Make it about me

Honestly, I agree men's issues do need to be seriously discussed, but it's wrong to hijack discussion about women's issues to talk about men's issues. The reverse is also true.

I've actually seen the opposite happen more often than the former. Both online and irl. A guy starts complaining about things and a cacophony of women show up to tell him how he'll never understand what it's like to be a woman.
Whenever I do see the opposite and when the guy interjects all that's said is "there's a time and a place to talk about men's issues" but like when is it then?
- Both scenarios are possible and it is shitty to use whataboutism in both scenarios.
  Whenever I do see the opposite and when the guy interjects all that's said is "there's a time and a place to talk about men's issues" but like when is it then?
  When it’s not being used as a whataboutism.
- Go start your own thread then if it's important to you. That's the whole point, don't hijack the conversation. Sucks when it happens to you, don't do it to other people as revenge.
- Man just going for irony right away, eh?
  Whenever I do see the opposite and when the guy interjects all that's said is "there's a time and a place to talk about men's issues" but like when is it then?
  Probably not in the thread with the comic about womens issues being talked over by men, like you're doing now, would be a good choice.
- You are showing exactly the behaviour that the meme is criticising.
- there's a time and a place to talk about men's issues" but like when is it then?
  Not when women are discussing theirs. It's that simple.
- I don't think I've ever seen the opposite, where the dude is holding a reasonable opinion or complaint.
  Meanwhile this comment section is an example of the comic itself
I agree with this and I'd also add that bringing up men's issues to try to silence discussion of women's issues then harms men as well because people associate discussion of men's issues with that type of shit behaviour.
- Some men misinterpret whatever complaint as being about them
  I think that's reasonable if the complaint is about men in general, or specifically calls out all men.
- For sure social medias are a big part of it.
  I understand that "all men are trash" and the likes are generalizations about men, not me specifically. But when you see these lines make rounds and rounds again, it can makes you question yourself even if you've done nothing wrong. And that's a big hit to self-esteem and anxiety.
I'd like to, whenever possible, move away from women's issues or men's issues towards people's issues.
- It's a good thing to do that, but some issues really are heavily affected by gender
That's the problem... When is it time to talk about men's issues? Specifically, in a group that doesn't listen to Peterson and Andrew Tate
I agree with what you said, but I think the solution is to talk about everyone's issues instead of men's issues. Men's issues aren't about the men, they're about how men relate to others.
Women's issues should have their place, but men don't need the same thing... Instead they need everyone to show up and talk about their own issues
- Bring it up in a space, any space, that isn't there for the purpose of talking about women's issues. Make a community now. Write in it.
- That’s the problem… When is it time to talk about men’s issues? Specifically, in a group that doesn’t listen to Peterson and Andrew Tate
  You can start a conversation.

I feel like men do have it tough and when men start talking about it, they get shutdown and told to be a man. Boys dont cry afterall. So some men may feel its unfair when women speak up and are heard. So they want to make it about them. In the comic, just as the men are dismissive of woman problems, she is dismissive of mens problems. Instead of attacking an unfair weath class system, we bicker about shupid shit like men vs women. Its not race, gender or sexuality we should be discussing. Its social, weath classes.

The time to talk about men's problems is any time you like, except when a woman has just started talking about women's problems. If you redirect a conversation about women's problems, you're telling the women that you don't care about their problems. If that's the case, fine. Just don't contribute, and let people who care discuss the women's problems do that. Start another conversation about men's problems elsewhere.
- Fair. Just that nobody cares about mens problems, especially women.
- Whataboutism at its core I think.
she is dismissive of mens problems.
Not as presented. She's being actively interrupted and trying to stay focused on her original topic.
Did you just call gender-based discrimination a side contradiction?

Why does everything have to be so us-vs.-them? We all share the same planet.

