Which part of DEI do you hate?
Which part of DEI do you hate?
148 comments
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Same thing as when old people said they were against Antifa or antifa was causing violence. Anti Fascist. You don't support the Anti Fascists. Are you ok with the Fascists then? Shuts the boomers up because they remember daddy fought the Fascists even if their lead addled brains can't remember what that is
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It's not civil rights, it's woke
It's not anti intellectualism, it's anti woke.
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I mean, branding doesn't always accurately describe a group. It does in this case, antifa is indeed anti-fascist, but people love to say the National Socialist party were socialists because "it's right there in the name!" You know, despite "First they came for the socialists..."
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Unfortunately, they'll just claim it's a "newspeak" term...
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I think it's important to distinguish between diversity, equity, and inclusion as CONCEPTS and DEI as an organization and initiative.
It is possible to be pro- diversity, equity, and inclusion and be opposed to mismanaged efforts in DEI as a PROGRAM.
This post assumes that DEI as a government initiative is working perfectly and has no downsides, presenting it in a way that closes it off to criticism.
Does every system have to be perfect? Of course not. It's better to have a system pushing for good that's imperfect than none at all, but framing it like this is gaslighting and hurts discussion on both sides.
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It's even worse in the corporate world. That acronym is usually attached to consultants who would extort huge fees and not really do much of anything towards actual inclusion, equity, or diversity. It would let the company check a box for PR, though.
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to mismanaged efforts in DEI
such as?
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That's not what this post assumes. This post is aimed at those using DEI as a dog whistle for their disgusting bigotry. Present all the nuance you want but if you're missing that then you're turning a blind eye to the blatant racism gaining power and leverage in the US gov today.
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Respectfully I disagree. I think the way the argument is presented here discourages open discussion
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I think diversity and inclusion is a net benefit to society, I don't think government is capable to enforce diversity and inclusion in private spaces in any real way. Over time I think market forces will result in that diversity naturally as the companies who hire the best qualified people incisively do better than those who prioritize traits that don't create better outcomes
I'm not sure what equity is in the context of government enforcement but I'm 100% for equality if opportunity. Maybe someone can help me understand equity in the context of these programs: for instance, what equity programs was Biden promoting for the previous for years?
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If you're opposed to DOGE, does that mean you're opposed to efficiency in government?
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Do you support democracy?
If so then that must mean you support the DPRK.
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Yes. Emphatically so.
The more efficient government is, the easier it is to usurp power.
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If you’re opposed to DOGE It's like people think that neither side has ever created groups to review efficiency in the government.
You create a task force, review the target, make suggestions, argue them, bring the outcome to congress and then force people to act.
You don't run around firing people for not bending the knee, locking departments who you don't have control over out of their systems and install half baked command an control systems all over the money handling departments.
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Reminds me of the "Lets Go Brandon" crap.
Like, if you really dislike Biden, just say "Fuck Joe Biden.". I have zero issue saying "Fuck Trump," because, fuck trump.
Locally in Illinois there were also these signs everywhere that said "Pritzker Sucks" in huge letters, then at the bottom in tiny print "the life out of small business."
Like seriously, I am less disgusted by your stance, than I am about your pussy ass lack of conviction.
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That wasn't the point of the "Let's Go Brandon" crap. At all.
Then yeah the Pritzker Sucks...the life out of small businesses is a simple double-play, a cheeky "gotcha". Not a lack of conviction at all.
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I broke out my thesaurus, so anti diversity, equity and inclusion would be conformity, discrimination and segregation. Does that sound about right?
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How about Uniformity, Segregation, and Adversity? I think we can get people on board with our new USA programs.
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I like how this horrible acronym spells out U. S. A.
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Conformity, Patronage and Exclusion.
I like the word conformity, because that's really what they want. They're afraid of anybody who acts different, or who has different viewpoints. They want a world where nobody ever makes them feel uncomfortable. If they enjoy making racist jokes, they want a world where everybody finds racist jokes funny, not one where they can be made to feel bad, or feel like their boss might get mad for telling a racist joke.
Patronage isn't the exact opposite of equity. Equity in this context is about impartiality and fairness. But, I think Patronage fits because it describes the kind of system you get when there is no effort whatsoever to give every candidate a fair shot. Instead you get good-old-boys networks, you get nepotism, etc.
Segregation is pretty good for the last one, but I like exclusion a bit more. To me, segregation implies that there might be an alternative place for someone that's "separate but equal", but the reality is they don't care if that other place exists. The key thing is to be able to exclude them from their own workplaces, sports, etc.
