anyone else both afraid to smile at men, but also afraid to not be nice?
like, if I'm nice (as I would prefer to be), a man might get the wrong impression, but I'm also afraid to be rude or do anything to upset them so I have to be the right kind of nice or polite - it's a real double-bind, and something I don't experience with women
As someone who was raised male, I can shed some light on this because it is absolutely a thing: Men are starved of emotional connection in their relationships with friends and often emotionally stunted as a result. Our culture doesn't allow men to have emotionally fulfilling relationships with other men outside of very specific circumstances, often revolving around life-or-death situations or simulacrums of such situations (stuff that replicates war usually, like sports or hunting), so any sort of attempt at an emotional connection like a normal friendship has comes off as intimate or as romantic interest. Normal stuff like hugging, cuddling, or even just physical touch is largely off limits for men.
I don't know how to deal with it, but it's not just you. This is a verifiable phenomenon and why we get so many "2 guys sitting in a hot tub, 5 feet apart, 'cause they're Not Gay" style situations.
Maybe they should try being gay then.
Oh wow! This one turned out to be serious mod-fodder!
Thank you Lady Butterfly, foxglove, and dandelion for being the very busy filters that keep out the trash.
This is one of the advantages of being old and grey haired. If you smile at a man, he just thinks you're a daft old granny.
As a trans woman, I generally don’t make eye contact, don’t talk, and try not to take up any space by existing, so attention doesn’t get drawn to myself. I wish me and my people could get off the national stage, and get back to living healthy lives, instead of dealing with the direct consequences of fascism.
It can be pretty difficult in the workplace. You try to network, get along well with your colleagues, be helpful and smile just to find out some guy thought you were flirting. Depends a bit on the work culture and industry, but in some places guys will go out together and help each other/build a network but as soon as you try to do the exact same thing with male colleagues they think you're flirting.
As a man, if I’m nice to a woman, they think I want to sleep with them. 50/50 chance they’re rude back. Jokes on them, I compliment everyone if I have the chance.
Hi, not sure if you're aware but this community is Women'sSuff, a woman only community for women to discuss women's topics with other women. Rule 1 says women only quite clearly. We appreciate your input but would prefer you relay your experiences elsewhere in future.
As this is a female-only community, quoting a female coworker I coincidentally discussed this with today:
“I used to change my behaviour sometimes because I was told it could be interpreted as fancying the male I'm talking to. Now I realize that's not a my problem but a they problem. I talk to whoever, however, and if they ask me out I just say no.”
“Voila, it's all about communication.”
“Exactly.”
er, I'm not sure quoting another woman is a suitable exception to the rules - maybe in the future please refrain; I appreciate your enthusiasm and desire to contribute, but it's important that we respect the rules
Bro said "female"
Farken Ferengis
So you read the rules and you commented anyway?
It's a trans-inclusive women's com, no one's checking chromosomes.
I don't have this problem because men don't typically see me as the kind of woman you sleep with. I'm free to be friendy.
Of course, don't play too far or they'll think you're just playing "hard to get" because these men have it in their minds that every woman wants to sleep with them, and the ones that don't are a "conquest".
yes, it's a real double bind, and it's even worse because I'm afraid of what men will do; one time a man was frustrated with me and they literally physically grabbed me and started to push me- I know they feel they have a right to touch me, so I want to be polite and nice to avoid their anger or frustration, there's a real sense of danger and wanting to placate
And what's that, you're a lesbian? And you just want to be friends? Obviously you've just never had the right man (note: The speaker always believes himself to be the right man)
I love so much face masks because at least that social cue can't be taken for flirting when I'm wearing it.
that's a good point, it's like a social cloak!
That is the only condition I'll smile in public.
This goes the other way too - can't be too attentive ("nice" def isn't the right word, bcs never be an asshole) bcs both man and women act (!!) like that when they have "romantic intent".
I have to wait a couple of years to treat my friends/colleagues the way I want to (classic example: if I see a thing that makes me think of you/that would be useful to you, I wanna buy it as a gift - can't really do to most folk after you've know only for a couple of weeks without it being weird).
All the time. Normally I'm nice and I'll smile if we're having a pleasant interaction. I have a major RBF and when I'm out in public I automatically counter it with a "happier" look to avoid the "you should smile once in awhile" comments 🤢. Fortunately (unfortunately?) I am not most men's type(overweight) so they generally leave me alone but the grandpas omg. I'm definitely the type for grandpas, they latch on the second I smile at them and do not stfu. I volunteer at a senior center so I am all smiles 100% of the time. One of the grandpas told me how much he loves chubby girls and told me about this TV show where people pick someone to date based on their naked bodies and gushed over the chubby girls basically describing me.. gahhhh!! I wish I was like the lady in the screenshot, it would be easier if I wasn't worried about upsetting them lol.
"Think you're beautif-"
"I have no interest in men. I will never want to fuck you. Odds are you're more enthusiastic about fucking someone who looks like you than I am."
"Got it got it"
(30 seconds later)
"So, uh, you wanna make out"
It's really clear you've either never presented as femme while outside or never spoken to a man.
Just a reminder:
WomensStuff is a trans inclusive women's only community. Do not comment unless you are part of that group
I agree with you but it’s a minefield. And the goalposts shift. For example, one time I was leaving a bar after stopping for food on my way home from work. I brought a comic book to read as a signal I didn’t want to chit-chat. This took place in the parking lot, with a guy easily double my age, and I’m no spring chicken.
“Hey baby” (yelled from halfway across the parking lot)
“Not interested, thanks.” (Said dismissively)
“Bitch, I don’t want to fuck you!” (Said extremely aggressively)
“Not interested in a conversation either!” (Said in singsong)
“No wonder you are here alone, cunt.” (Intent obvious)
Like.. no shit? I made myself unavailable for a reason, but even minding one’s own business isn’t enough to escape abuse.
I honestly have a hard time telling difference between good customer service and flirting
thanks for your comment, but unfortunately this community has a rule that only women are permitted to comment or post, so please don't comment further
hope you understand 💛
Thanks for your work in this thread Foxglove
Ok that's fair
Oh wait sorry not sure what to do now
I never smile at anyone for free. And at best they get business bees. Nothing more, nothing less.
business bees, lol - I love it
for some reason this is reminding me so much of this character from a British sitcom called Coupling, her name is Sally and she is beauty-obsessed; one day she realizes her smiles are causing wrinkles, so she declares she will from then on only smile at single men 😆 then we watch her attempt to only smile at single men the rest of the episode
Damnit, and here goes my business plan for free smiles :(
I sometimes have the problem that i manage to be nice to a male coworker because they are likable but them they seem to be annoyed or something (maybe just in my head) and then i wonder if they are annoyed because they think i am into them. And then i act like they are irrelevant or i'm not interested in talking so they don't start to think other stuff or get get annoyed or scared, eventhough i like talking to them. And i hate this so much about human interaction in general. It's so much easier with women and it's sad there are so few women at my work.
it depends wildly on my mood, catch me on a good day, i might smile and wave, maybe even say something, bad days, your getting the finger >:3
What was that about getting fingered?
I'm kinda the same with most women. Not mean, but don't bend over backwards because you batted your eyes or are objectively attractive.
Just find us low self-esteem dudes, we never think anyone is hitting on us.
I'm sorry you suffer from low self-esteem 🫂
thanks for your comment, but unfortunately this community has a rule that only women are permitted to comment or post, so please don’t comment further
hope you understand 💛
Please note: this community is women-only, please read the rules before commenting.
They woooont
Excited to learn I'm welcome after reading the rules. Ha.