Indistinguishable!

I'd like to take a moment to thank the enlightened centrists in here for tripping over themselves to prove the point. Bravo.

Wow, people aren't actually living walking, walking, strawman characters and they're speaking up about it. eNliGHteNeD cEnTRisT
- He said, about the people making the supposed strawman a real boy 😂
- lol thank you for your service.
- Dude, what's the point? Do you think you can convince a disingenuous memer that the far left isn't the social democrats? He's already painted you as the soyjack so he has won. The pigeon's knocked over the pieces and shit on the board, you can't checkmate that. It's like arguing with a teenager on Discord, you can't beat their collection of 17 second videos designed to make it look like you're dumb without actually saying why.

In fairness, the meme doesn't work all that well in Europe. The "far left" statement is defines centre-left parties here; far left is usually about enforced wealth and income sharing, even if it means imprisoning or mass killings. See Marxist collectivisation efforts, for example.

I wrote a whole 3 paragraph reply to this, but it crashed and now I'm too lazy to write it again.
But yes, this. "Everyone getting UBI and universal healthcare" is not far left. Far left is firebombing pharmaceutical companies or forceable seizure of private property to distribute amongst others, or enforced working arrangements to bring about equality.
What most Americans on Lemmy call "far left", I'd call "basic respect for your fellow man and the compassion to put others before yourself".
- We have an Overton window problem here
- Which is why it's so crazy that people in America try the enlightened centrist thing. Our far left is center in many other countries.
- Tis the bane of my existence that people in the America's tar socialism and communism with the same brush ignoring their own history of market socialist policy creating long periods of stability. That McCarthism is one hell of a drug and they overdosing.
- There are plenty of far left people on here, if violent rhetoric is a key indicator. E.g., run into more than a handful of people that clearly assume most white people are white devils that genocide people of color in their spare time and that need to die, who also use the language of social leftism when they’re not spewing hate.
  Besides the Overton Window shifting to the right in the US, another problem is defining what is “left”. Does left mean open borders, or does it mean not using migrants as political pawns? Does left mean enforcing secularism in the public sphere, or does it mean bending over backwards with tolerance toward exclusivist minority religious groups who would not return the favor if they gained power? (Does it mean I have to learn how to uptalk and entirely repress myself to the point where I don’t even know what “me” is anymore and only a select few can take me seriously?)
- People who push UBI dont understand how economy and incentives work. Here in our EU country, we have universal healthcare and there is also some sort of UBI for a period of time if you were working previously, but lost your job or something. And its definitely not the saving grace people from US picturing it to be...
  The public healtcare here is in rumbles and pre-colapse, you either wait for some essential treatments up to a week or you will pay up and go to a private ambulance anyway... The treatment you get are also basically on the bare necessary level. Most hospitals are buildings from soviet era, with minimal up-keeping and modernization... Many of those workers who work in state hospitals are under payed and overworked, so many of the younger ones just get up and go somewhere abroad where they are payed better for the same job. We have the most doctors post retirement age (65) still working (probably oldest average age in the whole world), due to qualified workers shortage, as they mostly leave. And thats the not so nice real picture, of what many of you from US want to implement.
  Sure, first it will be nice and great to have free health care, but basically in every country they have it, the service quality slowly getting worse over the decades, as there is no incentive to modernize those hospitals that much, when its free after all, and you pay for it anyway, only that you pay for it with your taxes, so even the option to vote/choose with your wallet is removed from you...
When I saw any self-described leftist call for that level of violence, my gut instinct was that they're a right wing neo-Nazi type trying to make leftists look bad.
I'm starting to really dislike the "left vs right" paradigm, because it's so not enough to describe the variety of positions people hold, and it tends to lead into "us vs them" ways of thinking that are characteristic of fascism anyway.
About which centre-left parties in which countries are you thinking?
- Here in Ireland, the Social Democrats. I'd throw Sinn Féin into the same category, but they are more populists than a genuine centre left party. SocDems in other countries in general tend to be the centre-left party that fits the "we want to provide for everyone's basic needs" definition.
So the difference between center left and far left is the approach, not the goal?
- I'm no political scientist, but I think you are somewhat correct there. The end goal seems to be the old phrase, "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." The approach differs, though: cenrte-left is focusing on the later part of the sentence, so each according to his needs. Far-left focuses on the first part, from each according to his ability.
  In practice, this translated to "We'll force to work your arse off, and we'll make it illegal for you to keep any merit-based reward for your labour" in the former Eastern Bloc countries. I'm familiar with this, as I grew up in one of those countries. It was illegal to be unemployed, and if you were skilled in any way, you could bet that you'd work long hours for miserable pay, because you've had the "ability".