This is potentially gender construct and sexism getting directly in the way of advocacy against real issues. Women start a protest advocating against a very real issue they face, by women's for women, and it is spun as a direct attack on men. Same thing happens for men's advocacy.
"...For the Master's tool will never dismantle the master's house. They may allow us temporarily to beat him at his own game, but they will never enable us to bring about genuine change. And this fact is only threatening to those women who still define the master's house as their only source of support..." - Audre Large, in "Master's Tools Will Never Take Down the Master's House"
I don't think most would blame many women for the practices they do in public to stay safe, despite the behavior explicitly being sexist. This is because we understand that in absence of these kinds of behaviors, women do actually get prayed upon, most often by men. It's the reality of a dangerous world. however, we get angry when the statements and phrases used to justify these behaviors are said aloud.
What we fail to acknowledge is that that same kind of victimization is possible to a guy. Most guys would find the idea of deliberately using the bathroom at the same time as their friend as weird, possibly even girly. Machismo stereotypes and trying to conform to manliness actively makes men more vulnerable .
We also downplay women being violent, yet again a gender stereotype which not only lets women get physical in public, but actually also makes women easier to dismiss when they're angry and yelling. This not only lets women get away with toxic behavior, but robs them of being taken seriously at other times.
These are both issues caused by gender, which is also actively defining how advocacy happens and creates an arbitrary divide.
- I liked this comment. You wrote with the nuance and balance that I strive for. Thanks for sharing
- Is outrage all that new? It strikes me as evergreen
Because humans like to make up categories which naturally cause inequality of some kind. I don't want this but it's the way it is and to pretend otherwise is ignorant and silly.
Sometimes certain subsets of the planet have problems particular to their region, culture, or cohort.
Telling a person wandering through the desert "I also get thirsty" maybe deflects from the issue at hand.
- Telling a person wandering through the desert "I also get thirsty" maybe deflects from the issue at hand.
  Or... That may be a show of support, in sharing of a common burden, a message of, "You are not alone in this struggle."
  Rather than always seeing it as a negative, maybe allow for the possibility that it's coming from a different place.
  Honestly, I feel like this whole sentiment of, "Don't attempt to bring any context into a conversation. Only stick strictly to what one person has decided to talk about." is not only counterproductive in that moment, but also in the medium and long term has a marked effect in shutting down future conversations about difficult and uncomfortable topics.
  I mean, how many times does a person get into a conversation that starts with, "Can we talk about X?" or "Let's have an open, honest discussion about Y?"...only to add something to that conversation and be told, "No, you're wrong for bringing that up. We're only talking about X and why it's the worst thing ever."... before they get to the point where the next time someone says, "Can we talk about Z?" they just say, "No, sorry. Not interested."?
Many of these problems while not strictly zero sum are pretty close to it.

The way this comment section unironically mirrors the comic perfectly.

So many dudes here unironically talking about how men have it hard too 🤦‍♂️

It's kinda pathetic lol. How is it so hard for people to understand that maybe the best time to talk about problems affecting you is not when someone else is talking about problems affecting them?
- Typical!
  When can we talk about men?
Men have it worse in every way, so you should focus on that.
It's kind of crazy and laughable. All these dude unirocally making this about themselves. Make the opposite meme and watch the victim-bros therapy group unfold.

I'm just going to speak my mind as a Closeted transwoman who would looks like a guy

I didn't honestly want to get involved with this thread at all in fear of creating an absolute mess

But being trans myself I see myself having empathy for both woman's and men's rights because I know and understand the issues men are facing and see the issues woman are facing

I don't like seeing the devide on either side and absolutely hate seeing the division and fighting especially when people advocate for men's rights or woman's rights

I personally advocate for both because I see everyone having rights as part of equality and equity and if you don't want any one group to have rights then that isn't equality or equity

We should be free to talk about both men's rights and woman's rights without being attacked for it

Even in these comments, people don't get it, lol.

Cmon. It's a straw man argument and the comic is intended to be polaeisiing.
Both sets of issues can coexist, and I strongly suspect that many issues have a common root.

I've noticed this an uncomfortable amount on Lemmy. Being trans, I've started bringing up my pretransition experience/traumas living as a dude even if it's not relevant whenever I talk about a women's issue that effects me because I don't get taken seriously otherwise.
Well, actually, lately I've taken up just not talking about women's issues, and really just commenting less frequently over all, because this whole place is like a mine field of people who just wanna argue. Every time before I hit send I have to think "Is somebody gonna think this is about them and get pissed with me?" And 99% of the time the answer is yes.

I'm sorry you had to deal with that lemmy is definitely a bit more wild in terms of strong opinions, some very cool people on here but also a lot of immaturity.
I'm not trans but isn't that a normal thing to think before posting? I'm fine with saying to my friends "(wo)men have hurt me in the past, and it makes me less trustful of them" but I wouldn't comment that publicly, since either I get weirdos saying "yeah I hate (wo)men too" or weirdos saying "the other sex does this but worse!" Either way they don't get what I mean, so I'm going to be very careful with qualifying what I say. It's a hot-button topic and it sucks I have to do that just to share an experience, but a lot of people are sensitive (myself included) to perceived attacks. I still get people misunderstanding it, but that's usually 1/100 instead of 1/5. It sucks that it doesn't feel like a group of friends, but there are a lot of communities on lemmy that will ban people acting like jerks (lemmy.blahaj.zone for one)
- I suppose I just had higher expectations for Lemmy tbh. When I first joined on the first instance I found, the community was so nice, supportive, and in general just an amazing place to be where it felt like anybody could have a reasonable discussion about anything. It just really, really quickly devolved into what every other social media site is.
  I did find using the app Connect to block lemmy.world where I assume most of the most toxic people land purely on account of its size instantly reduced toxicity in my feed by a massive amount, but it also unfortunately blocks half the content on the site and I also don't like that I have to block plenty of reasonable users as collateral to achieve it.
I know I'm just one person, but your experiences are important and imo, necessary for women's liberation (and human liberation more generally). I'm not going to say "you should share your experiences" because I get how exhausting it is to be challenged on basic shit all the time and that means commenting can be akin to self harm if overdone. I guess I'm just trying to expand that 1% of non-assholes into a larger percentage.
I say this as a cis woman whose feminism has gotten a hell of a lot more intersectional in recent years, in part due to trans friends. Knowing trans women in particular has helped me to feel more at home and happy in my own gender (femininity and its relationship with womanhood is complicated). Having lived as a guy for a chunk of your life no doubt means that your lived experience (especially with respect to gender) is messy and complex, but that's great, because the world is messy and complex. At least, it would be great, if more people were open to listening to you when you share. I'm sorry that you have to do the cost:benefit analysis before commenting — that part is something I can relate to.
Pshhhh, noone here is going to argue with you. You're wrong /s
Seriously though, sorry the internet is full of hatefull people. Thank you for what you have shared in the past. Some of us do benefit from hearing other people's struggles, but just don't comment as much. Negative engagement usually outweighs positive engagement on all social media platforms.

