Turning Men Down In Public

You can't do anything if you take all the crazy people on the street in consideration

Always keep in mind that you heard about it in the news. So it was a news-worthy event.
- Or it was not really news worthy and got inflated by the media untill it was.
- It's interesting to think about how gun violence is so common in the US that it's become local news. You only get brief national coverage if you mass-murder a large gathering of people. School shootings are now so common that they rise to national news if the death count rises above a dozen or so kids. There were 83 school shootings in the 2000's. There were 264 shootings in the 2010's. There have been 181 so far in the 2020's. We're well on track to double the 10's number by the end of the decade. More than 200 kids murdered in schools in the 2010's. How many did you heard about?
  And that's just school shootings. The national level of people not murdered by police is far higher. There were 21,000 homicides by guns in 2021 alone. We don't call police-caused deaths "murder," but the nicely qualified "justifiable homocides," but in 2019, cops added another 1,000 people shot and killed by police to that number. It's a lot harder to get at totals when it involves law enforcement.
  Anyway, it's rather incredible to me that murder has become so mundane. Or maybe it always has been, and it requires a Lizzy Borden situation to make national news.
- That is argument of popular which is fallacy and doesn’t address the argument at all. Just cuz something isn’t in the news Doesn’t mean it’s a safe world. Just doesn’t mean an event is popular to listen to. Much rape reporting doesn’t get televised because of it being so common. Just cuz something isn’t newsworthy doesn’t mean it’s still not wrong and getting unfairly dismissed
This man might be crazy! I better go on a date with him lol
- Yeah. Hilarious.
  Turn him down and he yells, calls the woman names, maybe attacks her now or later, stalks her, rapes her, murders her, kills a kid, shoots up a mall, or mows down a crowd with a van, or...
  Men fear rejection, women fear being killed.

Hmm... There was a comic about women and serial killers that got me started thinking about this but...

Do you think both genders are being sold on extremes of the other that might be skewing our ability to interact rationally?

Like women being sold extremes of men abusiveness and cults and rapists and men on stingy or "slutty" women. And now both genders are spending less time with each other and more with internalized extreme versions of each other?

It's like maybe a symptom of a lack of social spaces or maybe just leads to less of them as people only feel comfortable in closed groups. I'm thinking we are all being taken for a ride.
Or people are way worse than I can consider.

Okay so hear me out. I have this pet theory that might explain some of the divide between genders, but also political parties, causing paralysis which ultimately might lead to humanity's extinction. Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious.
I'm going to set up two axioms to arrive at an extrapolated conclusion.
One: Human psychology tends to ascribe more weight to negative things than positive things in the short term. In the long term this generally balances out, but in the short term it's more prudent in a biological sense to pay attention to the rustling in the bushes than the berries you might pick from them. This is known as the negativity bias.
Two: The modern gatekeepers of social interaction, Big Tech, employ blind algorithms that attempt to steer your attention towards spending more time on their platforms. These companies are the arbiters of the content we experience daily and what you do and don't see is mostly at their discretion. The techniques they employ, in simple terms, are designed to provoke what they call 'engagement'. They do this because at the end of the day FAANG have not only a financial interest, but a fiduciary duty to sell advertisements at the behest of their shareholders. The more they can engage you, the more ads they can sell. They employ live A-B testing, divide people into cohorts and poke and prod them with psychological techniques to try and glue your eyeballs to their ads.
Extrapolated conclusion: These companies have a financial and legally binding interest to divide the population against itself, obstructing politics and social interaction to the point where we might not be able to achieve any of the goals that we need to reach to prevent oblivion.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
- I absolutely agree and would only like to add that humans also have a Confirmation bias that is of course reinforced by engagement algorithms as well. So not only do we tend to only see the negative but also predominantly the negative that reinforces out worldview. Best example is the fact that many people are convinced crime rates are going up all the time while they are actually going down world-wide for decades already.
- There's a whole documentary about exactly this, called The Social Dilema (2020). The film is a bit over-the-top and hyperbolic, but I get that they're competing with shows that are mostly CGI explosions and have to spice things up. Anyway, it goes into details, using sources from the industry, and it's worth a watch. At the very least you'll feel vindicated about your thesis.
- In this sort of place we are also pretty good at selecting and promoting the best performing offensive material against the other side on whatever axis sides are drawn — cats vs dogs; cars vs bicycles; religion vs religion vs no religion
  Not really the best against the other side - the best for their side to feel would offend the other side
  Further thought - I was taught to not follow news because news isn't about what's important, it's about what keeps you watching or gets you to buy the newspaper. This problem has always existed since we first had information tied to money
- BINGO. You nailed it. This is absolutely how it works. It's not even a "conspiracy" in the traditional sense, evil tends to naturally become "industry standard" in a "highly competitive market."
  Also I'd like to add to this, how people are working more than ever, and participation in civics, local politics, hobbies, religious organizations, etc... Have been trending downward for ages. "Third places" between home and work are also disappearing. If you set foot outside your home, you're on somebody's turf and you'd better be buying something or working for them.
  And talking with others? My goodness how unproductive! Gotta be working on these 3 side hustles. "Maybe you can monetize talking with friends!" /s
  My neighborhood personally is full of renters who never bother to meet each other and are rarely seen outside at all, and many will probably be gone within 3 months. Knocking on your neighbor's door will just get your face on a Ring video posted with
  "ANYBODY KNOW THIS GUY? PROBABLY CASING THE PLACE OMG." with responses like
  "Never answer your door and get a gun and a big dog. I've seen this on TV and a friend got robbed once."
  This all adds up to literally seeing and experiencing the world through a digital filter. A filter that makes tons and tons of money when everybody is in a pocket universe. Scared of each other. Filtering each other. Weaponized by politics. Swayed by ads. Nobody shares resources. Nobody talks. Nobody gathers.
  They're all the most important thing in their own little worlds, buying products and generating data. I liken this to when we started seeing split-screen disappear from video games. "Well now each player needs a game console, and a subscription, and the game..."
  Lol sorry didn't mean to follow your TED talk with a blog post of my own. But, yeah, how the heck do we get this message out there...our humanity is hanging on by a thread...
I certainly think so. Social media and all those publicity-hungry news publishers have contributed to fostering an image of men and women that is unrealistic and without nuance. Not just regarding aggressiveness of men or chronically dtf women.
This might be a weird take, but Ted Bundy was only so successful because his victims inherently trusted him. In today's world I believe he would have a lot more trouble to find a woman that assumes he has good intentions.
That and the gender separation is exaggerated by smaller families. Often a lot of people will only interact extensively with their mother or father as a member of the opposite sex, rarely anyone around their own age.
- So true. I find it weird that in my 20's I wondered where all the people my age went. It seemed like I was only interacting with old people and kids.
  Maybe because I couldn't stay in college, I dunno. =\
Not fond of this "both sides" attitude - you don't see women threatening the safety of men: the onus is on men to ensure that women feel safe around them. It's not enough to not hurt a woman, but to ensure the woman is always in a situation where she feels like you aren't a threat. Don't isolate her from a crowd as there is safety in numbers. Be confrontational against men who male her feel unsafe. Keep space so she doesn't have to fear sudden movements from you. Etc etc etc. It's work to navigate in such an environment, but it isn't impossible.
If you want to engage with women on more equal footing, your enemy is the men who are making them feel unsafe, not the women for feeling unsafe. This is the only viable path forward.

