1w ago

what are the grievances with the "male loneliness epidemic"?

[edit: I thank everyone for their comments and time. A lot of very interesting opinions and view points. Unfortunately also a lot of things that went away from the actual answer. So I'm thinking maybe this thread can be closed without deleting it?]

The more I hear people talk about it who aren't cis-het men, the more I hear criticism about the concept. But so far, I've only heard people say that it's stupid, that it's not a thing, that it's men's own fault etc. But I've yet to understand where that criticism comes from. I don't want to start a discussion on whether or not it's real or not. I just want to understand where the critics are coming from.

128 comments

Some is valid. Men aren't taught how to make and maintain emotionally open friendships, with men or women. It's seen as weak or weird to cry on front of your bros when you're sad. This leads to loneliness. This is real.
Some is not valid. Men claiming that they're not getting laid and it's women's fault is bullshit. Or that women have impossibly high standards and are gold diggers. It's nonsense.
The problem is that the "women hating incels" have coopted the term, and their garbage deserves to be mocked.
- The sheer number of men who suddenly have no support in their life because their relationship has ended, that soon struggle with suicidal thoughts should really point to the first thing you said. Men and women are socialized differently as children and this is one of the most common results when we reach adulthood. It will take an enormous shift in society and ingrained values to fix that
  That second point, yeah, women don't need to get married to survive now. My grandmother couldn't have her own bank account when she was a young adult, and banks would have laughed her out of town if she wanted a mortgage. My parents got married young because that was still kind of expected, especially in rural America. I haven't dated in years, because it's frustrating, and I have been able to, and lucky enough, to buy a home on my own finances. That's not high standards, it's just that I didn't need to get hitched to have financial stability
  
  The sheer number of men who suddenly have no support in their life because their relationship has ended
  Do men really not have any friends? I just moved to a new country and made like 5 close friends in the first few months, so that blows my mind in a sad way
When people have created a narrative that "white x y z men" are responsible for all the evil in the world (I'm exagerating, but you get my drift), it creates a very difficult situation when those people are facing some serious difficulties. The intellectually lazy thing to do in that case is to brush it off or minimize it, like in the ways you've described. And unfortunately, that's the route those same people will take, since identity politics are intellectually lazy (and lacking compassion, but that's another story).
The unfortunate part of it is that the right has taken advantage of that wide open flank, which is one main reasons we're in this current clusterfuck.
I'm a very fluid person. So I think I have great inside in the differences between genders and sexualities in loneliness.
A lot of it have to do with "be approached".
As a woman presenting person a get approached a lot, a lot of people I don't know want to talk with me. It's ridiculously easy to make new acquaintances and friends. Everyone wants to talk and be around you.
As a male presenting person I also get approached a lot when I'm in "gay spaces". Again it's impossible to be alone unless I voluntarily would want to.
Yes, these two have the handicap that a lot of approaches are "sex related" of by people wanting sex. But not all of them, among so much approaches there's always some that doesn't just want sex.
Then, as a male presenting person in not gay spaces and even more so in straight spaces. I don't get approached, never, at all. Zero people talk to me just because they want to be near me. If I want to meet somebody I always have to be the one initiating the approach.
In my experience this is the root of the issue. And the experience that most people complaining about "male loneliness" are talking about.
There are other type of loneliness. As a Queer I'm quite familiar with loneliness related to being different, and people literally hating you for what you are, or not accepting you. But that's a different thing. The male loneliness is that feeling of having the burden of all your relationships in your shoulders, knowing that if you don't go after people people won't ever go after you. And that can be devastating with time. Because your self worth get tanked, specially if you are introvert and have a hard time approaching people.
I suppose it won't end until it get normalized to approach cis men the same way it's normalized in the other situations I talked about. The reason of why people don't approach cis men as easy can be discussed, I get that there's a fear/danger factor in approaching a cis male, specially after being approached by so many menacing people in your life. But still, I do think the root of the issue is that. And there's also de commodity of knowing that you don't need to approach a cis man because some will approach to you regardless, so you don't even need to try. I'm the first guilty of it. I don't approach men either, I always wait for them to approach me, because I know they will, so why bother approaching? I suppose there's a great imbalance. Maybe if men would go into strike and refuse to approach people the balance would be restored, who knows.
- After reading most of these comments I'll have to say this comment resonated the most with me. It's exhausting to always be the one who needs to put in effort to talk to new people, and then you need to maintain it pretty much one sidedly as well, you end up just giving up on it and looking more for good friends to rely on than romantic things.
  I've heard from female friends that there are women also dealing with this so it's not a uniquely male thing, but social norms have sadly made it so and it really gets to you as a guy when you're not also being pursued by people. I've seen some nice clips tangential to this asking women when was the last time they bought flowers for a guy and some of them couldn't think of an instance.
  It's rough out there, and unless you're at the top of your game (mental health wise) it's a huge struggle, and with the economy as it is a lot of people people sadly are having a tough time dealing with it, but as you say women are usually better trained to work together on this stuff, whereas guys largely aren't and suffer alone as a consequence.
  I'm lucky to have some good male and female friends I can open up to, but I definitely feel like the exception on that.
- The male loneliness is that feeling of having the burden of all your relationships in your shoulders, knowing that if you don't go after people people won't ever go after you. And that can be devastating with time.
  I don't know if I've ever seen it put so succinctly. Maybe this isn't everything, but it is the root of the feeling for me. I'm constantly reaching out and checking in and it's more rare for the reverse to happen (though it's really important to notice when it does, which is something I'm trying to do more now).
- This is so incredibly accurate
- No, that's not it. You are seeing your experience (and the experience of people around you, all living in the same society at the same time) and extrapolate that to the "very human nature".
  Just go back 50 years and you have all these structures making it easier for men to keep contact. You had fraternities, churches, unions, clubs, associations and so on, all designed to pick up young men, give them structure, give them contacts and help them being part of something bigger. All that failed some time in the 70s or 80s with the individualism movement that valued individualism over every kind of group.
  If you go back even further, social structures were even stronger, with even things like arranged marriage being commonplace in many societies. In societies where that was common, there was no expectation at all that a young cis man would have to approach women at all.
  Don't extrapolate your experience to all of human-kind. It is almost never correct.
  
