They'll cast you back to the Windows realm with all their toxic might

Thats the neat part, we dont need to and theres literally no benefit in doing so. Heres the cycle
Linux user suggests Linux to eveyone (like a dumbass) -> people install Linux -> its not a Windows clone -> people get pissed and complain (without doing anything constructive) -> people reinstall Windows
The fact is the more nontechnical people use Linux the more complaints maintainers get, the less detailed bug reports become, and the increase to funding/contributions will be mininal if even noticeable.

Been using Linux for almost two decades now. Mostly Ubuntu and now recently Linux Mint.

True Linux users build their own kernel and distro from scratch from an environment running directly in EFI
- @wander1236 @Lexam with tcc, this should be possible...
  https://github.com/andreiw/tinycc
normie users should be able to everything without using a terminal

A true mainstream Linux distro would need guidelines like this:

The user is never be expected to type a command into a terminal.
The user is never be expected to edit a configuration file.
There is a graphical UI for every possible action the user might want to (or have to) do.

This especially includes:

Configuring audio devices
Installing graphics drivers
Updating the operating system
Managing applications and storage space
Connecting to networked storage
Adjusting kernel parameters (This is neccessary on certain hardware, yet, barely any distro has a graphical UI for it.)

The only distro that comes close to this is Linux Mint, but not even Mint covers everything I just mentioned.

If we want Linux to succeed, there needs to be at least one distro that confidently ships without a terminal.

There can never be a distro that ships without a terminal. I will burn it with the fire of a thousand suns. Even Windows has a terminal
Windows doesn't even cover everything you just said. The number of times Windows 10 broke my Bluetooth devices and I had to much around in registry to remove the device profile just to try to repair the device, is part of the reason I switched to Linux in the first place.
Yes, many distros need a little refining and smoothing for the general public, but only because people are so used to dealing with bullshit troubleshooting on Windows that they don't see it as bullshit anymore.
- That’s a low bar, but importantly they’re still correct that technically Windows looks like it can handle those things as far as a regular consumer can see. Windows is unholy trash, but it at least doesn’t tell people who can’t even navigate their basic file explorer that they are expected to use scary terminal commands they likely found on a forum or third-party website.
  Personally I think a little more tinkering spirit would do the whole world good, not just with computers, but reality is the way that it is for the moment(things can change, fingers crossed).
You were absolutely right about everything up until your very last sentence.
We need a distro that comes with GUIs for everything indeed, but shipping without a terminal would be both a bad idea and would cause the distro maintainer to go up in flames immediately.
- Interesting, i kinda read that quickly and took awsay from it more of a
  Ships without the expectation to need a terminal, not actually ship without one at all
The reason I had no problem whatsoever editing config files is because I'd been doing it for decades already in Windows with .ini files.
And not needing a terminal is different than not having access to one. Windows has a terminal.
- I think it even ships with 3(?) terminals for some reason now for some reason lol
Seriously - Linux needs a standardized config schema spec. Something that programs should provide which an application can read and provide a frontend interface for the users to adjust config files.
Could be something like:

schema_version: 1.0 application: name: Poo Analyzer icon_path: /etc/pooanalyzer/images/icon.png description: Analyzes photos of poo schema: - config_file: path: /etc/pooanalyzer/conf/poo.conf conf_type: ini configs: - field: poo_directory type: dir_path name: Poo Image Directory description: Directory of Poo Images icon_path: /etc/pooanalyzer/images/poo.png - field: poo_type type: list name: Poo Types description: Types of Poo to Analyze values: - dog - cat - human - brown bear icon_path: /etc/pooanalyzer/images/animal.png ...
Any distro could then create any frontend they'd like to manage this - the user could even install their own.
- I agree and disagree.
  The premise is solid: unify config so it's standardized and machine parse-able for better integrations like an easier-to-build UI/UX. It could even have ramifications for cloud-init and older IaC tech like Puppet.
  The problem is Linux itself. Or rather, the subsystems that are cobbled together to make Linux a viable OS. You're not going to get all the different projects to pivot to a common config scheme, so this YAML standard would need a backend to convert to/from whatever each little deamon and driver requires. This creates a few secondary problems like community backlash (see systemd), and having multiple places where config data must be actively synchronized.
  I think the current crop of GUI config systems are aleady well down the most pragmatic path: each config panel touches one or more standard config files, wherever they are, and however they are structured. It's not pretty under the hood, and it's complicated, but it works. These tools just need a lot more polish on the frontend.
- This particular program would work great in combination with old school German/Dutch toilets with the poop shelf, take a pic after the deed and let the program tell you how you need to adjust your diet.
- Ever heard of xdg?
Been using fedora on a laptop for a year with no command line intervention.
I don't mind the command line, but it has been uneccesary.
No pc OS available meets your requirements for this lol, not linux, windowns or crapple osx
Sure would be nice if linux was the first available though.
OpenSuse does all of this or almost all of this.
Every KDE distro can do all of these except whatever adjusting kernel parameters means? I don't know how to do any of this in the command and I've been using Linux for 8 years.
They don't need to take away the command line. Just to make it so a low skill user can get by without it. Even windows ships with PowerShell.
I dont understand, why do we want Linux to go mainstream? Eveyone constantly says it yet nobody has an answer. In order to become mainstream it would need to be so dumbed down that people like me would stop using it.
I've been a happy daily linux user for over 20 years. No need to wait for "linux to succeed" whatever that means. It has gotten better and more advanced every year since I first switched.

Eh. I'm mostly a power user, all day at work in terminals and keyboard shortcut galore.

It doesn't prevent me from laying back and running a "filthy casual" kubuntu with little to no setup at all. At one point you reach the state where you just want to use your computer, not tinker with it all the time.

This is why Arch never stuck for me. I work with Linux all day. I don't want to spend my free time fixing my own shit because a update broke the bootloader.
- This is ultimately why I switched from Arch... Now I've just got an Arch distrobox and if it breaks, no big deal.
- Ubuntu Server baby. That shit is absolutely rock solid, I've literally never had an update break stuff in the decade+ I've been managing it.
And Alexander wept, seeing as he had no more computers to set up and tinker
-Alexander (probably)
I am not able to comprehend what you mean. I love tinkering, ricing and starting all over again if something is permanently fucked. This is not a joke.
I respect your approach, though , ofc.

My dad who retires today and who has been a Windows user since roughly 1993 has set up multiple Pi-Holes and OpenVPN in the last few years and recently even installed Ubuntu in WSL so he can run bash scripts locally too. He's not in a tech job, he's a doctor.

A year ago my friend who has been using Windows for his gaming for the last 22 years asked my to help him set up a Fedora dual boot. Just to play around with, even though he doesn't have a tech background. He didn't really use it much. But today his work had him blocked by their own fuck-up and he decided to use the time to try it out again.

This evening he told me about how he upgraded his Fedora back to a current version using GUI tools. Then he saw that Windows wasn't the default boot in his grub boot order anymore. He tried to find an app for editing grub, realised this was the kind of thing people do with CLI. So in the next two hours he learned enough CLI using a free beginners lesson he found online somewhere, until he found the history command, where he found the grub command we used during the original setup. He was so excited about this success!

I think the CLI criticisms are way overblown, and non-programmers can use CLIs perfectly well if they want to.

I think the CLI criticisms are way overblown, and non-programmers can use CLIs perfectly well if they want to.
it's not even criticism, it's just people being lazy and not wanting to learn things, which is fine, be lazy all you want. But at least be honest with yourself about it.
I think people have trama from Windows CMD and DOS
It is much nicer these days
- I was thinking that a lot of them are too young to even know what those are... My thought was that they've been raised on GUI for everything, without being able to tinker even if they wanted to, that the entire concept of CLI is alien to them.