Maybe don’t constantly listen what media says? Otherwise u will end up paranoid.

Maybe actually listen to women's experiences, instead.
I can tell you haven't.
Yeah, disregard advice destined to protect an endangered group when you belong to that group. That's going to go reallllllly well.
- Is it actually intended to protect you, or is it intended to constantly neg you to the point you become a hollow shell of a woman, overly eager to please others out of fear for hypotheticals, no longer capable of recognizing good in others so you'll settle for the abusive relationships you've been conditioned to expect?
Guess what happened the two whole times I deliberately ignored the "paranoia."
Go on. Guess.
No.fucking.shit. !!
I can't believe you're getting downvoted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
- It's incredible how many people think gaslighting is literally any instance of saying something untrue.
  But this instance is particularly egregious, because you didn't even read the first sentence of the link you posted.

This seems more like an indictment of media than of patriarchy. Listening to too much True Crime will rot your brain

that must be it! if only those women hadn't listened to True Crime, they would still be alive now
- Reading compression's not your strong suit is it?

For the men being dramatic in the comments, think about this: if your reaction to women saying they have a reason to be afraid is to take your dating ball and go home, whine and complain about women being afraid of you because if your gender, blame women for listening to reports of crime, or otherwise do anything but listen and expand your empathy, you are a big part of the reason women have to be cautious. Thank you for proving their point.

Ryan Gosling's short: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/IYF-WYBLNs4

The mall thing actually happened?

Yup:
The boy, identified only as Landen, was 5 when Emmanuel Aranda threw him nearly 40 feet to the ground. Aranda, who had been banned from the Bloomington, Minnesota, mall twice in previous years, told investigators that when went there “looking for someone to kill” after women rejected his advances.
The guy sounds like a real winner.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/mall-america-settles-lawsuit-5-year-old-boy-thrown-balcony-rcna60301
- Jesus fucking christ I figured it was a joke
- Certainly very scary, a horrible tragedy, and a mental health emergency we need to find a way to prevent. Learning about things like this can understandably frighten anyone. However, the reality is it’s an outlier, very rare, almost no one will ever experience anything like this
This article has a story of a man throwing a boy, but doesn't say the reason why he threw the boy.
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/12/06/us/boy-thrown-mall-of-america-settlement/index.html
Edit: Here is an article with the reason given by the man:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/man-threw-year-mall-america-balcony-tells-police/story?id=62423602
He said he came up with a plan to "kill someone at the mall" on Thursday and indicated that he was angry because women at the mall had rejected him.
So it looks like the comic is referencing an actual event.

Shit is scary out there. Had a situation recently that definitely reinforced how spooky it is being a woman in public.

So I'm chilling with crew at bar, came out to catch a homie mixing originals. One of our friends is a cutie. She's with 3 of us fellas, we're in a booth, very obviously a group that came here together. One of the regulars kicks it with us for a bit, harmless banter, classic bar chat shit.

