Post truth world

There is no conclusive evidence yet and people need to fucking stop pretending there is.

The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming, though. The kid was born in crackerstan. Non-Republican's there are about as common as non-whites. He's the result of a long-term breeding experiment that investigates what would happen if you concentrated all the most gullible/ignorant people into a single space. Their Republican governor literally prayed to their god, that the person guilty of the crime was an outsider/other that they could all openly admonish and attack. acknowledging in a Freudian manner, just how bad and demented people in the area are because of the cult. His whole family are sympathizers for the fascists.And much like Mormonism is the dumbest of an already dumb religion. He somehow found a dumber sect than the dumbest sect of politics his family was already in.
About all the kid was confused and conflicted. Generally very conservative and Republican by any measure.
- I'm amazed at all the people on this website convinced that there's no such thing as leftists with conservative families.
- The kid was born in crackerstan. Non-Republican’s there are about as common as non-whites.
  this is demographics, not evidence.
  He’s the result of a long-term breeding experiment that investigates what would happen if you concentrated all the most gullible/ignorant people into a single space.
  ???
  Rest of post is a screed about how you don't like Utah. Not evidence.
  I have seen no evidence either way this guy was a leftist, or a groyper, or anything. People out there WISH he was something so they can wrap this whole thing up and explain it away, without acknowledging that people with fulfilling lives and hopeful futures don't do things like this.
  His whole family are sympathizers for the fascists
  So are mine, and here I am, posting on lemmy.ml
  Slow your roll. Post evidence or stop muddying the waters.
- We don't know all the facts. He could just as easily be a leftist. I hate that it matters so much because either way, he had some demons to be able to do that. I see people on the right just as sure he's a leftist and I despise the idea that people would rather push a narrative than know the truth. Sadly, people on the right will always blame a leftist no matter what now and vice versa. I would prefer to know the truth whatever it is. And yes I know that historically what the odds are here. Truth matters though. Let's not stoop to immediately making a decision and ignoring facts that come out later.
- Where's the evidence he was? You're talking about his family but I want evidence he is maga before I can relax. He was registered to vote but not as a Republican and there's stories going around that he's in a relationship with a trans woman? That doesn't sound maga. But then again they're not really an internally consistent group and it wouldn't be the first time news outlets ran with fake trans stories so nothing I've heard is conclusive.
  Do you actually have any evidence?
fr, we don't need to swing right back the other way
let the right make unproven claims, and then bury them for it after, if appropriate
and in any case, we can still say that Kirk was a shitty person, that we do not mourn his death, that the world is better off without his messages of hate; and none of that is at odds with holding the view that he shouldn't have been killed, even if he himself is on record stating that democrats should be killed.
I'm annoyed by all the partial context quotes of Kirk's, too. he said enough bad shit that has full context that we don't need to exaggerate the possibly-misleading stuff at all
- then bury them for it after
  after what? after they start killing/jailing innocent people they deem "radical leftist"?... after they take complete control of the narrative? (they are 98% there)
- Agree except for just letting the right make unproven claims. The consistent message right now is no one knows.
  Besides, the shooter was an individual, his specific ideology doesn't by itself say much about the "left" or "right".
- I just want to appreciate the eloquency of your statement. I have been saying essentially the same thing, but not quite put as well, so I am stealing this!
  I've also been saying I wish it was a true judge and jury that would have locked him away and silenced his hatred instead of some vigilante, but that is when I am feeling like irritating specific people.
- Yeah. I don't get what is so hard about people questioning things even if they want to believe them.

me: the fuck is a groyper?!?

Neo nazi shit heels from 4chan
I thought it was a made up name for GOP-er aka a member of the republican party. Didnt realize it was more targeted than that. Also, i didnt know who nick fuentes is, so i guess ill count myself lucky
- "Groyper" is a corruption of goy / goyim, right? A Yiddish word for non-Jews.
the name is widespread enough to have a wikipedia article

Ok, I am not saying he wasn't, but would somebody mind explaining to me exactly why everyone is so ready to declare he is right-wing?

He's from a morman family, but that doesn't necisserily mean shit, the most left person I know was raised by mormans.

He also was saying Kirk was too hateful. That does not sound like words from a 4chan incel to me.

And the bullet casings were distinctly antifa, also seems like not a right wing nut to me.

I only ask because I am honestly concerned that the rhetoric around his politics is getting hijacked by people trying to make him a right winger to hide the fact that the left is not afraid to kill.

Edit: Thanks to everyone who took the time to explain what indicates he is a Groyper. And thanks in advance to any more info people share!