What scares me is that I’ve tried to hook multiple “geekier” teenagers on Linux, and they aren’t interested. Even the math-y ones don’t know the difference between an operating system and a browser. My main computer is Arch with xmonad and it disturbs and confuses them.

We have a lost generation when it comes to computers. Lots of the little geeks that would have been playing around in the registry or learning powershell 15 years ago are so stuck in walled gardens that they don’t even know there’s a world outside of them.

To be fair, Windows really hasn't pushed Powershell all that much. They haven't even fully ported over all of Command Prompt's commands. You have to prefix those with .\ (I think; it's been a while) in order to get them to run even though the error message that comes up if you don't include that will tell you, "Hey, there's a command named this. Prefix it with that to use it."
Now, instead of simply porting everything over, they have one app (named Terminal) running both programs.

Unfortunately I use Windows at work and I constantly use the CLI. I probably use the CLI more on Linux, but I'm generally doing really awesome stuff on Linux and really dumb stuff on Windows.

If you're just a regular chud consumer, then maybe you don't need it on either OS.

those are the people not even liked by lifelong linux users. my grandparents used linux and never touched a terminal. before he was mentally gone my grandpa bet on horses online. Also every gui installer was made by someone not like this.

meanwhile windows you have no choice but to use terminal as well as customized installer image if you want to mitigate the built in spying and use an offline account

Well yea, Linux is about learning how the computer works; wheras windows wants to hide it

No. This may be the case for some distros like Gentoo or Arch, but applying this to the whole ecosystem and expecting everyone to even be interested in computers (which they should not fucking have to be to use a user-friendly Linux) is what alienates people.
Linux is software.
It doesn't contain this intrinsic meaning you refer to.
- Linux is FOSS, maybe check that up?

There's an OS that doesn't require command line use to do anything slightly advanced? That hasn't been my experience.

“I don’t want to learn/use the CLI” is equivalent to saying “I only want to use features that have a GUI”, which you can already do on any operating system (including Linux).

No, it means not needing terminal to have a usable system or to fix it
even Windows sometimes doesn't meet this

I believe Linux distros aimed at nontechnical users should strive to not need a user to ever use a terminal, but I also believe folks should be encouraged to try them anyways.

Counterpoint: why should the standard for "just works" mean no CLI? What if distro maintainers decide that their user's experience is improved by relegating some tasks to the shell?

because taking away user choice and accessibility is never a good idea
Because knowing terminal commands is neither accessible nor feasible for the average computer user. It might be more efficient, if you take the time to learn it but the average computer user doesn’t want to spend that extra time. They want everything to be accessible and to be easy.
Linux should always have the choice to use the terminal. But if you want the day of the Linux desktop to actually arrive some day, you need at least a couple of distros that don’t require you to know what a package manager is.
- neither accessible nor feasible for the average computer user.
  Absolute hogwash. Learning like five short words is absolutely not unfeasible for any literate person, if a user can't do that, you can be sure they aren't actually an average user, they can't do anything with gui either. And probably need help tying their shoes.
  A two years old child can learn 5 short words. A grown up can write them on a sticky note and plop them on a screen.
- They want everything to be accessible and to be easy.
  CLI is both accessible and easy, intuitive even. The only problem is that it requires a fundamental knowledge basis, and some syntactic context. But that's all pretty minimal.
  I would argue a GUI is more confusing if it has any nested elements in it (like photoshop for example)
- knowing terminal commands is neither accessible nor feasible for the average computer user
  I don't think that's true. It's literally just asking your computer what to do, much easier to remember than memorizing which subpage of the control panel opens the right wizard to get what you want.

Giving the would-be linux newbs the benefit of the doubt, IF they have any terminal experience at all it is with CMD/PowerShell. I don't blame them one bit for wanting to banish all terminals into the shadow realms, they had a traumatic experience.

CMD is downright awful, when Powershell came on the scene I weeped for joy at work

The command line allows people to help troubleshoot problems across Linux dostros without everyone's desktop having to look exactly the same.