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A friend of mine used to do food runs for his office, where about 40% of the employees were black. The team voted on what they wanted, and they almost always chose Wing Stop because it was popular. Despite this, he was called into a meeting and accused of racial profiling for bringing "fried chicken" to a mostly black workplace. This experience reflects the way DEI programs often operate. They focus almost excessively on race, and identity, and thrive on controversy.
Originally, these initiatives created programs where people who came to companies did so to fix the issues and leave. Apparently that didn't work./ Instead, they’ve become permanent fixtures in workplaces, incentivized to perpetuate problems rather than solve them. With their continued presence, they encourage reporting and policing of behavior, creating a culture of fear and compliance rather than genuine inclusion.
DEI initiatives have failed. They've been in place for several years, yet we always hear constant rhetoric that racism and discrimination is becoming more of a problem? Instead, these programs have probably radicalized more people than any fringe political group. Many now define their views in opposition to their perceived opponents rather than on principles.
Ironically, DEI encourages prejudice. I’ve personally been told to create a bias in favor of minorities to combat existing bias, which only results in a new form of discrimination; it doesn't eliminate the existing biases. The approach based on "privilege" encouraged me to assume all black people are disadvantaged and all white people are privileged and implicitly biased. Guilt and shame are used as tools to enforce conformity, pressuring people to adopt a specific moral stance while condemning those who don’t. People are praised for being sanctimonious. It's become popular to call out others while simultaneously making self-righteous shows of one's own behavior.
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That's not what DEI even is. Ironically DEI and affirmative action was used in only a few select places that were historically so opposed to anyone from a minority group that they HAD to have some others be put in order to allow people with qualifications and aren't white to enter.
If you want to know the reality of a what a world without DEI looks like, look at what Trump and the republicans have been doing for the past 20 years. They aren't concerned with qualifications or 'meritocracy' despite their ceaseless whining about it. They are the ones actually pulling an actual agenda and will only hire people willing to push it, even if they do so very badly.
If you think Pete Hegseth is qualified as secretary of defense, then you aren't concerned with qualifications.
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Everything about this post reeks of racism.
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Fried chicken and watermelon are southern food, not black food. My partner is from the south, white, and we often eat things like red beans and rice, gumbo and cornbread, etc. Her grandad often brought watermelon into work, because he grew them and wanted to share it with his colleagues. Food isn't a racial thing it's a regional thing. Pisses me off when people refer to black food or white food. I personally regard lamb vindaloo as the best savoury food that has ever been made. I'm not Indian. Sorry for going off topic.
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I mean I certainly don’t oppose getting rid of DEI but let’s not be haste in assuming what something is called is actually what it is.
Is North Korea a Democracy? They are called the DPRK no? Democratic people’s republic?
Edit: Meant to say I do oppose getting rid of DEI. English is hard
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don't oppose getting rid of DEI
I want to double check, did you mean to write that, or did you get lost in the negations?
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Haha yes I meant to say I do oppose getting rid of DEI. Thanks lol.
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As someone outside of the US, all I can see is people fighting over who has a right to a job and who doesn't, while the rich hoard wealth. DEI wouldn't be an issue if there was a safety net, maybe with UBI based on the minimum liveable wage, public housing, public education, public healthcare and government grants to start small business ventures.
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Europe is top of the world despite seeing communism first hand. Once you get rid of the ethnic cleansing, genocide, authoritarianism and planned economy, there's a lot of social policies that work great and are cheaper than american style.
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This is also why "woke" becoming a common word was bad for both sides. Not only is it nonspecific, but it starts to mean different things to different people and diverges over time. It's easier to demonize something with a nonspecific meaning for exactly that reason.
There's a meme that says "everything I don't like is woke", and while it's funny, that's literally the process that happens when such terms become catchalls -- what they catch depends on what any individual speaker wants out of using it.
With DEI, the process has been the same. I wouldn't be surprised if there are many people who believe it's bad (because they were told that and lack critical thinking skills) and may not even know what the acronym stands for.
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Reminds me of that time (as if it was only once) a depressing amount of people, mostly conservatives, didn't know that the ACA and "Obamacare" mean the same thing.
Conservative politics depend heavily on placing labels on everything because it's a built-in way of telling the rubes what they should think and feel.
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You know what, let's give it a shot. 3 things I dislike.
