jointhefediverse.net - Why was Lemmy removed from the list of fediverse alternatives?
jointhefediverse.net - Why was Lemmy removed from the list of fediverse alternatives?
Contribute to jointhefediverse-net/jointhefediverse.net development by creating an account on GitHub.
jointhefediverse.net seems to be a commonly linked resource for directing people to join the Fediverse.
Curiously, it does not list Lemmy under the list of Reddit alternatives. Their GitHub README explains why.
Previous relevant discussion: https://lemmy.ml/post/78808
You're viewing a single thread.
Lemmy was removed due to:
- reports of how the developers handle certain types of content (post removed, view an incomplete archive)
- the behavior of its creator
- how the sotware itself handles users' privacy.
All valid concerns.
No, they're not.
how the developers handle certain types of content
Doesn't matter if you stay away from .ml.
the behavior of its creator
Kind of valid, but open source and open license negates a lot of that.
how the sotware itself handles users’ privacy.
You think anything else on the Fediverse is better? When you post something publicly, it's public. Doesn't really matter what the software does. If you don't have End to End encryption, it's not private.
These concerns, and more, are why just today, during a conversation with some friends looking to get off traditional social media, I advised them to join pixelfed, peer tube, mastodon, and loops, but suggested they strictly avoid Lemmy.
The communities aren’t right for anyone who isn’t seeking something exactly like Lemmy or leftie-Reddit-lite. I don’t even really like it here all that much anymore. Not the content; the interactions… across all my accounts.. even joining “nicer” spaces is not a particularly nice or pleasant experience, plus the more interested is a woman, and Lemmy is a horrible sausagefest echo chamber not at all suited to a normal average woman person who isn’t techie. I’m techie, so I’m used to the vibe, but for your average cis-woman, Lemmy is a very very bad fit.
Bring on the downvotes if you like (the echo-chamber anti-voice sentiment is part of why people shouldn’t be recommended this platform, after all) but these are legit concerns for people who may want to join, and those of us already here can and do steer people elsewhere as a result.
Lemmy is a horrible sausagefest echo chamber not at all suited to a normal average woman person who isn’t techie.
Far be it from me to point out this is exactly how reddit started.
The foundational promise of lemmy and the fediverse writ large is freedom from proprietary software and closed-protocols; the kind of people who are going to be interested in seeking out those types of alternatives are going to gravitate toward techy men.
It takes time for new social media sites to fan outward from their initial adopters, that's just how it goes.
Fair points, to be honest. We can all do better.
The linked post given on the second point is a bit flimsy. It's basically saying that if you use evidence published by a person with shitty views, you must have them too. To me, that's absurd as claiming that referencing FBI statistics makes someone a federal agent.
Point 1 and 2 really need to be addressed.
It would be so much better if lemmy wasn't developed by genocide white-washing tankies.
https://piefed.social/ is catching up
Python based: I was looking for that
Yeah, I don't expect it to scale well. Certainly not as well as Rust.
In terms of incoming federation, PieFed sites are dealing with as much activity as any general Lemmy instance. It's not happened yet, but I suppose it's possible that problems will become apparent if the amount of local users gets over a certain size. A limit on the amount of users per instance isn't necessarily a bad thing though (it's cheap, and hopefully easy enough, for someone to spin up another one).
Any way to migrate a self hosted lemmy instance to piefed?
No, it's not geared up for that. There's a platform called sublinks where the intention is to be initially compatible enough with Lemmy that it can be a drop-in replacement, but they haven't released anything yet.
Oh interesting, thanks for sharing!
just run both!
Have you checked how muh software do you use that is enabled by capitalism?
You should ask it on lemmygrad.ml :D
Excuse me?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SDF_Public_Access_Unix_System
wow that's interesting :D
SDF is pretty rad.
Yee
To me the first one is an instance problem (ml, hexbear?), and not a lemmy problem. It has looked like they've been trying to separate the two as much as possible.
But the Lemmy project and specific instances are not so easily separated. From the archived mastodon thread:
lemmy.ml (the official Lemmy instance) resolves to the same IP address as lemmygrad.ml (the instance that contains the most disturbing material).
Lemmy.ml also federates with lemmygrad, and the devs advertise lemmygrad on their "join lemmy" site.
Do the Lemmy developers themselves run the lemmygrad.ml site? (Its main logo is a tank, incidentally.)
So yeah, newcomers are presented with a join-lemmy site that promotes Lemmygrad and Lemmy ML, both of which appear to be run by the Lemmy devs.
That pretty much makes it a Lemmy problem.
On what basis can anyone declare one instance to be the 'main' one? I've seen a number of people claim the same thing about .world, but none of them need to be considered the 'main' ones. The entire motivation for the creation of the fediverse is to allow segmentation.... I think people simply want to make it an issue because without these little cross-community spats things get boring.
I agree that ideally the concept of "main instances" is beside the point in a federated network. Let's call them "flagship" or "onboarding instances" then, the initial ones set up by developers as proof of concept that usually get the most traction by way of being open for registrations the longest.
I think it's disingenuous to classify the decision to omit Lemmy from a list of fediverse software as "a spat", though. Bringing it up again 1½ years later probably fits the bill better.
Unfortunately, .ml is a default instance and the main devs instance, what happens there reflects on all of us
It was made very clear from the start that .ml was not meant to be a 'default instance'.