  Human nature is evolutionary.
  Never say never.
It has very large implications on society, many of which in contradiction with established progressive policy.
So it's easier to ridicule and/or downplay, than to apply compassion, and change course.
- I feel like that's a easy statement for people to upvote. But I don't really see an answer to the question. What is the course? Change what? And what established progressive policy?
  Not trying to antagonise you at all. Just trying to dig deeper
  
  From the feminist side, there's a lack of empathy towards men because "they did it to themselves" and from most other camps it's "men are supposed to be tough, stop being a pussy".
  
  Very much that. Didn’t answer you at all.
  To actually answer your question, people who don’t believe in the Male Loneliness Epidemic (MLE) think a lot of the “epidemic” is just shitty men complaining that nobody wants to be around them instead of doing any self-reflecting and changing their own shittiness. It’s tied to the incel movement (which is why you’re getting a lot of very snippy responses imo lol).
  Plus, a lot of the champions of the MLE are insufferable dudes who maybe are lonely not because of some societal epidemic but maybe because they’re just fucking assholes?
  Personally, I have no idea if there’s truly a MLE. I think a lot of it really could be asshole men online complaining that nobody likes them without recognizing that it’s their own actions causing their own loneliness. I also think it could just be the internet is ruining any sense of community and togetherness, and men are being vocal about it and tying this loss of community to men specifically, but idk, I feel like there isn’t some special issue of loneliness targeting men rn.
  
