Right turn on red? With pedestrian deaths rising, US cities are considering bans
Right turn on red? With pedestrian deaths rising, US cities are considering bans
Let me preface that I think using vehicles as a primary source of transportation inherently scales poorly, and you can easily argue this by looking at how much a road costs versus a rail and how much mass you need to move per person on car versus train.
That being said, I really hate this article because it relies on anecdotes from various people and opinions without making any effort at citing relevant statistics. It literally cites the TOTAL number of pedestrian deaths to vehicles in 2022. I tried to find some statistics on right turn on red light, but all I could find were 20 year old or older studies, most of which actually concluded that right turn on red doesn't really account for a large number of pedestrian injuries and deaths. Like this one, for instance, which claims that right turning on green can also result in pedestrian accidents which could result in much more severe injuries (I can see how this might be true but there's no evidence to back this up.)
It's interesting for me to look at this from a utilitarian perspective: Surely there is a tradeoff between the amount of time wasted due to traffic increase due to right turn on red, and the time equivalent to the amount of lives lost due to RTOR (assuming RTOR results in more deaths). This of course is an incomplete/flawed way to look at things as we don't give highway collision motorists the death penalty for causing huge traffic blocks; iirc though it is how a lot of safety studies are done (look into how the statistical value of a human life is determined from highway transport administrations).
I would really appreciate if someone could chime in with some actual stats and numbers (though I doubt they're readily available) about the topic, rather than some anecdotal comments. I'm not a fan of symbolic legislation that doesn't provide real benefit (think plastic straws bullshit), and I would like to see a convincing take on whether or not this is that.
I don't have stats this is pure anecdotal. My experience in Seattle is that I'm overwhelmingly almost hit by cars when we're both going the same direction and they're turning right on green. Not just compared to right on red but all situations where they almost get me. I'd also love real stats on the matter though
Having the green light coincide with a walk signal is basically coaxing drivers to strike pedestrians. In crowded parts of a city with idiot drivers behind me, I've actually had people try to pass me on the right (and drive into pedestrians) after laying on their horns while I was making a right because I was properly waiting for pedestrians to clear the intersection first.
It's bizarre that they set the traffic up this way. They should make a right arrow and have it red, or do pedestrian traffic while the red's still on or something. But a green light with a walk signal is very stupid.
Anecdotally, since COViD it seems like for right on red, people blast through at full speed without slowing. It ‘s certainly scary trying to cross a street even with a walk sign, but I haven’t died yet
I'm My State when the lights turn green to take a Right the pedestrian light also gives the pedestrians the green light to cross. So we have cars turning right while pedestrians are crossing. How much safer is that. At least now when you take it right on red the pedestrians don't have the right to cross.
Yeah you're supposed to yield to pedestrians yet there are no signs indicating so, it's so dangerous
Right on red also causes terrible traffic problems at busy intersections as people who don't have the right of way turn right while people who do have right of way get stuck waiting to turn left or are forced to block the intersection.
I wish my city would get rid of it, at least in downtown areas where traffic is a problem and a lot of pedestrians are walking around.
In general, urban signal-controlled intersections are just the traffic engineers screaming "I've tried nothing and am all out of ideas."
We use them pretty much by default in the US, but most urban areas should be vastly cutting back on them. All-way stops and, of course, roundabouts are both provably FAR safer often with no impact or a positive impact to overall congestion. Plus, pretty universally much cheaper to build and maintain.
Signal-controlled designs should be reserved for intersections where it is literally not possible to fit a more passive design while maintaining sight distances or for places where truly huge traffic volumes are involved (a significant interchange) where no other traffic flow redesign is possible.
Using traffic lights is ALL about increasing level of service. Which is just code for "The city values keeping more cars moving faster over both safety and financial responsibility."
All that to say, I bet a lot of the intersections that would be most annoying without right on red... don't really need to have lights controlling traffic flow in them at all.
Aren’t roundabouts typically significantly larger than an equivalent intersection with traffic lights? If so I’m not sure that’s what we need in urban areas. We already give up so much public space to automobiles. There’s also the question of where does that additional space even come from? Do we bulldoze more homes? To me it seems real solution is to move away from personal vehicles in urban areas. Anything else is just trying to justify an inefficient and unsustainable lifestyle.
Roundabouts are pretty cool n and I definitely agree we should use those more (my experience with them is great when people aren't total morons) but you're insane if you think 4 way stops don't affect traffic. Where I live they've put in lights now multiple times at intersections like that and it immediately makes traffic better.
" All-way stops and, of course, roundabouts are both provably FAR safer often with no impact or a positive impact to overall congestion." This is a pretty big statement to make, and I was wondering if you could provide me the sources for this.
"The city values keeping more cars moving faster over both safety and financial responsibility."
But isn't keeping cars moving faster financially beneficial? From an energy perspective, needing to stop for every stop sign is way worse on fuel economy than going through a string of green lights and stopping every now and then. Don't get me wrong, I think using cars as a main mode of transport is incredibly stupid, but I think there must be some tradeoff between time/money/resources wasted due to traffic and time/money/resources lost due to premature deaths or poor living quality due to (non)fatal accidents.