- Equity based on gender or skin color. So many people pretend that somehow one average working class person should be put ahead in line compared to another, if the other person has the same skin color as some unrelated asshole slaver whose descendants still profit from their riches.Most of you would probably agree that a world where the majority are exploited by a few billionaires is not equitable just because the billionaires are diverse. So why push policies that pretend all is equitable as long as you give a few minorities preferential treatment.Not only does it not make any real sense, but more importantly, it is divisive. No person struggling in this f**ked up economy wants to hear they should be even worse of, because they have the same skin color as the billionaires exploiting them and they should feel ashamed for that. I would not be surprised if these ideas are intentionally pushed by the rich to divide the working class people and turn them on each other.
- Bringing people down in the name of Equity. Equity is definitely what we should strive for, but by lifting disadvantaged people up, not tearing "privileged" people down. The whole message that you should be ashamed for not being disadvantaged is ridiculous to me. Maybe you should be ashamed if you are in a privileged position and you refuse to use it to help the disadvantaged, but just be ashamed of privilege period is a wild take to me. We should be aiming to make everyone privileged enough that they don't have to fear being shot every time they see a cop, that they can make a living wage, ...If your movements/policies are hostile towards the very people whose support can help you most, then no wonder you can't make any progress and radicals like Trump take advantage of the divisiveness.
- Low quality diversity in media. Adding diverse characters to media should ideally be like adding trees. You add them when it makes sense without even thinking about it and don't add them when it doesn't make sense. We should work slowly and carefully towards that goal. Unfortunately, so many movies, shows and games have tried to awkwardly add diversity with no regard for how it negatively affects the enjoyability of the product. So your goal presumably was to make diverse people feel included and to normalize diversity in peoples mind. But the result for minorities often is that they repeatedly see character like them being badly and lazily written, either by having no proper character beyond being diverse or conversely feel like straight cis white character that just happens to mention they are diverse. On the other hand, the majority just sees these poorly made products and associate diversity and DEI with bad products. So failure on both goals. The answer is of course quality over quantity. It may take a while to get where we want to be, but it will get there without making things even worse with good intentions.By the way, there of course are great examples of well made diverse shows, but they are drowned out by the slop. My favorite example is the Owl house. The plot of the first episode is literally about being captured and placed into "the conformatorium" for being different and then escaping and dismantling the place. And it did this so smoothly I did not even realize there was any messaging in it until long after seeing it.
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So how do you account for the fact that, in many instances where a white person and a black person have the exact same qualifications, the white person will be far more likely to be hired?
How do you account for the fact that many people who are racial minorities aren't born into families that can afford things like living in a house that doesn't have leaded paint on the walls, meaning that a black person who has the exact same qualifications as a white person has had to work a lot harder to overcome their disadvantages to get those qualifications?
How do you account for the fact that diverse teams of individuals simply produce better results in the free market than homogeneous ones as a result of their more varied viewpoints?
There are so many reasons why "equity based on gender or skin color" for hiring and college applications and so on is absolutely necessary to address the inequities in our society, and why the baby steps that we've made since the civil rights movement haven't been nearly enough to address the problems that they were meant to address. Frankly we should be talking about reparations in the form of just straight up giving large swathes of land and fat stacks of cash to certain groups, especially African Americans and American Indians, not these piddly little affirmative action programs that only kind of exist in colleges but everyone assumes exist everywhere else too.
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Nobody is brought down in the name of equity. What is brought down are the systems that privilege certain people based on aspects of themselves that they cannot control. If you think that tearing down white supremacy and patriarchy is the same as tearing down white people and men, then you need to ask yourself why you think that those groups of people are inseparable from their privileges
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No argument here, Hollywood has always had lazy and awful shit and their attempts at lazy and awful inclusion are bad. Often the very groups that Hollywood directors purport to represent come out hard against bad representation too - like that french trans cartel leader film that just came out where the director said he didn't bother researching Mexico or Mexican culture before making a film that takes place there and where everyone speaks Spanish really badly.
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So how do you account for the fact that, in many instances where a white person and a black person have the exact same qualifications, the white person will be far more likely to be hired?
By making policies to prevent that. Color blind policies. Just don't swing all the way to racist in the other direction.
How do you account for the fact that many people who are racial minorities aren't born into families that can afford things like living in a house that doesn't already have leaded paint on the walls, meaning that a black person who has the exact same qualifications as a white person has had to work a lot harder to overcome their disadvantages to get those qualifications?