Anyways, he ends up chilling for a bit, cracking jokes, having fun, says his homie owns the bar, etc, he gets a bit flirty (again, felt fully harmless at the time), goes to fetch us a round of brew. She only wanted a water by this stage in the night. When she finally gets around to taking a small sip all her internal alarm bells go off, thinks sum'm tastes off.

Anyways we manage to pick up the vibe and dip before anything extra sketch went down and had a lil debrief, made sure everyone was ok etc... One of my dudes had also taken a decent gulp first and seemingly got pretty woozy off it. Now, I can't for sure confirm whether it was truly laced or just shitty dirty bar hose water and a mild panic attack. Can't say whether homie was chemically woozy or placebo woozy (very well could've been tired from long day and lots of brew + dancing), but either way, enough to be a scary situation! We're like 95% sure shit was sketchy.

Absolutely worth trusting the gut when you get an off feeling. Better safe than sorry, all that. As a dude, I've NEVER needed to think twice about a gift beverage at a bar. I circle lots of music scenes and almost every single time I'm out I'll catch a random free drink, smoke, lol candy or whatever off a stranger randomly offering. I've definitely asked to confirm what these gifts are, but generally felt safe enough to take their answers at face value.

Ladies DEFINITELY can't be as cavalier about gifts from strangers though... That's how they end up the subject of these crime podcasts.

Idk, felt like a relevant story to share.

Stay safe, stay frosty, y'all ❤️ Good weekends all around!

This is a colorful perspective.
Growing up as a man, I was told that I should be 'alpha', I should be a predator and girls like only such guys. I tried to question this, but I was surrounded by all this. Hell, even when I reached my mom on such a topic, she just stopped the conversation.
Your post made me recall several situations where I made young women uncomfortable. Hell, I used to be such a dumbass.
- Yeah dude, all that pick up artist shit is pretty toxic and counter productive imho. Especially these incel influencers talking about "deserving" goddamn anything. Like, being a "good guy" for a minute doesn't mean you deserve a sex treat, you dirty dogs! 😒
  Now, I've thankfully been committed in a ship for a while now so can't speak to modern dating scene (fuck it looks bleak for lads in them middle thirties), but I always leaned on my funny bones more than anything back when I was making moves. That and, now this is pretty obvious, just treating women like regular people -- cause they are! (Duh).
  I never tried too hard to "have game." I've just been a perpetually evolving amalgamation of shit I find cool. If you're just naturally comfortable and confident in your skin, and visibly having the most fun in the room it's way more attractive than trying too hard. Desperation reeks. Least that's my take.
  Of course the rules are a smidge different when you're 11/10 fine as helllll 🤣 I've seen the chat game on them Chads and it gets reckless lmao
  Good on ya for the introspective reflection though, truly! Not necessarily a bad thing to cringe at past you; that means you're growing and improving.
I know it shouldn't need to be said, but as a woman, THANK YOU! Thank you so so much for being a safe haven with actual conscious awareness of the dangers women face. We need more men that will stand up to the stupid Alpha Bros and stop shit before we are in serious trouble!
One thing that might help you help the ladies in your life is coming up with a code phrase that lets her tell you she doesn't feel safe in a situation that requires discretion. Ex: "Janice texted me" (with a name yall never use). My fiance and I have a code phrase, and I've had to use it twice. It feels good knowing I have an out no matter what when things start feeling sketchy.
- Oh wow. Memory unlocked. We used to have a code word for "get me out of this interaction". The amount of times I've been the one to break off a conversation/situation with a man on behalf of my friends and the amount of time the interaction has been scary.
  Luckily I'm old and invisible now.
- Juuust when you forget how dark the world is for a moment, someone gotta shake your faith in humanity all over again. No thanks necessary, of course, but appreciate ya all the same! 🤙 Even on a goofy night, squad ends up safe at home, every time.
  Oh yeah! We IMMEDIATELY began talking about safe words/phrases, like, while we were processing wtf just happened. Smart move having something extra inconspicuous like that! Definitely better than whatever dumbass tropical fruit phrase we semi joked about at the time. 😂😬 (Lol fuck, vaguely recall a phrase about needing to take a nasty shit, uff).
  Will for sure be on German Shepard Mode next time we catch a night out. Gonna be hard to turn that off for a minute...
this was hard to read and understand.

There are plenty, if not most, good and decent men out there who are respectful and treat not only women well but everyone around them. but they dont end up in the news or even being mentioned. They dont get talked about or even remembered.

Sure some men are terrible but IMO and experience, i wouldn't blame it on their gender. Its more a personality thing