  But I don't really see an answer to the question
  That question being:
  I just want to understand where the critics are coming from.
  To repeat my answer: It comes from a lack of empathy, as it's easier to downplay a problem than to take it seriously.
  Whenever a statistic isn't fair towards a group, be it income, housing, ... corrective measures are being implemented. Unless that group is men, such as the homelessness, suicide, incarceration, lower education, ... Then it's seen as "normal" due to "toxic men".
As a cis het man, the "male loneliness epidemic" is more a collection of symptoms of multiple problems without one source.
Those who claim a single source usually point to women because they're a misogynist grifter looking chasing clout or to sell a scam course / supplement.
So without further ado, here's my non-academic (and probably ill-informed) reckon based on conversations from online and IRL, lived experiences, and perceived societal norms. Have your large pinch of salt on standby.
Both men and women have been socialised that the only emotions men show is anger or laughter. Men have been socialised that the only emotion they can express in front of other men is anger and laughter. This means the amount of emotional support men can use from their support network is limited, they're not practiced on how to deal with them, and either have to figure it out by themselves, be lucky enough to have a friend or partner whom they feel emotionally safe to express these feelings, can afford to seek professional help, laugh the problem off with self-depricating humour to repress the emotion, or turn it into anger usually as a result of succumbing to one of the aforementioned grifters.
Understandably, women have been socialised that if a man is showing emotion then that could turn into frustration and anger and so then they either have to risk taking on unpaid emotional labour or remove themselves from the situation. So sometimes you get this scenario where women want men to be more emotionally open but then recoil when they do because subconscious alarm bells start ringing that "you're in danger" because there's a decent chance that they could be.
Thankfully this is changing with younger generations, but it will take a generation or two.
Male support socialisation is centred around problem solving, not listening. Even if a guy has friends he can lean on emotionally, the conversations are usually focused around fixing the problem rather than providing a listening space and reassurance that those emotions are valid.
This is the main reason I pass off an "I'm fine" to friends and family because they'd try and suggest solutions to the problem rather than just listen.
Again, this is changing in society but these kinds of changes are slow.
Loss of third spaces. This affects everyone, not just men. But these third spaces where people can socialise without being forced to spend money are key for building communities. When people had disposable income or access to lines of credit it didn't matter that there was an expectation that you had to pay for parking, food, drink, ticket(s) for the activity. Now, that's less of an option for many people.
This hasn't improved and will likely only get worse as late stage capitalism squeezes out anything that is unable or refuses to make more and more profit per quarter.
The lack of third spaces has moved friendships, courtship, and dating online. Whilst this has meant many people have made connections (platonic and romantic) that would have gone missed, the big tech companies have realised that anger and loneliness are good for business.
The social networks get far more engagement from posts that make people angry and therefore their advertising revenues increase.
Similarly, the dating monopoly Match Group, has realised that having more men than women on the platform means these men will spend money on these platforms for a chance at matches. So they purposely profile men who are likely to pay for things like "super likes" etc. and do nothing to make the experience more pleasant for women.
This isn't anything new by the way, it's the same reason some clubs make guys pay on the door and women get in for free, and it's the same reason why there's more female sex workers than male sex workers.
Men are willing to pay many and women don't have to, but women have to put up with a lot of entitlement from the men who have paid for matches / to get into the club and be constantly fending off attention from men they don't wish to reciprocate the attention to.
Without third spaces for general socialising, the only place to interact with potential partners is paid and will therefore skew financially in favour of women at the cost of their peace-of-mind.
This is more of a personal sentiment but others might empathise: I don't want to feel like I'm harassing women.
I'm not cold approaching anyone when I go out because I don't want to interrupt their precious free time they get in between the grind of life. I don't want to interrupt them socialising with their friends or be creepy on the dancefloor by getting in their personal space, or even glancing over too much.
So I stay at arms length, avoid eye contact, and only approach or get close if I'm getting multiple very strong signals large enough to land an Airbus A380.
This is definitely just applies to me, but I have exceedingly low self-confidence, self-esteem, and low opinion of myself from a deep rooted depression. That's a straight-up non-starter for trying to be with anyone else because nobody, man or woman, likes an emotional anchor dragging their mood down. I'm working on it but without paying a lot of money for therapy (the NHS waiting list is a joke), I'm stuck trying to work it out myself (see points 1 & 2).
So until I'm fit for socialising in that way, I'm purposely isolating myself in that regard.
Oh and for added flavour, I don't want to be around watching society collapse as the world continues to burn not can I distract myself (or be ignorant enough) to not pay attention to it.
To be honest, right now my mind is telling just to wait for my mother to pass away then withdraw all my money, disappear abroad, burn through it in pure hedonism then off myself once the cash has run out. At least this way I can enjoy a shorter life rather than suffer a longer one.
- There is one source.
  I recommend reading nurturing our humanity. Primates have two observable social systems. And they both exist in all societies along a spectrum.
  Domination and partnership.
  The more domination based a society, the more everybody suffers. Including those higher in the social hierarchy.
  Working class men, they are in a strange place because they have hierarchical status based on gender but not based on economic class. This makes it difficult for them to find solidarity with women. And thus more lonely in a system of loneliness.
  Communists would blame capitalism of course, and they're not exactly wrong because capitalism is a domination-based system. Marx called this phenomena alienation.
  Feminists would blame patriarchy, and again they are not wrong it is a domination-based system.
  So on and so forth, but we can take a step back and look at ourselves as apes and see domination is the problem. The will to power.
  Buddhism calls this energy Mara, and would call the partnership energy Buddha nature.
  It's all the same thing, it's a strategy apes use to relate to each other and survive. Partnership is a better strategy. Assuming your goal is the health of society and the planet rather than personal gain.
I've seen three sides to it.
Side 1: "boo hoo nobody will fuck me because I don't think other people should have rights"
Side 2: not having strong friendships/relationships because our society is built around capitalism, cars, and social media (this obviously applies across genders, this side therefore is a generalized loneliness epidemic, not a male gendered one)
Side 3: men get socially punished for being vulnerable
In my mind only the second & third side is worth listening to.
- Side 2 has not actual relevance to the problem itself. These societal tropes are not why men are having a hard time finding women. It’s just a societal trope posing as an explanation.
  Side 3 is the only relevant issue. Men are constantly told they need to be more vulnerable or their masculinity is toxic, and yet when they express themselves vulnerably, they’re punished for it.
  The issue, as I see it, is that some advocates of the “toxic masculinity” narrative often don’t fully acknowledge the ways in which women can also reinforce those same patterns.
  A deeper concern is that many feminists present themselves as speaking on behalf of all women, when in reality most women don’t identify as feminists. As a result, what’s being represented is more of a particular set of progressive gender beliefs than the broader experiences of women in general.
  To be clear, I actually agree with many feminist perspectives overall. However, I find that the movement’s messaging is often counterproductive—it can come across as unnecessarily divisive and, at times, dismissive of men. Because of this, even when the arguments are largely valid, they struggle to gain wider support.
  