"Groypers" are what the followers of Nick Fuentes call themselves.
the shit written on the casings were references to memes they pass around in those circles, and there's other reasons, including his internet activity to say he was a Groyper.
Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck. Shits like a duck, it's prolly a duck.
- What's strange to me is the grandmother says they are all conservative, and the father says he got increasingly more into politics recently but doesn't distance himself from it by saying their political beliefs differed.
  I would have figured he would want to point out their beliefs differed if they were going to apart of an ongoing investigation.
- Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck. Shits like a duck, it’s prolly a duck.
  Well, that's kind of the problem. As much as I want to believe it, it just doesn't really fit. The things written to the casings… well I'm sorry, the only people I know writing "OwO what's this" or "catch this fascist" are very left-wing.
  Sure, it may be possible that they also ironically made fun of such things, but it's definitely not the intuitive thought
  So the only thing that actually would lead to that is his "internet activity" and yeah, that's what the original person asked. What activity is known that really shows he was far-right.
- Didn't Fuentes deny it though? Not that I'd put it past him to lie, but I don't think there's any hard evidence that Robinson was..
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Charlie_Kirk#Evidence_and_leads
- Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck. Shits like a duck, it's prolly a duck.
  You reminded me of this: https://youtu.be/YbaTur4A1OU
Supposedly the Fuentes lot had co-opted “Bella Ciao”, a classic and beautiful anti fascist song, for their own memes or whatever.
I listen to a lot of Knowledge Fight, where Fuentes is a recurring idiot, and haven’t heard of this there, but I am not a studious listener.
I hope you get another comment from someone who knows way more than I have picked up, but from what I can tell he apparently wore a Pepe costume and Nick Fuentes apparently was suggesting Kirk was a fascist. I'm not sure what Nick's actual politics are other than despicable, but apparently he didn't like how Kirk was doing fascism so I guess you can think Kirk is a fascist and support Fuentes. People are taking that and the furry aspect of the alleged engravings because apparently Fuentes fans lean into being furries. So overall it seems like a Pepe costume, furry reference, and fascist critiques are being interpreted by some to suggest groyper. Admittedly, I am not thoroughly convinced, but "If you're reading this you're gay LMAO" is some generic 4chan trash that I can't imagine any actual anti fascists would want to be tied to. Stranger things have happened though.
- To be specific, he wore an outfit and squatted in the style of a slav squat for Halloween in 2017, which was a popular meme at the time. Yes, there was a pepe slav squat meme. But if you look at the hat he's wearing, it will match the hats worn by slav squat and not the pepe meme, which I think was actually a hoodie
  EDIT: i guess I was thinking of a Halloween costume from another year
I've been wondering about this too, thought I was just out of the loop but nothing I can find from a reputable source has really made me think he's a right winger.
Like, maybe we can't say for sure but to insist he's actually extremely far right seems like a wild leap.
- Yeah makes me feel this place isn't much better than tankies. I'd like to have better proofs instead of jumping to conclusions just like that.
- Just because you can't hear the dog whistle does not mean it doesn't exist. The thing with Groypers, and many white nationalists over the past decade, is that they're full of ironic memes, co-opting liberal media, and hidden language as a tactic to confuse people like you into believing they're not an extremist movement at all
Lefty ex Mormons absolutely exist. And I've met several here. But I think all of them, if they were being honest. Would absolutely tell you that they are the exception and not the rule.
4chan incells constantly say everyone who disagrees with them are too hateful because they push back against what the incells say.
The memes on the bullets weren't clearly antifa. As others have pointed out they're ironic cultural re-appropriations by fuentez's community. Precisely because it muddies things and implicates those they see as enemies. It's a common, fascist tactic to distort and dilute the meaning of things.
There's been nothing meaningful and verified found that implicates him as a leftist. No literature, no behavior.Or any meaningful indicators whatsoever. Just speculation from someone at Fox and “LOL memes“.
Don't get me wrong, there's been Some information possibly from the other side, such as the Photoshop of him in a Trump shirt that has been proven fake.
No one is trying to portray it as the left not being able to kill or commit acts of terror. Everyone is simply pushing back on clear, transparent, fascist propaganda to victimize innocent people. Justifying the violence, they're already committing. Had much of the media sphere and the President of the United States not already tried using this as a justification to continue attacking innocent people. I would agree with the caution on assumption of the kids political leanings. But, civilly pushing back against fascists is no vice.
He also was saying Kirk was too hateful
This information comes from a misquotation. One example of the story with this information has the full context:
Cox said that a family member of Robinson had told investigators that at a recent family dinner, Robinson had mentioned Kirk’s upcoming event at Utah Valley University, and “they talked about why they didn’t like him and the viewpoints that he had,” Cox said. “The family member also stated Kirk was full of hate and spreading hate.”
Note that the family member is the one who said "Kirk was full of hate and spreading hate." But it has been repeatedly misattributed.

