these folks sure are quiet these days
these folks sure are quiet these days
i can't even guess as to why they went quiet. not one guess at all. we will never know.
edit: well they're not quiet now once they get called out
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It's so weird. Gaza is extremely important and deserving of the attention. It's genocide, and it's horrific. But is no one else important? Because we can't save Gaza immediately, it's really better to set outselevs on fire so we can burn together? Like, real talk, Harris will be fine. Biden will be fine. It's our friends and neighbors who are going to be deported, harassed, laid off, homeless and scared for a minimum of four years.
I wouldn't say they're gone though. I've been down voted, told "my kind/type" are all talk, or that I'm okay with murder, I voted for genocide, the usual. But I couldn't sit and do nothing.
But I guess this is what they wanted. The dems have been taught a lesson, we're moving headfirst into a dictatorship, and Gaza is no safer, but their conscious is clear, somehow.
Out of curiosity, what wouldn't you be willing to compromise on? If I had a party wanting to kill your mom and dad and another who just wants to kill your dad, would you make that compromise?
Ummm....yes! Of course I would make that compromise! If I have a choice between they both die or one dies, of course I'm taking the choice where one lives!
What wouldn't I be willing to compromise on? Nothing. If I have a choice between bad and worse, I'm taking bad, what kind of lunatic would intentionally choose worse?
If I have a choice between bad and worse, I’m taking bad, what kind of lunatic would intentionally choose worse?
The vast majority of people would choose worse, at least in some situations.
Philosopher Bernard Williams proposed this thought experiment: suppose someone has rounded up a group of 20 innocent people, and says that he will kill all of them, unless you agree to kill one, in which case he'll let the rest go. Act Utilitarianism would suggest that it is not only morally permissible, but morally obligatory to comply, which Williams saw as absurd. As an addendum, suppose the person then orders you to round up another 20 people so he can repeat the experiment with someone else, and if you don't, he'll have his men kill 40 instead. Congratulations, your "lesser-evilist" ideology now has you working for a psychopath and recruiting more people to work for him too.
Even the trolley problem, which liberals love to trot out to justify their positions, is not nearly as clear cut as they try to pretend it is. A follow up to the trolley problem is, is it ethical to kill an innocent person in order to harvest their organs in order to give five people lifesaving transplants? The overwhelming majority of people say no.
Act Utilitarianism is something that seems intuitive at first glance, but is very difficult to actually defend under scrutiny, and there are many, many alternative moral frameworks that reject its assumptions and conclusions. Liberals don't seem to realize that this framework they treat as absolute and objective - that you would have to be a "lunatic" to reject - is actually a specific ideology, and one that's not particularly popular or robust.
The trolley problem is clearly not clear cut at all, that's what makes it interesting. This, of course, is lost on the Dunning-Kruger crowd.
Contrived explanations couched in self indulgent and imperious insults, just like the Biden/Harris campaign. And you lot wonder why so many voters didnt bother to get off the couch.
You've learned less than nothing and are even worse now than before. I see a lot of calls to move the party rightward, cloaked in a very vague rejection of "wokeness". And you expect to win any election like this? Out-republicanning the republicans has been tried so many times by the liberals and its never worked. And yet you lot keep running the same play every time.
I guess I should be happy you make the case for a progressive party easier, but damn, its disappointing that we even need to do it.
I think you're replying to the wrong comment.
Well, add another layer of complexity. The lesser of two evil guy wants to be picked. But instead of offering anything, he really wants to kill one of your parents and banks on your choice. He could of guaranteed getting picked by saying he'd kill none of your parents. But he does wanna kill one of them and gambled on you picking the lesser evil.
Didn't happen, and you think it's somehow the person making the impossible choice wrongly than the ones making the choices.
Thank you for your time.
There's no need for extra complexity, both of your parents are getting killed now.
And heres the thing. In the moment, I can wish we could make that "lesser evil" choice. It sucks, but i voted kamela myself. But now that it has failed, you would rather blame the people who couldn't bring themselves to make that difficult decision instead of the campaign for not being fucking evil, even if lesser. Like, do you get where my frustration comes from? I'm on here arguing with a liberal about how its actually the fault of random leftists and people unable to make that impossible decision when we both acknowledge the campaign actively ran on "I'm still gonna do a genocide, cant stop me" and you think thats just cool?