- "Broadly in support of trans people" but also forcing us to use changing rooms and toilets that also often put us in danger and lead many of us to be able to spend less time in public because the minute we need to pee someone is very likely going to yell at us, smack us (usually women) or stalk us to a secondary location (usually men) because people feel empowered to treat us all like perverts and make our safety based decisions of what the path of least resistance a question a matter of technicality...
  What the heck does "broadly support" mean in this context? Ambivalence to one's existence, quality of life issues and safety because one doesn't want to bother isn't support.
I have no idea how you came to this ridiculous conclusion.
- Probably by talking to centrists, I've come to a similar conclusion. Every single centrist I've talked to in person either refuses to use preferred pronouns, are outwardly disgusted by the idea of a trans woman, dont want them using their preferred bathroom, or are afraid of "trans indoctrination" in school (they dont want trans people mentioned or talked about in any class context). Idk, i know anecdotes arent strong evidence, but based on my experience, i don't think they pulled this conclusion from nowhere.
That's.. ..kinda cringey.
It's not always hate, sometimes it's fear too!
Kind of like how Republicans who aren't filthy rich like to claim they're "Libertarians." No, you just don't like be called an asshole for being an asshole. You ain't fooling anybody.
Since the gif doesn't work: "why would I hate someone weaker than myself? I only pity them"
- Well fascists love that dichotmy: The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak."
  They make the enemy seem strong so they can rally support to fight (see: genocide) them. And they make them out as weak so they can be held in contempt and shown that the fascists are truly the strongest and deserve to rule. This contradiction is not analyzed by those supporting it. And is similar to "Doublethink" from 1984.

Far left (hexbear): nuke all the western whites

Everyone else: that's fash lol

Far left (hexbear): that's literally transphobic meltdown

- Idk mate, you'd have to ask a hexbear.
Aren't hexbear actual far right trolls roleplaying as what they believe leftists to be like, though..?
- The magic is you can't tell the difference between honest tankies and lying fascists.
This is just cringe strawman bullshit mixed eith your wierd hate bones for hexbear
- Did you just shame my boner for being rock hard?

boTh sIdEs aRe tHe SaMe!!!

Nah, they see the difference. They just view both as equally bad
Edit: To clarify, I am not defending them. I don't think both sides are equally bad, I'm saying that's what centrists see.
- Because smugly choosing the midpoint between a brutal fascist autocracy and greater worker enfranchisement and equity makes more sense than just picking the good option.
  They just view both as equally bad
  They're objectively wrong according to just about any metric you might care to examine.
- Exactly. This is why the Centrist camp bootlicks the Fascists every day.

