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I'm going to vote, and vote for Biden, but realistically, the democrats have already fumbled this big time.
The debate: honest to fuck, Trump looked composed and almost presidential next to Joe in that debate. I facepalmed in the first thirty seconds and never stopped. Jesus Christ, that was a massacre, and I don't know how anyone can pretend otherwise.
Biden himself: The debate kind of unsealed the can of questions about Joe's well being, and you're just not getting the snakes back in. Every time he goes to prove he's still Joe from 2020 or 2012, we get Joe from 2024, or even a flash of Joe from the debates. His audio is always fucked because he's speaking so soft that they have to turn the gain all the way up to pick him up, which means they also grab all kinds of artifact. He walks like an old man refusing to use the walker that his doctor is begging him to use. He keeps having pretty serious gaffes that kind of go beyond what we've come to expect from Joe. This just isn't going away, especially because every attempt to clean it up makes it worse. So, they're going to rely on the HRC 16 strategy of just yelling "Just shut the fuck up and vote, or we're going to get Hitler!"
Only: Now they're afraid to use the one trick this donkey seems to know anymore. The democrats got lazy, being able to use the threat of fascism as a fundraising and outreach tool. The problem is that we're talking about armed Americans here, and you convince the right ones that the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and, well... [Gestures]. So, now, the democrats have spent eight years telling us how Trump is Hitler (and make no mistake about it, he is a fascist) and building their platform around being the not fascists, and now that whole rug has gotten yanked out from under them because if they keep using that rhetoric, it's going to get someone killed. So, which is it? Trump is a serious threat of fascism and must be stopped to save the Republic, or it's not actually that bad and it's okay as long as Joe feels he tried his best?
Oh, and the assassination attempt gave Trump a couple of big Ws. First, that fucking picture. Show me a picture of Joe that's that cool that isn't just a meme; you can't. Second, instead of hustling away immediately, shit ass decided to have a moment of showmanship and pump his fist and yell "fight!" I hate that Donald is a good showman, but he is, and denying it won't change it.
So let's review, shall we?
Joe has: a really very just okay first time if you forgive the little genocide detail. And probably Parkinson's or sundowner's or something. He also has no real strategy left now that pointing out that the fascists are fascist leads to an unacceptable risk of political violence.
Trump has: a terrible awful first term that was a whole COVID ago, a badass picture, a badass moment, the ability to mostly kinda sorta speak in full sentences at a good volume, not bad reaction time tbh, and a bunch of newly sympathetic news coverage, donors, and people ready to join up with the fascists supporting him.
You might read all this and say "fuckin Trump supporter", and, I mean, good for you, I guess. I'm going to vote for Biden or whoever isn't Trump on November, but I'm also trying to be realistic about the situation we're in. The democrat establishment have bunglefucked the situation bad, and I have grave concerns about their ability to get their shit in gear by November. May they prove me wrong, I am not excited about Christian fascism.
I hate how people vote based on who has a cooler picture rather than their agenda.
I fucking hate politics.
People didn't vote for Biden because they supported his agenda. He was the fifth least-popular candidate in 2020, barely ahead of "Mike" Bloomberg.
The DNC promised favors to the other candidates in exchange for dropping out and endorsing Biden, because in their minds it was better to have a brain-dead candidate than risk nominating a socialist.
And now fascism's here.
Ok I get all that, like yeah we made all the wrong decisions as far as stopping fascism but have you considered wall street?
Why does no one care about the poor poor ultra wealthy wall street people!? Yeah sure we're about to see what happens when the world's largest military is run by Hitler #2, but at least Democrats protected wall street interests!
Wall Street= the economy... Duh
People can't afford groceries? Nonsense, have you seen the stock market?
I actually hoped Bernie would run last time Trumpler won again Hillary. In my eyes, he is competent, intelligent, and has some good ideas. Of course, he was old, and is even older now, and maybe out of touch with the younger gens, but at least better than Biden, and has a nice following.