Stop whining, you ninnies, it's a good thing!

Ah, the classic "CLI commands are universal" nonsense. Isn't even true with poweruser distros (look at Alpine or Nix), but neither with common ones. But I'm sure reinstalling grub on a systemd-boot distro can't be that bad, right? Here, quickly install something to fix that. Oh, your distro doesn't apt but pacman/dnf/zypper/whatever? Too bad, don't know those. Wait, why is that config file missing? Oh, your distro saves it somewhere else, sure hope you didn't copy some script from the internet that now failed halfway through!
Surely after copy-pasting all those commands the other person has learned something to help themselves next time, other than that they're utterly lost on Linux without the help of others. This will definitely make people use Linux instead of going back to the exploitative OS they know where they at least feel comfortable enough to know it won't fail on them.
- I have fixed loads & loads of issues via cli. I don't even know what the hell you're on about. Sounds like a skill issue, tbh.
- Lol. Navigating through menu-in-popup-in-window-in-tab-in-popup or adding/changing registry keys you understand nothing about is surely superior, right?
- if you're using systemd, 90% of your system maintenance and boot handling is going to be running through systemd, so it's likely to be pretty syntactically similar.
  other than that they’re utterly lost on Linux without the help of others. This will definitely make people use Linux instead of going back to the exploitative OS they know where they at least feel comfortable enough to know it won’t fail on them.
  yknow, unless they do actual debug. Everytime i've seen someone go over an issue they have with linux, via someone else, it follow the process of debug, troubleshoot, solve. Where you must necessarily learn something. Maybe not as much as when you figure it out yourself, but group troubleshooting is often more efficient.
  Not to mention all of the resources and information out there to actually figure out what's happening is so much more accessible.

I've been using Linux for almost 20 years, but I still remember the fear of the terminal. The truth is that there is not much that you need to learn for daily use. Unless I'm working on an actual project (like configuring servers/networking) I don't spend much time in a CLI. Start with a beginner friendly distro (Linux Mint Debian Edition is my pick). You shouldn't need terminal at all for basic usage. Next, find some tutorials on basic Linux terminal usage and practice. The goal isn't to "learn every command" but to just familiarize yourself with how it works. Learn how to navigate your files and folders (ls, cp, mv, touch, etc). Learn how to edit text files (use nano). After that, anything you need to learn will be because you want to do something beyond basic use.

gasp how dare you suggest nano over vim! /s
- I have nothing against Nano, but after just a few months of using Neovim for basically all my text editing needs, Nano is completely unusable to me.
- Uhh you mean the only correct text editor (vim) /s /lh

half of the time the people who swear by clis and attack people who prefer a gui can't tell me what a given command is without pressing the up arrow 50 times first

Amateurs use the up arrow. The real pros use history | grep 'something I remember from the command statement' :)
- or fuck :)
- Ctrl+r surely
Next time, tell them, they should install fish and starship
Ctrl+r to reverse search or use atuin shell history.
But no comment otherwise :P.
I use fish, also I dont need to remember every CLI command just the ones I use

We got to approach this nuanced though. Yes, a strong stance against all the enshittification (incl. dark patterns and all that) is absolutely necessary to preserve the good things most Linux distros have in common. For example once KDE e.V. and the Gnome Foundation have finished their work at the payment backend for Flatpak repos we absolutely need to bolster Flathub + a handful of others (to avoid centralization) so they become a default, and through that are able to enforce a strong "no bullshit" moderation as companies are trying to "capture the market". This will be an inevitable shitshow as Linux-based OS' become more popular.
Meanwhile we have to admit that not providing comprehensible and well integrated GUIs for everything - and that includes stuff like Bootloader settings, Systemd Services Management, sysctl configuration etc. - is a shortcoming that should be remedied in the future. On rare occasions even average users will have to open these things, and it's way better if they do so through an environment they can understand and navigate. Anything else is just gatekeeping.
Linux should be accessible to everyone - that includes normies as well as those who may not be mentally able to understand or memorize CLI. This fear of enshittification is understandable in our current landscape, but it absolutely doesn't help if it stifles development towards more user-friendliness. After all nobody argues to take away the CLI in any capacity, just to add another abstraction layer for those who either need or want it. Which, assumably, are most people.
Have to ask, do you gdb everything you run ? You think of big sofwares like office or things like that. There are GUI tool who replace the command line better. I am thinking about the configure display GUI specifically. X config was a pain... We are better of with the GUI and drag and dropping screen to place them.