The US is too car-dependent to make a drivers license harder or more expensive to get. Less safety is the price we pay.
If someone is too stupid to learn to drive safely maybe we don't need them participating in society anyway.
Yep, and we are generally not willing (as a society) to pay decent wages for things like teachers, so getting drivers ed teachers for all student drivers would be not possible. Private lessons would work but that would make it unavailable to a lot of less affluent people.
It all depends upon state. I think the learners permit requires another licensed, adult driver to be in the vehicle and has other restrictions.
That said, I'm with you. I originally learned to drive in rural Ohio. I moved to Japan and finally decided to get my license. Since my Ohio license expired, I had to start from zero. I spent two weeks knocking it out at a training camp (there's a restriction on the number of hours of practical training per day, so there was a fair amount of free time). First, had to pass some basic checks. They did start practical on the first or second day on their closed course. There's a mid-point test that one must pass before being able to go out on the roads. There's a number of hours more of this and then two final tests (course and driving).
I got my mid-sized motorcycle license this year and that was also a number of hours (I want to say 17 altogether since I had a regular car license), though exclusively on the closed course.
There are at least 50 different systems for getting a driver's license in the US since each state issues its own license. Some states are far more rigorous than others. My home state has a system similar to what you describe only it includes an additional 40 hours driving with another licensed adult, in addition to the hours spent driving with a certified instructor and the classroom hours.
The state I live in now? Not so much. They basically just give out licenses to anyone who shows up, pays the fee and can show that they know what the different pedals do. Unfortunately this produces terrible drivers, as you would expect.
Why not enforce the "pedestrians have the right of way" thing?
Changing traffic laws will have some effect, but really we should be working on more lightrail and more high-speed trainsets. It will take time for housing and business to rebuild around stations, but it will simultaneously keep people safer, alleviate traffic, and reduce emissions. Nothing more satisfying than flying by traffic for less than the price a gallon of gas, especially if you live a decent distance from work or school too.
Drivers should not have the option to decide for themselves when they think it’s safe
I hate this sentiment. They don't want people to think for themselves.
Think they mean that most people don't have the necessary knowledge to determine whether a specific action or inaction is safe. Which is absolutely true.
Drivers are becoming hostile and idiotic by the day. What you'll also notice is when it is green, they will stop instead.
Need higher or more severe penalties if this is to save lives
Personally, i think every infraction on the road should require your Drivers license gets revoked until you go to the dmv & retake your drivers test.
Speed? Blow a stop sigh? Illegally park? All of it should require a retest in order to regain your driving privileges..
We don't have right on red in europe. Can't imagine crossing the road to a median with it
Right on red for us would be like left on red for you
Remember, our roads are flipped
Europe drives on the right. In that part of the world it's really just the UK and Ireland that drive on the left.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-_and_right-hand_traffic
Ah shit but of course
You're missing the point. At a right turn, traffic is coming from the left and pedestrians are coming from the right. You focus left to make sure traffic is clear and then go, meanwhile a pedestrian has entered the intersection from the right and you don't notice them.
You stop. Look left. Then look where you're going then go. If you look left and drive without looking right, you're fucking up.
I can conservatively say that 99% of the time I approach an intersection, I see all potential pedestrian crossers long before I've come to a stop, including those on the other side of the street planning to cross towards me. Pedestrians rarely appear out of nowhere, so looking left but not looking right is a poor excuse.
You think pedestrians are hiding in bushes waiting to jump out?
In a densely populated city with lots of foot traffic? Sure, ban right on red, too many cars in cities to begin with.
But lots of cities have spent decades expanding and there's hardly anyone walking once you're a couple miles from downtown except for certain areas. Same for small towns.
Making it all legal one way or the other in a state just makes zero sense.
What's wrong with just putting up a sign by the light if it's not allowed?
And at green lights, you don't even stop to look for pedestrians. You look while in motion. I'd figure that would actually be the less safe situation. Are there studies either way?
I can confirm that approximately 0% of drivers stop before turning right on red in my location in the Northeast, as well. I have actually had other drivers chase me through traffic to catch up with me at the next light and get out of their vehicles to threaten me because they were so angry that I stopped before turning on red, like you are legally required to do. It's absolutely insane.
People treat a right turn on red like it's their own personal green light and everyone else just has to get out of their way. They don't look to see what's coming and most of the time they don't even slow down first.
There are intersections where if you're familiar with them you know what is safe. For example at one intersection near me if I just miss the green I know the next signal is to give cross traffic left turn greens, which means no one else can be going into the lanes. I do stop, but only for a brief moment because there can always be inattentive drivers doing the wrong thing.