  Side 2 is very relevant. If you are lonely you get easily into very terrible sides of society and mindsets. I speak from experience. If you dont have a sense of belonging you also have no sense of self, but then come people that tell you to have a part in their group because of race, religion, nationality, or any other extremist reason.
Cis man here.
It's an issue. It comes in lots of different colors and flavors but it all stems from social issues.
There's lots of reasons, some men were never taught about social relationships, men tend to generally be less interested in social interaction thus giving them less experience, some men are ostracized when talking about their social struggles, and these are on top of preexisting environmental factors and preexisting mental conditions.
At this point it's important to say: it's not a contest for genders. Trans people have it hard, nb people have it hard women have it hard. It's just that this is one of the rare times men's struggles are not addressed properly.
I can tell you I probably have about 50 men in my life that I ko and wo are nice but if I had to talk to a man about my struggles socially, there are 2 men.
Now couple this with the fact 90% of men I had deeper conversations with told me they are struggling with depression and some of them having suicidal ideations, it is fair to assume we have a problem.
For me, the depression is always exacerbated by social isolation. It makes sense - not getting some feedback from other people can get you into crazy headspaces and there are thinking patterms that literally make you hurt yourself just to make it stop.
There's another aspect: we are social creatures and as soon as you don't get enough "social exposure" it's harder to learn social cues and "get the vibe", and other people notice. So the more you isolate, the harder preceding social interaction become and the harder it is, which in turn incentivizes isolating. A vicious cycle.
Now not everyone has these issues and I would never say that it's the most important issue in our current society but every time I hear suicide statistics by gender it really puts into perspective that we should get to know those people who we have failed.
One thing I also wanna address is the idea that "men are never taught how to socialize", because I think it implies a lot of things. First, I'm sure a lot of men are not, but a good number of men are. I was for example. It didn't help, but that was never the issue for me. Second, it implies men want to be taught. I spoke to a group of 2 men and 2 women with mental disabilities about if they ever considered complete social isolation. The men said yes and the women said no. I think this is really significant and can give insight into why this is affecting men more than other genders. I would infer from this that women always see the benefit in social interaction, and men pursue social interactions rather as a means to an end. This might be a stretch but this supported by other observations of friends and family.
This topic is really important and I hope it gets talked about more - for the benefit of everyone who wants to see people become happier. The men affected by loneliness, as well as the people who deal with them.
- men tend to generally be less interested in social interaction
  Is that the case, because they are men, or because they are afraid?
  Piggybacking on this comment: it's incredibly rare for men to get approached, it's incredibly common for women to get approached.
  Both of these situations have downsides, but right now we are talking about men, so let's ignore the downsides for women right now.
  If you are the one who has to approach somebody if you want to start up any kind of relationship (from casual acquaintance to friend, to romantic relationship), that means you will be on the receiving end of rejection, by definition. If you are in the "approaching" role, and you'd reject somebody, you just don't approach them. So by definition, it's quite rare when being approached that you are rejected by the person who approached you.
  So while women have to reject a lot of approaches they don't want, men get rejected quite often. A socially inept woman is a wallflower, a socially inept man is a creep.
  If you have been rejected too often (and maybe too harshly), this might easily turn into a sour grapes situation ("I can't do social interaction, so I don't want social interaction") due to fear of rejection.
  
