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I don't think many people are saying that Biden is the same as Trump or just as bad as Trump. I think most progressives, for instance, would agree that Biden is better than Trump, it's just that that's such a low bar. I mean, are liberals really surprised that people aren't all that impressed with a president whose main selling point is that he's not as bad as the only alternative? Now, I get that liberals don't see it that way, I understand that liberals, apparently, are really very happy with Joe Biden, but for the rest of us he is only the least bad option.
In some parts of Lemmy, they are absolutely making that argument.
I would imagine those people are Marxists, or other anti-capitalists. If you're somebody whose primary litmus test is whether a candidate is pro-capitalist or anti-capitalist, you might not see much of a difference between Biden and Trump because they are both staunchly pro-capitalist. But I think those people are overrepresented on lemmy and only make up a very small percentage of the actual US voter base.
Or perhaps these people live in the middle east or africa and every day they get a taste of "capitalism".
Really? Because those folks have family here, and they say "stop using our dead relatives as an excuse to let the fascists come for us too you insensitive porcelain American shit bags!"
This is the answer.
On Lemmy, yeah. The political leanings here is different than the body politic of America.
It's very weird to see people say "Biden is awful. I won't support him anymore" and get "Why didn't you say that about Donald Trump?!!!" thrown back at them.
At some point, insisting that Donald Trump will ALSO do a genocide, so you need to donate all your money to the Biden campaign and block walk for him... Fucking bananas.
Even Obama didn't get this kind of Ride or Die support from Democrats.
It's because Trump has said he wants the genocide to be stronger. Biden wants it to end, but isn't doing much to stop it. Trump also wants to go after minorities in the US.
Obama didn't get the same support because his opponent wasn't even close to as bad. Trump has already tried to overturn democracy. Republicans have also put together a plan to innact a Christo-fascist dictatorship (project 2025). The elections with Obama were business as usual. This election is, for many people, life or death, and potentially the last hope for democracy.
Also, Obama was cooler than Biden but he wasn't better. Honestly, I think if you were to compare their actions as president, Biden would be better. He still sucks, but he's much better than I expected (very low bar). They're just not great at communicating what he's done.
Trump has said he wants the genocide to be stronger.
And Mitt Romney said "Double Gitmo". That doesn't absolve Obama or Biden for keeping the illegal torture prison open during their terms.
You don't absolve yourself of genocide by saying "Well, it was either me or Mega-Hitler"
No one is saying they're absolved. Where have you heard that?
The fact of the matter is that if you don't like genocide or gitmo or whatever other horrible things, you should vote for the person who at worst wants to maintain the status quo of horrible things.
That said, Obama wanted to close Gitmo. Biden has also condemned Israel's attacks, and the US has warned them to stop. We've also stopped some military aid to them, but obviously not all. The recent jets, for example, still happened, but they're air-superiority fighters which serve no use against Palestine. We've also continued to send a lot of other defensive aid, though offensive has slowed down if not stopped. To imply Obama or Biden didn't try to do anything is ignorance at best, if not an outright lie. The fact of the matter is that much of it is handled by congress though, and republicans in congress will stop a Democrat from doing essentially anything.
That said, Obama wanted to close Gitmo.
Obama said he wanted to close Gitmo. He gave up forever at the very first setback.
Sure, and we can question it, but we can't know what he will do. My understanding is that he really had not control over that though
Oh geeze what's worse a bigger war crime prison or bringing a genocide against Arabs to America?
Because the reality of our shitty political system is that not supporting the only viable non-fascist candidate means supporting the one that is. It only actually matters in the handful of swing states, but the internet is worldwide and heaping negativity about supporting the non-fascist candidate can matter. This doesn't mean you shouldn't criticize Biden and the Democrats for their many failings, but not supporting him in the election for the sake of the country is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Because the reality of our shitty political system is that not supporting the only viable non-fascist candidate means supporting the one that is.
Isn't this a little disingenuous? Or maybe individualism is so ingrained in the western psyche that people honestly don't see the asymmetry of this framing.
The reality of our political system is that the only way to get change is to demand it from the people who need your vote. By giving your vote without demanding change, you're supporting the system that disenfranchises you (and you're supporting the binary choice that was given to you by it).
Isn't this a little disingenuous?
No, not even slightly
not supporting the only viable non-fascist candidate
If
You're
Doing
Genocide
Then
You're
A
Fascist
Candidate
You are aware that fascism already has a definition, correct? It's not just someone doing something that you don't agree with.
Please don't water down a word that has very serious implications right now.
It’s not just someone doing something that you don’t agree with.
Are we trying to do moral relativism on genocide?
The IDF knowingly and deliberately bombed food aid workers in clearly marked vehicles on a road designated for food aid delivery, entirely for the purpose of starving out war refugees.
They did that with munitions built and supplied by the American government.
And when questioned, the American National Security Secretary said it was the IDF's prerogative to bomb them.
This was deliberate, calculated, cold blooded murder of aid workers done with the participation of the US military under the command of President Joe Biden.
Everything you just said has nothing to do with fascism and is therefore irrelevant to the term.
I'm not saying that any of that is ok, but that doesn't make it fascism.
Everything you just said has nothing to do with fascism
Polices of genocide and the ideology that justify it are both elements of fascist tendency.