I answered this question in my original comment. By helping people based on their situation, not skin color. There are rich black people. There are poor white people. Extremely poor people need support, rich people don't. Skin color is irrelevant.
There are so many reasons why "equity based on gender or skin color" for hiring and college applications and so on is absolutely necessary to address the inequities in our society, and why the baby steps that we've made since the civil rights movement haven't been nearly enough to address the problems that they were meant to address.
Sure, baby steps are slow. Cheating with this "affirmative action discrimination" hides the underlying issues while making them significantly worse. The white people they discriminate against are largely not the same people who profiteered on slavery and discrimination. You are just creating a new group of disadvantaged and oppressed people and push them towards raising up against your policies and to hate the people who benefit on their expense. This is what Trump took advantage of to win despite most people knowing what a shitty person he is.
Frankly we should be talking about reparations in the form of just straight up giving large swathes of land and fat stacks of cash to certain groups, especially African Americans and American Indians, not these piddly little affirmative action programs that only kind of exist in colleges but everyone assumes exist everywhere else too.
You are not entirely wrong, but there is a reason statues of limitations exist. Good luck finding the people who perpetuated and profited from racism and slavery or the people that were directly hurt. And making random rich white people, or even worse working people pay for it will cause so many more issues than it solves. I think it is too late to do this.
Nobody is brought down in the name of equity.
Maybe you don't do that, which, good for you. Many people do that. I don't like people who do that. If you don't do that, why are you so defensive?
What is brought down are the systems that privilege certain people based on aspects of themselves that they cannot control.
I explicitly wrote we should do that.
No argument here, Hollywood has always had lazy and awful shit and their attempts at lazy and awful inclusion are bad. Often the very groups that Hollywood directors purport to represent come out hard against bad representation too - like that french trans cartel leader film that just came out where the director said he didn't bother researching Mexico or Mexican culture before making a film that takes place there and where everyone speaks Spanish really badly.
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Nobody is brought down in the name of equity. What is brought down are the systems that privilege certain people based on aspects of themselves that they cannot control.
I'm not sure if this is a "DEI" issue or not, but businesses are bringing people down in the name of equity. A lot of colleges are charging $200k+ for tuition now, and they have programs where if your family's income is low enough they (supposedly) will waive a lot of it, but if your family is middle class you have to pay full tuition, which is something many of them cannot afford. Meanwhile this is not a barrier for wealthy people, so it's effectively making most people equally poor and barely able to afford CoL while the rich get richer rather than actually fixing the problem. I've heard that other businesses are starting to use similar tactics as well.
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I appreciate your comment. I feel that DEI in its current form has a lot of things to hate about it. However I usually don't say anything because I'm worried someone will just call me a Nazi or something.
I'm a Jewish democrat, but as a white man I feel like I'm basically guilty of original sin in these types of conversations.
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I know what you mean. The whole being incredibly hostile to like minded people over minor disagreements is it's own massive issue, but let's only open one can of worms at a time.
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Hey! I have a story on this to tell, which I will make as anonymous as possible:
Someone I know in an administrative position is in the middle of dealing with an employee who is suddenly refusing to do annual DEI training, claiming that it is against their religious beliefs. They were brought in and given a chance to defend that. Asked what specifically about DEI went against their beliefs. They started spouting a bunch of Fox News crap.
It was pointed out to them that DEI means things like making sure disabled people can get over a raised doorway. The employee said they were fine with that, but went into a whole "gay marriage is sinful" sort of rant. They were told they don't have to agree with such things, just respect them at work. And they said that was great and one of the things they loved about working there.
Basically, it turned out that they had zero issues with any of the actual DEI policies. They literally objected to those three letters being used.
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Probably why they latch on to “woke” to and they never fully explain what’s so woke about the subject
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If only DEI was that literal. Instead, it allowed companies to discriminate based on race, but to those with left-leaning beliefs, that's okay as long as it only negatively affects white people, because they deserve it!
Somehow "diversity" doesn't seem to mean diversity of thinking, but of skin color, so you have a room full of left-wing minorities that all think the same way and have the same beliefs.
It's like when Reddit mods say that their subreddit is all about "inclusion" and "diversity", and then right below that they say Trump supporters or voters aren't allowed. The irony is crazy. I hope this platform is less of an echo-chamber but I expect downvotes because apparently you can't support open source decentralized platforms without being a leftist?