  What you are raising is a very delicate subject but let's call it what it is: dating sucks. No matter your gender, there's hurdles, it's just really hard to find someone who's putting effort in. If you're a woman, it's because lots of people matching you will be absolute garbage. A friend showed me who was writing her and most of it was weird and creepy. If you're a man, it's hard to find someone who wants to write with you period. And any other genders deal with an equally limited dating pool.
  It makes sense, it's statistics, mathematically plausible, but damn it sucks. Unfortunately I think we are at the point where these conversation are bound to get eroded by inflammatory rhetoric. So these nuanced discussions are things for the future.
I can only suggest reading some of “The Way We Never Were”. It’s a look at society and how it actually was vs the manufactured versions people today use to weaponize the whitewashed past as some sort of ideal. It’s not a psychological book or a deep analysis of society at all, but one of the things that struck me about it that relate to social circles and how it applies to men in particular is the loss of “the village” and the damage “self reliance” - the isolation of the American Family Unit by making it the Family Vs The World - has done to society and the ability of people to form steady social groups outside of work. This, and the need to constantly change jobs to move ahead financially also keeps people on unsteady ground with relationships.
- Good, succinct explanation. There are some people dropping their life stories in this post, which should be a barometer for just how lonely everyone really is.
  But yes, this. It's all socio-economic. It's capitalism ruining our world by forcing us to serve the system instead of having a system that serves us. It has been like this a long time, but if unmanaged, allowed to grow and consolidate beyond just the interests of a few companies here and there and allowed to turn into an all-consuming monster that takes away our politics, our social lives, our hopes and dreams, you end up with a very miserable population.
  
  Yes, it’s “divide and conquer” on a grand scale. Because we don’t have groups we’re never strong enough to rebel.
- the need to constantly change jobs to move ahead financially also keeps people on unsteady ground with relationships.
  That's a great point.
I think its pretty hypocritical for anyone who isnt a male to have an opinion on the validity of an experience they cant possibly have unless they transitioned.
Its like me having an opinion on have a period.
- Particularly when so many trans men who have lived as women previously have come forward to validate how much more isolated men feel.
- I'll disagree a little here.
  My wife's had surgeries from men that know waaaaaay more about her period than she does.
  That being said, they went to school for a decade and have another decade of experience learning specifically about a topic. They aren't just some random business student that dropped out 2 weeks into semester one and writes their theses via comments.
  Small but important caveat. Otherwise 100% agreed. I have no ideas on periods because I'm not a woman or a Dr.
  
  Yeah I also disagreed, I've read some very compassionate takes on men's situation written by academic feminists.
  Bell hooks the will to change for example. Women can be experts on gender, and how systems of domination effect everyone. Men included.
- Yet, men have dictated women’s bodies for centuries. Nah, you can shove that view up your ass.
  