Also memes.
At this point the US is just a failed state, doing failed state things, because it's a failed state. The writing's been on the wall for decades, but even though I expected the dictatorship within my lifetime since I was a teenager, I never expected it to be so god damned stupid. I expected it to be someone cunning and competent. Not a total fucking moron.
I definitely didn't expect the oligarchy to go the useful idiot route either, but man, when you can elect an idiot as useful as Donald Trump, I figure they feel pretty well empowered.
I definitely agree with you on that.
I've been thinking a lot about how the assassination attempt will effect Bidens chances at victory. I read one take that I agree with, the basic idea is that it won't effect polling data that much. That's with the belief that there are no real undecided voters in this election. The key issue is voter turnout per party. And the biggest effect is that this will cause Trump supporters to have high turnout rates. Biden will never do well in that enthusiasm gap, which is a major reason why it would have been best to stick to a single term, can't undue that though.
There is a unique opportunity at DNC. Assuming Trump will do nothing to "turn down the tempture" Biden can step down as the nominee, claiming his family convinced him to, fearing an assassination attempt. That will flip the entire narrative. There should be an open primary as well. 1 debate with x number of Dems, don't just nominate Harris, again, democrats need enthusiasm to have a high turnout. That debate will be a huge television event and it will be about the issues, Democrats will win, down ballot even, when they all say tax the rich over and over again.
That's just me writing a script for this shit. But at this point, fuck it, replace Biden with George Clooney. He's just as qualified as Trump was in 2016.
And the biggest effect is that this will cause Trump supporters to have high turnout rates.
Could you explain how? Flip it around: if a registered Dem took a shot at Biden would that help his turnout? I'm not so sure.
It depends on how it was handled. Trump got an excellent PR photo, and the dems have been tripping over each other in their rush to support him and civility. This is a massive win for Trump in the eyes of his voterbase. In non-Trump voter eyes, it won't make any difference, but it doesn't need to. This election will be won or lost not by policy, but by voter engagement, and Biden has been doing very poorly recently with that regard.
How many Trumpers will even have this at the front of whatever passes for their minds in 4 month's time?
I'll bet you actual money there will be shirts, shoes, hats, and bumper stickers of that moment.
I've already seen that shit getting blasted under any twitter posts mentioning trump by bots. The vultures are fucking quick with it, let me tell you, like less than an hour after that photo came out I started to see that shit appear on this stupid redbubble type t-shirts as a design. I bet that shit's gonna sell like hotcakes.
I'm not sure why that would even matter. Just throw that shit on the massive pile marked "shitty Trump branded merch".
Really fucking helpful discussion there. Just ignoring all of it and lamenting how his merch is shitty...
Yeah that will totally do something.
If you need to help your brain make some dopamine go touch grass, do some origami or masturbate or something.Cause this wasn't helpful or even coherent as part of the conversation.
You seem like the one who needs a break, Mr Angrypants.
What did your comment contribute exactly?
Quite a few. It's a positive impact to his campaign.
This election cycle isn't going to be won by bringing voters in from across the aisle, or appealing more to centrists. This election is going to be won by whichever candidate can energize voters more within swing states.
Realistically, I expect Biden to win the popular vote and lose the electoral college.
So on one hand, some Trumpers may be motivated enough to get off the couch because some idiot took a shot at him. On the other hand, Dems should be motived by things like access to abortion and staving off an attempt to institute a christofascist autocracy.
Should doesn't matter. What is matters.
This election is going to be purely vibes-based, nobody is undecided. Whichever candidate can get the highest turnout wins.
Right now, sad to say, Trump is winning that vibes battle.
Right now, sad to say, Trump is winning that vibes battle.
I don't see any evidence for this. Of course, the media has a shiny new story to obsess about but that's not the same thing.