Once again, mid vote I can get your stance. But it didnt work! What are you doing now? What are you hoping to gain by swinging on people like me who are just BEGGING YOU to support a democratic party that'll say "no evil" next time instead of "Wittle bit of evil". Seriously? Are you just pissed beyond any actual care for the people who are about to be targeted by this regime? You wouldn't rather talk with people like me on ways to resist and damage the ability for this regime to do the evil we both hate?
Once again. I can get your frustration, but from my perspective you are still trying to juice a campaign strategy that failed. It didnt work. Lesser evil DID NOT WORK. WHY DO YOU KEEP WANTING TO DEFEND SOMETHING THAT DIDNT DO THE ONE THING IT WAS SUPPOSED TO. WHY DONT YOU WANNA TRY SOMETHING NEW?!?!
Are you saying that Biden is more progressive then Harris? Because he won that campaign virtually the same way.
Covid. Do you want me to elaborate?
However you cut it it's one parent or two. One parent is always better than two.
Except it didn't work. Polled the entire American population and was found that it don't work. Would you like to try that again next election or do something different this time? Cause right now you seem like you reeeeeeally wanna try the same thing again next time. Hell, throw some extra bacon on the grill. You gonna sacrifice trans people next? Gay marriage? Cmon bubby. What's the next sacrifice and I am curious when you pick one that includes you
You guys have sacrificed trans people and probably gay marriage by electing Trump. Its a stupid argument when those things are literally already under attack by the guy you let win.
You guys already have picked one that includes all of you. An anti vaccer in charge of your health.
Things are 100% going to be worse for Gaza under Trump. You didn't win anything by electing him.
You guys fucked it so bad it's literally unbelievable. You got tricked by the don't vote against trump propaganda campaign and can't even see it.
Assuming things is bad for conversation like this so let me be clear that I voted Kamala
So take all your insults and pack it back up and try again. My argument is that it is ultimately kamalas fault for not giving the left anything to vote for. I wish we could have lesser eviled here but ultimately it's the Dems fault for choosing to be a little evil when they could of easily of chosen no evil and won.
I blame the organization and organizers of the campaign for thinking they could gamble on this by remaining pro genocide and failing.
I blame the organization who was told clearer than any election that people will not vote for them on this one issue, concede or lose, and they as the decision makers chose lose
please consider editing the personal attacks out of this comment so the mods don’t remove it. :) your perspective is important and i don’t want it silenced for breaking rule 1
I felt against it when writing it and I appreciate you being the voice to back me off the angry ledge. I will remove it.
I don't disagree with that. And they were absolute shit. But blame who you want the world now has 4 years of trump to deal with.
My argument is if the left didn't want her electing Trump is an absolutely ridiculous response.
You vote now and protest later.
However you cut it it’s one parent or two. One parent is always better than two.
I thought you were joking but from the pattern of your other comments I see you actually beleive this. How about a third option, when someone threatens to kill your parents, you kill them instead of making a deal with them on who they murder? Did you even think about that possibility?
Seems like you choose to put yourself in a trolley problem, rather than life actually putting you in one.
There was no third option. If you missed it this was an analogy for the election.
You are correct that it was an analogy for the election, but the point the analogy is trying to illustrate is precisely that if you actually and for real were faced with this situation and decision (assuming you love your parents, if not please substitute for the 2 living beings you love the most), that you would reject the decision and take any number of alternative actions that are available to you before allowing a loved one to be killed. Hell, a bunch of people would fight to the death in a situation like this.
The previous realization would then illustrate the hypocrisy behind expecting people to behave in a strictly utilitarian sense when you yourself would not when it involves your loved ones.
Except there were literally only two outcomes in the election. There were literally no alternative outcomes.
This was completely bound and a gun to your head. Absolutely no other possible outcome. Choose one option or both die anyway.
America chose both dying anyway.
I know you see it as saving a parent, because for whatever contrived reason you cant save both, but letting one of your parents die instead of fighting for whats right is actually a pretty decent metaphor for voting for Harris.
Where your metaphor falls apart though is that Harris could have chosen to break with bad policies and forge her own way forward on the genocide and the economy, and she just didnt bother. No one ever had to die, and she didnt need to lose. All she had to do was try to do the right thing and be worthy of the office, and she didnt do that. So here we all are.
It's literally the analogy put forward by someone else that I was responding to.
Moving the goal posts and changing the question to invalidate my answer is pointless.
