It wasn't your fault
It wasn't your fault
If you find one, you find a group cos like attracts attracts like.
147 comments
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So, this is a fun one:
- A rapist often has more than one victim.
- Someone who disclosed to one person may well have disclosed to many.
- Rapists tend not to self-disclose.
- The definition of rape is badly established between both parties (it's an absolute minefield).
What you end up with is lots of small factors giving the illusion of a higher frequency by counting the same predator twice among women, and you also have factors that may cause predators not to be counted by men giving the illusion of a lower frequency.
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The definition of rape is badly established between both parties
Well, you had me right up to this point. But the "how was I supposed to know?" shit is consistently said by the worst creeps.
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You just reaffirmed what they said.
There are rapists that don’t think it’s rape.
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It is indeed, your point?
My reply was to answer the question asked, not to take a moral stance.
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The pawblem is that it's not just the worst creeps though. There are plenty of men, and even some women, who will say it's not rape if:
- She didn't say no
- She's a sex worker
- They're married
- He stealths (even if they agree that's wrong, calling it rape seems to be "taking it too far" for many)
There are plenty more examples I can think of but these are the most common in my opinion. Maybe you can make the argument that people that don't see these as rape are also the "worst creeps". However, it still follows OC's point that the definition isn't universal in a way where less men will know a rapist then women.
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I was in the process of writing a long response that almost completely mirrored your top 2.
- 1 to many
- Self reporting
I added a clustering or self-filtering problem, basically rapists likely don’t have a lot of friends so that’s why guys would necessarily know a rapist.
And I hadn’t even considered your last point but it is indeed a valid one, although it really shouldn’t be all that different.
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It definitely shouldn't, but out there is a man who thinks torturing consent out of someone isn't rape, and a woman who thinks refusing to marry after sex is rape.
Between those two extremes (and beyond them!) is every shade of definition, and the lines vary by nation and culture. This is not a statement condoning this, it is a sad one of fact.
(Edit, even in this very thread is someone who thinks rape is defined by not agreeing with them!)
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Rapists know they'd be punished and/or shunned if they spoke of their crimes, so they don't talk about it.
Victims on the other hand are encouraged to seek help; talking through the trauma as a means of coping and healing.
It only makes sense the victim would be more commonly known about than the offender.
On top of that; a rapist is more likely to have created multiple victims, it's not just a 1:1 comparison.
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This is the most logical conclusion.
Although I will say, I've met people that openly admitted to terrible behavior. Not rape, but very shitty things nontheless.
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And when I hear someone admit to shitty behavior, I tend to distance myself from them long before they get to the point of admitting rape or any other form of SA.
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Exactly, that's why we have to end the punitive and carceral 'justice' system that doesn't work and move to a restorative and transformative justice system instead.
This would lead to less harm over time as it would not only remove the conditions that make people fear speaking out about their abuse, but also lead to teaching people not to abuse in the first place.
The reason why such things happen is because of abuse growing up and a lack of education on how to go about having good relationships with others, gender roles and toxic relationships with those who are supposed to care for us is a huge problem and the current system is incapable of dealing with, catching and changing these problems because they simply put do not wish the status quo to change, it benefits them.
If the power in society was not put with 'parents' and allowed communities to catch, educate and modify such behaviour and remove children from such situations over time it would lower such problems. The current system does not seek to deal with the root causes, it only punishes long after any such harm and bad lessons have been taught which clearly does not work.
That's why we need restorative and transformative justice to remove the core power dynamics in relationships and throughout society which lead to such things, it wouldn't be overnight, but then the current system clearly doesn't know how to nor does it wish to get rid of these things and so it isn't ever going to deal with them.
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Probably because most rapists are repeat offenders which makes more rape victims than rapists, if I had to give a legitimate guess. That and non-rapists tending not to associate with people they know are rapists.
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Well, rapists don't brag about it probably, but women will talk to each other for support.