Could you point to a left-wing policy or regime that has led to political instability and concentration of political powers?
I ask because concepts like worker enfranchisement and more equitable wealth distribution seem to address those problems while unfettered capitalism exacerbates them. It's also worth noting how much democracy is undermined in a system where economic power is tantamount to political power and wealth consolidation is the norm.
On the other hand, are you able to point to centrist policy that effectively reverses the rapidly declining democracy and freedom in say the US?
- Regarding your first point, there is a whole Wikipedia article about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_socialism?wprov=sfla1
  And your second point is clear also in France (hits closer to home for me) where centrist Macron is dangerously flirting with authoritarianism and paving the way for the far-right…
- Not OP but I think it's fair to say Chairman Mao counts, Stalinist Russia counts, and no, I don't think they're particularly relevant to the modern conversation, I just think it's important to recognize that extremist thinking isn't sustainable regardless of its political bent.
  There are strengths and weaknesses to any extremist view, and if a concerted effort can be mustered to try and take the good and leave the bad, it doesn't really matter if one side is 90% evil and the other side of 90% good, if there is no capacity for self reflection and humility, then both sides will continue to suck to the extent that they suck and everyone will keep pointing fingers. So, railing against centrists as somehow weak and spineless is just outing oneself as unable or unwilling to evolve.
  Happy to have that argument torn apart, I just can't stand the current cuntscape of self-assured asshats who show up to any conversation with thirteen talking points about why they're the second coming of truth and justice and the other side is a bunch of NAZIS!!1!
- You're still demonstrating your inability to view as anything other than black and white issue by falsely setting it up as either supporting worker-enfranchisement (which of course sounds good) or not and not looking at any other nuance, as if the left is a single issue party only focused on workers rights and higher pay vs. complete and total political instability. Then trying to force people into making a choice in your false dilemma so you pretend to mentally and morally superior to them when they play along.
  The absolute, bull-shit ridiculousness of what you're saying is the exact reason many consider themselves to be centrist. It's not because they lack the understanding of nuance and politics, it's because YOU do.
- There's the Portuguese government, mostly left wing for a long time and they've plunged us into an economical crisis and are ready to do it again. But they still are in power because the old folk doesn't want to vote for anything they haven't for the past century.
- Post war consensus and the power of workers' unions in Britain during the 1970s? Especially the Winter of Discontent in '78- '79.
  The governments of Wilson and Callaghan were still a continuation of the Attlee socialist philosophy which gave public sector unions an immense amount of power in those days.
  The general strikes called by the likes of Scarsgill were brutal for the country, I remember, I was there, culminating in pediatric nurses walking off the job and leaving child cancer patients unattended.
  The trade unions did have legitimate grievances back then, their pay was paltry, and they hadn't had an inflation adjusted wage increase in like 15 years. I totally support their strikes, but the government's hands were tied, they simply had no money due to a confluence of factors, and eventually the whole country went bankrupt (like Greece) and had to be bailed out by the EU.
  While it wasn't pure socialism back then, Britain was still capitalist and deeply classist, it did basically destroy the country to have a lot of the social safety net and public building projects which people like Sanders and Corbyn champion today, along with very powerful unions. I'm a huge proponent of government building houses at a loss in order to give citizens a chance at affordable housing, but doing that for 20 years straight contributed massively to the UK going into financial bankruptcy in the 70s.
  Also, giant workers' unions can be a force for unbelievable evil, for example, the police union in the USA.
The problem is also thinking it's a one dimensional issue (left or right) when in reality you can pick and choosing different policies. In the US the two party system has cemented the notion that you have to pick red or blue. You end up vilifying the "others" instead of trying to find commonalities. Extremism is inevitable and corrodes society.
- This is also the source of a lot of the "they are the same to me". The positions might be dissimilar but if someone considers both parties to be morally bankrupt and disinterested in serving the country then they're still not going to rally behind one of them.
- Looking at not just the US (which stands out by being extremelly bad in that regard) but also at other countries with matemathically-rigged-for-power-duopoly voting systems (basically everything with Electoral Circles rather than Proportional Vote), I've conclude that the problem of modern self-proclaimed "democracies" is actually a lack of democracy.
  The whole normalization of the two-sides falacy in political thinking (which justifies the very anti-democratic de facto power duopoly as "normal" by hyper-simplifying incredibly complex social and economic situations into a mere 2 and only 2 options) then fans into all manner of disfunctional (brainless, even) ways of looking at society's problems and how to manage a country, not to mention making politics a tribalist play (the whole "us vs them") rather than a hard-nosed rational analysis of problems and solutions and evaluation managerial capability.
  Meanwhile the whole "choosing of the lesser evil" that's the main voting mode in such systems, leaves people displeased from the start (they're literally voting for a party they don't like, because the only other genuine option they have they dislike even more) and guarantees that things progressivelly get worse (because power just alternates between lesser evils, never actually getting better).
Centrists: How about a fair and balanced approach to oppressing LGBT+ people, banning books, teaching children lies about history, disenfranchising voters, separating families at the border, protecting the ultra-rich, maintaining systemic racism... have I left anything important out that we need a fair and balanced approach to?
- You don't know what a centrist is do you?
I would really hate to live politically and economically unstable country of germany
- Completely forgot how Germany is far left and doesn't make it's money from capitalism...
It's also fun to watch extremists lie nonstop but not call eachother out.
- I can't say its fun watching centrists smugly default to "well you're both wrong, extreme, and the same" without realising they're incapable of pointing to solutions to any problem whatsoever, and can only treat the left and right as comparable because they have zero understanding of the political poles they're sitting on the fence between.