Biden's polling has been tanking, aligning with the popular protesting against the Palestinian Genocide and the recent poor debate performance, with major calls for him to step down even from within the DNC.
Trump's polling has been rising, his voters are unified, and he has managed to pull an amazing PR victory out of his assassination attempt.
Trump doesn't look better now to Biden voters. Trump looks better to Trump voters than Biden looks to Biden voters, which is what will matter more than appealing to centrists this election.
(Not the same person you were in that convo with btw) I've always felt that Biden was going to rely on grassroots pro choice groups to really kick up the voter engagement. That's where the Taylor Swift factor will come in.
Agreed. The election is about what people stand to lose if they stay home, not just about how old and infirm Biden is.
Dems should be motived by things like access to abortion and staving off an attempt to institute a christofascist autocracy.
That's a nothing sandwich with a side order of nothing. As far as motivating voters. It doesn't apply to any one person. Any Democratic candidate could be saying these things, whether Biden, Harris, any of the other Democratic candidates from 2020, or a Speak-n-spell with a blue sticker on it. The GOP has, for decades, ran on people before policies. When they didn't, they lost.
And whether we like it or not we don't live in a logical system where policies are all that matter. If we did we could have a direct democracy and have every citizen vote directly on each policy. Instead we have a Republic, so the person making the empty campaign promises matters. Their personality matters. Their energy and likeability matters. It's why Obama won, and Clinton before him. But now, the Democrats either can't see that or don't want to, or they're led by bad actors who want to lose.
I disagree simply because the scale and magnitude of what the majority of people stand to lose this time is like nothing we've ever seen before.
Your mistake is using the usual logic. That flip only works to identify breaks in a logical way of thinking and serves to highlight how something might not make sense in reverse. Except instead of If A then B and if B maybe not A, we have:
If not fascist, vote Biden
vs
Trump.
He is the equation. No if-then statements, no maybes, nothing. Just the equation of Trump.
He is their god-king. If he says drink cyanide, a shocking percentage would do so. Because of the assassination attempt the timeline has shifted. It is no longer a race of one terrible choice and one middle-of-the-road choice, now especially it is about image and the charisma to represent a figure to the people who need to vote. Allow me to lay a short timeline:
Joe announces a second term. This was his chance to tell all of us that if he can't do it he will step down, for the good of all of us. This creates trust in a leader that understands what is important.
Trump confirms he will run. GOP immediately behind him while playing smoke and mirrors.
Fast forward through mostly normal months if you put aside all the court meetings with Trump at the head.
Joe challenges Trump to a debate. ALL OF US expect Trump to get destroyed. Despite his intelligence, old age is showing and Biden fumbles the ball. Honestly not badly in any other year, he just fumbled it next to one of the biggest imbeciles in recent history and because expectations were high, the fall went further.
However, this is a chance for Joe to recover. Apologize for his performance. Go full Dark Brandon. Explode out onto the news and talk shows. Hire Wendy's PR team and have then run his social media accounts. Admit he fucked up and then step up strongly and precisely. This is how you turn these situations around in your favor.
He continues to fumble and honestly? It isn't truly even his fault, until he admits that he is staying in to "do his best". Now the responsibility is 100% on his shoulders for everything, period. Before this he may have had wiggle room. Unfortunately, that is a statement of ownership. It was not popular.
Then Trump gets shot. Since it happened, best case was him not getting hit at all. Second best was the shooter finding success. Worst case scenario, well...see Trump holding a pose, blood running down the side of his face. Before this moment, Biden was unpopular, though still Biden. There remained ways to regain a foothold. Now even I, who supported him staying in, cannot find a reason for him to do so. He's lost the image game. A single bullet shifted the scale.
To win now it's on us to be the leaders. We all need to come out in numbers never before seen. Without our own figurehead, and there are people whose image could easily challenge and outstrip Trump's, we can now only rely on our collective desire to stop this evil. The problem is the people who can beat him don't want the job.
They would be heroes.
