Why do Americans pretend they're not broke when most Americans are in debt?
Why do Americans pretend they're not broke when most Americans are in debt?
147 comments
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crazy how people in brazil used to look up to American living standards, but it turns out americans have more inequality, violence, worse education, health system, worse food, and the list goes on
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I swear the biggest lie is that America is somehow a better country because it has houses that are expensive and fast food so that it can import what essentially accounts to slave labor when they finally come over excited to work for lower wages and live in cramped housing without their social networks other than the other slave laborers.
Its probably how we make it how people not climbing financially can still feel superior. No one has to pay the debt if you can keep getting new people on a lower rung.
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Americans rarely have access to real bread
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Propaganda of American exceptionalism.
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The US is big on wealth inequality, like most third-world countries. Yeah, lots of people are broke, but lots of people are also making 200k/year. Overall we're definitely struggling, but that doesn't mean everyone is struggling.
Lemmy also leans both older and into the tech demographic, which tend to be higher paid.
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Cries in near minimum wage UK tech work. The only upside is minimum wage is actually pretty good
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The US is big on wealth inequality
You misspelled "built".
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Yeah, close to 6% of the population is making unfathomable amounts of money and the crazy thing is that just 6% of the population is still 20 Million people. You could replace the entire population of Tokyo with American millionaires and still have more to spare to claim New York too.
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We have a very materialistic and consumeristic culture and we shame the poor.
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Homeless people are more financially rich than most of this country.
Do you see the problem yet
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It's actually curious to read this comment while several others state how they could manage to pay their debt, but they choose to be in debt because it's somehow convenient for them. I believe them, it's just curious because anyone could say the same.
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Part of that has to do with how our economy is built around credit cards and debt itself. They don't want you to fully pay off your credit card debt, and will reduce the amount you can borrow if you do. And if you try to opt out of the debt system entirely, it hurts you as well because you have no credit score from the credit card companies and no history of paying off you debt on time, which hurts your chances to get things like loans and mortgages. I hate debt, and ran into this issue the first time I went to buy a car because I had always used debit cards to buy stuff. Despite the cards being Visa cards that just got paid off immediately by charging my bank account instead of being paid off over time, I didn't have any debt history as a result and had to have somebody cosign my car loan to vouch for me that I'd actually pay the loan.
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are you talking about the comment mentioning it makes financial sense to not pay off their mortgage?
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Because being poor means you're weak, and weakness makes you're a piability to your friends, useless, and prey.
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America is a third world occupied country but everybody is in denial, obese and wearing nice clothes 😌
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Who's pretending?
We're all broke. Unless you're a boomer trying to sell a $0.50 house you bought in the 50s you paid for on a gas station cashier salary. They're ok for the moment. But even a lot of them are going broke now too. Highest demographic of newly homeless last I heard.
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Because those boomers who are broke were attempting to keep up with those who actually had money. I know a few examples...
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I'm guessing not admitting your finances are shit is pretty universal, no need to pick on 'Murica.
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There is some truth to what you're saying but the USA are special about it. It's like, they try to (badly) act as if they had more than enough money but it's obvious they're struggling badly. Like a functional addict thinking he's hiding it well but in fact everyone knows and there's a shared social discomfort in the charade
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It’s part of our culture. It dates back to when America was new. Plantation owners wanted to pretend we had a rich and powerful economy and history and culture. They made everything pristine and gaudy and exp wove looking but there was no substance. Look at the architectural decisions made in plantation houses and how the elements are still used in homes today.
We pretend we are better than we really are.
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Being in debt isn't synonymous with being broke.
I could pay off my house tomorrow if I wanted, but financially it doesn’t make sense - so I keep the debt. That doesn’t mean my net worth is negative or that I don’t have disposable income.
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Sorry, I'm dense. For me being in debt and paying off something like a loan on a house has the purpose of paying something you do not have the funds for to pay off in one go. Seeing as the longer you take paying it off, the more you actually pay since rates increase or whatever, depends on contract specififcs.
How is it not a smart thing for you? Is this about US credit rating system or something else.
Edit: thanks to all replies, not gonna spam thank yous to you all. Didn't consider those options.
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My savings are invested in the stock market, and the returns I get from that are higher than the interest on my mortgage. If I liquidated my investments to pay off the house, the savings from not paying mortgage interest would still be less than what I’d make from the market over the same period. I’d rather use the profits from my investments to cover the mortgage interest - that way I still have money left over. If I did the opposite, I’d lose that extra money.
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I have enough to pay off my house right now but I'm not because the interest rate is both lower than inflation and what I earn from interest, and other invesents, plus the increase in home values. If I paid off the house today then I also wouldn't have as much in my emergency fund. I have 5 years left of the mortgage, I'm paying roughly $50/mo interest which goes down every month.
