Being programmers and what not, are they supposed to be this gullible?
Irony is, those in need of deprogramming the most are the ones into programming. How is it even possible that people that are supposed to be so intelligent/logical/rational are actually this gullible to state's propaganda that they believe it without a shred of doubt.
Intelligence and political awareness aren't correlated. Confrontation with politics in everyday life and political awareness are.
Maybe a hot take, but we really shouldn't be glorifying intelligence the way we do, it has a lot of resemblance to fascist ideology.
The spread in intelligence really isn't that wide. People without clinical impairments or other disorders can specialize in practically whatever field they like. It's primarily just a function of wealth and mental health. What distinguishes 'intelligent' people' from the less intelligent is that, for whatever reason, they have an edge in learning speed. That's it. They're not transcendental beings who somehow have more access to 'the truth' of the universe.
Of course, on the very rare occasion, there are people who excel at very specific tasks but even then that says nothing about their ability to do anything else.
I think intelligence is a completely bullshit concept. There is no such thing as being smarter than someone else.
It's pure white supremacist ideology
I wouldn't go that far. Intelligence is still a physical phenomenon produced by highly complex and somewhat varied systems. There's going to be different levels of intelligence, like there are different levels of empathy, of strength, of immunity, and so on. Strong evidence would be needed to counter this. That doesn't mean people don't exaggerate these differences, look at them too uncritically, or misunderstand both what they are and their origins (which are mostly in child-rearing).
What is more likely bullshit is the concept of "general intelligence" or "G", which is basically an illusion of statistical question-begging that has been very useful to phrenologists and basically no one else.
Great comment, especially the last sentence of the first paragraph.
Intelligence and political awareness aren’t correlated. Confrontation with politics in everyday life and political awareness are.
This makes so much sense. I came into software development after being poor, and that allowed me to insulate myself against some of the crap the lifelong developers buy into.
I grew up middle/upper class, but did not conform to capitalist ideas after high school (Went to college and got a psych degree, was super into science regardless of pay, graduated with no "marketable skills"), of course ended up poor. I went back to college for C.S (Which is lucky I even had that opportunity), bought into the capitalist mindset for awhile, and now I make good money. But that class consciousness (I just never had a term for it until about 6 months ago) never went away, and now that I've discovered what communism actually is, I feel stuck, surrounded by a culture I no longer respect.
We are overpaid to produce useless shit that is overvalued under monopoly capitalism because software as a service is hyper efficient rent seeking. Because we make rich people so much money there is industrial level propaganda to make our work out to be some revolutionary science that will solve all of humanities problems.
Can't agree enough.
industrial level propaganda to make our work out to be some revolutionary science that will solve all of humanities problems.
It's such garbage. Not to mention just the corporate propaganda for other corporations. Not even 'solving humanities problems' but simply just 'how can we revolutionize some fucking bank so that they can fire more people and extract more wealth from the ones left?'. That's what passes for revolutionary in my works garbage view.
I'm a programmer as well, but being good at your job does not mean your political ideas are better as a consequence. It just means you have the capacity for it, not that it's being used.
Also, programmers are paid better, so I'd imagine they would believe we live in a meritocracy and tend to ignore those below them (they don't know they exist).
I'm sure it's not just programmers who have this issue.
I'm sorry am I missing something? How does being a programmer relate to political leaning?
One only look into politics if they need to.
When you have a comfortable life there's no objective reason to question the structure of power are oneself is immersed into.
Because programmers generally get a comfortable lifestyle from the compensation for their work, they can easily believe that wages generally correlates to skill and effort, becoming completely oblivious to the concept of surplus value. From that point on they are susceptible to reinforcing dominant ideology.
Speaking as a programmer trying to rally the class. It's hard! Too much anecdotal evidence that things are fine, apparently. But I want to believe tides are starting to change.
The same way being a mechanical engineer relates to political leaning, I'd assume.
I don't think it does. It also doesn't mean they are not intelligent. It just means they spent a long time studying their trade, which is commendable.
But if you want to understand politics, you need to do like the rest of us and study politics. You can't look at a bucket and then say you understand the river.