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You think Trump and his friends didn't talk about what they did? The same guy that can't keep his mouth shut about anything? The same guy that has to constantly talk about how amazing something he did was?
Unfortunately, I think they do, but only to their like-minded friends.
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Because the amount of rapist's among the toral male population is incredibly small?
Not saying there isn't a discussion to be had here. But this argument is moronic and goes against what it's trying to say
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Also "Do I know a rapist?" No.
Did I? At one point yeah... piece of shit is dead to me now.
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If 1 in 100 men is a rapist, then he can rape a lot more women than 1 in 100. Very few people are responsible for most occasions, similarly with divorces, etc.
Also why would anyone admit to being a rapist?
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No, the rate is around 30% of men have engaged in sexually aggressive behavior. It is endemic in our society hence why the majority of women have been sexually assaulted in their lifetime.
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What’s the definition of sexually aggressive behavior? I’m not doubting this statistic but it doesn’t sound like it’s measuring the same thing here.
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Do you have a source for the number because it seems entirely made up.
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This is insultingly untrue
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... What does 30% of men have engaged in sexually aggressive behaviour mean?
Like it's been a long long long tradition that women predominantly prefer to be "chased" and expect men to be aggressive.
30% isn't a large number, that represents about 15% of the global population about 600 million people out of 8 billion approximately
I think you might want to rethink how you express your argument here because I don't think this is what you are trying to communicate.
Again, what do you really mean when you use the term sexually aggressive?
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Stop trying to downplay rape by calling it "sexually aggressive behaviour", you rape apologist.
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Because the same few guys are raping a lot of different women.
Because most non-rapist guys choose not to associate with predatory guys, while the latter's victims didn't have a choice in the matter.
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Because most non-rapist guys choose not to associate with predatory guys
That explains a lot. A guy in my high school touched a girl's breast. We ostracised him then he went to another school and never heard from again.
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Man here. I was once a mandatory reporter so i absolutely know some rapists. Some of the cases involved men (or women) i knew.
I do want to acknowledge that women are disproportionately the victims of sexual violence and rape, but if i could id just mention that victims of sexual violence and rape can be any gender, and the rapists can be any gender as well. I mention that since the sign kind of assumes that men won't be victims themselves or that they wouldnt tell their friends like women.
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Man here as well. I was sexually assaulted at work. Company did nothing but I did spend some time in a mental ward due to having panic attacks coming back into the office.
Assaulter was a man, never got fired. I was kinda told to deal with it.
I don't think I'm friends with any rapists but it's hard to tell. I had a friend that gets like a large number of hits on Tinder and basically hooks up really often with a new chick. One day, he described how he treated one of his girls that he wanted to settle down with, I was a bit horrified. He was saying things like, "she really thought she was at my level, I had to tell her I was number one in this relationship", "I had to separate her from her friends they were getting on my nerves". I was like ... oh shit, this guy's a possible abuser. I just kinda stopped hanging out with the dude. That girl did eventually dump him which he was sobbing to me about.
I try to avoid people like that to be honest.
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Bluntly, everyone should consider themselves to be a mandatory reporter.
I know the term has a specific legal definition, but if more people adopted that mindset, then maybe there would be fewer rapists walking free...
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Who tf would go around admitting to serious crimes that'll get you shunned from most circles?
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Also, I'm going to assume most rapists are serial rapists.
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Exactly why we need to rethink how we deal with this kind of thing.
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Dear God this thread is a cesspit
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I'm locking this thread while I clean it up.
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FWIW I have had to excommunicate multiple people from my life based on credible accusations of sexual assault. One of them was my best friend.
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Genuinely curious, how would you handle it if even one of those credible accusations were completely wrong and uncalled for? I have no idea how I would handle it but haven't been in your position
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That's a good question. I can only answer this question hypothetically because it's always been something I was reasonably sure of.
With my best friend, I didn't want to believe it but the accusation was damning. I ended up becoming close to a girl he raped and she told me herself that it happened. When confronted, my friends story basically amounted to admitting to date rape. The reality was likely worse but that's immaterial to the end of our friendship.
