorite conspiracy theory
- If it wasn't alien tech, we would've built a faster plane by now.

Well the new world order is what the people in power want, but they only need smartphones and tv to do it. No chips in the brain needed, people are idiots.

Ah so close. This comic should end with

"I did my own research"

But... I do my own research...

It's a big problem, more if in the education system is based only on the in the accumulation of data and on the other hand without putting priorities in reasoning, worse when science is strongly influenced by absurd religious beliefs. They want usefull and submissive subjects, not thinking people.

Mystery of history Vol 1

Dunning-Kruger effect in full force in a land called Distopia States of Amerika

Not only there, it's a world wide phenomenon. I keep hearing this kind of shit from people here in Germany and my family in Brazil.
- Same here in Belgium
- https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/average-iq-by-country
  The US ranks in the position 33, best are China, Taiwan, Hongkong and South Corea, normal.
  The used Test
  https://international-iq-test.com/
Yet another reminder that all the mentions of Dunning-Kruger are a better display of it's perceived effect than the original study ever was. In the original study, people correctly predicted their performance relative to others, but the discrepancy was in the scale of that difference, which can be attributed to numerous factors. Dumb people just took it as "stupid people think they're smart" and run around saying "Dunning-Kruger" to sound smarter... oh the irony.
And yes, given two mentions in the above text, this is, indeed, a suicide by words.

I was one of those people in college, the only reason I even graduated was because I found tutors to get me through my required math and science credits. I'm smart enough to know that there are many things I don't understand so I listen to who do understand them to not do that is like going to a lawyer and explaining the practice of law or to a mechanic and telling them how to fix your car.

You'll never be a writer but you still learned how to write (if somewhat poorly).

I feel like theres a difference between basic english and
- Yeah basic english is extremely complicated with a vast vocabulary and syntax, while the quadratic formula is a very basic computation that can be summed up in a simple formula.