However you look at it she was better than trump. You've cut off your nose to spite your face and indeed here we all are.
You’ve cut off your nose to spite your face and indeed here we all are.
Except its not a game of winning the popular vote is it. And I'm in a bright blue state, so my vote basically didnt matter at all. It was a contest of winning the swing states.
And was it the voters who owned the campaign choices or was it harris? There should be accountability for making campaign choices. Are you claiming Harris had no choices in how she ran her campaign?
Seems to me your are using abuser logic.
Where this analogy falls apart is in the implicit assumption that this is just a one-off situation. (I mean, most people only have two parents.)
What happens when it's an iterative phenomenon? (Politics is an ongoing thing.) Then, the situation in the analogy turns into the classic "negotiating with terrorists" scenario. The received wisdom is that one should never negotiate with terrorists, because once they learn that terrorism works they'll do it again.
Maybe make it cousins. Do you choose the option whereby two cousins die, or just one. What if choosing just one now increases the danger of more dying later?
Yep, thats one of the classic criticism of utilitarian philosophy: it doesnt take into consideration if the actions being evaluated are evil or not. From a certain point of view I'm sure killing anyone can be made to be a good trade compared to some other greater evil, but you're supposed to just line up behind defeating evil and be done with it. Utilitarianism is taught almost solely to be mocked in philosophy class, same as solopsism.
Ironically it was only the college educated who are likely tro be exposed to these ideas, and they are primarily on the utilitarian side of the argument this time.
Makes no sense. I think they just werent paying attention in philo 101. They missed out on ethics 301 as well.
Good comment, because this was the choice some were asked to make, to degrees ranging from similar to almost literally.
As an educated citizen I openly acknowledge voter abstention or voting Republican is irresponsible in carrying out my responsibility to protect my neighbor.
However I also recognize the incredibly painful and emotionally choking situation some were put in, with no messaging of empathy from either side. I will never blame those people more than I blame the party which failed them. Distribute it 51%/49% even, I don’t care. I’m just sick of the finger pointing and shit slinging against a tiny minority who bore no impact on the election outcome in the first place.
This dialogue, which OP is capitulating to, is perfect fascist propaganda. Find an insignificantly tiny out group, which conveniently happens to be majority Arab-American, and blame them for the violence while corporate interests and ever more racist border politics go unspoken.
Exactly. It sounds rhetorical, silly and a stupid straw man of sorts. But that's because people don't understand there were people who had to actually make such decisions.
I agree, I voted Kamala Harris and I do wish we could all bite that bullet but I understand that failure to do so is on the campaign who made a gamble that they could never lose voters in a lesser evil campaign. They were wrong. Instead of criticizing that campaign many here want to fight the same people they claim to want to protect. They are turning on immigrants, Muslims, and queer folk and throwing blame at the people they themselves believe they need to win.
I would say "funny strategy" but there is no strategy here. It's online liberals who don't understand what happened and are upset and angry. They just came out of a campaign in which they spent so much of their time justifying the lesser of two evils that they can't even acknowledge that it didn't work and it's the campaigns fault.
My hope is maybe they can stop arguing with us before the concentration camps come up.
Well fucking said, and pretty disgusting how upvoted the post is.
Perhaps a better, real-world example is that this moral calculus says that the Democrats should abandon trans people and trans issues. The logic is inescapable: Trans issues turn away a lot of voters, and it's a really strong talking point for the other party. If they win, the Democrats could protect the LGB community, and women's rights.
Surely it's better to protect the LGB community and women's rights, but not trans people, than to protect none of them, right?
(NB: This is rhetorical. I don't believe it.)
It's not rhetorical. It's literally currently being proposed as a strategy by the "Harris went too woke" crowd.
Oh Lord... 😔
Who will they tip over the side next?
whomever they think they can blame and get away with it.
(NB: This is rhetorical. I don’t believe it.)
Glad you said this because there’s literally someone else in this very comment section arguing exactly this. Sick to my stomach.
Exactly. When every national poll shows things like trans rights are more nationally popular, because they want to chase the republican vote so bad than to concede anything to their leftist base.
well the correct answer is actually a little bit subversive, instead of supporting trans people directly, you just subtly reinforce ideas of support for queer people broadly. And then actually do that.
the right will most likely still make shit up, but at least now it's not clear as day.
The centrists would throw in killing the family dog along with the dad and call it a good bipartisan deal.