I just don't feel they'll step up.
I just don’t feel they’ll step up.
Nobody is going to risk fracturing the party by announcing that they're running against the incumbent. It's really on Biden to declare he's out of the race first. I hope he does so.
The best thing for US Democracy, the people of the US, and no hyperbole the entire world, would be if Biden got hospitalized through natural illness. He'd be forced to step aside, the "Back Biden no matter what" crowd would have to back a new candidate, the "Please any Democrat except Biden" would get a new candidate, and no one looks weak (or at least not any weaker than they do already).
Then when he recovers, after the election, he can be a strong advisor to the new Democratic president.
I kind of agree but if Biden is incapacitated there will be a strong push to give his spot to Harris and I can see her losing to Trump.
It's a shit situation all round and the blame should be on Biden. He should've served his one term and gone down in history as the guy who steadied the ship after Trump but I guess his ego and hubris prevented that.
How do we get to an open primary and how do we get that done as fairly and as quickly as possible?
Everyone's hindsight bias is on fire it seems. Is it possible that, at the time, the decisions made more sense? I dont see how its productive to think of ways to change the past. Learn and move on.
The party is fractured. The only thing the majority agrees on is not Trump. A true and popular figurehead can shore up the doubtful. Biden has a way out now, though from my perspective only one. I am hoping beyond hope there is someone smarter than me on their team with a brilliant counterplay.
The party is fractured.
Because first past the post voting forces everyone to vote for the democrats. How you all find this democratic is beyond all reason. If two political parties are okay... why not 1?
I'm sorry did you really say you decided Biden couldn't win because Trump got shot? Are you not going to vote for Biden over it too?
Sorta sounds like all we need to do to fix this problem is for you to vote for Biden. Would also help if you didnt make arguments against voting for him too. What's your end goal here anyways?
I believe that on the current course with no changes that the road to victory just got a lot more difficult.
Which I said.
In my post.
That you should read out loud to yourself.
How is it more difficult. Everyone seems to be missing the connecting bits. Here, connect these two ideas:
- Trump gets shot at
- Trump gets more votes during the presidential election.
How does 1 lead to 2.
The saf thing is, Democrats are no longer allowed to call fascists fascist, or say that Trump is dangerous as that is now considered "Violent"
Bro lol this is the comment section for AOC calling out other dems for "resigning to fascism". She literally did that.
I think we are seeing that not all Democrats have thought through their position, and are apparently figuring it out live mid conversation.
That or its troll farms trying to get Biden to lose.
Yeah but that involves the DNC offering representation in exchange for votes. They aren't interested in doing so.
You are to kiss Joe bidens feet and smile. Or else.
Trump looked composed and almost presidential next to Joe in that debate.
That has nothing to do with Trump and everything to do with CNN allowing the sack of shit to lie his ample ass off for 90 minutes without any kind of pushback from the "moderators".
There were times when they cut off Biden mid-sentence to let Trump speak
Just wait to the shit show of the the the August 19th Democratic Convention in Chicago. Pro Israeli and Pro Palestinian groups will be marching. An alphabet soup of causes will also be on the march. It will only add the confusion surrounding the Democratic's policies, and turn people off voting.
I'm going to read this comment to my kids instead of a bedtime story
My daughter is old enough to be figuring stuff out and she's been asking some really difficult questions about the election.
Replacing Biden was always a good idea, and the opposition always had the argument of "Biden is unfit for the presidency yet is still being pushed by his party, therefore the Democratic party is dumb"; but now prominent Democrats have (correctly in my opinion) called for Biden to be replaced. So there's no going back now. If they don't, the oppisition now has an even stronger argument: "Biden is unfit for the presidency, members of his own party have called for his replacement, yet he hasn't been replaced, therefore the Democratic party is really dumb".
Finding a candidate that energizes voters and creates a big turnout is hard, but not impossible, the 2020 primaries have minted several candidates and raised their profile.
