Digit @ Digit @lemmy.wtf

techno hippie

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2 yr. ago

The real rare gems are still hard to find, and require more ambitious exploring.

Most of the best, I get from suggestions from other people in irc or on the fediverse.

I hope all my fave autistic musicians are not mistaken for AI and deleted under a false-positive detection of being AI. At least my fave's album releases all pre-date AI music generators. Safe, for now.

I think safer would be to encourage all purely AI-generated be tagged as such, so it can be optionally toggled out of view, and then there's less incentive for the unscrupulous to simply hide that it's AI generated. Banning increases the "hide that it's AI" vibes, not the "don't do AI" vibes. Prohibition does not prevent. Prohibition makes the good things bad and the bad things worse.

Why not build a separate one to train those without such?

I mean, if we're doing a two tier thing, surely it'd at least be educational, to help the disadvantaged...

A couple of your refutations are sound, a couple more iffy (may hold up), and the rest, fail and even add more fallacies. XD ... that's a lot of flexing Brandolini's law. Not sure it's worth it. In the attempts to refute, added something like 38 new fallacies, for a total of about 57 fallacies now, kinda overshadows the 2-5 refuted. I'm out. Enough red flags.

Yeah, so, something like mtpaint...?

I hear microsoft are putting AI slop in mspaint.

Good time to move to free software without abusive spyware bloat clutter interfering?

suse, canonical, mozilla, redhat, the linux foundation, all seem rich to me.

I hope it does not disappear too.

Interesting discussions ensue.

Though, that reply, [ironically (given it critiques the query of a fallacy in prior message)] straight away had me plug it in to an LLM to see if it could see/name fallacies I was failing to.

[Oh, and, yeah, LLMs need repeated whipping to make sure they are adequately prompted to use fish. As I repeatedly encountered and had to correct for when writing my text editor in fish]

::: spoiler if you like fallacy spotting done by an LLM:

1. Appeal to Probability (Argumentum ad Probabilitatem)

"I’m making the logical guess that since fish is the least used shell of the three... it’s usage would be proportional as well."

Pika assumes that because Fish is less popular, it must be less practical for sharing scripts, which is an appeal to probability (not a guarantee, just a likelihood).

2. Illicit Minor (Logical Fallacy)

"My friends don’t use fish, so it’s unlikely that your friends use fish."

This is a classic illicit minor: assuming a universal conclusion ("your friends") from a specific premise ("my friends").

3. Appeal to Authority (subtle, regarding LLMs)

"LLMs do not like fish shell for bash to fish conversion... Deepseek had the most success of them."

This subtly implies that because LLMs struggle with Fish, it must be inherently flawed or difficult, which is an appeal to authority (LLMs as arbiters of usability).

4. Anecdotal Evidence

"What would take me 2 minutes to search for a problem with a script using zsh took me 10-15 minutes of research with fish..."

Pika uses personal experience as evidence for a general claim about Fish’s usability, which is anecdotal and not necessarily representative.

5. False Dilemma

"I came to the conclusion that if I was having to convert parts of it to bash anyway... I might as well do it in bash to begin with."

This frames the choice as "either use Fish and convert, or just use Bash," ignoring the possibility that Fish might have unique advantages or that conversion tools could improve.

6. Appeal to Tradition

"I had already learned bash prior to this, whereas you had not learned bash."

This subtly suggests that because Bash is the "traditional" or "original" shell, it is inherently better or more practical, which is an appeal to tradition.

7. Slippery Slope (subtle)

"I’m not going to be a spearhead for it, I don’t want to have to exert more energy than necessary..."

This implies that advocating for Fish would lead to an unsustainable or burdensome effort, which is a slippery slope.

8. Appeal to Emotion (Frustration)

"struggling to search for how to do something because the makers of the shell in their infinite wisdom decided to make a new keyword for something that was already stupid easy to use..."

This is emotionally charged language, framing Fish’s design choices as arbitrary or foolish, which is an appeal to emotion.