I'll be honest, as a macos & Linux user, even macos, the (self proclaimed) Holy Grail of accessibility and user friendliness,required me to run a few commands to fix bugs (not in weird softwares, just stuff which stopped working through reboots in the OS itself).

You can't expect to use a computer without CLI, or what you get is windows (and even then, you might get around the CLI but you gonna need to do some cursed regedit at the first attempt of slight customization, or bug).

The only exception to this is phones, and for good reason; you hardly can do shit in phones anyway, and if it bugs all you can do is wait for the devs to fix it for you

Almost all maintenance tasks and fixes on windows come back to the command line. So I have no idea why people keep bringing it up about Linux.
- Because Windows hides its (ugly ass) terminal in shame so the user never has to see its putrid face.
  Linux encourages terminal use, including it as one of the base starting icons in most distros.
  That's my guess, anyways.

Most of the people I've introduced to Linux don't even use the shell. Beginner-friendly Linux distros are perfectly usable without ever touching a terminal, just as most people use Windows without ever touching PowerShell (or worse, the Registry Editor).

It's open source, they can just make their own distro.

And that attitude is why Linux is struggling to gain market cap imho.
Yes they can, but maybe we need to embrace those who arent tech saavy?
Saying if you dont like it, go do your own thing is not very welcoming.
We should encourage people to create their own distribution, but maybe welcome people with open arms first, guide them to a flavour that works for them, and then encourage them to learn how to make it exactly what they want
Edit: ~~Market capture~~ > market share
- Market cap? Which stock symbol is it? 😉
- Why, no really tell me why we need to embrace nontechnical Linux users? What exactly does Linux have to gain? Because afaik nontechnical users dont donate, don't contribute, and dont even appreciate the software or the work maintainers put into it (and they complain far more often). Theres always "x feature doesnt work" or "y app isn't compatible" and suddenly "Linux isn't ready yet".
- Haha market cap, market share , they're still all about selling stuff so dont really apply./ Market share is normally measured in share of revenue in most industries.
  There are lots of webpages, tutorials, youtubes and stuff like that for these people already. I'm sure they can also pay companies like canonical for more dedicated support if that's what they need.
  If you want to welcome people, go ahead and do it, nothing stopping you. Create the webpage or forum or youtube channel, distribution, or write the book whatever is missing. Just make sure to moderate it to remove CLI based answers and block users like me.
  "I" exist and I'm sure I'm never going to be part of your "we". The current situation of linux home user base seems just fine to me without pandering to a load of windows users. I think you should work on your desired subculture and keep me out if it. Leave me out of it - i can stay over here under my bridge in linuxmemes wearing my new programming socks.
  For the home market maybe you can look at valve and steamdeck or something as an example of an acessible linux sub-culture. Valve doesn't maintain and support that for free though. It'd be interesting to know how many full time employees they have on steamdeck OS just for the one device (and maybe a few gaming perpherals) and one GUI. Then expand that to all esoteric hardware and all GUIs . . .
  I guess chromeOS and a few forks of that is another similar example - i think that's still linux kernel based - some limitations on hardware i think.
  What I'd actually like to see is B2B growth (for user ) - but I don't think linux will ever be bought by employers like mine - I know how the procurement department operates - and I can't see that changing. There are plenty of people who don't need my support trying business sales, redhat, canonical, suse etc and more power to them - but microsoft didn't get big in B2B by being usable, nor by nor having "no CLI", nor by having a supportive community to home users. They just packaged it in a way that ticked all the boxes for the corpo procurement types - though most B2B customers do need their own dedicated user support.