Ugh. That's a long way of saying 'not all men'. Fucking hell, guy.
- It could be the clickbait title yes! But I feel there's more to it than that. It's also about who is more visible and who gets talked about the most as well as dis-respectfulness being a personality trade instead of a gender characteristic
- Okay. The vast majority of men will not attack you for rejecting their advances. The news loves to cherry pick things that scare people and make them angry, because it increases viewership.
  What's the alternative? Men should never speak to women?
Sure, a majority of men are respectful. But when it's a game of odds of being verbally berated or worse for declining some random guys advances I would sure as fuck not trust a random man coming up to me either.
- But then you expect a terrible reaction from every guy. As you say, it's a game of odds. I am sure that there are bad guys out there, but expecting every guy to be bad, or preparing for everyone to be bad, is just as discriminating as men expecting all women to be willing to date them.
People forget that nobody makes true crime podcasts about a guy who took rejection like a normal person.
That doesn't make the crazy people not a problem, but obsessing on what you read online will give you a skewed view of what people in general are like.
Completely agree with you, I've met some amazing men before! The comic really drives home the fact though that the small amount of bad and violent men out there are why women have to always be at least a little on guard to protect ourselves when men approach us. And yes, no doubt there are bad and violent women out there too
That's because not sexually assaulting someone isn't something you get a medal for.
Well I’d hope these good people that you know would not be personalizing and taking away from the point. One good person doesn’t undo another horrible person’s business. It is news because it’s about the victims in a situation. Let it be about them and not about some fragile guy feeling ‘personally attacked’ over what some other guy did. That’s feeding on someone else’s tragedy and making it about what it isn’t.
- I am sorry if this sounds like I got offended or hurt by this. I personally am not involved in this at all. I've been in the same relationship for 15 years and not in 'the game'.
  I'm just discussing it on neutral grounds and out of interest.
  What we haven't even mentioned are the cultural differences between countries. Some places are more dangerous than others

I'm kind of proud of our team of guys at work. We have had a couple of women work with us in the past but its rare. The dudes at work dont shout comments, dont wolf whistle, dont harass women. I dont understand why its so hard for others not to be complete morons. In fact one or two have called out the behaviour of others.

That is... literally the lowest the bar can get
- I dunno, I've seen some really low bars :P
Some industries are better than others. I work in a situation where I work with multiple crews. Some are great where everybody just acts like people and... some are shit where if they get a fem-presenting person on random call from the hall they act like they are radioactive and chuck them back in the call out pool unfailingly at day's end.
I see a lot of bad power dynamics at play regularly. The thing I found the most telling on a crew is the treatment pretty girls get over the plain or unattractive ones. If it seems like the guys are just generally more attentive to the pretty ones and not making an effort through be sociable more generally and not rewarding actual merit - or if a crew tends to keep the same guys and the girls keep cycling out then chances are good there's shit going on under the surface that the girls are too afraid to talk about until they learn you're trustworthy enough to vent to.
- I should point out we're hospital binmen. Like the binmen you see on the street but with slightly different kit (plus we also collect clinical waste). Only thing more stereotypically masculine a job is probably being a builder, plumber or electrician. Have seen a fair few women doing electrician roles and such in recent years.

Isn't this just fear-mongering? This comic implies that every single time that someone rejects a man that man is going to do something bad. I'm not going to deny the fact that there are men that are unhinged but this is nothing but a man-hating comic.

Over half of women in the USA have experienced sexual violence
1/4 of women have been raped or had someone try to rape them
1/3 of women have been sexually harassed in a public setting.
The leading cause of death of pregnant Americans is murder
There's a good reason why we're cautious.
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/sexualviolence/fastfact.html
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/homicide-leading-cause-of-death-for-pregnant-women-in-u-s/
- I understand that but there is a big difference between being cautious and being a paranoid man hater and that's what I've been seeing a lot of lately. There are a lot of disgusting men in the world, I won't deny that, but to assume all men are like that is asinine.
- That 1/3 feels low tbh. Hell basically every woman I’ve talked about it with has been sexually assaulted in a public setting. Some more severe than others of course but being groped in a bar by someone is such a common experience for women that I can’t help but wonder if they used the word sexual harassment rather than described it. There’s that study that showed if you describe rape without using the word a lot more people are willing to admit to it than if you just use the word.
Hey, go pet an alligator.
Studies show most alligators have no carnivorous intentions towards humans, and usually just want to get away. So probably most of the time they’ll just run off at worst. Maybe once in a while they might try biting back to remove a limb, but surely that won’t happen every single time.
- This metaphor doesn't make sense when you think about risk analysis. If we are comparing humans to alligators here then let's say you go up to 1000 people and put your arm out in front of them. Now do the same thing with 1,000 alligators. Is it more likely that the alligators will be far more aggressive? Probably. Now until this experiment is done we'll never know but that is the reason why your alligator metaphor.
I read that comic much more literally and it think this is true in general. We see something in the news frequently and it can color our whole life. Yea, too many women have experienced an outburst from some rejected guy. Men’s mental health surely is a problem our society needs to do something about. However a random conversation is safe for most people most of the time. I believe women don’t need to live in fear but I’m biased just like in the comic. I like to think both of us want the news to focus on accuracy rather than simple fright or outrage
Yes, all forms of murder are statically rare in the USA and most people of all genders have an extremely small chance of ever being murdered. Homicide of any kind is not even in the top 10 causes of death in the USA. Violent crime is overall lower than it has been in recent decades and is on the decrease. So basically none of us need to waste time or energy worrying about that.
- Except for US pregnant women.
deny the fact that there are men that are unhinged
Oh look... somebody is peddling the "few bad apples" routine again.
- I am not sure if you think that is some sort of "gotcha" but that isn't it. In fact, I'm not sure what you are implying at all. Care to elaborate further?
The comic is not implying that every single time a woman says no to man, that man will do something bad. It is saying that often when a woman wants to say no to a man, they have to do an internal calculation to answer questions like "Can I trust this man to respond okay to a No? How likely will they say something rude, or escalate to harassment? What do I do if he gets physically persistent? Is he going to get pissed off if I say no and come after me when I leave?"
Usually the answer is "he's probably fine", but women do have to go through the calculation much more than men typically. And that's kinda fucked up.
The comic is saying "just say no" ignores/dismisses the non-negligible risk of just saying no.