9. Hasty Generalization

"Usually my path of research would require me to look up the issue using fish, find no solution so look up the issue using bash..."

Pika generalizes from their limited experience to a universal claim about Fish’s documentation and community support.

10. Appeal to Consequences (Pragmatic Fallacy)

"I found the gains I got using fish didn’t outweigh the losses."

This argues against Fish based on personal consequences (effort, time), rather than objective merits or flaws.

10. Begging the Question (Circular Reasoning)

"Lack of usage was my biggest reason for bailing on it. I do a lot of script sharing with my friend group and I’m not wanting to have to do everything twice in order to be able to share it."

Why? Pika assumes that Fish’s lack of usage is a valid reason to avoid it, but this is circular: the lack of usage is because people avoid it, not the other way around. The reasoning assumes the conclusion (Fish is impractical) as a premise.

11. Appeal to Tradition (Reiterated, with Nuance)

"I had already gotten fairly well first with bash by the time I started using it, and the way fish did it was just super counterintuitive to me."

This is not just an appeal to tradition, but also an appeal to familiarity. Pika argues that because they are used to Bash, Fish is "counterintuitive," which is subjective and ignores the possibility that Fish’s design might be more intuitive for others (as Digit claims).

12. False Cause (Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc)

"I came to the conclusion that if I was having to convert parts of it to bash anyway in order to research issues with it, I might as well do it in bash to begin with."

Pika assumes that because they had to convert Fish scripts to Bash to solve problems, Bash is inherently better. This ignores the possibility that the issues could be resolved within Fish with better documentation or community growth.

13. Appeal to Effort

"I’m not going to be a spearhead for it, I don’t want to have to exert more energy than necessary..."

This fallacy argues that because something requires effort, it is not worth doing, regardless of its potential benefits.

14. Moving the Goalposts

"I might revisit the shell some day, maybe if it ever becomes super popular..."

Pika shifts the criteria for Fish’s acceptability from "usability" to "popularity," which is a different standard and not inherently linked to the shell’s technical merits.

15. Appeal to Novelty (Reverse Appeal to Tradition)

"the makers of the shell in their infinite wisdom decided to make a new keyword for something that was already stupid easy to use..."

Here, Pika dismisses Fish’s innovations simply because they are new or different, implying that change is inherently bad.

16. Composition/Division Fallacy

"Fish has a very small user base in comparison to ZSH and Bash and when I make a script that’s more advanced I tend to want to share it with my friends..."

Pika assumes that because Fish has a smaller user base overall, it must also have a smaller user base among their friends. This conflates a global statistic with a local, personal context.

17. Appeal to Authority (LLMs as Arbiters of Truth)

"LLMs do not like fish shell for bash to fish conversion..."

Pika uses the struggles of LLMs as evidence that Fish is inferior, which is an appeal to authority (LLMs are not infallible or objective judges of shell usability).

18. Poisoning the Well

"the makers of the shell in their infinite wisdom decided to make a new keyword..."

The sarcastic tone ("infinite wisdom") preemptively undermines the credibility of Fish’s developers, making any argument in favor of Fish seem unreasonable.

19. Appeal to Common Practice

"with bash or zsh, I run into an issue I can just search the issue..."

This assumes that because Bash/ZSH are more commonly used, they are inherently better for problem-solving, ignoring the possibility that Fish’s design might reduce the need for such searches in the first place.

20. Straw Man (Misrepresenting Digit’s Argument)

"You must not have to share your scripts with anyone then, right?"

Pika misrepresents Digit’s argument as "Fish users don’t share scripts," when Digit’s point was that sharing scripts is possible regardless of the shell’s popularity.

21. Appeal to Fear (FUD: Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt)

"also fair warning, the last 2 topics on fish shell that appeared in this community got nuked after 2 days..."

This introduces fear that the discussion might be censored or deleted, which is irrelevant to the technical merits of Fish.

22. Appeal to Antiquity (Bash/ZSH as "Proven")

Implicit in Pika’s argument is the idea that because Bash/ZSH are older and more established, they are inherently better. This is an appeal to antiquity.