Only if you're the kind of dummy that thinks tankies are left wing rather than authoritarian state capitalists.
- That's a contradiction, I just said I don't categorize any of them as "left" or "right", so how could that apply?
Sorry you were downvoted, political viewpoints are indeed way more nuanced that a single axis (even if I do use the binary terms upon it myself as useful shorthand occasionally)
- Guess that's what I get for phrasing it like that.
  Absolute fact though, "left" to "right" is complete pseudoscience, people want to try to cram the entire subject of how humans reason out ideologies onto a single scale. It makes absolutely zero sense. Most people don't have a single thing it measures in mind, and even if they do, it's not the same thing as if you go and talk to someone else. It has more to do with how we've been corralled into polar group identities and fed division by politicians and media than anything to do with how ideologies actually work.
  You can even see it in this thread. Some people are going with the "horseshoe" explanation ("oh, both extremes are authoritarian") and some people say that the "left" "extreme" is completely anti-authoritarian. You people can't even agree on what the scale measures in the first place, so why are you using it? "Well, the ideologies on the left side are leftist, while the ideologies on the right side are rightist."
I prefer a horse shoe
- Yep, after interacting with tankies you realise how much more sense it makes
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory
- yes and the open part are the loons and tinfoil hatters

That stance isn't really the 'far' left, the 'far' left doesn't even have have a significant voice in US politics currently.

Yeah they do bro Bernie almost won bro The green party has a chance bro

That's not centrists

That is absolutely not what the far left wants, the US is just that far right that reasonable outcomes are considered far left.

Yeah. That's like center-left in reasonable countries.

Is your socialist country gonna be democratic? If so, what about the people that will vote for the capatalist party? What If the capatalist party gains popular support? Will socialism just step aside?

Is your capitalist country gonna be democratic? If so, what about the people that will vote for the socialist party? What If the socialist party gains popular support? Will capitalism just step aside?
- What If the socialist party gains popular support? Will capitalism just step aside?
  80% of South America: hahahahaha coups go brrrrrrrr
- Just do it like the Romans, Only the riche really have the right to vote
You say that like capitalists let countries become socialist when the people vote for it.
Hint: they don't
"Is your egalitarian country gonna be democratic? If so, what about people that will vote for the nazi party? What if the nazi party gains popular support? Will egalitarians just step aside?"
Theoretically you can still have far left with capitalism you know, it just needs the heavy regulation it never gets
- Tf?
  Capitalism is incompatible with the far left which is about abolishing hierarchy and living in a stateless classless moneyless society.

Far left: „Capital is the root of evil. Follow me, I know the true way!”

Far right: „Capital is the root of all prosperity. Follow me, I know the true way!”

People that care to learn from mistakes of others: „Yeah no, we learned the price of following those claiming to know the true way. Over and over again.”

Yeah no, we learned the price of following those claiming to know the true way.
So we're just gonna follow the capitalists again. And again. And again.

Boy, you are ALL OVER this thread crying and sething. Go outside and touch grass, or go back to reddit, please.
- I am not crying my friend. I am responding to the shitload of hate comments I get for telling the truth.
I can't tell which direction this is posted from, but if you take the bird's perspective (how you generally refer to limbs: the owner's perspective) the top one is the left wing.
- Propaganda is not viewed by the creator, it's viewed by the viewer. Which means the upper wing is the right wing.