The other time a good friend of mine essentially told me his plans to date rape a young girl. We were about 18 and he planned to do MDMA with a 14 year old girl alone at his house.
So in both cases the guy essentially told me themselves and just didn't realize that I wouldn't see it the same way they did.
I take these kinds of accusations very seriously. I will always believe victims but at the same time it's demonstrably true that people make false allegations of sexual assault and it ruins lives.
I think we have to be hyper critical of these kinds of accusations. By getting this wrong we run the risk of causing these accusations to lose weight and meaning. That being said we need to be hyper critical in a way that doesn't cause real victims to feel like they can't come forward. I won't say I know what that looks like exactly.
If I found out that I had removed someone from my life due to a false accusation like this I would be very upset. I would feel used and manipulated and I would be actually more upset at the false accusations than I ever was as the alleged rapist. In my view the false accuser has hurt not only the accused and myself, but they have hurt every single legitimate rape survivor.
I really don't have the answer to this myself but I think the best people to ask would be rape survivors and people who have been falsely accused.
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I did, actually. Our college never did anything about him and I don't believe he got into legal trouble. We did kick him off of our special dorm floor at least. Piece of shit.
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RAINN says only 3% of men commit it.
So I’d say that’s why most men don’t know a rapist.
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I can "know" a hundred men and I probably know a rapist, but I don't know that they're a rapist.
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Only? That's a disturbingly large percentage imo, it's around 1 in 33. Think of how many male friends, relatives, colleagues, and other acquaintances you've had in your life, it's likely way higher than that. We all likely know rapists, we just don't realise exactly who they are.
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Yes, and not every rapist is a serial rapist who goes around preying on everyone he can get his hands on. I think those guys are a minority within a minority. More commonly may be guys who did it once and later regretted it and never did it again, or in between (went through a phase in college but later got married and settled down).
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If you're getting it from here, I think you misread it. It says that 3% of men have experienced attempted/completed rape, not done it themselves. This study suggests that 10% of men commit it in college though, which would be worse. Most of them aren't serial rapists though and hopefully feel guilt, so my guess is that they wouldn't want to admit it to anyone that knows them
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Determined how?
I can't imagine that's a survey that'd be filled out honestly...
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Yeah I'm extremely sceptical of any survey that relies on self-reporting. Especially when you were admitting to a crime.
What a crap methodology.
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Jesus Christ 3% of men are rapists? That's horrifyingly high. I knew I was terrified of men but I wasn't scared enough.
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Have been + are, I think.
Probably doesn’t improve your feeling of safety…
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This is - and I cannot overstate it - a joke.
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Yeah because sometimes women yell that some dude raped her even if he didnt. She dgaf if this statement fucks up his life, she wont face consequences for false accusations.
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I have never met anybody of any gender who does that. If you're hanging out with people who do, you're in with a bad crowd.
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You know, there are people who falsely accuse other people of rape. It happens. And it is awful and should be punished. But it is such a miniscule minority compared to the actual number of SA cases. "Women put forward false rape accusations" falls under the same category as "easy access to abortion will lead to women treating abortion as a form of birth control" or "people will exploit social security because they are lazy and don't want to work".
Like, do they really think that happens all the time? One in three women puts forward false rape accusations, just like one in three women is actually SA'ed? Dude at work annoys me so much I'll just call him a rapist and get him fired. And sure, I'll just get a abortion every month instead of using a condom because an abortion is just sooo much more convenient. But sometimes I'm, like, keeping the pregnancy until its last month just to fuck with the doctors and demand an abortion two weeks before the due date, just for funsies. And man, have you ever lived off of social security? That's so amazing bro, I much prefer being not able to afford anything but crackers and teabags and choosing between whether to feed myself or my children, that's like a lottery, so much fun, so much better than a job!