23. Appeal to Consequences (Pragmatic Fallacy)

"I found the gains I got using fish didn’t outweigh the losses."

Pika argues against Fish based on personal consequences, not objective merits.

24. Appeal to Hypocrisy (Tu Quoque, Subtle)

"You must not have to share your scripts with anyone then, right?"

Pika implies that Digit’s advocacy for Fish is hypocritical because they assume Digit doesn’t share scripts. This is a tu quoque if the intent is to undermine Digit’s credibility rather than address the argument.

25. Appeal to Personal Incredulity

"the way fish did it was just super counterintuitive to me."

Pika uses their personal difficulty as evidence that Fish is objectively worse, which is an appeal to personal incredulity.

Can cause issues (with things that expect bash or other nearer POSIX compliant shells as the system shell).

And then I'd lose those other benefits described, like having bash just a keybind away.

[Edit: I could have swore I got that interactive check in bashrc thing from https://fishshell.com/docs/current/faq.html or other documentation on fishshell.com, but, seems not. Can't find it even in older copies. Not sure where I picked up that idea from then. Plausibly from someone on irc. I was sure I got that as official advice from fish... which I've been using and doing that method with since around 2014.]

Shouldn't anarchists be taking the word "libertarian" back from ancaps and other propertarians?

Yes, lets, wherever that's happened. Some places have not suffered this usurpation and perversion of language.

Are not the copyleft licenses the opposite of artificial scarcity, not just affirming that opposite, but also affirming to not impose that artificial scarcity later on, as a condition?

Even permissive licenses start from an absence of artificial scarcity. Even if though later on, forks can add their artificial scarcity.

to make money from software, a company needs to build a “moat”.

No. There are other ways.

I've paid more for Free Software licensed software voluntarily than I ever did for proprietary software with its moats. Largely because they have no moat.

How about MyPaint? :)

Or Pinta?

Or you just prefer something simple like like mtpaint?

For more info,

Mark Carney was nepotistic shoe in for the head of the Bank of England, closely working with the Conservative government, during the worst of the cull of the vulnerable disabled poor, often called "the fit-to-work scandal" (which I call "A Very British Genocide"), functioning like a witch hunt (if you drown you were not a witch). As I've oft seen said he "ran cover" for it. Over 130,000 people killed in very cruel ways, being starved, frozen, denied medication, stressed to suicide from the abuse and intentional breaches of duty of care. And under a decade of total corporate media blackout (and worse, egging on, like the Daily Mail's lies, saying (iirc) something like 95% of all benefits claimants were conning the system (later revealed less than 0.7%)), until Francesca Martinez managed to break the silence on Question Time. And still many are completely oblivious to this having happened.

Good luck Canada.

the mass media started a generic campaign against corruption to mobilize public anger

All too familiar here. Survived a genocide here that they spurred on public anger for and indifference to with lies. Except that was to cover up corruption and shift blame (and hate) to the vulnerable.

allegations saying that Azov isn’t nazi at all and it’s just Russian propaganda, than their own pictures and speeches showing they are literal nazis (same for other the other groups I mentioned in the post).

Yes, and unfortunately such is effective, especially in the minds of those who want to believe. Group-think does terrible things to people, causing them to do yet even more terrible things to other people yet. Especially when so manipulated and curated. Doubly especially when used to hide and normalise things like Nazism.

Everyone that was against this nazi-enforced coup was labelled pro-Russian, regardless of whether they were just against a nazi-enforced coup.

Yep. A very familiar pattern now. Same modus-operandi over and over. Terrorises minds out of nuance, to protect the narrative that permits the ploys and abuse.

Opposition was outlawed and persecuted, and then the regions that had a clear majority against the coup, which to my surprise nowadays is called the Revolution of Dignity, started being bombed and slaughtered for not recognizing the new government.

Almost like that's the intended ploy, and those behind the armies are really, secretly, on the same side, against the people, and are merely using the lines on the map to further separate and abuse us by.