When I was still with my last partner, we were open: she was dating as was I.

She DID do the, "hey, you're nice but I'm just not feeling it" to a couple people she met and they were absolutely shitty about it. If it wasn't a comment about her being a "stuck up bitch" it was something else. A couple harassed her via text for days afterwords before she blocked them. This was probably half the people she met.

Nowadays if I meet a woman I totally get if they don't want to connect outside of an app before meeting and I don't think they're (necessarily) assholes if I get ghosted. People's behavior has made this sort of thing necessary so I try not to take it personally.

So yeah, all you saying this doesn't happen... hate to be this guy, but it totally happens. Listen to women every once in a while

Yep. I'm a guy and I've seen the absolutely shitty and vile responses female friends have gotten on dating apps for polite rejections. I used to get annoyed when I would send someone an introduction message and get nothing back but now I 100% understand why. Because even a polite rejection could lead to a terrible interaction and this stranger doesn't owe me shit.

I want to remind people of a different advice that similarly gets people into bad situations:

"The worst that can happen, is they say no. Go shoot your shot"

Yeah, that's the worst that you think may happen. The worst that can happen is you misjudged the situation and now you're making someone fear for their safety, and you're a horrible creep in the eyes of anyone they talk to. You may get into trouble with your employer, friends, family, you really don't know. And you only have yourself to blame. And don't underestimate the effects of shame (as in: feeling guilty about something bad you did)

I'm not saying flirting is never permissible, but you should set boundaries based on the perspective of the other as well. The advice "worst case, they say no" is not at all asking the question how the other would feel being approached in this way. They may have more to lose than you do

As a woman I think a much better approach is “if it’s an appropriate situation go ahead and flirt, but pay attention to if she flirts back. And most importantly trust her words over her behavior.”
I’m not attracted to men, but I don’t mind them hitting on me in appropriate situations. I hate that I get asked out at work (not even public facing). Hell, there’s one man who I knew socially who hit on me, noticed I wasn’t reciprocating, then stopped and became platonically friendly instead. That made me trust him quite a bit actually.
- I think a LOT of men just dont see the flirting as flirting anyway. They miss the side-eye (or mistake the nervous social side-eye). I know I missed a LOT of "signals". I was better when she just said "hey I have a crush on you, do you feel the same?"
  You're probably more in-tune with the signals people show. With B/G relationships I feel there's a lot of separation society puts inbetween the two so they dont really grow up together understanding each other. So here in the UK that would be separate gendered schooling, separate clubs and activities that are historically accessible or presumed upon each other.
- I'm more saying that this is how some men talk themselves into hitting on someone in inappropriate situations, or (in their heads) blur the line without realizing. Missing signals isn't only realizing years later that she was into you (a cliché story), but also "they're just being friendly, it's not flirting" (doesn't get said enough)
- As a man, when I was still dating, I loved when women made it clear they weren't interested or had a boyfriend. They were some of my best friends. We could go out and have a good time and there wouldn't be any sexual tension. We could talk about other people they liked or I liked. I'd wingman for them and they'd do the same for me.
  I had one date where we planned on hanging out at her apartment to watch a movie and pretty much as soon as she invited me in she told me that she wasn't interested in dating or doing anything with me. We were laughing and joking the whole night. We had an absolute blast and for years even after she moved and married her husband we'd still talk.
So, girls need to make the first move.
Just asking doesn't make most people feel fear. The problem is that men don't just ask.

The media cherrypicks for max drama. Your fear is their feast. So you might want to take what they say with a grain of salt.

You are 10000x more likely to get hit by a car than bludgeoned by an incel.