  I reject your opinion. Men shouldn't be dictating women's bodies and women shouldn't be dismissing men's feelings. Two wrongs, etc etc, I shouldn't have to explain this to an adult.
  
  "MEN IN THE PAST DID BAD, SO ALL MEN FOREVER GUILTY"
  What a well reasoned argument.
  
  And that gives them a higher position?
  Taking your argumentation into another context but keeping the same intention: europeans had colonialised africa for over 100 years, means they cant critisise the africans nations politics?
  "X did z to y so y can talk freely about matters that affect only X but x not about y"
- I'm more of a comma or interrobang kind of guy‽
  
  And yet, your sentence ends with...
- On the other hand, belle hooks', The Will to Change, is one of the most compassionate and understanding takes on the subject.
  So she has an opinion on the validity of the experience, and it is that capitalism and patriarchy is alienating for men, just like it is for others. Especially working class men.
  Nurturing Our Humanity, co-written by a female author, uses system science and primatology to validate what men experience in domination based societies.
  I know your point was more long the lines of critics shouldn't criticize things that they don't understand, but there are a lot of feminists that do understand and have an informed opinion, because they study how these systems of domination affect everyone, not just women.
Most of the criticism of it I've seen is about how the concept's been warped to mean women aren't putting out enough for specific men. Other people will also point out that modern society is isolating in general. People who aren't men who are experiencing loneliness might have some skepticism about the idea it's a man specific issue.
There's also some wariness because topics about issues men face can translate for some men into a violent rage towards women. As seen with the involuntarily celibate movement.
People of all types can take genuine grievances and find a target to take it out on. Like income inequality translating to hatred of immigrants. And violence towards them. When you're the mistaken target of those grievances, it can be simplest to want to get away from the conversation unless the person starting it is clear they aren't targeting you.
Those are my guesses as to why people are skeptical.
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1263527043 Some discussion in here about the topic, but also criticisms of the topic.
https://trinitonian.com/2025/02/14/unpacking-the-myth-of-the-male-loneliness-epidemic/ This opinion article criticizes how influencers drive the conversation, to its detriment.
https://www.fridaythings.com/recent-posts/male-lonliness-crisis-incel-men-friendship-mental-health This person brings up the idea that women are wary of the idea because it seems like they'll be expected to individually solve it regardless of their own wants and needs.
- I had to scroll too far to find this answer.
  Most of the criticism of it I've seen is about how the concept's been warped to mean women aren't putting out enough for specific men.
  this is it in a nutshell. Men clearly experience loneliness, what's problematic is the way "male loneliness" has been weaponized against women, as if it's not a byproduct of patriarchy but actually a result of women's neglect (or worse, an insidious assumption that women have an obligation to date men because they are lonely).
- Thanks! There's not that many answers here to my question, just a lot of comments on the thing itself not about the criticism. So thanks for those sources.
  