Deliberately ignorance of the existence and perpetuation of genocidal policy is traditionally referred to as "Holocaust Denial", another classic fascist technique.
Holocaust denial is to deny that the holocaust happened, which was indeed a genocide.
Fascism is a type of government characterized by centralized authoritarian leadership, often with a dictatorship. Typically, power is maintained through violence, and the military is used to suppress any opposition.
I agree with you, genocide can be an element of fascism. However, it does not define fascism. Your argument is equivalent to saying that all engines are war machines. They can be, but not all of them are.
Are we done here with your bullshit false equivalences?
Holocaust denial is to deny that the holocaust happened
It is to deny when a holocaust happens. What is happening in Gaza right now is unquestionably a genocide. And Biden's role has consistently been to defend that genocide.
I agree with you, genocide can be an element of fascism. However, it does not define fascism.
"They're doing a genocide, but they're not doing a fascist genocide" reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of how genocides are conceived of, executed, and rationalized after the fact.
Are we done here with your bullshit false equivalences?
This conversation is a difficult one for a liberal to hear, because it forces the liberal to observe things about their own country that they don't want to recognize.
So its very common to assert "Yes, foreigners did a bad thing somewhere else, but it could never happen here. My country and my generation could never be so complicit."
And yet, here we are.
Exhibit A
Even Obama didn't get this kind of Ride or Die from Dems
-
He wasn't running against Donald "ban the Muslims" Trump,
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YES HE ABSOLUTELY DID IF YOU'RE SAYING THIS YOU ARE CLEARLY TOO YOUNG TO REMEMBER THE OBAMA GIRL SQUAD
He wasn’t running against Donald “ban the Muslims” Trump,
He was running against Double Gitmo Romney.
YOU ARE CLEARLY TOO YOUNG TO REMEMBER THE OBAMA GIRL SQUAD
You're confusing a publicity stunt financed by the party with an enthusiastic show of support
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Are they literally saying they are the same person? That they share the same atoms?
Or is the point that they are the same in the most important ways?
Maybe your disagreement is over what qualities/policies are most important, but accusing them for being blind is easier than addressing the actual disagreement?
The arguments are that Biden is just as bad as Trump.
And it doesn't occur to you to ask by what metrics they think that? All metrics? One metric? A spattering of metrics?
accusing them for being blind is easier than addressing the actual disagreement
So you agree that people on Lemmy are arguing that Biden is just as bad as Trump.
People on Lemmy are arguing that Biden is just as bad as Trump in the most important ways.
And this is exactly how nothing ever gets done. Only criticize, never do anything, create the feeling that getting involved is pointless because"they're all the same anyway".
I hate that humans are so awful at nuance. People could absolutely praise and condemn the same person for different actions, instead they want to boil down that person's entire existence to "good, bad, different, same". And we all suffer for that
And this is exactly how nothing ever gets done
I disagree, i think insisting on accepting a binary choice is how nothing ever gets done.
So when I said we should be more nuanced... That equals BINARY THINKING FOREVER, or what?
Not at all, I agree we should be more nuanced, but I think the 'Biden is better than Trump' insistence is what leads to this kind of petty argument to begin with. There's a reason why those people are saying "biden is just as bad as trump" - they're being forced into choosing between them, when the spectrum of available action is much broader than 'vote or don't vote', including leveraging that action as a bargaining chip to improve the options on offer.
people are behaving as if there's nothing to do about Biden's inadequacies, and those are the people who seem to lack nuanced thinking.
"FPTP DOESN'T EXIST LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALALA!"
Have you talked with Republicans, though? This has always been the way of a republican. Democrat does bad things, republican does bad thing. To them it’s a wash even though what the Republican did was 100 times worse.
This meme is targeting leftists, not republicans.
The point is that they have the same "both sides do any bad things at all so Dems just as bad" mentality
It reveals how this is all kvetch from the white left, only people raised by Republicans can have this absolutist moral line of thinking
I don't think many people are saying that Biden is the same as Trump or just as bad as Trump.
You wrote this on Lemmy. I don't see how you missed how popular this attitude is.
I think people who want no criticism of Biden choose to believe that any criticism at all of Biden is the same thing as saying Biden is the same as Trump.
I recognize you as one of the people I'm talking about so it's no surprise you'd say some baloney like this
I've never said Biden is the same as or just as bad as Trump. You on the other hand love to be hostile to anyone opposed to genocide.
Yeah, you lie your ass off and say that opposition to your false equivalency means "no criticism of Biden" and also support of genocide.
Great job, facts don't matter, nuance is dead.
I have never and will never say that Biden is the same as Trump.
You said I do, then have the unmitigated temerity to call me a liar.
And yet here you are disagreeing with anyone saying this post makes a good point
That's not saying that Biden is the same as Trump.
are liberals really surprised that people aren’t all that impressed with a president whose main selling point is that he’s not as bad as the only alternative?
When your opponent is Trump, it's kind of hard for that to not be the main selling point; he could be the best president ever and that would likely still be true.
he could be the best president ever and that would likely still be true.
If he were the best president ever, he might have something better to run on than "at least I'm second worst to Trump."
You missed the point completely. But that being said, he barely even mentions trump. This idea that he's only campaigning on not being trump is completely detached from reality.
Perhaps it’s just a case of vote for biden now so trump can be shut out for the next 4 yrs and hope that his senility eats him before the next course