I'm of the opinion that if you're a newbie to Linux and want to use a more GUI-centric distro, then be my guest, telling someone to jump straight into something like Arch when they're just ditching Windows for the first time is more likely to just turn them off Linux forever.

That said, as said newbie gets more comfortable with the terminal, Arch is there if they want more of a challenge, and even then with archinstall, the main difficult part is effectively nullified, although for more advanced, long-term users, fully manual installation is still there on the Arch ISO as an option, but I'd be more likely to point them to something like Debian or OpenSUSE Tumbleweed to start with as those are generally more beginner-friendly than Arch is.

It's not either-or. You can install KDE on Arch with one button in the archinstall you mentioned, and it will be a GUI based distro, you can happily live moving your mouse around the coloured buttons if that's your fancy.
- The general point I'm trying at is just sending a newbie straight off the deep end instead of letting them in easy to start off with and letting them move on to greater challenges on their own when they feel like they're ready for it, is going to hurt the cause of presenting Linux as a viable Windows or Mac alternative, way more than it'll help it.
  Just pointing someone just ditching Windows or Mac for the first time with no terminal experience at all, straight to Arch, Gentoo, or even Slackware, is only going to fluster them and maybe even piss them off, which the last thing you want to do when introducing someone to a new platform, is alienate them in any way as opposed to welcoming them in, which pointing them straight to a more challenging distro instead of letting them on easy with a more beginner-friendly one and letting them move on to a more challenging one when they're ready for it, will definitely alienate potential new users.
  Think of introducing someone to a new OS platform for the first time, as if you're teaching someone how to draw for the first time, for example, ideally you'd pick fun and simple exercises to teach them the basics before going into the deeper intricacies of the subject matter at a later date if they continue to be interested in the subject matter, pointing a new Linux user to something like Debian or OpenSUSE, or even Mint so they can learn the basics of the OS platform before moving on to a more advanced distro like Arch or Slackware, is the IT equivalent of that.

I have no idea what CLI is. I just use Mint and don't put much thought in.

I think it's the Linux equivalent of Windows Command Prompt.
- Oh, that thing. I have used that in the past, but it's been a while since I've needed to.
- No, it's the general term, as opposed to GUI (graphical user interface). Linux Shell, Windows command prompt and Powershell are all CLI
I had to learn cli and server linuxes as part of uni but i haven't used them for my fedora other than nvidia drivers and things windows users need to install putty and winscp for. It's nice.

I think it's fine to have some less commonly used actions be only accessible through a terminal, even on more user-friendly distros. That is basically what Minecraft does, and yet no one's scared of that.

"The new Windows Terminal is so slick! And PowerShell is soooo awesome! When will Linux get cool neat powerful stuff like this?"
"Uh... About three decades ago?"

(To be honest, PowerShell is neat. But it's also cross platform, so if I really want it on Linux I guess I can get it there too? I don't really need to, I'm in middle of rewriting some PowerShell stuff in Python)

I actually love the cross platform PowerShell stuff for two reasons. One it's really nice to be able to have something that works on my windows environment and the Linux one, and 2 because PowerShell is enormously better than bash.

I'm on Mint, but I still use the terminal to update my flatpaks. I'm just freaky that way 😎

Someday you'll try that over SSH once.
Once.
I have no idea why it is the way it is.

literally just learn CLI, you're actively wasting time by not learning it. It's so hard to describe how utterly beneficial the CLI is to someone who hasn't used it.

Why do people need to learn CLI to watch youtube and write emails? That's all the average computer user does.
- obviously you don't have to, i just recommend, aggressively perhaps, that anybody using linux, should learn the CLI, because it's highly advantageous.
Stop being the person the meme is about
- im correct though.
  You should just learn CLI, if you're already using linux, clearly you desire more than the "it works" approach of windows or macos. Why not improve your life by learning how to better utilize it?
  This is like arguing that you shouldnt have to learn self finance because it's a choice. Sure, but it's an objectively stupid choice.