I have never met a single woman who didn't have their own story of aggressive stalking, sexual assault, or violence. Myself and all my friends and family included.
- Yeah it's a mess, there are some proper pigs out there. The comic still feels a bit like somebody hears about child abduction on the media and the punch line is that it's somehow insensitive to suggest to let the kids go to school on their own.
  I wouldn't be surprised if more men are victims of this too than one would think, or i got incredibly "lucky". I remember when i was a kid, skateboarding in the city, i would go to the toilet of the main train station if i needed to. There were almost always men masturbating and looking over to me, but i didn't understand back then, although i found it very uncomfortable, the smell of that toilet may have done its part though, haha.
  When i was older, going home from the club i used to pass the are of the same train station and it must have been a place for male prostitution at night, i had almost every weekend cars stalking me, randos asking if i wanted to jerk them off or some shit. I didn't feel scared though, which seems a bit weird in hindsight, but i never change my route home.
  Later i also got randomly jumped and beat up, out of the blue, in the middle of the night by two guys. That one was actually traumatic and it took me half a year to not think about it anymore.
I think I understand what you're saying, but don't discount the point here. I think the author is speaking to the experience of being a woman in a first world society. It's not necessarily always incels that react to women with violence, or the threat.
I'm look both ways before I cross the road and I've never been hit.
I have been subject to male shittiness (catcallling, groping, abuse and physical abuse when rejecting advances) and I still go about in the world but I will mitigate my risk by keeping myself as safe as possible (let friends know where I am, be on the phone, don't wander around in the dark dressing how I would choose) pulling out the fawn flight or fight when required.
Well, yes but no. This isn't just about incels and really predates their visibile presence online. The for-profit media companies do absolutely profit from "engagement" which they achieve by pushing stories that make people fearful.
However, there is much more to the picture. I didn't understand, myself, when I was younger and it took maturing, listening to women around me, and experience as a supervisor for customer support to get through my skull how fucked up and different the experience is that women have in life. Talk to the women in your life and it is likely that they have experiences feeling threatened by men, being treated as incompetent and belittled by men (especially in technical fields), not having their health and medical symptoms taken seriously, or outright sexually assaulted. They're often taught that they just have to go in with life because this is "normal". The statistics show that over 15% of women and 3% of men in the US gave experienced sexual assault and that's with an estimate of 75% being unreported, so likely a larger number.
TL;DR Yes, corporate media is fucked up but, just because slapping the asses of female coworkers is no longer acceptable does not mean that sexism is gone and women don't have legitimate reasons to fear for their safety around men. As unfortunate as it is for the majority of us men who don't engage in awful behavior, it's a lot worse for women who have to think "is this a guy who is going to murder me if I say 'no'?".
- Yep. I don't dare share my opinions at work any more because of my experiences with "nice" men who wouldn't lay a hand on women.
  And I'm paid for my opinion. It's not just sexual assault. It's the fabric of our lives.
1 in 5 women are sexually assaulted in their lifetime. Nearly all women have at least a scary or negative experience. This is not a rare thing.
i can't say trans women shouldn't be allowed in women's safe spaces but yet you can regurgitate this BS and get upvotes. feminism is dead.
- I'll have you know that my gurgitation is entirely fresh and original.

Yes, we need more diversity in our shooters
I'm married but I still approve this message.
As a man, I will say the very nature of this "solution" is paradoxical.
As I'm sure you know, some women do hit on men, when they feel safe. For example when they're out with their girlfriends I've seen women turn into absolute horndogs, doing cat-calling, questionably appropriate touching, even in some cases full on sexual harassment, the whole 9 yards.
Your statement begs the (fair) question: why don't women feel safe openly flirting like that all the time?
In general (i.e. when they're alone), women tend to be afraid to hit on men for the same reason as in this comic, it's just a little harder to grasp/explain.
Let me try: If a woman, alone, sees an attractive man, alone, and decides to "roll the dice" and hit on the man by herself, what are the possible outcomes?
he could be nice, flirt back, and she'll end up liking him and they'll go on a date
he could be nice, flirt back but she might still decide she's not interested and try to say goodbye
(less likely, but still happens) he could give off weird/creepy vibes, and when she tries to walk away, he could try to hurt her or take advantage of her
What you have to understand is that for the woman, Outcome #2 is almost equally scary as Outcome #3. Because women know that regardless of whether they're a creep or the nicest guy ever, a lot of men don't handle rejection well.
I'm not saying you would do this, but ask yourself this: how would most men react if a woman comes up to flirt with them & she changes her mind half way through the conversation & decides to leave? Will most men be okay with it and move on? Or will they take it personally in some way and feel mistreated or get upset with the woman for "leading them on for no reason"?
I have to say, as a man who has interacted with lots of men from lots of cultures, most men, including myself at times, do not handle rejection in a healthy way (even though I've never lashed out at a woman for rejecting me, I've put women in uncomfortable situations out of the fear of rejection).
That is what more men, I feel, need to recognize in themselves, in order for any of this to get better. It's not about normalizing women flirting with men. It's about normalizing men responding to rejection with grace and humility. The attitude of "ah well, better luck next time!" would be so much healthier than the immediate victim mentality most men assume, which is "what did I do to deserve that rejection?". And that is why women have such a hard time feeling safe doing any of that stuff.
- I’m not saying you would do this, but ask yourself this: how would most men react if a woman comes up to flirt with them & she changes her mind half way through the conversation & decides to leave? Will most men be okay with it and move on? Or will they take it personally in some way and feel mistreated or get upset with the woman for “leading them on for no reason”?
  Though this would probably solve itself if women hit on men as much as the opposite. Men feel mistreated in that situation because they “got their hopes up” and then dipped. If that wasn’t a rare occurrence and they had women hitting on them, say, once a month, one rejection wouldn’t hurt as much.
  This is all just theory of course, it’s such a huge societal change that I don’t think anyone can reliably predict the outcomes.