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If only DEI was that literal. Instead, it allowed companies to discriminate based on race, but to those with left-leaning beliefs, that’s okay as long as it only negatively affects white people, because they deserve it!
That's a lot of talking with very little to back it up.
I'd like some actual instances of companies that have specifically not hired a qualified candidate because they were white.
And "those with left-leaning beliefs". That's me, hand in the air and proud of it. "as it only negatively affects white people, because they deserve it" You're chatting shit mate. That's not what I or any of my "left leaning" friends believe.
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Sounds like you're a normal lefty. Nice! Maybe I'm spending too much time on Reddit because the political opinions there are very extreme, it's probably giving me a more negative view of the left
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It's like when Reddit mods say that their subreddit is all about "inclusion" and "diversity", and then right below that they say Trump supporters or voters aren't allowed.
look up the paradox of tolerance
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Right, but I would argue Trump voters by default aren't "intolerant". Over half the country voted for him, and I don't think half the country is intolerant. I think there are extremes on both the left and right that are a vocal minority, and most normal people fall on either the left or right but aren't extreme or hateful about their beliefs.
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that’s okay as long as it only negatively affects white people, because they deserve it!
As a white guy, I didn't know that black people were getting the jobs that I deserved based on the color of my skin. Please do go on about how someone else who is also qualified took my potential job that was supposed to go a white guy.
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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
- Not Voltaire -
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Christian heterosexual white man. Can't have any of those minority religions, or worse atheists, sneaking in.
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If you hate the PATRIOT act...etc. Look, titles of things have no bearings on what they actually are. This post is just group masturbation.
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I've seen the Right's answer to DEI.
They deny that there is/was inequality so they claim that pushing equality gives an unfair advantage.
They say that any perceived inequality is the lack in the sum of experience and expertise.
They say that forced inclusion is unfair on the meritocracy of others.
They also tend to think that racism and sexism are overblown because they are incapable of believing (or it is otherwise too inconvenient for them to believe) that other people actually have problems if they don't themselves experience them.
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I'm sorry to say that their answer will be something along the lines of "I ain't workin' with no n**s or fs!". We should stop trying to assume that fascists hold themselves to the same moral standards as normal people. These are people who only abstain from using racial and homophobic slurs for fear of legal trouble. They no longer have to fear that.
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I don't like DEI cause I think human rights, equality and equal opportunity should come default nowardays, rather than be a thing people need to rally behind and hope it gets passed as law in a few decades.
If an demented felon child diddler trans woman and an african nazi with mental defeciencies can run a country, why can't a trans black woman write some code?
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Because the felon child diddler and african nazi with mental defeciencies (using your spelling) are the ones who have always been in charge and are simply the ones who want to make sure that only child diddlers and nazis who also look like them are in charge.
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why can’t a trans black woman write some code
It isn't about them not being able to, it's about them having a chance to do so in a company.
Yet, company after company maintain one or two black people on staff when they're in areas that are 20% black.
You bring them in, give them experience so that in future generations they have the same opportunities due to work experience.
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I've heard the E as both Equity and Equality. Anyone know which it's supposed to be?
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The way it was explained to me is, equality is giving everyone equal support. Equity is allocating support unevenly to those who need it most.
Those who advocate meritocracy in bad faith really don't like equity.
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Or you could ask them if they know what DEI stands for.
Spoiler Alert: They don't.
They love hating acronyms and nicknames repeated by their media sources that they know literally nothing about.
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They know what it stands before, but if you ask them to drop the mask they'll start saying racial slurs.
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I'm am strongly opposed to diversity. We should stop using Windows and macOS and create a monoculture by standardizing on Linux.
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You almost got it. GNU/Linux. TFTFY
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The alternatives to DEI are:
Conformity Inequity Exclusion
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I am on your side, but:
You do realize that can totally go the other way, right?
The AFD implements a "ministry of crime-prevention" that surveils the public and squashes political discent. Names don't necessarily reflect what's actually happening. You should argue with actual policies they did.
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This 1000%. Stop separating your words from their meanings.
Say what you mean and mean what you say.
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They don't like any of them, because those are the concepts that defeated the Nazis.
They were defeated by a group of countries (diversity), which allowed anyone to join (inclusivity) and didn't think they were better than others (equity).
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Haha, nice one.
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- I support diversity, equity and inclusion in giving people the chance to get a good education and achieve good outcomes through their own efforts (with good teacher and mentor support).
- For things that are beyond secondary education, I support a race-blind color-blind culture-blind meritocracy where the best qualified people should be admitted to universities and jobs (private or public sector).
