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I would be curious to see the numbers but I don't think the pro Palestine protest voters cost the Democrats the election. It definitely didn't help, but the Dems shat the bed in way more ways than just the Palestine situation.
Id say anyone with half a brain, paid attention and was an informed voter knew exactly this is what we were in for - but it's clear most Americans are not informed because of the huge number of people who didn't participate (for whatever reasons)
Highly engaged voters voted overwhelmingly for Kamala. Not because they liked her, but because they knew the alternative was dog shit. This is not an ideal situation.
Pro-Palestine protest votes didn't cost the Dems the election, but that a single group was not the deciding factor in a contest does not absolve them of responsibility. IE single-issue pro-Israel voters probably were not the reason for Trump's victory, but they still deserve a portion of the blame in voting for Trump.
And many of these selfsame pro-Palestine protest vote types are continuing their dumbass games even as Trump greenlights fascism both at home and abroad - like everyone fucking told them he would.
Haha it's people with flawed logic like you who deserve all the blame.
People who think like you should have to pass aptitude tests before they vote since they literally lined up behind an undemocratically appointed presidential candidate who had no concrete policy position except vibez and no fundamental changes from Biden.
People who couldn't see an obvious and humiliating loss coming for Harris and the democrats since Biden was the candidate are the only people responsible for this disaster.
The democrats could have given you options. They didn't because they don't care about you. They paraded around a half-dead 80 year old man as competent and made excuses for his ineptitude while telling everyone who said he wasn't fit that they were the ones who were actually crazy. Then they do a last minute bait and switch because he is literally falling apart before the world's eyes. They lied to you over and over and you are still carrying water for them. Does the history of the situation not matter now that Trump is president?
That's exactly why people are being called bluemaga.
Yes, of course, how could I not see that "no fundamental changes from Biden" was a horror worth electing a literal fascist. Thank you for informing me that worsening every issue facing us was the preferable choice in order to teach those darn Dems a lesson. Many of us filthy poors and minorities will suffer and die, but that's a sacrifice you and your's are willing to make, right?
Why are you hung up on the idea of teaching democrats a lesson? Democrats are not owed votes. They have to earn them. They did not earn them this time for a multitude of reasons, but you want to blame everyone else except them and their weak policies, weak campaigns, weak candidates, and shattered moral compass.
You can prefer the slow unnoticeable slip into fascism the democrats were offering instead of the highway to hell version republicans are unrolling, but please just be honest about it.
Biden did nothing to improve American's every day lives. The cost of living keeps going up and all the democrats do is say, "hey, the parliamentarian that you have never heard of says we can't do $15 minimum wage, but we can give ourselves raises and send billions to Ukraine for a proxy war and even more billions to Israel for a genocide. oh things are getting too expensive out there? slow down on the avocado toast. get a job as a coder. see our lives are fine, why are you all complaining."
We were going to end up in the same place whether democrats or republicans won. It's just more pleasing to you draped in blue instead of red. I thought maybe TDS democrats would finally start fighting for Palestine once Trump came into office, but they instead turned their derangement on the people who don't want American to fund and safeguard a genocide. Crazy times we are witnessing.
Why are you hung up on the idea of teaching democrats a lesson? Democrats are not owed votes. They have to earn them.
"Your genocide is an acceptable price to teach those damn Dems a lesson!"
Yeah, I wonder why I'm hung up on that. Fucking fascist.
We were going to end up in the same place whether democrats or republicans won.
Privileged bothsides bullshit. Fuck's sake.
I thought maybe TDS democrats
Mask-off, I see.
You see nothing because you live in an echo chanber. You can't see both sides are playing you because you don't want to believe it. You need a bad guy and a good guy to come save you.
Newsflash: Democrats aren't saving anything except their own asses.
Biden's genocide was acceptable to you. Harris's contiuation of the genocide would have been acceptable to you because it would mean Trump is not in office.