  It's difficult to discuss this issue, because loneliness is so personal. This all is.
  I'm glad you asked the question and are trying to genuinely understand where critics are coming from. All of this (like, society) is a mess and we've all been hurt and it makes doing better a struggle because, how do you see anything past the pain from your own wounds?
  When I was very young, my father would hit me for crying, so when I was a little older, hearing that little boys weren't supposed to cry just made me go "me neither." But (without justifying my father) understanding that he did it because society and his own parents fucked him up on this issue, and his parents were fucked up by their parents, makes it possible to envision a way things could be different.
  Not everyone gets past that hurt, though. Like a young man abused by his mother dismissing the idea of misogyny. The statistics are just statistics. The memories of that pain are visceral and real.
Two criticisms that come to mind are:
the cause of the epidemic is the patriarchy, therefore it's men's own fault, i.e. the rigid gender roles and "man up attitude" are within the power of individual men to overcome and they just need to um... man up and break down those barriers.
the cause of the epidemic is men trying to cling to the benefits they would have otherwise under the patriarchy and it's a reaction to non-men having more status and freedom.
(Before you hit reply please remember OP didn't ask for an discussion on if these are real or correct - just what some of the criticisms are. I'm not saying I buy into either of them.)
I think a lot of it comes from the fact that in incel spaces, it's a lot of grievance and blame by men who were raised believing the world owed them certain things. And now they're finding out that it's really hard so rather than look inward at how they can be better and work within the circumstances they're in, they blame wokeism and women's empowerment for denying them their entitlement.
Dark Brandon on youtube has been doing an awesome series on incels that's definitely worth watching. I recommend this video not just for anyone interested in incel culture, but literally anyone interested in WTF has happened to the world in the last 40 years - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBAX4Wi1iNM&list=WL&index=16
- Imo the whole incel thing is a symptom, not the cause. Many men feel lonely, lost, and useless in today's society. Without a proper support network and raised to hide away our emotions, many of us don't have the proper tools to tackle this monster. Then, conveniently, there are these people who tell you that none of it is your fault. That it's not you who needs to change or improve yourself, but society that went wrong. That it's the "woke people" who paint you as a villain, that it's the women who deny you the "right" to a relationship .
  Many men are looking for answers. And the whole incel alt-right pipeline gives easy answers. It blames everyone else. And when you're already in a dark place, tired and lost, it can be hard to resist. Not that I want to excuse incels in any way, they're dangerous and we have every right to vilify them. But imo they're not the cause, just a symptom of the broader issue. And to prevent more incels from appearing, I think it's time they men's mental health is taken a bit more seriously. Society needs to adapt, starting from how boys are raised.
Can we please leave gender war slop back at the old site please?
As a male who grew up around males, men are men’s worst enemy.
- In a greater context sure, but no, men are the reason.
Cis men have been, and mostly continue to be, the most privileged group in western society. So it’s easy to dismiss anything negative that affects them.
A lot of people can't see things from any perspective beyond their own limited worldview. If they don't experience a problem, it doesn't exist or it's not that bad and everyone should focus on their problems instead or if they are experiencing something it must be happening to everyone. I think this is causing a lot of the conflict around this issue. There is also the fact that a lot of the men complaining about this issue come at it not so much as "I'm lonely" but as "I'm not getting laid". Which loses them a lot of sympathy.
Man Carrying Thing has a sketch on male loneliness epidemic. Someone tries explaining social issues to a guy who doesn't care about anyone but himself but starts to listen when he hears the word "male" added to them. Male lonliness, male climate change, male war. The guy now cares deeply about these social issues (because they affect him) except he thinks all the problems are caused by women not sleeping with him.
- "male climate change"?
  Is that what you call it when you shrink up because it's cold?
Who says this? I am not a cis-het man and have not heard the criticism. I thought it was a known thing? Are you literally hearing it doesn't exist, or is it more like they need to suck it up and/or that they are losers that need to go outside?
If it's the second, that's sexism. That's where it comes from. Illogical ideas about men. Believe it or not, we have not overcome that yet. People have very twisted ideas about how men and women should behave and feel.
im one of those people who does not know what cis-het means? As far as I can tell cis means typical or normal or such.
- Cis effectively means not-transgender, so born as exacly the same gender you identify as. 'Het' then means heterosexual, making cis-het someone who is either completely male and into women or completely female and into men.
  
  I have definitely heard cis in terms of cognition so I don't think its specific to sexuality.
- Cis means same as opposed to trans which means opposite it’s commonly used to describe the shape of molecules in chemistry but is also used to say if a persons birth sex is the same (cis) or different (trans) then their gender
  Het is short for hetero which means different vs homo which means the same so if you had homogenized milk it’s all uniform and the same vs a heterogenous mixture which would have some areas of extra fat. Those are used as hetero and homo sexual where a homosexual likes people of the same sex and heterosexuals like people of the opposite sex
  So a cis het male is a dude whose not trans who likes banging chicks
  