These are my ideals. But with that said, today we have none of these in the US. And never had it. Also people and systems created by people are imperfect but people are good at finding loop holes and ways to game any system.
But I still think our best hope is to do our best to support #1. We have the funds to make schools in poor neighborhoods better and pay all teachers more. The outcome of doing #1 will not be felt immediately, it will take generations.
Neither side of the political spectrum does or care about that though.
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They probably just think DEI and Affirmative Action are one in the same. I get critiquing the latter cuz it's a bandaid solution to systemic problems. Solving those would go a long way to fixing the rest of everything wrong with America. Ofc that's not quite what they have in mind and we all know that
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As far as I understand, DEI as a policy in a university or workplace means giving place to a candidate because not of their merits or test scores, but because of their race or background.
Isn't that racism?
Be gentle, am not USian.
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Often times merit is viewed differently. If 2 students both have a 4.0 GPA and 1 has more extra curriculars, and the other had to work instead because they come from a poorer family and needed to help support the family, which has more merit? If being able to stay after every day for practice and afford travel expenses for such means you have more merit, then the rich will always have the advantage to appear with more merit. I would say the person who worked 30 hours a week while maintaining a 4.0 GPA has worked harder and overcome higher odds.
There is more to merit than just numbers in my opinion. Some of it does appear like racism from the outside because if the average black family has less opportunities and you try to give more opportunities to new generations to help close the wealth gap, then you are being called racist by your initial definition.
There are valid points on both sides. DEI in my opinion helps integrate races, sexes, cultures, religions together which provides long term benefits and disincentivizes hatred. If you never come in contact with someone, it is easier to hate them. Easier to commit crimes against them. Ultimately a big portion of DEI is about educating the population to get along with and accept those who may appear or act differently than you do. It may appear easier for an African American to get into Harvard, but they are still less than 7% of the population there while being over 12% of the U.S. population total. There are other factors always at play standing in the way of comparing 2 people just off a single number.
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opportunities to new generations to help close the wealth gap
So... New age trickle down economics instead of making stronger labor law and helping workers take part of the wealth stolen by the rich?
Thank you for the explanation. It was informative, even if some of it sounds... irrelevant?
It may appear easier for an African American to get into Harvard, but they are still less than 7% of the population there while being over 12% of the U.S. population total.
It's harder for African American folks to go to Harvard because of wealth disparity as you explained, but the suggestion there should be a proportional number of races in Harvard is (benevolently) racist.
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The biggest issue with this take is that merit/test score is still the biggest factor. For example, a law firm is not passing over well-qualified white candidates to hire unqualified black candidates, they're just trying to hire more well-qualified black candidates because they're currently an all-white firm. Nobody is ever getting a job as an act of charity, and typically it just helps to avoid implicit hiring bias. To go back to the example, why has the law firm become all white? Well the first two partners were white, and even if they aren't offensively racist they still have enough internal bias that they only hired other white workers. Like in this example, most DEI initiatives are about reducing existing internal biases.
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As far as I understand, DEI as a policy in a university or workplace means giving place to a candidate because not of their merits or test scores, but because of their race or background.
Isn’t that racism?
This is the distorted mudslinging version. It may not be what you intended, but it's what you've learned via right wing propaganda.
DEI seeks to correct biases that have been inherent in US hiring practices for years - things as fundamental as "if your name sounds too black you don't get called for interviews as often, even with the same qualifications". (Linked literally the first article I found about it, but there are plenty more, and this is just an easy example.)
Some of these biases come from people actually being bigots, but some of them come from "that's just how we've always done it" or even just simple unconscious bias that we all have.
Some of the shitty outcomes are from the fact that in the early, early foundational days of many aspects of US government and law, the country was by and large run by people who weren't too unhappy about lynchings of black people or even participated themselves, and those attitudes found their way overtly and subtly into many practices and regulations that remain in place to this day.
It's a complicated topic deeply interwoven with our history, our geography, and our culture.
DEI initiatives aren't perfect, and like anything else you have individuals who may misapply or overzealously apply their principles, causing a different sort of problem.
But the Republican/Conservative objections to them are, like the Conservative assessments of literally any topic I can think of, based at best upon a shallow, incomplete understanding of cherrypicked details, (see comment from @badmin@lemm.ee below) and at worst based on exactly the bigotry and racism they shout about not having in their hearts despite their every action proving how untrue that is.