Linux Mint vs Windows is already enough to learn for a day 1 linux user.

I learned the command line on Sun Solaris Unix in the 90s, after messing with DOS first. At work I have a terminal open all the time, though I'll use GUI versions of some things too.

I use mint btw.

Same here. I always have a terminal open if i need it. I probably split my time 50/50 between GUI and CLI.
not sure why people think it's one or the other when using linux
I use debian, btw

I'm pretty comfortable on the command line, but I also won't hesitate to boot a live disk and # dd if=/dev/zero the main hard drive the moment my gui refuses to load.

Yep, same. The main thing Linux has taught me over the years is to keep good, regular backups of everything important.
I've lost way too much data already by fucking up grub somehow, or by accidentally letting windows overwrite the efi partition or some bullshit. I know how to recover from that now, but back in the day when I was doing dumb shit to my os pretty much every day, I didn't.
That was all 100% my own fault btw
The simple mans solution.

Honestly, the biggest problem I've experienced is that once your colleagues see the CLI on your screen, you are no longer eligible to hold opinions on computers, systems or solutions.

That sounds backwards to me lol
...wat? In what kind of shop are you working?
- ...in the sense that I'm the odd one out - everybody else just uses Outlook, Word and PowerPoint. So whenever I have an opinion about how things should be, they just roll their eyes and go "well, of course you would say that!"
Sounds like a win/win if they no longer come to you for troubleshooting

ITT: Nerds that want mass Linux adoption but don't want to deal with people who don't share their interests and opinions

There's quite some hypocrisy in learning to use windows, its obscure registry and the shady softwares that will tune it while refusing to copy commands in a terminal.

Yeah, but regedit is a GUI. So it's all cool and dandy.

Grew up with ms-dos. Spent half my career in telnet and ssh consoles.

When I just want to play Balatro at the end of a long day fuck any system that requires more than click click to get me in.

That's why I'm switching to Linux when windows 10 is no longer supported because fuck win 11 and the amount of regedits it's gonna take to get that working.

When are you REQUIRED to use cli? The app store works well, many apps have installers, and will be perfect for average users.

Advanced users should already be familiar with CLI and just need to learn a little more.

To be fair the absolute majority of online help posts involve the CLI. Want to change language on my Debian install? It's off to the CLI!
- But they come with instructions usually. Copy paste done.

The year of linux will never come because a lot of people wanna boot up their pc and have it work. Just fire up a program and have work, without looking up workarounds and clis and other stuff.

I made the jump just this month but i can totally understand if someone doesnt wanna do this.

There's a lot of work being poured into Flatpak, which is the way to go forward (most likely coupled with immutable file systems in the future). If this work is done as well as more people contributing to the big desktop environments as Linux becomes gradually more popular there's a good chance we'll see steady success.
But even then this whole culture has to change, and people need to stop lying to themselves how "CLI commands are universal" and such stuff (there are way too many differences between distros). Anyone who, instead of pointing to the corresponding disk utility, by default starts to describe parted or /etc/fstab to people who didn't asked for the harder CLI way is actively alienating people. Not to mention who, in utter unhelpfulness, respond with "why would you want to do that" or "RTFM". As if that'll help anyone (also the manuals are utter garbage as they're almost always written using high-level terminology expecting knowledge no newcomer will understand).
It's indeed "alles extrem belastend".
It is really only a meme
So what do those people do when their Windows machine doesn't just work and applications require a workaround?
- Get angry, frustrated and ask someone who knows. And because more people are using Windows, chances are, they will find the answer way quicker. Also, most programs already run on windows.
  Like when i wanted to set up my Proton Drive on Windows, i just downloaded it and started it.
  On Ubuntu, i had to write a systemd.service to get the program to autostart on starting my machine. Which was fun, but it isnt for a lot of people.
This is how my linux workstation works, for decades.