You accept Trump's genocide as well as long as you think you have some moral high ground over people who did not vote for Holocaust Harris. Uou tell yourself, "Yeah, it's somebody else's fault. Not mine for voting for the WORST CANDIDATE IN US PRESIDENTIAL HISTORY. It has to be the people who wanted this to end before it even began. How are my coconut vibez?"
The masks are indeed coming off of bluemaga democrats. That is for certain. These people just as blinded in their rage towards Donald Trump as maga rages against marxists.
The moral highground you believe you occupy is flooded with the souls of Gaza that Biden and Harris allowed to be exterminated and somehow you are blaming Trump for it. It's an amazing braintrick you perform there.
My advice is next time don't throw your vote away.
Well said. I really wish people understood that blame can be shared because they really don't seem to understand that and haven't since November.
They understand. They just don't want the blame and want to shift the responsibility for their irresponsible actions to anyone but themselves.
And many of these selfsame pro-Palestine protest vote types are continuing their dumbass games even as Trump greenlights fascism both at home and abroad - like everyone fucking told them he would.
The dimbass games are posts like this instead of arguing for civil disruption and actions beyond elections. The protesters entire point was the election won't stop the genocide either way and further action is needed. Trying to bait them into an argument about an election that's already fucking over serves nothing. Unless you don't care about the issue in the first place and just want to be divisive about it.
What actions do you suggest?
Any direct action and organizing, frankly. From mutual aid and disruptive protests to boycott, sabotage, and strike(which would take years to organize).
The protesters entire point was the election won’t stop the genocide either way and further action is needed.
And in the interest of furthering that point, they did everything they could to ensure a Democratic defeat. After all, if Palestinians are genocided by Israel, it's only fair that American minorities get genocided by Republicans, right?
Trying to bait them into an argument about an election that’s already fucking over serves nothing.
I'm not trying to bait them into any sort of argument. They're long past help. They're out here on Lemmy already praising Trump as the 'lesser evil' and insisting, even now, that there's no difference between Trump and Harris in terms of policy. Any argument with them is fucking pointless.
But I'm sorry that you don't like that I'm not giving them asspats for their 'principled' stand against American minorities over an issue that, even according to your summary of their motivations, they realized would not be changed by their attacks on the non-fascist candidate in the election.
After all, if Palestinians are genocided by Israel, it’s only fair that American minorities get genocided by Republicans, right?
Solidarity for me, but not for thee. It doesn't work out well.
Yes, this is why the smartest choice for LGBT folk in 1939 Poland would have been to welcome the Nazis, what with Poland being, at the time, far from LGBT-friendly. Because if there's not solidarity for everyone, there should be solidarity for no one.
/s, for all of those out there patting each other on the back over ensuring the fascist won the 2024 American presidential election.
Or maybe when voting makes it impossible to achieve justice you should move towards other forms of resistance, like my original point was. Part of that resistance is nonparticipation. It's an expected outcome. I voted for Harris but you don't see me clutching my pearls over the idea that maybe this system just needs to go.
Or maybe when voting makes it impossible to achieve justice
Oh, of course, when you can't achieve justice by voting, the correct decision is to ensure that voting results in the worst possible resolution. If you can't have justice, you must have as much injustice as possible. The only moral choice, of course. Basic accelerationism. Every good revolutionary knows this.
you should move towards other forms of resistance, like my original point was.
Like fucking what? The easy answer of "We're going to rise up and firebomb the rich any day now :''')" has been parroted by leftist wannabe suburban kids since the 70s; fuck's sake, I've heard the line myself for the past 20 fucking years. And what has happened? Where are these masses ready to rise up, since they find voting no longer radical enough for their tastes?
They aren't exchanging voting for more effective forms of change. They're just abandoning voting, and replacing it with jack fucking shit. They continue to sit on their fucking asses, like always. They don't organize en masse, they don't take up lone wolf violence. They do nothing, except play at purity games to jerk themselves off over how pure they are for abandoning as many minorities and oppressed groups as they can to literal fucking fascists. And you know who suffers for it?