Too bad for all of us that it is though.
How was it default? I've been here for years and in all that time, it was never default. It was one of the most popular, and the most widely shared, but that's not the same at all.
Default where?
I don't see it on that page. Going to "See all servers" lists "lemmy.ml" at a random position in the list. Looking at "Join a server" and using "Generic" or "All topics" also lists it in a random position. Am I missing something?
If you use "Most active", it will shows up after lemm.ee and the other big instances. So not default, but would still be recommended to new joiners
Well to me that doesn't fit the "it's default" description.
While looking at that, I couldn't see lemmy.world on that page. I found that join-lemmy.org now excludes instances with >30% user share in order to dampen centralisation. Which makes sense I guess.
To me, the only solution to this is to do a hard fork. Take the code (It's AGPL), rename it if Lemmy is trademarked, and encourage admins to use it and contributors to target it. Maybe start a non-profit or LLC while we're at it.
Sublinks is doing a rewrite
Good luck finding Rust devs interested in link aggregators. That fork would probably fall behind, and people would switch back to Lemmy as they keep delivering features.
Mbin and Piefed use more popular languages and haven't caught up yet
Instead of trying to fork, maybe we try and go the Gotosocial way and make a MVP smol version. Something that can house 10 or so users. People can spin up whatever they want.
Honestly what I wouldnt give for a reddit theme on mastodon that uses their hashtags as the communities themselves. That would be cool in my opinion.
To be honest, at this point forking the jointhefediverse website would probably be easier
deleted by creator
This is why I'm looking forward to Sublinks launching.
Piefed is more promosing. Sublinks has been on hold for a while now
The links from the github in case anyone wants to learn more (in order of the list):
https://web.archive.org/web/20210901023138/https://mstdn.social/@feditips/106835057054633379
https://raddle.me/f/lobby/96713/heads-up-the-tankie-behind-lemmy-ml-got-banned-from-r
https://raddle.me/f/lobby/155371/warning-lemmy-doesn-t-care-about-your-privacy-everything-is
First link is completely unviewable for me on mobile, the entire thread is a chain of posts that say “Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression” with a show more button that doesn’t work, and the original thread is gone. Could you(/someone) paste what it says? I’d try on desktop but our internet has been out since the fires started in LA
Entire thread, all from the same user:
Post 1
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
Human rights mean a lot to me. I joined the Fediverse to make the world a nicer place. My efforts are pathetically small, but hopefully make at least a tiny difference.
I used to recommend Lemmy very strongly, thought the people who develop it were nice folks interested in making the world better too.
However, recent discussions with the developers has changed my mind completely.
I am very suspicious about their motivations now.
1/6
Post 2
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
Lemmy's developers say "we are strictly against all forms of oppression (including genocide), and dont allow anything that promotes or supports oppression" and "We definitely are very staunchly against bigotry or persecution of minorities, and are strict about banning that".
This is difficult to fully reconcile with what actually happens on the developers' own instance, and those they feature.
2/6
Post 3
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
The problem here isn't Lemmy's politics, but their attitude to threads about human rights violations.
On the face of it, the developers' main Lemmy instance has lots of uncontroversial general interest threads, but when you start digging on controversial topics a worrying pattern emerges.
The worrying posts are very reminiscent of the way certain churches have handled priest abuse claims: denial.
3/6
Post 4
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
There's threads denyng the oppression of Uyghur muslims (this oppression has been well documented by NGOs, for example: https://www.amnesty.org.uk/actions/help-end-repression-uyghurs-china).
Other posts deny that North Korea is oppressive.
Meanwhile, another suggests celebrating Stalin's birthday as he was such a great guy.
(Incidentally, I have receipts, DM me if you want to see them for yourself.)
4/6
Post 5
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
You get the picture.
These posts were on the main Lemmy instance, as featured on the official Lemmy website.
Over the past few days I have tried to engage with Lemmy about these posts in private, as I was sure it must be a misunderstanding.
However, Lemmy said that "none of the posts you linked are against our rules", and refused to even discuss the actual issues because "this format is not conducive to political disagreements".
5/6
Post 6
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
I deeply regret ever having publicised Lemmy. I'm really sorry.
Don't use Lemmy.
For whatever my opinion is worth any more, I would now recommend that people cancel their donations to Lemmy, stay as far away from Lemmy as possible, and donate to another Fediverse project instead.
I was wondering whether to stay quiet, but it seemed better to speak up and say something
6/6
Post 7
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
p.s. I put the wrong link for Amnesty, the Uyghur report is here:
Post 8
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
p.p.s. Someone has pointed out that lemmy.ml (the official Lemmy instance) resolves to the same IP address as lemmygrad.ml (the instance that contains the most disturbing material).
Lemmy.ml also federates with lemmygrad, and the devs advertise lemmygrad on their "join lemmy" site.
Do the Lemmy developers themselves run the lemmygrad.ml site? (Its main logo is a tank, incidentally.)
Post 9
Please don't use Lemmy :( Human rights, oppression
p.p.p.s. There was an older "reddit for the Fediverse" project called Prismo which had some working instances at one point.
Perhaps someone could resurrect it, to provide an alternative to Lemmy?
Thank you!
since the fires started in LA
Sorry to hear
Thanks, fortunately I’m not in any evacuation zones, it’s just really bad air quality here
Wait wait.....what's that last one?