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Besides what others have said, there is a mortgage interest deduction on taxes in the US. It’s basically the government saying “we want you to buy a house, so for the interest you pay on a home loan, you don’t have to pay taxes on it.” So combine that with a low rate, and it absolutely makes sense to have that debt and put the money to work elsewhere.
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I'm not who you are responding to, but I'm in the same position.
Interest rate on house mortgage is around 2%, currently looking to invest in an apartment in Europe. The current rates are ~4% here, so it makes more sense to keep the cheap money from the house mortgage than to trade it for more expensive money.
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How else are we supposed to know who's better than who?
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With a star on your belly.
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Debt, used properly, makes you wealthy. Every billionaire you know has debt because of the advantages.
I grew up middle class. To afford my prestigeous university, I took out debt (before grant only financial aid). The value of my education allowed me to earn a higher salary to pay it off in two years. I kept earning that salary and more after the debt was paid. It had a high present value.
I bought my latest house four years ago. Mortgage rates were so low I decided to finance part of it at 2% even though I had the cash. I now earn 4.5% in money markets. After taxes, I earn 0.72% every year not to pay off my mortgage. With $350,000 remaining, this is an extra $2,500/year right now.
I shop with credit cards that give me 2-5% back on purchases. I pay off my balance every month and have never paid one penny in interest or penalties in over a decade. My credit cards therefore pay ~$1,500/year tax free.
Larry Ellison likes controlling Oracle and being a billionaire. Rather than selling stock of Oracle to fund his lifestyle, he instead borrows against the value of the stock. As Oracle appreciated, he got to keep the gains he doesn't trigger capital gains taxes.
Most Americans do live paycheck to paycheck. They live at the ragged edge of their means and remain ignorant of finance. However, this is a global phenomenon. The difference is that much of the United States tax code is set up to benefit the wealthy. Adopt their habits and your wealth starts to snowball.
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I shop with credit cards that give me 2-5% back on purchases. I pay off my balance every month and have never paid one penny in interest or penalties in over a decade. My credit cards therefore pay ~$1,500/year tax free.
I don't really have anything to add as this is pretty much all spot on to how the wealthy live, but on this one I'd like to point out that you're not actually making money - you're just taking back part of the money that you already paid. That money isn't paid by the credit card companies, they'd never be dumb enough to leave money on the table like that. They pay it through increased transaction fees for the businesses, who eat the extra cost through higher prices. There are states that do something similar with their recycling programs. They give you 5 cents per bottle you recycle at the center, but you paid a 5 cent bottle deposit when you bought them at the store. You're not making any money, or even making back some of what you paid the store. You're just getting your deposit back.
Maybe you somehow reduce your taxes by cycling that money through a cash back program? I'm not well versed on finances, so I won't even try to theorize on that, but it certainly isn't free money or something.
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Yes, the credit card spending is technically a rebate, hence why it is tax free. However, I am going to purchase an identical basket of goods and services whether or not I use credit, so it is functionally identical.
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Larry Ellison likes controlling Oracle and being a billionaire. Rather than selling stock of Oracle to fund his lifestyle, he instead borrows against the value of the stock. As Oracle appreciated, he got to keep the gains he doesn't trigger capital gains taxes.
I never really understood this. He still has to pay the loan, and he isn’t doing that with his symbolic $1/year salary. What part am I missing?
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Debt interest below investment yield means infinite money.
You're missing the taxes they aren't paying on the yield of the investment. That's only taxed when sold. So if you borrow against investments tied up in the market then it never triggers the tax.
Theoretically their estate would get taxed on the value resulting in a nice cascade of tax triggers but they're doing away with that asap.
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As I understand it, one way is to just borrow again against similar stock. He borrows against stock bundle A for a while, and when that loan comes due, repays with a fresh loan against stock bundle B. A and B can be the same amount of stock, but as long as the line goes up, the loan against B more than repays the loan against stock A.
There's intricacies and details in the process, but that's how I understand the basic process goes.
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Toxic capitalism, instagram
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who's pretending they aren't broke?
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Many US-americans.
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I mean, it depends on what you mean by that. Anyone who has a credit card is going to have debt, just by virtue of needing to pay the bill.
But if you mean "most Americans have a negative net worth" --- taking into account assets and debts --- most Americans have a positive net worth.
https://www.kiplinger.com/retirement/average-net-worth-by-age-how-do-you-measure-up
The median net worth of all Americans in 2022 was $192,900.
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TIL that for my age bracket, apparently I suck.
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Yeah, but if you were younger than 35 in 2022, your net worth was 39,000 USD. It was already brutal, since society expects people to own, or at least rent, homes in their twenties. Now, I haven't heard about things shaping up for younger people (quite the contrary), Trump's dollars are less biggy and the clocking bomb in the form of inflation, they all paint a gloomy picture.