Funnily enough, AOC turns 35 this October, she's too young by like a few months if i get this right?
She would be 35 by January and that's what would count in this very hypothetical situation
Right so i didn't know exactly when a candidate has to be 35 (at time of nomination, election day, investiture...); if it's investiture then an AOC candidature is technically possible, though i think we'd have heard about it by now if she had that intention
Lol AOC would rather Trump be president than herself. Democrats don't want to win, because when they do, everyone can see what massive genocidal hypocrites they are.
This is a really good summary. The one thing that might help Biden from the assassination is that it could reduce Trump's campaign schedule. Which is good, because Biden has no defense for the campaign abilities of Trump. There is still almost definitely going to be a point in September/October, where Trump makes more appearances and talks to the press more than Biden has in his term, but it's probably going to be over about a month or so instead of 2-3 weeks.
Ranked Choice voting will Introduce much needed competition into the electoral process. We should all be pressing our state representatives about making plans to switch away from First-past-the-post voting.
How should we be pressing them? Money? Votes? Something else that they care about?
I don't know what debate you watched, but trump was terrible. Honestly, they both were. But Biden at least stayed on topic and talked about policy. Trump just ranted about random shit the entire time. Biden came out better IMO.
That's fair, everything was about immigration this, immigration that, and it was upsetting, particularly because he was practically on stage by himself. It was upsetting that Joe couldn't ever seem to get his head on straight. Even when he did "come alive", it just felt like "confused old man yells at Wal-Mart employee" more than it reminded me of 2020 Joe.
The debate: honest to fuck, Trump looked composed and almost presidential next to Joe in that debate.
I swear that my wife practically wanted to divorce me for saying this right after. I wouldn’t vote for him with a gun to my head but watching that debate, the Trump on stage that night was the President I’d want other world powers to wrangle with.
So you would want the president of the US to make up obvious lies and name call like a child when dealing with other world powers? Just go up there and sniff his own farts at the UN meeting or whatever?
I know Biden did poorly, but that doesn't mean we have to act like Trump did well. Any compent politician would have have made him look stupid in that debate, and the same would happen on the world stage.
With no outside context, using just the performances of the two candidates in that debate, one looked less senile than the other. That's all they're saying. Doesn't make the Toupee a good choice, just the less worse one (again, based only on the performance in that debate and ignoring everything else).
Shame that there are so few competent politicians.
There's tons of fantastic politicians, they're just all local.
Yes, but I'm more concerned with what he'll do to us. Fuck other countries
Agreed, well summed up. I wish more people shared your insight. Never the less, I appreciate your stance.
This is written by someone completely out of touch with reality.
and now that whole rug has gotten yanked out from under them because if they keep using that rhetoric, it’s going to get someone killed.
It's not the rhetoric that will get someone killed it's the very real abuse of the system that goes on right under our noses. What is more convincing that Trump is the next Hitler? Joe, the guy you said is losing his composure, saying that trump is hitler or 6 supreme court justices giving the president absolute immunity from things like, "assisanating political rivals."
It's the latter you fool, the rhetoric is on point.
Hey, acting mean and superior is a poor crutch for a bad argument.
If you'd read my post, you'd understand that what I'm saying is that the Democrats are using the fact that they're not the fascists as their primary outreach and fundraising platform. The problem is that there's no soft way to deliver that message; you can't say "hey, these guys are actual Nazis, but it's like totally cool, don't shoot them" without undermining your entire messaging. So, now that the democrats have decided to stop saying mean things about the fascists for fear that the fash will get the bash, the messaging has gone from "shut up and vote or we'll get Hitler" to "shut up and vote". Forgive me if I don't find that to be a particularly powerful rallying cry, but I have some concerns about the ability of "just shut up and vote" to get people to the ballot box.