Bombshell ‘Wall Street Journal’ Investigation Finds Tyler Robinson Once Had Trans Uber Driver

The billionaire class wants a class war against the worker class so they can further shift wealth and power to themselves, but they certainly aren’t going to fight it themselves, and they can’t have a proxy class-war without two sides to fight it. The only way to get two sides is to vilify the less-gullible side by duping the more-gullible side into fighting members of their own class on their behalf.

MAGA rubes are being manipulated into turning against their neighbors. And maybe the left are being manipulated too, maybe I’m too far left to see it.

The left definitely do have a problem with infighting. We can't even agree on the right way to go about unfucking things. Between accelerationists, revolutionaries and people who still hope for peaceful solutions, between tankies and non-authoritarians, between hardliners and diplomats...
You'd think we could all agree to focus on our common enemy, but whenever anyone suggests a course of action, the discussion quickly becomes laden with epithets and accusations of being a capitalist pawn in some way or other.
Hell, I fully expect someone to misconstrue this very comment as an attempt to undermine leftist goals in some way.

Is there anything that is actually conclusive about what his views were? Like his social media accounts, his discord history?

None. There is zero definitive evidence of which side of the aisle he is on. The right wants him to be left and the left wants him to be right. Some on the right want justice, some want vengeance. Most on the left are celebrating either way, some didn’t agree with Kirk but didn’t believe he should die for his views.
Then you have the people in the center of the aisle that just want to be left alone and don’t care. Both the left and right hates these people.
- some didn’t agree with Kirk but didn’t believe he should die for his views.
  I just need to call this part out because it keeps getting repeated. I don't think hardly anybody thinks he deserved to die for his views. His actions, on the other hand, really get people's attention.
- And a fair chance he isn't on any side in particular. The team sports model of politics isn't everything...
Imagine someone engraving bullets with "Heil Hitler" and doing salutes on his socials.
Is it conclusive proof he's a nazi? I guess not, but it's a pretty big fucking hint.
- He didn't carve heil Hitler though. He carved anti fascist messages that have been co-opted by the far right to make fun of the left. The messages can be interpreted either way.
- Dunno about his socials (because really I couldn't care less who killed that piece of shit), but pretending the bullet engravings were anywhere near as clear as "heil hitler" would be can't be serious. It's more like if he had some random version of pepe engraved on them. Hints that he could be a groyper but by no means conclusive.
Nope. You could use what info there is to make an argument either way. But people just want to be right to the extent that they go with whatever they want to be true I guess.

i honestly don’t care, i am celebrating either way.

It was Serbian alien from planet Nibiru (whole universe is Serbian, God is serbian too) you don't believe me, ask Jovanka Jolić she knows everything.

Once again even on lemmy like every other social media, the point is not that anyone else has made up their mind on who he is. It's the right leading the charge on this. They decided they know exactly every detail of his life points to their radical far left evil bad. All while accusing others of the sin they commit.

There's no more point in even attempting discourse with the far right. I believe all you can and should do anymore is point out their meta-games. Do not wrestle with pigs. You're both covered in shit but the pig is enjoying it.

this is mocking them, not arguing with them… i think it’s good to point out holes in their logic
- There is no “logic” with them.. one person I spoke with about gun control had said if guns went away people would begin building bombs and using cars to kill people instead and that the number of deaths in this country would go up “10 times higher, probably even 100 times higher” than if we just kept guns. Now you tell me what part of that sounds like logic.

The only reliable thing is the truth so find it and stick with it. Ignore the rest.

I never spend a dime trying to keep up with bull and I'm not about to start, MAGA or not.

"You can't kill the truth. Well, you can, but it always comes back to haunt you."
Its taking way too long on the haunting part IMO.
- Is it? We're getting increasingly destructive weather patterns, that's the truth about climate change hitting us. We're getting constant school shootings, that's the truth about gun control and sicjak alienation and radicalization hitting us. Prices are skyrocketing, that's the truth about tariffs.
  Reality is fucking our country in the ass like it's Folsom, but we keep lying to ourselves

Its not a post truth world. Its just a couple of post truth countries.

And when It comes to lies and bullshit. The fire hose of falsehood leads back to Moscow

They want a reason to declare civil war so badly