You're right.
You're gonna get downvoted into oblivion.
But not because you're correct but because you're flat out wrong
- the far left are already opressing people who aren't 100% on their side. Even if one criticizes their ideology only in the smallest part, or even dares to reject parts of it, one is hunted down with torches and pitchforks. Instead of accepting criticism, they call everyone a Nazi (which is a relativization of the term btw) so that they do not have to respond to the arguments. Anyone who is not in line is muzzled by force.
What far left realy mean: "we are gonna exterminate entire social groups because of their opinions and/or believes"
Which social groups are being referred to here, and how is 'exterminate' literally defined in this scenario?
- The majority who is not far left. everyone who is not 100% on the side of the far left gets muzzled by force. It's only a matter of time until they start use violence to force their ideology.
  Edit: they already use violence, just not collectively
You're right. This "meme" is shit and not even accurate.
- no u
- In Germany we say "der Klügere gibt nach" Which translates to "the wiser gives in" which is the reason why a dumb and loud minority is able to opress the majority now.
Haven't you made enough comments in this thread crying about nothing?
- I am just responding lol

The US has only two parties: the neoliberals that actively want to harm you, and the neoliberals that only pretend to care about you.
Far left and far right more or less do not exist in the US
A good chunk of the GOP are literal nazis, it doesn't get more far-right that that.
- But if you had to vote for one, which do you choose?
  I’d choose the pretender, because they can’t do as crazy shit without fully blowing their cover. And every now and then they actually give you a token win.
Non American here, you have no left wing parties. They're far right and father right. Your far right party has like two centrists which get blocked from doing any good from the rest of the party.
Lmao, what. You think people that want to ban books, ban trans people, ban abortions, and fucking overthrow Democratic governments aren't far right? Are you mental?
If this isn't far right, then what it is to you? An authoritarian committing mass murder?

That's the far left as defined by the far right. The actual far left likes to pretend that Stalin did nothing wrong and that nothing happened in Tienanmen Square.

Ok, everybody. Let's take a deep breath, calm down a little, and talk about how almost all kiddie fuckers are white male heterosexual youth pastors or sports coaches.

That's pretty american view point. how about:

Leftest: friends with Pootin and WinniePooh, anti nuclear, anti European Union Left: lesser friend with Pootin, anti nuclear, fine with EU Center: not friend with dictatorships, pro EU, pro nuclear Righter: friends with Pootin, anti EU Nazi : anti EU, friends with Pootin, amd well, nazi

Why do people think China is communist, despite all the evidence that is not. China has the fastest growing billionaire and millionaire class in the world. They are infected with the same issue we have. People in power stockpiling wealth and preventing true equality even tho we have enough resources and understand to move past things like money and power.
P. S for the offended left : i took example of Mélenchon here

You know who's a far-left? Russia. They totally got their basic needs covered.

You mean the nationalist country which invades its neighbours under false pretenses while being ruled by an oligarchic class?
Sure, what a great example of left wing policy m8.
Lmfao, wtf? You're not being serious, are you?
Russian is not far left lol just dumb. Even the Soviet union was capitalism hiding behind a title

You should look into the German "Rote Armee Fraction", and review if what you view as the extreme left is really that far left.

Guess what: sharing goals with extremists doesn't mean that you approve of the methods that make them extremists. To equate everything far left of neoliberalism with groups like the RAF is as reductive and frankly bigoted as equating all Muslims with isis or al quaeda.
- True, but that argument can be made both ways. I was simply trying to point out that the definition of far left in the meme doesn't compute with the memories from my youth.
Hilariously, the far right paramilitary organizations in both Germany and America are just as bad as the RAF was, only difference is that they were far right, and the police didn't care about them as much...
That's kinda like saying that one should look into the Bolsheviks, if someone expresses an interest in Communism. Sure the Bolsheviks managed to take over the USSR, but they almost didn't, and they wouldn't have been thrown in the gulag, had the Menchaviks gotten in power. Stalin was so very harmful to the revolution, that even Lenin said directly, "Don't let Stalin take over."
Fucking Wilson ruined everything.

Litterary the same thing

The truth is somewhere in the middle.

Golden Mean Fallacy