A meme is a great way to avoid their fury; Lynx doesn't show images.

gatekeeping always helps with conversion rates, keep it up 👍

Yeah. Gatekeeping by selling your product for free. Guess how much an Apple/Microsoft engineer makes vs a Linux one. Lmao.
- the post is literally about gatekeeping what the fuck are you even taking about
Yes because we're not a religion, conversion rates as a measurement of Linux success is silly
- who said anything about success, that sounds needlessly defensive
  are you pretending that more people using linux wouldn't be beneficial for linux

BTW, yast exists. I use it if I'm to lazy to research how stuff works.

I just installed Tumbleweed on my laptop alongside my main install (arch btw) to try it out, but I haven't had a chance to mess with yast yet.
- Enjoy, but don't expect to fix stuff as I haven't experienced any issues yet.

An at least superficial understanding of the cli is an essential part of using linux. If you don't ever want to use a cli, what are you doing pursuing linux? Do you just want a free version of windows? Go pirate windows.

I pursue Linux because I want a FOSS OS and its privacy and security benefits, not because I want to tinker and learn the CLI.
I mean, I do want to tinker and I have learned the CLI but it's not why I pursue Linux.
- I guess I should have written "If you want to never have to use a cli" instead of "If you don't ever want to use a cli", as I didn't mean you have to want to use a cli to use linux. I meant that one has to be OK with using a cli, accepting of the fact that they have to use a cli.

I run 2 systems. One is HTPC with LM, the other is dual boot Windows / bazzite. I like LM and bazzite. I like it very much. But maaaaan, I had problems setting up.

LM was totally fine except for when I was trying to set up pihole, screwed some steps and tried to remove it by terminal. It somehow corrupted OS so every time I'd try to login it would crash and prompt to login again. So far it is running fine but I had issues with pihole again when I tried to update it to v6. This time it corrupted pihole itself but I have managed to restore and update it. I guess reason is that pihole doesn't support LM put of the box and requires some tinkering to install.

Bazzite, on the other hand, is totally fine now. I guess that was something related to a recent update. But before that it wouldn't load. Like screen would be black but terminal would be still accessible. I have figured out that it would crash loading gaming mode and stuck there (but I didn't tell it to boot to gaming mode) so I had to manually make it boot to desktop mode (kde) in terminal every time. If you think that I have screwed something up again - nope. Fresh install on a separate ssd. It installs and then would reuse to boot or boot after like half an hour into kde. All the rpm ostree -update or -upgrade did nothing.

I love these both systems but maaaaan if a basic user has to experience what I had, they'd stick to mac/windows for the rest of their life.

Linux is meant for power users

Sure you can use it for just browsing the web but that's not its strong point

That's entirely untrue.
That's like saying Windows is meant for Visual Studio developers. You could use other IDEs but that's not its strong point.
- Cars are meant for race drivers.
  Sure you can use them to just buy groceries but that's not their strong point. /s
linux enables powerusers, which also enables a foundation for everyday users, which enables a foundation for learning and education of those users.
- I never said that it couldn't be used by someone who isn't a power user. In reality I think anyone can be a power user on Linux as it is fairly accessible and easy to learn. You don't need to be some crazy wizard to use the command line.
This is the kinda BS that scares away new users. You're objectively wrong, bud.
- Linux makes it fairly easy to be a power user even if you aren't super technical. Linux puts you in the drivers seat.
  In reality anyone can be a power user
People will disagree and downvote but objectively you are correct. Who makes the software for linux? Who maintains distributions? Who contributes to OSS? Who donates to OSS software? Who maintains distro wikis? And when these people do it they make it with whom in mind? The answer is simple, its power users who make it primarily with power users in mind. Thats why Linux has more maintainers, more contributors, and more software engineers, than professional software/UX designers (call it a bad thing but thats what it is)

I was today years old when I realized that "just works" has nothing to do with the interface kind. If it works, it works, that's it.

I just installed garuda and update via their built in update command