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Credit cards don't have to mean debt if you pay them off before the intrest applies. That's how you use them responsibly. Many don't.
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It's debt regardless of whether or not one pays interest. Debt isn't linked to interest. Just means that you have an obligation to pay money to someone.
EDIT: Though in fairness, if one never actually uses a credit card at all, then one never takes out debt, so I suppose it's probably better to say "if one has a credit card that one uses".
EDIT2: Though all this is not to diminish your point that not carrying credit card debt from month to month is generally a pretty good rule to live by.
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$192,900
How much of an average little house is that?
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About ⅖
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I'd be interested to see the median net worth after removing the top 1%, but I can't be bothered to Google it atm ..
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It'd have an effect, but not a large one --- that's why one uses median, rather than mean.
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And that you were never taught better was intentional.
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I blame that predestination bullshit that's in the country's DNA. If you're rich it must mean God loves you and if you're poor that's due to your sins.
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Puritanism meets prosperity gospel. The original Jesus would get crucified all over again if he set foot in this hellhole.
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Not enough people talk about this. This attitude is rampant in the Republican party and no one says a word about it Not even Republicans
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Because we want to spend our end of days in comfort
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Do we count mortgages as debt here?
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They often are, yes. I'm not sure exactly what "in debt" means to OP. But, when I use it like this I generally mean "negative net worth" not "carrying a line of credit".
I currently have a balance on a CC, but I don't consider myself in debt, because it's smaller than my checking account balance, and that's smaller than my investment account balance, and that's smaller than my retirement account balance.
I don't own a home, but I also didn't really consider myself "in debt" when I purchased my current car.
Oddly enough I would say I am "in debt to" my CC company, because I do owe money to them and they do not owe money to me. The "to X" part of the phrase restricts my consideration to just two-party financial relationship, in my mind. When you leave off the "to X", I consider all the financial relationship I have and (roughly) sum over them.
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I am absolutely beyond broke on paper. My debts are well into the six figures and my bank account is in the low five figures.
I'm in my 40s and have a whopping $15k for retirement and no assets.
It's pretty awesome.
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I had $17k in the 401k when I was laid off from my last job - it had been twice that but there was that big collapse. Raised a lot of kids and couldn't put much away. Always something but never much. That was in my 40s.
I am dug out now, mostly, in my 50s, not to the point I think I'll retire but oh my God when I look at the difference between them and now it's crazy, there is so much more.
I just want to say, don't give up hope. I would never have dreamed that this would turn around and it did. And the kids grew up too.
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Oh, sorry, I haven't given up hope. It was sort of said with...a laugh. I do have some investments I've made as of late that are looking like they could pay off big...we'll see. Either way, I still sleep okay at night and I have a roof over my head so I can't complain.
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I've been there. It sucks. But it was possible for me to get out. It took years. Be careful, and be ready to catch any luck that might come your way.
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If a person has a house they are paying a monthly mortgage payment towards, no one in America would consider them "broke".
I was in debt for several years from college tuition, but would not have been considered "broke" because I managed a job that met my essentials plus enough to pay down my tuition loans.
Debt isn't seen as bad so long as it's being managed. Exceptions for Dave Ramsey fan types.
You could say college and housing and medical stuff should never out a person into debt and I would agree. But that wasn't the question, it was about general perspective in the US.
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Yeah. Being broke is a problem with cash flow, not the balance sheet.
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That's called Modern Monetary Theory. It's a fun game until the underlying physics of our little civilizational project fails, that is to say the energy return on pumping oil out of the ground.
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What's important is how much you can buy, not how much money you have.
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Honestly, not being a dick and caveat for me not knowing shit about you, but if you are curious enough about the topic to ask, you should take a quick finance course. Not like enroll in college or anything. I wanna say there are tons and tons of free to access resources for learning how debt and assets work that will undoubtedly improve how you manage your own money.
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While I have no debts, sometimes my bank account is hovering at a $200. I hate the insecurity it gives me.
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Cash liquidity =/= standard of living
A lot of people are in debt on things like cars and homes, that’s where a lot of the debt is. There is also credit card debt, but that’s a whole other thing. So long as people can make the payments on the loans, and those payments grow slower than their income, they can maintain a given standard of living.
Also a lot of the super rich make most of their money off of collateralized assets as a sort of tax dodge. Them being largely payed in assets that appreciate in value, they then take loans out against the value of the asset, and so long as the asset appreciates in value faster than the interest rate, they’re fine. Since the assets aren’t taxed until they are sold (unrealized gains) and they’re technically not selling the assets by using them as collateral against a loan, so they’re not taxed on that income. This situation also skews the numbers on “the average debt of Americans”.