Of course I'm not one to really get pissed at folks for not conforming to my driving preferences, so that part is weird to me, but I do get annoyed when someone stops for like 20 seconds with no traffic. If you do that, you might get the shortest toot with my horn I can manage to wake you up if you've somehow forgotten you can turn, but that's it.
I don't go anywhere with so tight a time margin that an extra minute or two in traffic is going to matter.
If i get a dollar every time I've been honked at for stopping on a red I can live a much comfier life
Someone honks I'm going too slow? Guess we're sitting here until a green light. Turning right on red is a choice.
I was in the US a bit over a month ago. Started to cross when the walk signal became green. A driver went into the crosswalk we were stepping into, only looking left and never coming to a stop until she saw the guy crossing from the other side. She never saw us once and nearly ran us over. We don't have the equivalent here (left on red) in Japan and we do fine. Get rid of it.
It often results in dangerous situations. It also keeps bicycling from becoming commonplace. Way too dangerous to bike in most areas.
They should ban slip lanes too
With the advent of smart traffic lights I don't really mind losing right on red. But right on red is not the source of the issue The article shows there are studies that it's not the issue. Removing right on red is not going to improve the numbers.
The traffic light systems are complicated enough to handle camera data. How about we eat extra indicator lights when people are in the crosswalk? How about we put up some barriers and bad areas to keep people from jaywalking?
Unfortunately, like in so many other areas, the US is trending in the wrong direction compared to other countries. Traffic deaths is one of those areas.
look at the size of the most popular vehicles for various nations
issues is vehicle size to skirt fuel regulations not having the loop hole closed
I’m not sure that the National Motorists Association, and organization that thinks drunk driving laws are unfair to motorists and claims to be a “grassroots organization” but refuses to provide any membership statistics or funding sources is a reliable source on the topic of right on red laws.
I don't know where you live but in my suburb of Detroit right on reds is definitely a problem. I can be waiting at the light, ready to cross as it changes and some car drives up to the green and turns right into me without looking. What is your hurry? What do you need to get to 30 seconds faster? I will always vote to make it safer for pedestrians and bicyclists.
Uhh not by default! The pedestrian crosswalks need to be hooked to the light, and timed better. When a pedestrian needs to cross (with the button), then no right on red—after the cars go. That way there isn’t a rush by anyone.
CHICAGO (AP) — Sophee Langerman was on her way to a bicycle safety rally in Chicago’s Lakeview neighborhood in June when a car turning right rolled through a red light and slammed into her bike, which she was walking off the curb and into the crosswalk.
About time.
I have a better idea... ban pedestrians!
for real, why can't they just get a job and a car like normal people?
This seems weird. Do you guys not have arrows for turning traffic? Just one set of solid lights??
She wasn't killed because motor vehicles can't make 90deg turns with a city corner radius at 50mph. (Drivers would if physics allowed)
This is OK and we really need to update speed limits and enforcement with what we've learned about safety since the 60s
I live in Charlotte and they can ban all the want and it won't change anything. CMPD doesnt enforce any traffic laws in this city.
unless it’s that time of the month for quotas or you dare driving while black not a whole lotta traffic enforcement anywhere
cops are so fucking lazy in my state
numerous red light runners right in front of cops
Lights have to get smarter. Right on red is half the traffic flow in my area.* I always see so many situations where a green turn arrow would be appropriate, and yet the intersection is relying on the right-on-red rule instead, causing each car to pause when it should be flowing through. And even more situations where a light always stops the majority direction of traffic on what must be a fixed timer that poorly syncs with some upstream lights, because it always seems to turn red as a clump of cars arrives, even when there's almost always no cross traffic. Maybe right on red is more dangerous in some places, and we can get rid of it, but we have to replace it with some actual civil engineering instead of making traffic even worse.
*±100% margin of error, sample size 1
How the hell did you get 0.5 cars going right on red? Did a car just plow through multiple houses between going straight and turning right at an intersection?
Your -2 comment score leads me to believe some people didn't get your joke. I'll explain it, which we all know will make it funnier.
The previous comment mentioned their observation of half of the traffic moving through right on red and, later in parentheses, said this was based on n=1, i.e., based on the observation of a single vehicle. I'm 100% certain that was a joke.
The follow-up comment was also certainly a joke. They're pointing out that the commenter observed one car and then made the claim half of cars use right on red, so they're jokingly asking how exactly half of one car made it through.
Get it? Now stop downvoting the dude, stats are great, stats dad jokes are better.
Totally agreed, and from the pedestrian side of things, civil engineering would be helpful too.
Our roads are too fucking wide for pedestrians. Give me some pedestrian islands and raised crosswalks.
I'm more interested in giving pedestrians a direct route that doesnt need to cross fast traffic.
This has gotta be the number one traffic issue in the US. Our timer lights are just garbage and we so rarely use sensor lights. Our traffic light setups always seem overcomplicated but not over engineered.
Pedestrian signals are slow too. Have to wait a long time to get the WALK signal, and its rarely necessary as it's already illegal to not let a pedestrian go at a crosswalk if you're turning into it, in my state.