The problem is that there’s no soft way to deliver that message; you can’t say “hey, these guys are actual Nazis, but it’s like totally cool, don’t shoot them” without undermining your entire messagin
As if the only reason to not shoot someone is ideology.
It's not a rallying cry it's the reality.
Mean? superior? No, you have no legs. You are just pissing in the pot.
If you will, address my main assertion. That the Supreme Court has exposed the GOP as fasict. I know you can't because that isn't why you're here with your defeatism.
Uh... Yes? I think that if you'd actually read what I've written, you would see that I make no secret of the fact that the GOP are fascists. That's the point, the democrats have hitched themselves to the strategy of being the not fascists, and now they have no way forward. You can't say "these guys are actual Nazis, that really actually want to do Nazi shit [and they do], but be cool about it." It's the political equivalent of "listen, there's a nuclear strike incoming, but keep calm and carry on, maybe bring an umbrella." Either you're going to send the message that you have no idea what you're talking about about, or that you don't seriously believe in the threat; either way, it makes you sound like you're full of shit and people will tune you out.
I think the best approaches at this point are to promote the P2025 talking points with no editorializing, just lay them bare and let people draw their own conclusions. ALSO, they need to put forward a bold, real alternative to the fash instead of just finger wagging. People are starving for the system to work for them, the GOP are exploiting that, why aren't the democrats?
Edit: They also need to not be afraid of the conclusions people might draw from learning about what the GOP wants. If you want people to know the fascists are fascist, you have to be okay with some people deciding on sic semper tyrannis. It's fine to disavow them, to discourage them, but you can't flinch.
You can’t say “these guys are actual Nazis, that really actually want to do Nazi shit [and they do], but be cool about it.”
What the fuck is "be cool about it"? Voting them out of office is "be cool about it"? Fascists are the ones that believe might makes right you numbskull. As much as I want biden to flex his absolute immunity I know for a fact that would solve nothing and put us further behind. Democrats have to demonstrate they can make the system work for the people. That is the only way the people will have faith in the system.
It's two fold, the people have to participate in the system. And you shit bags, storming in at the last hour after ever thing was said and done demanding we work outside what we had already established, are such a pain in my ass.
I don't mind, I think it's fine to have discourse, but please, have just as much if not more discourse around trump. Wtf. Would it help if I had mitt romney come by, grab your arm, and force it in your face and say, "stop hitting yourself"?
The nuclear strike is coming, and the government is saying, "hey, all we have are these umbrellas, if you vote me in I can delay it a bit longer."
Again, still haven't addressed my original assertion. The things that the GOP are doing speak louder than any rhetoric..
Dude, okay, first: I'm sure the Nazis led plenty of people to the gas chambers with their heads held high with pride about their non-violence. What stopped the Nazis was bullets. There aren't any two ways about it, if you really, really believe that the GOP are a bunch of violent fascists, and they are, then saying "no, it's okay, we can beat Hitler with voting / I'll feel good if we lose as long as I tried my best" is a deranged statement. I can't believe you had the gall to call me out of touch with reality. You can't have it both ways, they're either an existential threat to the Republic and a large chunk of America, or it's okay if Joe loses as long as he tried his best.
Look, I voted in the primary, and I didn't vote for Biden, so miss me with 100% of that shit. I want the democrats to get their ass in gear because I don't particularly want to have to shoot Nazis. and btw, can you rephrase what the question is that you're posing about the SCOTUS? What exactly is it that you want to hear from me?
I really belive the GOP are Christo-facists. Being a facist doesn't mean they automatically get power. Like we arent at gas chambers yet. Obviously, wtf. You seem to think that Joe should be escalating when nothing is set as there is an entire election that will shape the course of history. You don't live in reality.
I don't get to go out on the street and shoot a nazi because they have a swastika on their chest. Full stop.
I don't want Biden to start drone striking Congress, but it would be nice if the democrats acted like this election is as important as they keep saying it is, because it is that important.
You hit the nail on the head, we are fucked.