Maybe somewhat, but mostly as class interests. I know a horrible neoliberal programmer who thinks he’s smarter than everyone because he reads Wikipedia articles. I figured out that the beliefs seemed highly correlated with his position as a labor aristocrat.
I mean, programmers are also the most uplifted profession by capitalism nowadays, that often does so little and have a lot of their work discarded. Their bosses also love promising "futurist" hopes that they'll rule the world. They're basically the digital world version of corporate lawyers, and its within their interests (or at least, the interest of those who rise to become capitalists) to be obsessed with liberalising everything.
Also, y'know, the whole process of defunding social studies worldwide in favour of STEM fields does wonders to a techkid brain.
I was thinking about this issue in the past and I came to the conslusion that what we perceive as "intelligence" is deeply flawed concept, for many reasons. For example, many people who struggle with intelligence tests are just people who have problems with attention.
Additionally, there seems to be very little correlatiom between "intelligence" and understanding of how the world works.
I know some people who are good at maths but have horrible brain-dead political views. nazis had intelligent generals. I also know someone who worked as a juror, company manager and government official at different stages of her life, but still acts very irrational in her everyday life.
At the same time I know people who do not have reputation of being the most intelligent, but they have a very good understanding of social problems, they are "street smart", enphatetic towards others and critical towards what they see in their everyday life. I could argue that they act more rationally than the people from the group above, even though they are not IT professionals or trained academically.
In my opinion, this line of reasoning leads nowhere. (:
Fully agree. I'd like to add, knowledge requires learning. And learning requires work, no matter how intelligent we are (or think we are).
been reading hackernews for years, can say with no doubt they are utterly reactionary fascists generally, who have extremely inflated egos and genuinely believe in things like "value add", "market incentives", "CEOs aren't paid enough because their 'value add' is so high", "governance models", "technocracy", but the worst is their "debate" bro culture
everything is a debate, and it's their elevated minds who need to be convinced by the common poors of anything. they'll often question flippantly extremely basic concepts like whether quality of life is bad for poor people, whether black and or LGBT people are genuinely oppressed, but posture it as a debate and that they're just "curious" and "looking for evidence" when they prove in their first few sentences they haven't spent even 1 minute looking for evidence, or they'd already know
their average immense wealth (I would say hackernews readership is 100k+ typical income, and heavily biased towards the viewpoint of 500k+ job hoppers and multimillionaire tech "leaders") blinds them to everything that isn't a javascript framework
they genuinely believe they are the cutting edge of humanity and the only hope for leading the world towards full automation, good "governance" through decentralized or even literal feudal kingdom style arrangements, etc
i have nothing, nothing good to say about hackernews demographic. any time you see anything even remotely left wing or pro union let alone socialist or anything not in line with the US imperialist line, it's piled on by a bunch of fascists and downvoted or hidden
genuinely believe in things like “value add”, “market incentives”, “CEOs aren’t paid enough because their ‘value add’ is so high”, “governance models”, “technocracy”
UGGGGHHHHH, Don't get me started about the corporate culture devs are. I can't fucking believe I entered a field of so well-educated people with such strong blinders for non-capitalist ideas. The exception is open source coders, but it's getting more niche every day :(
but the worst is their “debate” bro culture
More UGH
their average immense wealth
Unfortunately I think this is the root cause of their capitalist mindsets. The system works out great for them. Why doesn't everyone just drop all hobbies/families/life and become 10x programmers????
The exception is open source coders, but it's getting more niche every day :(
Even the open source community tends to attract anarchists, libertarians, and fascists, both as users and developers, which can be attributed to the inclusive nature of open source technology. I find more FOSS advocates to hold socialist beliefs, especially in regards to protecting the freedoms of technology, including the the four essential freedoms from the GNU philosophy, digital media preservation, net neutrality, right to repair, and right to encryption. Those who especially care about owning the means of computing, passing code stewardship between developers and users, and realizing freedom through the collective are on the road towards socialism or are already there and beyond. Don't forget that 83% of Americans supported net neutrality, more than 7 in 10 Americans want national data privacy laws, and over 80% of Americans want the right to repair their own equipment and to have the resources and documentation provided by the manufacturer to either independent repair professionals or the product owners.