These cases exist. I'm sure there are psychopaths who do that. But focusing on them is such a disservice to millions of people who actually suffer. It glimpses over the reality to portray some absurd extreme cases.
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Would you care to elaborate
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I am a man. I do not know the answer to this question and it's fucking disturbing.
Edit: I spent 30 more seconds thinking about it and realized that victims who speak are heard, but almost no perpetrator thinks they're doing anything wrong.
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yeah..... also male here. i.......... never really thought about this. if i dont know any rapists, that means i probably do know rapists that i dont know are rapists.
well fuck.
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Nah unlikely. Rape is mostly a corruption issue i think, like sex trafficking.
This study of 12600 college students indicates that 87% of rape was committed by serial rapists , and 46% is committed by individuals who have committed 10+ rapes. overall 5% of surveyed students admitted to some form of rape while under the influence of alcohol, but 20% of women and 7% of men report being raped in the past.
The thing about a serial rapist - they must have some means of keeping women from reporting them, or getting away with it repeatably.
These people tend to use dogwhistles and form cliques, and once one gets into a position of power they get all their buddies up too to protect one another.
Letcher county is an example of a ring that got busted open recently. The rural towns judge and deputy and their buddies basically threatened and coerced underage girls and their families into fucking them and attending diddy parties. The sheriff found his daughters number in the judges phone and shot him.
Police do this regularly too in the USA, some places are better than others but the whole brotherhood and solidarity shit is basically their dogwhistle saying 'we commit crime and cover for eachother.' The louder they say it the worse they are. So naturally they attract rapists and murderers to join them, and fire out anyone that may blow the whistle on em.
Its the same thing with weinstein, epstein, diddy, in the military, and probably trump with the republican party. A ringleader gets some power, grows their sphere of influence and uses it to gate opportunity or threaten women into sex acts. Rinse and repeat for decades and decades and you get a very small percent of people spreading stds like theyre halloween candies.
And once people are in theres no getting out. Thats why epstein and diddy film everything, blackmail.
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Out of all the men you've known, yes you will have known some. But like attracts like so IME they only hang round with other abusers
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It's really not. If a rapist rapes several women, there's a 1xN distribution. Then they think they did nothing wrong, so they won't mention they raped someone, but that they had some fun with someone, if you don't know them well you might think they meant they had a date which what normal people do.
So, less perpetrators than victims and perpetrators either don't think they did it or they know and don't say it. It's normal for regular men not to know. I'm a man and I know of victims, not perpetrators.
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This is the problem with the entire claim. Of course most men don't know rapists, in the same way that I don't know most jewel thieves, I assume they don't admit it to me.
There is one guy who I am highly suspicious of, but I have zero actual evidence other than the fact he's a really creepy dude. But I can hardly go to the police with that can I. So maybe I know one possible rapist.
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Personally? Because we all know the orange felon.
Also, I really hope that's not true about many women.
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well it's very common knowledge that men don't confide in each other as much as women do.
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Very interesting to learn that the reddit alternative that attracts tech-users/-career workers also happens to express insecure masculinity openly on this version of a feminist subreddit.
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And aggressive. Their hate of women really spills out
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I have actually gone through and blocked a bunch misogynist assholes that hide under the thin veneer of civility while projecting their insecurities here. I was kind of pissed at first but now I know peace not ever having to talk to these incels ever again.
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I know a femme nb rapist and a masc nb rape victim, and I'm agender. What prize do I win?
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Sadness? The ability/duty to do something meaningful about it to ensure they don't do it again, i.e. not punishment but working with them to undo whatever entitlement they have, lessons they have been taught, trauma they have and power structures they are part of that allows them or makes they want to, do it.
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@QueenMidna@lemmy.ca would you be able to take a look over this thread when you get a chance, I think there's some potentially rulebreaking behaviour. As well, I'm wondering if potentially having more moderators for a community like this is a good idea? The OP of this thread, @LadyButterfly@piefed.blahaj.zone, moderates !womensstuff@piefed.blahaj.zone over on Blahaj and does an excellent job. That is, if she'd be willing too of course.