As a man same
Feels wrong to approach people in public because it might inconvenience them/make them feel awkward
And I am too worried about romance scams/organ harvesting for online dating
What happened with me was I made a great friend and we decided to start dating years after we've met and known each other. I have no experience with dating apps and stuff like that were you meet a stranger to them immediately try to have such a close relationship, never really understood how that could work (maybe my autism speaking there tbh) but it just feels so backwards, isn't it better to start with a friendship, with no intent on starting a relationship but going there once we find out that it's somewhere we both want to progress to. Maybe this craze for quickly starting a relationship with a total stranger is a product from romance novels and the lack of free time of our current culture? I don't know but I know I love my boyfriend very much and we started as just boy friends.
- isn’t it better to start with a friendship, with no intent on starting a relationship but going there once we find out that it’s somewhere we both want to progress to
  I definitely think this is much healthier, but if you don't have the time to make a large network of friends until it turns out one of them happens to be single, interested in you, and has known you for a long while, it just isn't a choice.
- I'm so glad to not feel so alone in this. A thousand times YES.
  I met my wife over an MMO and we were close friends for at least a year before we decided to take it further. Our relationship has been strong for over 16 years and I can't imagine my life without her.
  It seems to confuse the heck out of single friends/relatives when I suggest seeking out hobbies and interests or church groups, or volunteering or whatever, and finding someone you want to spend more time with and seeing where that goes.
  Neoliberal capitalism ultimately tries to reach its tendrils into every facet of our lives to make our human experience a "product" or "marketplace", and what are dating apps, if not "online shopping for a mate"? It reduces people to products, the same way job applications do. People reach for it because they don't know any better or it's convenient, and end up disappointed that the men are pigs and the women are shallow.
  It's the same reason you aren't likely to find a quality relationship by hanging around in bars before the apps happened. It's just a bazaar of "mate hunting" and any meaningful connection made is a mere numbers game.
  Of course you're also right that there's a negative feedback loop here with the job-life-takeover situation. Many people feel like some exploitative app is their only chance of meeting anybody outside of work. People are too burned out to do anything but work anymore, and social culture has degraded to such a point that walking up and talking to someone you don't already know is "creepy and rude."
  Tragic stuff.
- I'm not too young and I've been in a good number of relationships. The best ones happen when you're not looking for it or trying to date. It's worth it to try I think though, a romantic relationship is unique, and even if you think you're the worst, no one else sees you the same way you see yourself.
- That makes me sad for you. I hope you remain open to chance.
Being a straight woman in this day and age is so unfortunate, I feel bad for y'all ngl

Well this subs gone down hill real quick when the male haters start coming out the woodwork. Yo everyone most people aren't like this...most men aren't like this. Woman are as capable as men to do fucked up shit in relationships. Time to leave this sub.

If your reaction to "Men can be threatening to women." Is "Wow all men are murderers I guess we can't talk to them anymore thanks feminism." You're probably a little too emotional for internet access.

It's not all men are murderers, it's enough men are sexually violent that 1 in 5 women are sexually assaulted in their lifetime and pretty much all women have a scary story. Yes, it's a minority of men, but when there's enough of them that you have a very real chance of being sexually assaulted at some point then it's going to be scary regardless because you don't know which ones it is.
Your reaction to that shouldn't be "oh it's only 20%, most women aren't raped and the rest need to suck it up because it was just a scary experience", it should be, "that's fucking terrifying, I should be understanding and helpful".
I see where you're at with the "too emotional".
In my subjective experience, gender issues bring out the worst in Lemmy. There's a small but very obnoxious contingent out there ready to fight, even if they have to put words in your mouth to do it, like you've pointed out.

sees posts

Seems reasonable, yes, men are more likely to be aggressive / dangerous.

sees comments

...anyone wanna make a purplepilldebate community?

The fediverse is filled with the type of bury their heads in the sand men's rights activists that this comic is speaking to. And it's sad to see it fall on deaf ears.
So much for all their high-brow Marxist ways.
- 🤡

Never approach a woman under any circumstances lest you run the risk of unintentionally making her fear for her life, gotcha. Just ignore women unless they approach you first. They're scared of you because you're a member of the dangerous sex, and that's just all there is to it.

None of this is saying don't hit on women.
It's saying that some men are complete assholes when they're rejected, and so it's not a simple and straightforward thing to reject men.
Don't invalidate the experiences of women who have had reason to have trouble. Don't say stupid shit like "just say no, why do women gotta do things like ghost people," etc.
And if you do hit on women, don't give them a hard time for rejecting you! They're allowed to say no, for any reason, and they aren't required to justify themselves to you.
But absolutely continue to pursue women - respectfully.
For anyone agreeing, this is the exact mindset that will prevent you from escaping incel land. There's subtlety and growth and understanding to be had if you ask questions and discuss in good faith. Making glib comments and knocking down straw men is not the path to happiness and self improvement.
Yes, do this. Please.
Can't tell if you're being ironic?

When their research to find that one "This strategy is guaranteed to get you a date!" Doesn't play out the way it's promised

When they don't get what they think they're "owed"...

As a man this sort of thing is terrible. Public outings shouldn't be overshadowed by fear of attacks of any kind.

That said this comic is extremely close to fear mongering and it definitely generalizes the male population.

Be smart people. But don't think your negative experiences rule the world.

When 1 in 5 women experience sexual assault in their lifetime, it's not fear mongering. And that's just sexual assaults. If you include scary experiences of threatening men hitting on them, basically every woman has that experience.
- My eyes were shut to this for such an embarrassingly long time. One time while on the phone with my sister she was catcalled/harassed. I could hear it and asked "what the fuck was that?!". She shrugged it off. It was normal to her. The fact that she was so cavalier about it really opened my eyes to how different the female experience is in this world and it breaks my heart.
  Girls, feel free to be loud about this (if you feel like it, if course). It's a big deal and (assuming my experience is typical) the men in your life might be clueless to the severity of it.