It should be noted that open source is not free alone, and it is only free if (but not solely if) code can be given to a user with sufficient documentation and is written to be well-structured to make it feasible and accessible to understand and modify while ensuring the code is freely distributed and contributed to without corporations snatching the code for their own benefit and giving nothing in return. A free license is just the nominal aspect of freedom, whereas helping the end-user reach autonomy and self-determination with their own tools is the substantive.
Learning about Linux for the first time led me down the path to being a free and open source software and hardware advocate. I became more politically active in regards to technology. After net neutrality was repealed, I realized that our current system does not work for the majority of the people, and I began researching alternative governments and economies. This led me down towards technocracies (specifically the movements that proposed socialist-leaning ideas), The Venus Project, and The Zeitgeist Movement, which eased my transition into socialism and communism a few years later. I am a "lower middle class" IT contractor even though I have a 2 year degree in Computer Information Systems, which is essentially Computer Science. I am currently aiming towards pursuing an Electrical Engineering degree since that is the degree I was originally trying to pursue, but I unfortunately had to dropout of college multiple times as I struggled to make ends meet and had a hard time managing my Autism/ADHD as an adult. I was able to complete my 2 year degree with flying colors since my mind was more developed, I acquired an affordable apartment, I had support from my SO (now wife), my tuition was completely paid for, and the degree was completely online. Unfortunately, it did not help me progress my career, but my mother said she is willing to invest in my education if she makes enough from her settlement for her permanent disability from Amazon, which is why I am fortunate enough to even consider going back to school.
My dream goal is to start a semiconductor manufacturing cooperative focused on developing a completely libre (likely to be licensed under AGPLv3) architecture (either using RISC-V or developing my own instruction set) designed for high performance motherboards and chipsets (and more). I want to ensure people have full sovereignty of their own devices from their hardware to their software, especially to help protect against surveillance of socialist movements and potentially revolutions. I also want to make my devices as modular as possible to be resistant against needless e-waste and to push actual innovation in the tech sector, which would hopefully make computers more affordable, interoperable, easily upgradeable, and longer-lasting to the general public. I also want the cooperative to start immediately with its own union to ensure redundancy in workers' protections and to hopefully expand the union into other businesses. I am also interested in quantum computing, and I would like to specialize in this field to provide quantum computing to the public to ensure people have access to, for example, quantum encryption to be resistant against data mining and surveillance. I also have thought about certain programs for my business, including a "bartering system" available to the public, where people can trade materials and equipment (for example, to help expand the facility) in exchange for my devices. This way I can help build and improve poor communities as well as be resistant towards relying on profits in a capitalist system and to avoid being acquired (which I absolutely will fight tooth and nail to prevent, even if it means the collapse of the business). I also want to provide other means for people to pursue a career within my business as well as improve digital literacy in the general public by creating educational programs made freely available. I don't know if there will be a revolution before or after I achieve this, but I am working towards this goal to help as many people as I can (I have recently started the process of becoming a member of the PSL as I have been wanting to be more active in the socialist movement in the meantime, especially if my goals never come to fruition, leaving my efforts wasted).
I apologize for going on a tangent. The point I was meaning to come to is to not lose hope. I once fell for right-wing ideologies, even during my gradual transition to becoming a Marxist-Leninist (I still need to read theory). Maybe being poor and neurodivergent made it easier for me to deconstruct the propaganda I was fed during my childhood, but I believe that making leaps and sacrifices and going into rabbit holes, such as my transition to being a FOSS user and advocate, then my transition to resource-based economies and learning about the atrocities of the US made to protect its inefficient, destructive, imperialist system and hegemony, and my transition towards communism (solidifying my understanding of the world gained from my previous transitions), helped me overcome years of indoctrination. Perhaps a similar path can help other confused techies become socialists, too.
I think there was an additional fuel added to the metaphorical fire that is "hacker" demographics. When crypto came to the mainstream wearing shades and a leather jacket with the letters NFT stitched on we saw a bunch of people getting into "tech" and the general community by either following Elon and other tech bros or going after a profit through Crypto (and most shitcoins at that).
Utterly horrible, and even when they're not ultraright single digit IQ head bobbers, then they most likely are then a damn anarkiddy(if not an ancap) and at that point if someone tells me about tech news, computer builds, or programming I'm gonna to assume they're anti-left until proven otherwise.