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Thanks for bringing this to my attention. My Lemmy client doesn't alert me to moderation events, so I'm going to fix it
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I don't know him anymore for obvious reasons.
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Some guy in my high school got expelled for SA in the showers.
We just said he was gay and moved on. I don’t even remember his name or who he was anymore.
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I, calling myself a man, know 2 rapists.
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I mean many man new sbout the rspist epstein
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What?
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They probably know, but the possibility of men admitting to knowing a rapist is as high as the possibility of people admitting to farting.
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"No woman knows a rapist" deranged statement.
"Rape as in forced penetrative intercourse" okay but that's not the definition of rape. Receiving or giving penetration without consent (such as due to being intoxicated past the point of being able to provide consent, unconsciousness, being underage, coersion, manipulation or threat) still constitutes rape whether or not it is "forced".
Men absolutely should be able to talk about being raped, and they should be believed.
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Definitions of rape vary from country to country. I chose the second most defensive one I know. I meant to include unconsciousness. The old one here used to be forced penetrative vaginal sex. I.e. men fundamentally were unable to be raped, for the most part. (Germany) There used to be a similar crime that that conduct would trigger instead.
I meant to say no Woman knows a rapist either, since the post states that "men know no rapists". The idea that most men would know a rapist and not report them to the authorities is just as deranged.
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Things that make you go hmmmmmm
147 comments
It bothers me that anyone pointing to the majority of men who are not rapists, is getting branded as a rape apologist.
As a guy, I can say with certainty that I've never been involved in, nor known about anyone who was the perpetrator of rape.
I firmly believe that the perpetrators, specifically the male perpetrators of rape, if they tell anyone, they say it as a regular sexual encounter. Ladies, we don't go into details taking about who did what in the bedroom. The most I've ever heard from any guy about their sexual exploits, is that they happened "I banged her" (or similar), and sometimes a quip about the experience or the person, eg: "it was great" or "she's a freak (in bed)" or similar.
The reason we don't know that the people we know are rapists, is because they're not coming out and telling us about it. I promise, if they did, they wouldn't be free for long. They'd either end up in jail, or beaten bloody by the majority of us (or worse).
Generally we just don't say much about what happens in the bedroom, to eachother.
Agreed.
I am a man and I am a victim of repeated child sexual abuse. It has broken me forever. While I don't feel comfortable explaining what effects it had on me, let's say that I'll never be a normal functioning person because of what was done to me.
To what you said I would like to add that some of us are victims too and being generalized and then labeled as rapists or apologists is so fucking triggering, it's actually madening. The idea of being associated with my perpetrator is intolerable.
I get it that sexual misconducts are more prevalent in men, but something like 1 in 6 boys will experience some sort of sexual abuse. That is a shitton of victims being labeled as rapist apologists.
Anyways, like you, I think we can have this discussion without aggressively accusing all members of a given gender.
Especially lately with all the Epstein stuff being discussed, I'm sure I'm not the only one feeling trapped in a constant spiral of flashbacks and stuck in a non-stop dissociated state especially that there is no accountability in sight.
In any cases, let's have compassion for all the victims no matter their gender or sex and let's focus our anger toward the abusers.
I don't think it's possible for me to agree with you more.
I will only add the I empathize with you and all of the other victims regardless of gender. Please know that you are valued for who you are, not what has happened to you.
Be well.
It bothers me that anyone has ould bother to point out not all men are rapists. We aren't talking about or to you. Why do you feel the need to say something that everyone knows?
Its because on some level, these people know that people like them have done bad shit and they want to defend themselves.
It ain't about you dickhead.
But it is. Because I see time and time again in the comments here that if I'm male, I'm either an apologist, or a rapist. This thread has disenfranchised an entire gender.
I have all the empathy in the world for victims. I am not one of them, nor am I a perpetrator. I would, quite readily, turn in any person I know if they were a self admitted rapist. Moreover, I would entrap them by recording their confession, and submit it as evidence against them.