I don’t think a year has gone by since I was a teenager than I wasn’t painfully aware of myself when in public. It was much worse at 11-16 than it is at 37. But…as a small woman I have been followed in parking lots, into stores, recorded (I started recording back) and just the general less threatening long up-down lascivious staring. My rape experience was in my own bed in my own house in my pajamas. The last tinder date I had before I met my spouse tried to force me into their car. So when people give all sorts of sage advice about ways to avoid it..or like many are saying that it’s rare…I also want to say I don’t know any women who haven’t had an uncomfortable experience. I am incredibly mindful that this behavior is no universal among men, but experience shapes my own behavior. Don’t be mad when we cross the street or say no.

Further, saying no behind closed doors is something even more terrifying. Sometimes I’ve had relations I would not have if I thought I was safe to do so.

Just my personal story, mind.

Wow the comments here are really poorly informed. Women getting sexually assaulted isn't some rare thing. 1 in 5 women get sexually assaulted in their lifetime and nearly all women have a scary experience. It's not some rare thing that's being drummed up through fear mongering, it's a very real threat all women have to worry about.

Frankly, I don't want to hear the opinions of a bunch of men who never go outside and have no real world experience about the reality of sexual assault.

Men get sexually assaulted as well, difference is nobody gives a shit.
- They are, and we should care more, but women are still 10 times more likely to be assaulted which makes their daily fear far more elevated, and the assaults against men, are still being perpetrated by men, so it doesn't even really change anything.

If nothing else, this thread gave me a new respect for the shit women go through. Sorry, ladies, this is total bullshit.

I honestly didn't expect to see a top comment here with this:

What feminists et al call “the patriarchy” is just the collective of social standards and expectations, which do obviously exist, but the ‘conspiracy theory’ part is in the deliberate anti-male name they use for it

I'm so sorry. This is awful.

I'm certainly feeling disenheartened after all this. Idk why I thought lemmy could do better.
- When it comes to misogyny, Lemmy often outstrips Reddit, which is saying something.

I'll tell you, as a man who often walks home alone at night, it's never the women I'm scared of. I know how to defend myself, and I'm not small, but I still keep my guard up when I meet a man on my walk home from work.

Yes it's not all men, but it is in the vast majority of cases men, and that merits some sense of caution.

I thought the panel after the subway would be the guy turning to her and saying “could be you next, can i get your number”

Mods, please maybe keep an eye out and consider whether this thread might need to be locked in the immediate near future. Comment section is beginning to get polarizing, and that shit belongs on Reddit

"I like discussion, but only the kind I like should be allowed."
- This is what happens when your ideas are so fragile they can't withstand a discussion. People used to welcome debate / opposing ideas. Now it's seen as "triggering" and must be suppressed. This is how we end up with nerfed echo chambers. It's very intellectually stunting. Personally, I find it boring to only be in rooms where everyone agrees all the time.
- Not even. I like to discuss and debate civilly, and I have zero patience for those who lack civility.
  But go on, make me your enemy, I won't stoop to your level or anybody's. There are no winners when things devolve into senseless arguing and attempts to put others down. So go off loser, you do you.

There extremely fragile men who lash out when violently when they get rejected or lose. I remember reading a case about a girl who lost her left because she beat a guy in a game of basketball. Rejection happens just move on.

Did she forget her laundry bag on the metro?

Of course it sucks feelings like you’re intimidating/freaking someone out. It sucks to be in a shop with another woman and it’s clear they are in their heads about all the dangers that I may be for them. I’ve done therapy over that. These feelings are damaging for both parties but I understand the feeling. I’m mot sure what the answer is, is some of the fear irrational? A little bit, sure. Though there is enough data that confirms those bias. So I’m not sure what the answer is, I just think (some from experience) that that type of constant fear is damaging to the psyche but at the same time the fears make sense and can be protective. It’s shit, I hate it. I empathize with both sides but I don’t know what the solution would be.

There is a trauma in being feared - ask any Muslim who was in the US circa 2001-2008

You have nothing to fear but fear itself.

I’m an advocate for better forms of transit around cities, using trains/buses rather than an SUV for everyone. But, I’m also aware that fears such as this are what drive the purchases of those iron tanks to help you get from point A to point B without incident.

Fears drive the sale of personal transportation? Where do you get that information? I work in the auto industry so im genuinely curious if you can point me to some further reading that helped form this opinion. Will make for some interesting conversations at the watercooler if you can help me with some solid articles.
Much appreciated if you got some
- It comes from inference and remembered statistics, but: While critics of SUVs often expect they’re mostly purchased by fragile men looking to overcompensate, I’ve heard it said that a BIG demographic for their sales is to women - possibly more than men.
  When they can convincingly make sales that occupants of their cars are safer, it kind of makes sense as a purchase, both for women themselves (looking not to get assaulted at random in their way to work, get crushed in a car accident by men with road rage) as well as mothers with children and a protective instinct.
  It’s perhaps a more psychological expectation, but I can imagine that constant media that makes the world seem unsafe, and many SUV ads with women drivers add a lot to it. After many occasions of feeling exposed, they want some part of their life where they feel powerful, protected, and in control; something they don’t get from taking buses or trains, nor from smaller cars.

Are you careful with guns?

Do you need to know that the gun is not loaded before treating it as such?