They organized and had clear, internationally observed referendums about their self-determination, but it was dismissed and ridiculed by Western media and governments, and this is where Russian active support to these regions enters.

And none of this would be happening if not for the PNAC and associated ploys, and NATO expansion in breach of the treaties that had kept the peace. Not following their own rules, so they can carry out these monstrous ploys, throwing those who would be most fit to rise up against the corrupt political structures, into the meat grinder. Priming the next phase of the weapons of mass distraction, by which they acquire, through terror, more power over people, making us more vulnerable to their plans to depopulate the world to way under 500 million people, as they had published on the Georgia guide stones, as if such vast atrocity were a necessary virtue. (It's not. ~ They sit on the means of abundance and emancipation, hog tie us to pollution and rents, then blame us, and offer the solution of a global cull of the human population, rather than relinquish their oppressive power over us and their suppression of the means of emancipation, where even they would be richer than they are now. It's beyond merely stupid. And then we're supposed to run around in fear, distracted by other countries, that they also abuse, and play abuse off abuse, to keep us all distracted, like a magician not wanting us to see through their trick. Oh noes! Russia! Oh noes! The Ukraine! And pay no attention to the calls for self determination, autonomy, independence, and different ways of doing things. Just kept in the false dichotomy from the opposames.)

I don’t believe for a second in Russia’s good intentions,

Yeah. Putin (whichever of his dozen+ body doubles (and/or skinsuits/androids/clones)) is in the same big club. Talks a better talk than many of the political muppets in the west, more actually like an adult in the room, but ultimately still attends the same parties, still a "WEF Young Leader", ruled by the same banking empire.

but I believe for people so cornered, they accept support from anyone.

Yeah, like the other reply here highlighted an example of.

It's easy to be an angel in heaven. Hard not to ally with a devil when a bigger devil's threatening you.

However, Western media and social media platforms were always pro-Western agenda. American liberals eat that shit like cornflakes and pose as “left” on the internet, so all that was opposed was dismissed as Russian propaganda, etc, etc, even what I’d read from Ukrainian anarchist sources. So it was always kinda pointless taking it to Twitter or so because of the American “left”. There are a lot of activists that are now mature and are probably very knowledgeable about theory and praxis and current events, but that I fear had their formative “rebel” years on Twitter and its narratives (not anyone’s fault, it’s hard to find information on your own when you don’t have anyone to help you, and liberals do pose as rebels on Twitter).

Yep. Not my left (and not even left).

As a current example, articles in well-known Canadian publications consistently pretend they have zero MAGA-like conservatives, in spite of decades of evidence of the contrary and the 2025 election proving otherwise.

And that well known (worse) example in recent years.

Yup. Alas, succumbing to the fallacious "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" ploy. Redraws the lines of division, breaking "class solidarity", keeping us divided, conquered, and worse.

Were you following the Ukrainian anarchists in 2014?

Merely loosely aware of. [May have seen some stuff directly from anarchists there, but I don't recall specifically.]

In 2014, I was more paying attention to the leaked info on suppressed [potentially] emancipatory technologies (like zero inertia propulsion spaceships in use (e.g. by the US Navy, such as TR-3B)), and participating in overt emancipatory technology development (like distro-agnostic linux tooling) and advocacy and support and community building. But was peripherally aware of both, the crooked statist jingoist portions of global hegemony & totalitarian tyranny ploys afoot in the Ukraine, and, the increase of leaving that corrupt devastating dangerous system to participate in anarchist (like-minded) do-ocratic organisings, doings, support, which I did not doubt was in part caused by the worsening geopolitical situation atop the pre-existing oligarchy problem.

and now it’s hard to even find references to these groups and their actions on the internet

The past dozen years have been especially bad for the enshitification of the internet, not least by corporate search engines increasingly censoring heavily, going from tens of thousands of search results (to freely rummage through), to mere hundreds, if even, like they want to just give you "the one true way". Our contemporary book burning before our eyes, at our fingertips. History being rewritten.