I don't wish to diminish the point made in the OP, it's important to recognize the victims of rape. The fact is, the perpetrators are not exactly bragging about raping someone, so they don't exactly stand out. If they did, they wouldn't remain a free person.
I get the point in the OP, but the comments here have been extremely toxic, branding every man who replies as either a rapist or an apologist.
It's disgusting that someone would regard an entire gender as one, or the other. Many of us don't know if we even know anyone who has committed the crime, and never thought about it beyond the fact that it's a bad thing to happen... These bystanders are now apologists?
Then stop saying all men are rapists. Stop treating men like theyre all rapists. Stop implying that if I knew my friend was a rapist, he would still be breathing.
I hate rapists as much as everyone else, so why is it constantly being portrayed as though I'm evil and deserve to be treated as a danger just because im a guy?
This sign exclusively implies that men cover for other men. I do not and would not cover for a rapist. Theres a valid point to be made about men and rape, and this sign completely misses it.
You realize the image implies men covering up for other men right?
We already know the truth about this guy. Just block him.
You didn't have to tell us you are a man, it was obvious. What you just did is provide a great example of why we need better education on gender based and sexual violence.
Firstly, there is almost a complete certainty that you know a rapist and may even be friendly with one. The overwhelming majority of sexual violence perpetrators are men and that violence is facilitated through the nuclear family model and social ostricization of men who challenge rape culture.
I have had multiple women in different generations of my family disclose sexual violence from men beloved by dozens of people who were none the wiser. I have sat at tables where men make jokes about getting women drunk on purpose like it doesn't reflect lived experiences only for other men to laugh along enthusiastically or nervously. I have been in classes where men discuss harassing women in the workplace without it being challenged. I could not name the amount of friends I've lost when I challenge them on their views, all of them have been men. Every one of those personal experiences reflects statistical data we have on sexual violence rates and rape culture reproduction.
You seem to have this fantasy that rapists are men who jump out of the darkness to prey on strangers, but they're your friends and family who prey on those you know. They do talk about it, all the time. Whether they're talking about the act of rape or why rape is okay, they talk about it. You cannot insulate yourself from this culture without abandoning the responsibility to challenge it.
When you say shit like, "not all men," you're admitting to an insecurity you have about the potential injustice of rape accusations and the association between manhood and sexual violence. Too bad, you're in it and have to choose to challenge it or continue to participate through inaction. The fear of false rape accusations is almost completely unfounded in a world where women face consequences for reporting and convictions of sexual assault are so difficult to get. False convictions are so statistically rare and acting like they arent shows that you value your comfort more than believing victims. Men are the vast majority of rapists and most women have experienced gender based or sexual violence at one point in their lives. As long as they exist in a culture where that violence will most likely come from men and most men do not challenge it, manhood will be associated with sexual violence. When you say that if a cartoon rapist should ever appear you'll give'em a wollop, you're subscribing to an imagination of sexual violence that obscures the reality of its frequency and potential vectors. You're telling the women around you that you do not care about what they experience and only think of rape as a vector for you to fulfill the masculine fantasy of violently punishing a rapist to protect the poor, helpless women.
This is all of course ignoring your fundamental misunderstanding of what rape is when you discuss it as though it's a form of sex. There is no discussion to be had about whether men kiss and tell about rape because rape is not sex. It is about violence and power. It happens at high rates in highly patriarchal societies exactly because of the brutal hierarchy of power that must be maintained for that patriarchy to exist.
I don't care if most men don't rape, most rapists are men and the greatest resistance we get to challenging rape culture is from men. If that bothers you, learn.
Congratulations! You just alienated a fuckton of potential allies with that speech. No, most of us don't feel any kind of group obligation. As a matter of fact, we are sick and tired of being told by society "fix this, fix that".
So now, most of us are a sort of zen nihilist. We give a shit, sometimes.
congrats on not reading their comment