It's our friends and neighbors who are going to be deported, harassed, laid off, homeless and scared for a minimum of four years.
Already happening under biden. 🙄
I mean yes that's true... but we already know the pattern, Trump is going to quintuple the pace and extremeness of it. The next democrat to win (if one ever does again), will continue the status quo set by the previous republican, possibly slightly reduce the acceleration of it (while still allowing it to accelerate).
And you will vote blue no matter who, continuing the cycle.
Let this country fucking burn. Let the boomers who voted this fraud in lose their social security and Medicare. They’ll learn.
It’s unlikely we’re making it 2030 between climate change and the risk of nukes.
honestly my vote doesn't matter anyway. Claudia De La Cruz got .1% of my states vote.. It was already known before it started that trump was going to win by a double digit percentage.
I appreciate the level headed take.
Because we can’t save Gaza immediately
What do you mean by this? That the president can't or that voters can't because their choice is voting genocide or worse genocide?
The dems have been taught a lesson
Based on the response of the media, and elected democrats, no they haven't lol. They're blaming the left.
but their conscious is clear, somehow
I think this is reductive and does not acknowledge why many people did not vote democrat.
What do you mean by this? That the president can't or that voters can't because their choice is voting genocide or worse genocide?
In my opinion, the genocide was not anywhere on the ballet. There was no feasible choice. I don't think we had a choice to save Gaza immediately on 11/5. I'd rather fight for people in our regular shit then have to fight for people in whatever hell Trump is planning.
Based on the response of the media, and elected democrats, no they haven't lol. They're blaming the left.
Maybe we're not seeing the same articles? Don't get me wrong, I do see people blaming leftist/liberals/Russian bots, etc. But the I've seen posts and articles about how the dems fail the working class and looking over why they were abandoned. Sanders has been very vocal about the dems failure, and he's not the only one. Not saying there's no blame on the campaign, I've just seen both 🤷🏿♀️
I think this is reductive and does not acknowledge why many people did not vote democrat.
I don't think so. I didn't see this election as "dems VS rep." I saw this as a vote to stop facisim. There was no vote I could make that day that was going to stop the genocide in it's tracks. I didn't believe that not voting was going to make anything easier. I see tons of, "Well, what will your compromise on? How many people can be killed before you say enough is enough?" I don't feel like I compromised, because that makes it seem like I had a say, at least by 11/5. I wasn't like, "okay, I'll allow genocide if they keep abortion rights." It was, "One person is asking for a ceasefire, but not making a clear statement against the genocide and continues to say she'll continue what Biden is doing," and "One person has told me he will give Israel the okay to turn Gaza into a crater, as well as make any future progress or change exponentially more difficult, and will harm anyone he doesn't like." Why would I pick the latter? The kid who can't afford lunch didn't put me in this position, nor did the teenager bleeding in the parking lot. It feels like they were so focused on teaching the Dems a lesson that they forgot the consequences won't affect the politicians, it'll affect us. All of us, whether we like it or not.
I feel more helpless about Gaza then I did before the election. The recent meetings in my area have been down right depressing because we know it's just going to be so much harder. And it's upsetting that it feels like it didn't have to.
I guess we could start saying to those people “I guess you hate LGBT” and “you’re complicit with refugees being deported” and “good job putting the last nail in the coffin of reproductive rights”. I mean, somehow they couldn’t say shit about those issues, just “OMG JOR BIDEN GENOCIDE” and ignored that letting Trump take office would be worse for Palestine as well as terrible about the aforementioned issues. Odd.
We didn't ignore those issues child. They were directly related to gaza. A willingness to throw palestinians under the genocide steam roller is the same as the willingness to throw LGBT+, etc.
Hell harris couldn't even speak plainly about transgender medical care. The only reason she didn't do it is because she thought that would lose her the election where the Palestinians wouldn't.
“Child”, ha. Nice move to condescension immediately.
Anyway, you’re STILL ignoring that Trump is going to be at best just as bad about Palestine and likely worse. So, good job, you’re really helping Palestine by getting someone even worse elected. I’ve been trying to explain this for like 10 months now and it sure has been a waste of time.
As far as LGBT issues, likewise Trump is 100% guaranteed to be much worse. So, your speculation about Harris doesn’t hold up there either. Guaranteed worse vs maybe not whole hearted support? Let’s go for guaranteed worse, yeah!