I was really hoping the comments here would be better.
Embarassing, tbh.

I follow a lot of women on socials, including this artist, and this shit happens on pretty much every post they make. It's crazy to me some of them have the willpower to continue creating and posting because i sure wouldn't.

I love when I'm explaining a struggle of mine that is cause of who I am and then being enrolled in the oppression Olympics.

Yeah well imagine what its like being a non-binary half black half Mexican person with disabilities. Ugh I'm so tired of privileged people like you whining about how no one will listen.
- Woah, woah.
- I wanna say that's never happened to me when I was talking about my experiences. But .. I can't.
It's almost like assholes can't keep their mouths shut when people don't talk about their needs. If only society created less of those, that'd be nice.

Okay, I'll just say it.

Everyone has it rough right now. Mostly because we've been thoroughly railroaded by corporations for most of our lives, but still.

Everything sucks.

WRT the first panel, I feel that way too.

That said, is this ragebait?

Yes.

Responding directly to the person in the comic

I hear you when you say that as a woman, you feel societal expectations of you can be harsh and contradictory.

There isn't a way for me to experience the same things that you experience, but I can try to empathise with your experiences by comparing them with my own, and noting times when I have felt the same way. This means that I have to compare my experiences with yours. It isn't done from a place of contest, but from trying to relate.

Good point. I think in a case like this it's useful to explicitly point out that you're trying to relate, and to format your response as a question so as to demonstrate that you're actually interested in her experience. The fact that she will likely have experienced a lot of bad- faith responses will mean that we need to tread carefully when trying to compare our experiences.

I get what the comic is saying but from my experience men dont ssy this because thats the whole problem with mens mental health, tho women do get ignored but not in favor of men just generally. Point is the world is shit, and yes everyones mental health is shit.

To everyone saying they've never seen this happen, but the opposite happens all the time, I'd like you to try something. Show this comic to a woman in your life and ask if they've ever felt this way. Just try it, and listen more than you talk.

It's possible that having your concerns dismissed by people with different life experience than you is a universal phenomenon.

Ah, yes. Nothing fires up a debate quite like making someone else's problems about you

Usually it's a case of a well thought out decent post, but then you scroll down to comments and it's "men are trash" and etc, so you end up with a bunch of fighting, which detracts from the original point.

Prolly would be better if "comments on this are disabled" was more common practice.

Or if administrative systems actually punished people heavily for saying stuff like "(any group of people) are trash"

If the comments are threaded (like they are here), I don't get why any point can be considered to derail conversations. That's just one branch. If you don't care to discuss that branch, just scroll past or minimize it and find another branch or start your own. They can all be discussed in parallel.

No one called her derogatory epitaphs, totally unrealistic. Also more SA threats need to be there and a few death threats.

They were probably in the Reddit comments though.

Guys is it misogynistic to not like misandry?

Also last time I heard anyone even talk about the MRA crowd was like 10 years ago

All lives matter type shit. We live in a patriarchy, the least you can do is listen to those most affected, women. Don't expect compassion if you can't show it.

Exactly how I am sure poor white people have it bad in this system(and it needs to be addressed), yet those primarily affected by racism have to come to the spotlight, exactly this way men have problems(and need to be addressed), yet those primarily affected by the patriarchy have to come to the spotlight, women.

Conflating one social problem (patriarchy) with others (economic inequality and poverty for example) is harming the cause and it's disorienting, it's wrong. When we talk about the patriarchy, the discussion should not be diverted and those mostly affected are women, so we talk about women's problems and how they experience it. That goes for queer people's problems as well. It goes for any underprivileged/minority social group. That's it.

We live in a patriarchy
I don't even know what this means anymore.

I hope that poor woman takes something for that terrible cold she has.

WUT ABOUT MEN?!??!?

After this election I agree. We are toxic animals that should be killing ourselves.

"Wamen" is one of those jokes that has taken a new meaning in the context of my marriage. But I always come close to saying it around people who don't know that.

sounds like baby Ramen, and now im hungry

an attack on men and women! well done @HenriVolney@sh.itjust.works

Look, my cis white male cultural heritage is colonialism and centering my experience

Honestly same thing happens when we talk about men.

Tons of women coming up, saying "women have it worse" and attempting to minimize the importance if men's issues.

Let's just listen to both sides for once, and make everyone heard. When everyone is given a platform to speak, there's no need to interrupt each other.

Funnily enough you're in the comic. Not that I think you intended that.