Ultimately though, this is all a super fragile situation, and all it takes is for assets (like say a house or stock in a big tech company) to decrease in value for everything to explode.
There are also a lot of Americans who are not in such a situation and are limping along financially, trading debt for time, and live at a much lower standard of living.
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Maybe the real curency was the debt we found along the way?
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It's just temporary trust me.
Tonight is the night, I'm going to sleep and have 🗽the American Dream ™️ 🦅 -
In debt doesn’t mean you’re broke. Not having money to spend is being broke. I’m pretty sure most Americans will admit they’re in debt.
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Yeah, exactly this. I have a mortgage and a car payment so I've got lots of debt, but I wouldn't consider myself "broke" by any stretch. I don't live paycheck-to-paycheck, I put 10% away for retirement, and I can afford to spend money where I want without stressing about it. Overall, pretty charmed compared to how a lot of folks are struggling these days and it's honestly kinda wild to act like it's comparable to anything they're going through.
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If I have no money and my parent five me money to spend to live off, I'm broke.
How is it different of the money comes from a credit card company or bank instead?
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If I have a $500,000 mortgage, and my assets (including equity) only sum to $400,000, then I’m $100,000 in debt. If I make $12,000 a month, and my mortgage payment is $4,000, then I have $8,000 a month to spend. I’m in debt, but I don’t think anyone would call me broke.
The key point in your scenario is that you don’t have money to spend, not that you’re in debt.
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Because your debt is backed by an asset (house) that may be worth more than the debt.
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Stupidity and the art of flexing.
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I think most americans identify with the book cover, and not the book.
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I've dealt with people that made it to adulthood not really understanding that if they have cash in their pocket, but more debt than that, they don't really have money available to spend on frivolous things. Some of them are my friends.
They will be "broke" 5 days of the week, but spend freely from when then cash their paycheck (or get that next payday loan!) until all they have is change.
But, I've been lucky. I got a degree without taking on debt AND the worst CC hole I had to dig myself out of was not even to the limit of one card. I think most people have to ignore student or medical or other debt just to function...
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Hey, it's the land of Hollywood. If anyone in the world is good in pretending, it's them.
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I mean honestly some should not be. There is this guy that talks about california real estate on over ten million dollar properties were the person has problems with other debt to. I mean the down payment has to be a mill or more. If I had financial means like that I would be debt free.
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Unfortunately financial responsibility is not taught in school. Hell finance isn't even taught unless you're going to business school and that doesn't even necessarily cover skills like budgeting.
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Kinda answered your own question there
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I believe it's partially because the national debt has always been high and keeps getting higher. It's been a little while since I checked or heard anything about it, but it got a lot of press time in the 2010's. I feel like that affected how americans view debt. I've also heard the financial advice espoused by banks "it's financially healthy to have some debt, it helps you build credit". Which is partially a crock of shit and regardless of the veracity of that statement, it mostly leads to people digging a hole they can't get out of.
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Who's pretending? Not here! We know we broke
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spendy culture in general is disconnected from reality
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Must keep up with the Jones.
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I hate that the concepts of broke and debt even exist. It's all made up.
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Shame. Like several other cultures, Americans are very judgmental of poor people.
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I mean, yeah, I have a mortgage that will outlive me, but I still have money coming in.
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MSMs propaganda, decades of it, so you wont realize that you are "actually poor" because of the top .05% owners. im simplifying, buts its through various mechanisms, like advertisements, news, politicians.
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I owe nothing!
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Ok, not an exact answer, but... In 2008, John Oliver had a bit that I thought captured the US culture of consumerism. He basically said that many countries could invent or even build an inflatable BBQ - but only Americans would actually buy an inflatable BBQ. Anywho, spending money, independent of whether a person has it, seems to be a cultural phenomenon in the US.
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https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/keep+up+appearances
Sometimes people attack weaknesses. This is a defense mechanism. Also it's better for mental health to focus on what you do have, rather than what you don't. That doesn't mean you're not trying to meet genuine needs. It just means learning what are genuine needs and addressing that, while also noting "I have food and shelter, that's a great thing!" Especially when so many don't.
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Classism.
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Credit
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Most americans aren't in debt.
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Most americans aren’t in debt.
American household debt is on a relentless upward trajectory. It was at a record $18.20 trillion by 2025, up $4.6 trillion since 2019. With 90% of Americans having some form of debt
https://www.debt.org/faqs/americans-in-debt/demographics/
IDK about US education and math but "most" in the rest of the world means more than 50%.
10% = not good
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147 comments
Americans are big on appearances. Gotta seem religious. Gotta seem rich. Gotta seem happy. Gotta seem free.
Seem