i wonder why libs never apply this logic for Indigenous people on Turtle Island 🤔
Or, like, Palestinians.
They aren't arguing in good faith
Are the libs even making this argument? I thought genocide was too spicy for them now
Also they could have done some land reparations without stealing Palestinian land, if anyone gave a shit. Pretty sure one of the countries that lost the war had a place called Judenberg already, for example.
Having grown up in evangelical Christianity, I don’t quite understand the attack on liberals here?
Zionism is a major part for the conservative manifesto to create the New Jerusalem to bring forth the return of Jesus. Evangelicals view Jews as reluctant Christians yet to accept their king.
Liberals support Israel because of Cold War propaganda labeling. That evolved into the good guys versus terrorism propaganda we have now, which blinded us to things like stealing land, the blockade, interfering in elections, and indefinite detainment without charges or trial. It was all hand waived because "terrorists". But in reality it was the only way left for them to try to defend their sovereignty.
lefties love to hate on liberals for whatever reason. Even though the definition of liberal is not very specific and encompassing.
I still haven't quite figured out why. Idk if people just don't broadly understand the definition of liberalism in a political context, or if it's just "hurr durr not lefty bad" shenanigans.
on another note, if anybody in the comments has any expansive explanation to this, please, indulge my curiosity.
I think it's American rugged individualism, conservatives have an easy time agreeing on binary decisions (women's rights bad, science bad, immigrants bad, etc) whereas anything progressive requires complications solutions and problem definitions. In that there are many right answers, and liberals seem willing to be more angry with someone 95% in agreement with them rather than the people trying to drag the country backwards.
It's the new wrench to move the ratchet
It has been a political wedge issue used as a weapon by conservatives. Liberal buy-in to zionism is its primary support system.
It's funny how Europeans didn't feel the needed to give any of their land to the Jews, even though they're responsible for the Holocaust.
What?!? This was a perfect opportunity to
get rid of Jews and Brown people at the same timesettle the promised land! Did you really expect theracistsupstanding European leaders not to take it?Maybe because Britain had already mandated a Zionist quasi-state (that would eventually become modern day Israel) and Zionist Jews were already migrating there even before the Holocaust? Or are we simply ignoring that part of history?
They had been migrating or atleast trying to since the Ottoman empire controlled the region, Ottoman authorities were able to keep them out to a degree but it was most likely a failing attempt on the long term regardless.
Actually, allot of countries let some lands for jews, but they don't want it. They want specifically they holly land.
That brush you're using there is the wrong size
Not really, Leopard isn't remembered like Hitler because Hitler's victims were European.
Every
Balkan(edit:) European country: 🥸isn't that literally the definition of zionism? Why is this even a meme?
Zionism at its most reductive and ideal is the idea that Jewish people should have a state/homeland that will never persecute them for being Jewish.
In theory, that is what Joe Fucking Biden meant when he told a crowd of Jewish people that he was a Zionist.
The problem starts when you start asking questions like: "How do you do that?" and the actual Zionists, surprisingly, aren't that interested in the creation of a secular state, or what's going to happen to the non-Jewish people already living there.
So, that's the meme. The conflict between the ideal and the reality, this weird thought space between concept and reality that really only takes a person thinking one step ahead to notice but liberals, like Joe Biden, didn't and don't.
If you're being generous to liberals, and not a realist who knows they're active and knowledgeable participants.
Zionism is a settler colonialism project that was able to really start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a 'modern' way to 'solve' the 'Jewish Question' of Europe. Western Nations supported this instead of instituting legal protections and refuge for Jewish people fleeing persecution.
Adi Callai, an Israeli, does a great analysis of how Antisemitism has been weaponized by Zionism during its history.
Since at least the 1860's, Europe was increasingly antisemitic and hostile to Jewish people. Zionism was explicitly a Setter Colonialist movement and the native Palestinians were not considered People but Savages by the Europeans. While Zionist Colonization began before it, the Balfor Declaration is when Britain gave it's backing of the movement in order to 'solve' the 'Jewish Question' while also creating a Colony in the newly conquered Middle East after WWI in order to exhibit military force in the region and extract natural resources.
That's when Zionist immigration started to pick up, out of necessity for most as Europe became more hostile and antisemitic. That continued into and during WWII, European countries and even the US refused to expand immigration quotas for Jewish people seeking asylum. The idea that the creation of Israel is a reparation for Jewish people is an after-the-fact justification. While most Jewish immigrants had no choice and just wanted a place to live in peace, it was the Zionist Leadership that developed and implemented the forced transfer, ethnic cleansing, of the native population, Palestinians. Without any Occupation, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing, there would not be any Palestinian resistance to it.
Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be 'Transferred' to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.
Quote
Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.
The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.
An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.
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10 myths of Israel by Ilan Pappe, summerized and full book
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Transfer Committee and the JNF led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate.
Ethnic Cleansing
Historian Works on the History
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Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History - Nur Masalha
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The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 - Nur Masalha
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A History of Modern Palestine - Ilan Pappe
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The Hundred Years' War on Palestine - Rashid Khalidi
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The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe
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The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences - Avi Shlaim
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The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories - Ilan Pappe
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The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development - Sara Roy
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10 Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappe (summery)
The problem starts when you start asking questions like: “How do you do that?” and the actual Zionists, surprisingly, aren’t that interested in the creation of a secular state, or what’s going to happen to the non-Jewish people already living there.
i can see how this is conceptually a problem, but i struggle to understand why people care about it, as far as my understanding goes, you couldn't find a country without a history of some form of colonialism.
you can go as far backward or as forward as you want, but i think there is always going to be some form of colonialism and conflict in humanity, it's just engraved into the evolutionary history of humanity, as it is in most other forms of life, the primary difference is that we figured out how to make guns so we can shoot at each other instead of fighting more traditionally.
As far as government goes, i don't really know how much of that would be a problem, especially considering that this is the middle east and a lot of middle eastern countries have religion explicitly integrated into the government (at least in under my knowledge). If we're talking about giving rights to people, things get more complicated. And i'm not super familiar with this myself, but it is to my knowledge that non jewish people living in israel have the same rights as jewish people (or broadly similar rights) excluding occupied territories of course.
This is also excluding the extremely high tensions between arab/palestinian people and israeli/jewish people in the region as well, which only makes things more messy and complicated.
i suppose on the surface i'm sort of iffy on the idea of israel, but given the broader context of the middle east, i'm not really sure zionism is any worse than the existing structures in the middle east.
Leftists only love failed independence movements. Jews worked and fought for centuries before succeeding in building an independent homeland. As soon as they succeeded, it became the "wrong" thing.
I'm not afraid to say:
Free Palestine
Free Tibet
Free First Nations
Free Kurdistan
How about when they started genociding it became the wrong thing?
Say that. Say "genocide" instead of "succeed" if you love facts so much.
If they hadn't immediately started a project of displacing the people who had been there the last 2,000 years then you might have a point. But no they went straight to Terrorism, and we cheered.
Israel was never a movement for freedom, from the start it was a far right enthnonationalist colonial project.
Not exactly. Zionism was a labor-communist movement with an emphasis on fairly purchasing land from absent landlords, communal ownership, multiculturalism, agriculture, and independence for the native peoples of the region.
I know it goes against the popular narrative these days, but the nice thing about history is that it never changes. I'm happy to share primary sources or mainstream, independent scholarship on any of these points if you have followup questions on any of these points.
For now, here is a poster from 1900 to illustrate the point:
sry friend, the free tibet part'll get you banned here
everyone knows, that tibet isn't a country, but actually belongs to glourios china, which is, even tho it has one of the highest billionair density in the world, a true socialist utopia... also uigurs are a western lie
I mean English has three different words describing specifically persecuting Jewish populations with death.
This is not 100 years Hitler blah blah ... this is talking about 15 centuries of Christian oppression.
Linguistically I'm still saying Jewish people need a safe space. And we, as nuclear Americans, call that safe space a fucking nation.
Before WWII the Jewish people had adopted the US as Zion. They already had a country, we didn't need to refuse their refugees and fuck that shit up.
Yeah, the reality is the US was too anti-Semitic to do it as well. And it still doesn't solve the problem the Zionists justify their crimes on, as seen with the very real modern possibility that America's protections for religious freedom might fail.
That's not even getting into the fact that America was segregated at the time and it would have been easy enough to whip up resentment against millions of refugees and create a second racial underclass...
And it had to be in Palestine? And it had to be an unregulated mess of Terrorism? It couldn't have been in Germany where occupation forces were on hand to do an orderly transition, and from the country that actually committed the sin?
Everything about the forming of Israel screams, an excuse for one last colonial project. Because none of what you said makes what they did acceptable. The Palestinians didn't hurt them. They just wanted to keep their land.
Oh, well then, I guess that justifies the ethnic violence and cleansing they're committing today. If I'd known they'd suffered for centuries I wouldn't have been upset that they're now the ones creating the suffering.
Honoring cultural traditions - the super versatile Swiss Army Talking Point that works equally well for the good guys or the bad guys!
Must be nice to not have centuries of pogroms because of your ethnicity.
What's that like to judge from that position ?
"We had it bad so now we get to do bad" is still bad