Edited to add - DEI isn't limited to racism, and racism isn't limited to black people. There is of course sexism, homophobia, etc in there as well. But this is a comment on a forum, not a research paper, and the more dimensions we try to add to the discussion here, the more complicated it will get. So I focused on racism against black folks because it's an easily visible, and sadly, familiar topic.
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US (and many other nations) corporate and education systems have long given preferential treatment/selection to white employees and students, to the point where the more qualified candidate was passed by due to their ethnicity. There's further issues that stem from the same sources, such as banks refusing to loan to Afro-Americans at a disproportionate rate, even with high wages and a more stable income, being refused even an interview because your name doesn't sound white enough despite being the most qualified applicant, etc etc etc.
DEI being implemented in a way that chooses non-white, women, differently abled, or LGBTQ+ simply to check a box and have diversity to point to is a real issue, but these places weren't ever really interested in leveling the playing field. They were concerned about optics. Like the 90s movie/tv cliché of the group of popular pretty girls having the one "fat and ugly" friend in the group to show that they're inclusive, to make themselves look and feel better.
DEI if implemented properly strips the unconscious and systemic bias in American (and other countries) systems to overlook better candidates for white, straight men.
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Diversity refers to the presence of variety within the organizational workforce, such as in identity and identity politics. It includes gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, disability, age, culture, class, religion, or opinion.
Equity refers to concepts of fairness and justice, such as fair compensation and substantive equality. More specifically, equity usually also includes a focus on societal disparities and allocating resources and "decision making authority to groups that have historically been disadvantaged", and taking "into consideration a person's unique circumstances, adjusting treatment accordingly so that the end result is equal."
Finally, inclusion refers to creating an organizational culture that creates an experience where "all employees feel their voices will be heard", and a sense of belonging and integration.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity,_equity,_and_inclusion
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There is a manifesto that is literally titled the "The Post-Meritocracy Manifesto" which a lot of people unironically agreed with, at least when those were hot topics a few years ago.
So any attempt at pretending that there isn't an anti-meritocracy angle to this would be disingenuous to say the least.
That same person behind the manifesto is a primary figure in introducing CoC's to software projects btw.
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So any attempt at pretending that there isn’t an anti-meritocracy angle to this would be disingenuous to say the least.
DEI initiatives aren’t perfect, and like anything else you have individuals who may misapply or overzealously apply their principles, causing a different sort of problem.
To deny that, or to pretend that such misapplication is the typical mainstream application of DEI principles, would be equally disingenuous.
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I was going to say this sounds a lot like the conservative strawman that postmodernism means the total rejection of objective reality.
Then I read the post-meritocracy manifesto and wow some of those "our values" bullet points are facepalm worthy.
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I seem to recall Trump wanting to end the divisiveness of inclusiveness and somehow people just accepted him saying that
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Donald Elon Intercourse
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That explains Trump's problem with it. He can't stand the idea he'd be the bottom.
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Counterpoint: the phrase first proposed by Serj Tankian, an armenian biblical scholar, reading 'When Angels deserve to DEI', implies that even the God's very servants strive to have DEI programs used in their hiring and career proposals.
Why are you snorting blood my friend, did I say something wrong?
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This is a stupid take, equally as stupid as saying "I'm not pro BLM because I believe that all lives matter" (for the same reason)
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They would unironically say those out loud if they didn’t think people would judge them, maybe not in so many words though.
If you’re lucky enough to grow up in a heavily conservative family that has a 4th of July weeklong party with all of the extended family parking their RVs and tents on the lawn, then you would also know this as a fact
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I hate inclusive.
I'll never be in the MAGA(neo-Nazis) group.
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oh snap! I know this doesn't really contribute to the conversation but.. I know Jive! he's a real good dude. went to school with my older brothers. love to see him still spreading positivity. big ups, daft purk!
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implying you can shame conservatives
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I oppose affirmative action. Change my mind (if you disagree and want to)
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Affirmative action is just an attempt to counter the existing systemic bias against minorities and women. It doesn't bypass any requirements, it just makes it so that fewer hiring/accepting decisions are "just hire a white guy" because that is literally how many hiring decisions are made.
A white kid born to rich parents that can afford all the extra curriculars and who had personal tutors and was able to do an unpaid internship and has connections has an advantage on paper even without knowing the color of their skin. Affirmative action just means that someone who is far less likely to have those advantages but otherwise meets the minimum criteria gets a chance too.