  Yeah I think its just im not in the group that uses the latin term and expects it to have gender meaning. I swear I have heard it used in terms of cognitive type. Anyway Im good in terms of this conversation and will get use to the lingo over time.
I think it has to do with the death of 3rd spaces which used to be an outlet for socialization. But as a man, I'm also not lonely. I have friends and acquaintances and I get to go outside sometimes.
Men, by and large, create toxicity within their own circles. Male culture has a lot of issues and a lot of unrealistic expectations are put in men in US society. Some external, but the majority come from inside. The whole alpha male culture bullshit that permeantes it. There's a lot, and I mean a LOT of good that can come from healthy male culture. But right now it's like men have a branding issue where the loudest among them are also the worst (the Andrew Tates of the world).
- I'd say there's some unavoidable bias there. If we judge the dominant masculine culture by the degree to which people emphasize masculinity then of course the loud ultra masculine people will seem like the representation.
  Lots of men out there just being men
"It's stupid, it's not a thing, it's men's own fault"
So as someone who recently learned my gender identity is demiguy, I can say it is and isn't a thing.
Masculinity as a whole is a toxic concept in my book. A man is stoic. A man is strong, capable, and will put up or shut up. A man is attractive if he looks strong, acts strong, drives strong trucks, enjoys strength based sports, is emotionally strong, and essentially a lifelong warrior. A man can do anything he needs to by himself. A man can change if he needs to. A man has rough hands. A man dresses prepared. A man does not have too much emotional intimacy. A man is vulnerable only to the extent that he doesn't appear weak.
All of those statements apply to the criticisms. It is stupid. Men aren't socializing with hardly anyone. It's hard to when you have to do the mentioned statements. It is a thing. Men do not have friends to call and shoot the shit with. Men are annoying when we text too much. Sharing real feelings is weakness. It is men's own fault. It's the nature of the characteristics of manliness.
The unfortunate side effect is that Incels have coopted it to defend their misogyny, and women who all have significant reason to be angry at this see it as terribly offensive.
To me? Yeah. I'm lonely. But it's mostly because I didn't understand who I was, and I didn't have groups to fit in with. I like wearing tailored suits, but I love having soft hands. I like lighter clothing, cuddling, playing silly games with children, lavender and vanilla scented candles and candle lit baths.
But men can't share any of that with each other even if they identify as men. Women are the only link to "softness" they experience. This leads to a compounding problem. Men need to accept that they will be alone unless they can connect on something OTHER than STRENGTH.
I have no idea but thought I'd throw out that, as a 58yr old cis white guy I've never been lonely in my life, i have literally no idea what that's like and don't get involved in hypotheses about it all because I have nothing to bring to the debate. I do find human behaviour interesting (and mostly bizzare) though.
The more time I spend with people the more I crave being alone but that's a different thing.
I now live on the edge of a tiny village in the middle of no where Australia and lived in a small cottage off grid in the bush for 10 years previously bit alos loved in an apartment in the sky in a largish city.
One thing I noticed, I found the car free existence ina city bought me into contact with people all the time, even walking you'd see people people and say hello. Stop at a crossing and have a small conversation occasionally etc. i even said hello to women and was never called a pervert ;)
I think part of it also depends on were you live. Just as a personal experience I live in a very rural part of northern Nevada, I’m born a raised here. The population is about 4k and honestly I would say 90% of the population are hardcore conservatives. Even as a kid I knew that I didn’t fit in with anyone else. I would usually just keep to myself all throughout school and even now as a 42 year old man I barely speak to anyone. It is lonely but the alternative is a no go for me especially now with politics being such a big part of peoples identity.
I kind of assume it's the juxtaposition of "I as a white man have immense social privilege" with "I can't get anyone to play with me". Like, other people are worried about being abducted on the street and you're sad you can't play basketball with your bros?
The sadness of loneliness can be real but in contrast to other things it can feel like it needs to be triaged into a lower priority. And then some men lose their shit over that, which makes people take them less seriously.
Oh my god STOP WITH THE GENDER DEBATES
Ok now that I know my terms I am apparently a cis-het man and don't feel this and don't know anyone who does so its a bit hard to know how or why it may be happening. I am older though so is this possibly more prevalent in an age group? Although also im an introvert so don't need all that much people interaction to not feel lonely.
- Robert Putnam wrote an influential essay called "Bowling Alone" about the weakening social institutions in American society, and the accompanying rise in loneliness. It was published in 1995 and eventually adapted into a full length book published in 2000.
  It's not new. But the trend lines that could be seen in the 90's have only gotten worse, as we've lost or weakened many of the social institutions that used to keep us grounded in our communities.
(Removed by creator)

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