People from jobs which on average have above average income don't get affected by capitalism same way as the average and sub average income people do and therefore don't get exposed to the issues. They might even benefit from capitalism because they have the disposable income to do so. It's in their interest to preserve the status quo.
Partly inflated egos, partly being so well paid by the spoils looted from the imperial periphery that even if they do realize it's bullshit that they'll keep up the anticommunism to defend their treats.
As a programmer, I never understood why other programmers were so against organizing. In many cases, they hold the entire company by the balls and could easily shut the whole thing down. Large software projects are complex in completely idiosyncratic ways which greatly reduces the ability to replace staff quickly. Hopefully this dogshit profession is automated away but that probably won't happen any time soon.
I work as a qa tester for a project making millions a month and only two devs work on it. I sincerely doubt they get a fraction of a fraction of the income they create. It's wild how much profit companies turn while offering little back... :c
I would have gave MacArthur whatever he needed to win.
I maintain that the second greatest mistake the US ever made was not giving McArthur the bombs he wanted.
Least bloodthirsty and chauvinistic libs. I don't want to know what the greatest mistake was.
“Before Covid, people viewed Kim Jong Un positively,” says Myong Suk, “but now almost everyone is full of discontent.”
From the original article.
Meaning... Up until 2020, despite every bit of western media claimeing that it was a ruthless dictatorship murdering 90% of the population every week, up until 2020 people viewed Kim Jong Un positively?
After covid I wonder which country isn't full of discontent.
Interesting... 🤔
Knowing how to solve problems doesn't make you a genius in politics.
See Von Neumann for example, he was a genius in math (this means he was very good in problem solving) but a total idiot in politics.
I know about Van Neumann architecture, but I'm unaware of his politics. Was he the early 20th century equivalent to a tech bro?
He was literally an Anti-Communist.
Von Neumann entered government service primarily because he felt that, if freedom and civilization were to survive, it would have to be because the United States would triumph over totalitarianism from Nazism, Fascism and Soviet Communism.[77] During a Senate committee hearing he described his political ideology as "violently anti-communist, and much more militaristic than the norm". He was quoted in 1950 remarking, "If you say why not bomb [the Soviets] tomorrow, I say, why not today? If you say today at five o'clock, I say why not one o'clock?"[391][392]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_von_Neumann
During a Senate committee hearing he described his political ideology as "violently anti-communist, and much more militaristic than the norm". He was quoted in 1950 remarking, "If you say why not bomb [the Soviets] tomorrow, I say, why not today? If you say today at five o'clock, I say why not one o'clock?"
You see this same phenomenon in general with the western bullshit that their ideas and traditions come from Greco-Roman philosophy, the Renaissance and Enlightenment. But for how much they laud reason, facts and logic, they're the most unreasonable, de facto illogical people on this planet.
I already made a comment, but I just remembered I made a post about this awhile ago.
Almost all jobs programmers can get are ones where they produce something directly for a bourgeois loser. Thats why they get paid so much. They are often direct servants to the porkies, who value bootlicking over quality.
even the smartest people are susceptible to propaganda... sometimes moreso because they think themselves to be immune
Everything will, suddenly, be OK once DPRK opens up to liberalisation leaving it's resources and markets at disposal of empire once and for all opening the gates of hell to it's citizens like the South one did. All they are doing is creating a breeding ground and consensus to go to war with DPRK whenever they get an excuse/chance.
take it from a programmer, folks: knowing how to make computer do magic doesnt equate to general intelligence or automatically make one better at unrelated things like politics. computer shit is a skill like any other that just happens to have a (false) connotation of "high intelligence" whatever that means.
sorry fellow nerds, you aint special. read lenin.
Also a code monkey. Programming requires very little intelligence (not that intellugence is even real).
Seconded from a (probably far worse) programmer.
+1 more from a software developer. I'm getting more alienated from my work every day :/
this is the truth and it applies to all fields
I've met a fair share of programmers who think they're a unique gift to the world but could barely tie their own shoelaces figuratively
Any specific text from him?
State and Revolution; Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism; "Left-Wing" Communism: An Infantile Disorder; and What is to be Done? are the texts I see most often recommended.