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I don't see affirmative action as fundamentally bad. Applied correctly and not too heavy-handedly, the privileged will still have equal opportunity to enroll or get the job, per amount of effort they put in, etc. And even if it is a bit too strong, their privilege will most likely make up for it in other ways.
In practice though, it's highly susceptible to backfire effects and is usually on the wrong side of "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". You can't expect someone who grew up malnourished, undereducated and generally mistreated by society to suddenly bounce back and become a "model citizen" when they get a good job or scholarship, statistically speaking.
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I mostly like DEI. But I'm concerned that it is running cover for corporations. DEI is not about expanding opportunities to people evenly. DEI is about expanding opportunities to people that make the company more money. DEI alone is not enough for a fair and equitable society.
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Diversity, yes. Get everyone involved.
Equity. Fairness and equality. The entire diverse population should have the same opportunities.
Inclusion. Er. Isn't this covered by the above two? I'm not against it but isn't the word redundant?
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I hate it empowering the face eating of itself: Or once again fascists benefiting from DEI to.....abolish DEI.
Can we do anything with:
Like we report Let's Encrypt+ISRG for being DEI!! Would their certs expire then? 😣
Are their Re-captchas having a cert issue?
548 Market St, PMB 77519, San Francisco, CA 94104-5401, USA Send all mail or inquiries to: PO Box 18666, Minneapolis, MN 55418-0666, USA
https://www.abetterinternet.org/
548 Market St, PMB 77519, San Francisco, California 94104-5401 Send all mail or inquiries to: PO Box 18666, Minneapolis, MN 55418-0666, USA
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You can tell the argument is empty when all that is needed in retort is "no u".
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Imagine getting upset from just seeing something and telling others to "get a thicker skin" and saying they're not allowed to enjoy games.
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What specific changes in games have you so mad? Do tell. I've only been a gamer my whole life, but I suppose not wanting to be called a retarded tranny is just too much to ask
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Mate one of my favourite games as a kid was tomb raider. My poor ass had more of a problem with her being rich than female. Go taste some fucking glass!
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148 comments
'Diversity hire' is the old derogatory term that implies someone is unqualified and only hired because of their skin color or genitals, so they already openly hate diversity.
They don't know what equity means. They probably think it means equality, and they hate that too because in their minds equality requires giving up their relative standing in society.
They hate inclusion because they hate diversity.
The meme is though provoking for someone who already understands the concepts and is useful for bringing awareness to 3rd parties who are otherwise apathetic. It won't make the person who is put on the spot reconsider their opinion, but that's because they are morons who fell for the anti-DEI propaganda.
"WELL I DON'T LIKE IT WHEN THEY WON'T HIRE WHITE PEOPLE WHO ARE MORE QUALIFIED"
They genuinely believe that white men are at a significant disadvantage in the workforce because DEI hires. No amount of memes or conversation will convince them how ridiculous that is.
So funny story, my department had an employee survey and one of the questions that triggered a need for "team discussion" was:
"Do all people, regardless of race and gender, have good opportunities in our workplace?"
Evidently one person in the department said "no, they do not". So I'm sitting there wondering "oh crap, we are a bunch of white men except one woman and one black guy, which of those two have felt screwed over due to race or gender". But no, an older white guy proudly spoke up saying there's no room for white men at the workplace, that white men are disadvantaged. In a place that's like 90% white men...
Because they already believe that you are better because you are white. So two people with equal qualifications, the white is more qualified in their eyes.
The whole premise of equity is that there is a desired demography of people in a given position, and that positive action should be taken to approach or maintain the desired demography and that qualification, ability and merit are secondary to that. Meaning it doesn't matter who is better, so long as someone is good enough and the right race or sex they should have preference. Don't hire the best person, hire the best black person or woman or whatever the desired demographic is (sometimes these will be the same person either way, but not always).
Most of the people who are angry about "DEI" would be fine with things like blind hiring that exclude race/sex from the process entirely but whether or not blind hiring is a valid DEI approach depends on the result - for example a public works department in Australia tried blind hiring to eliminate gender imbalance and killed that project because they found that not knowing the sex of applicants actually reduced the number of women hired which was opposed to the goal (because the goal wasn't to remove discrimination but rather to hire more women).
https://academic.oup.com/esr/article/38/3/337/6412759?login=false
They believe that they’re struggling financially, and statistically many of them are. The better argument is to show them abolishing DEI doesn’t even give them a better chance, and there are better ways to make opportunities for everyone.