Given the "first casualty"¹ propaganda going around, it's not surprising that this piece of history is especially hit hard.

I’m afraid if I start talking about Donetsk and Lugansk I might get accused of something,

And I think that's part of the intent, of both the censorship and smears, to terrorise people into self-censorship in fear of the baying totalitarians all around ready to lynch anyone for "wrongthink", to decry them as a witch or whatever other slur for the othered outcast class who do not stay in the mass formation repeating the groupthink chorus. But best (only?) way to defeat such totalitarianised psyche proliferation, is to keep speaking out, introducing them to other perspectives, until the cognitive dissonance intrinsic to the totalitarianised psyche short-circuits and they experience an awakening, and can start rebuilding their atrophied cognitive capacities, no longer being kept in a terrorised social-dominance limbic reflex. [Edit: And, it's worth remembering, totalitarianism unchallenged only worsens, where any and all atrocities are seen as necessary virtues. Not challenging them to keep your head down and stay safe, is not a viable option.]

the anarchists had documented the nazis very well… is there a generational gap of information here?

Anything archived anywhere? Like even on archive.org? Would be nice to dig up and re-present some of this history.

How many people were following anarchist press (not the shit you’d find on Twitter, Tumblr, or whatever) back in 2014?

I wonder if perhaps I was seeing some of it, not just from astute friends on irc, but also from those posting to the first big diaspora pod, joindiaspora.com [Edit: funnily enough closed in (iirc) 2020 (or 2021?), without diaspora's migration fully working yet, meaning we had to join new pods without our contacts and post history etc], which was quite active with a higher concentration of those most interested in anarchism and similar areas of interest back then (before the googleplus exodus "bubbly bunch" joined with their choir of corporate-statist normalcy).

Would be really good to have some of that history neatly presented for the normies in reductive opposame-polarised groupthink mindsets/narratives to short-circuit upon.

¹ "The first casualty of war is the truth."

You mean “can you remove systemd”? Short answer: yes.

? you can? I'd rather start without it, than try to remove it.

Should you do it? Only if you’re fucking insane.

Why do you say that?

Just use Artix if you care that much

Or Devuan (or any devuan respin), or CRUX, or Gentoo, or VoidLinux, or Slackware, or GuixSD, or Loc-OS, or Alpine, or Joborun, or Hyperbola, or Parabola, or Venom, or PCLinuxOS, or GoboLinux, or SulinOS, or KISS Linux, or Carbs Linux, or LigurOS, or Dragora, or GlaucusLinux, or NutyX, or AntiX, or MXLinux, or Slitaz, or Puppy (or any pup respins), or PuffOS, or TinyCore, or Slax, or Chimera, or NXOS, or Peppermint, or LFS, or CalculateLinux, or RedCore Linux, or Obarun, or BedrockLinux, 4MLinux, or Absolute Linux, or Austrumi Linux, or BharOS, or CalyxOS, or Damn Small Linux, or DivestOS, or Dyne:bolic, or e, or Knoppix, or Kwort Linux, or LibreCMC, or LightOS, or LineageOS, or Nanolinux, or Porteus, or Salix, or Source Mage, or VectorLinux, or Vine Linux, or Zenwalk, or Zeroshell, or...

... Or any of the BSDs, or SerenityOS, or any of the AROS distros, or the one Ironclad distro (Gloire), or any of the OpenSolaris distros, or ReactOS, or Redox, or Kolibrios, or SculptOS, or Plan9/9Front, or Haiku, or...

... Did I miss any? [Edit... oh, I missed dozens]

It's not like there's just one, nor even just an "insane" few, to avoid systemd. Contrary to the corporate encouraged misinfo smears going around.

Even if one is insistent users stay in the arch cult, there are like half a dozen options.

I prefer freedom of choice.

Long live init-freedom.

Defy group-think dogma.

[PS, I do like the play on "Just use Mint". ;)]

I had to bite my tongue and not just spray tonnes of them in here too.

It's not a flash-forward scene from Young Sheldon, of old Sheldon, is it?