All of us.
Fuck's sake.
Part of that resistance is nonparticipation. It’s an expected outcome.
Are you fucking kidding me? "Resistance is nonparticipation"?
What a fucking joke. Am I suppose to thank these twats for nonparticipating us into camps? Should I thank them for nonparticipating Ukraine into a potential genocide? What did nonparticipation gain us 'revolutionary' elements? Are we better poised to strike against the system now? No? We're actually worse off? Fucking fantastic.
I voted for Harris but you don’t see me clutching my pearls over the idea that maybe this system just needs to go.
"This system needs to go" does not need the addendum "Therefore, I'm going to make the system as terrible as possible".
You think I'm naive for telling you how things work? Believing that someone is going to remain participatory with a government that's genuinely greenlighting genocide like the Dems were because the opposition will... greenlight genocide... is delusional. If that's their primary moral issue, they are expected to not participate.
What's naive is going through this shit since the 80s and actually expecting electoralisim alone to change things. Newsflash, it hasn't. The problems are more fundamental. Whining about someone else not putting work in is similarly unconvincing.
You think I’m naive for telling you how things work?
No, I think you're an apologist for literal fascist enablers. That's different than naive.
But hey, who needs to address any of the points raised? Certainly not you, it would seem.
What’s naive is going through this shit since the 80s and actually expecting electoralisim alone to change things. Newsflash, it hasn’t. The problems are more fundamental. Whining about someone else not putting work in is similarly unconvincing.
Again - what alternative to electoralism is being proposed, here? There's fucking nothing, and no amount of suburban kids LARPing and high-fiving over how pure they are to their online buddies changes that. Sitting here and saying "Disinfecting the wound isn't enough, it needs to be sutured", and then proceeding to prevent anyone from disinfecting the wound and refusing to suture it (and, in this case, 2024, then proceeding to engage in 'nonparticipation', restraining the half-assed disinfectors from preventing a charlatan from rubbing his feces into the wound and proclaiming it healed) isn't some noble fucking stand. It's privileged shite from people who don't seriously think they'll be seeing any of the consequences of their actions.
Yeah, I could call you an apologist for genocide enablers if I wanted to spout inflammatory nonsense, but that was directly my point. Your entire argument about a lost election where you refuse to even consider that there are paths to resistance just because I haven't named things like disruptive protests, boycotts, and general organization is counterproductive. This entire screed is counterproductive. Calling me a fascist enabler apologist when I'm obviously a leftist is the exact stupid games I was referring to in the first place. This is the stupidity.
Pretty much. They didn't offer anything their constituents wanted except for escape from DJT.
Unfortunately "We aren't Donald Trump" wasn't a winning strategy two of the three times they tried it.
I wonder what two terrible choices we are gonna have in 2028. Watch it be like fuckin Nancy Pelosi with an exoskeleton holding her up vs Dan Crenshaw who will have replaced his eye patch with a gun by then.
And, remember, it almost didn't even work the second time. Biden was the only candidate running for the nomination poised to lose to Trump and he was forced on us, seemingly as punishment for us demanding healthcare. They were willing to throw 2020 and would have lost had the unpredictable and extraordinary circumstances of Covid-19 not occurred, along with Trump's absolutely bungled response. Covid-19 was the sole event that propelled Biden to the white house. And then he was exactly as ineffective and terrible as all leftists predicted and we got Trump back because of it.
I think both Trump and Biden handled COVID fucking terribly.
Really most nations handled it really fucking badly. I can forgive initial mistakes like not knowing how potent it was or how infectious it was, but once they knew the masks were pointless why the hell did they continue to push that crap everywhere.
It's absolutely a disgrace how the Dems handled it after an entire year of Trump trying to pretend it just didn't exist or was just a cold and using that in their campaign. Then when it became convenient for them they began to pretend it was over.
Politicians continuing to be fuckin useless yet again.
Well, whoever it is, it'll be them running against Trump, because he's already hinted at running for a third term, and he doesn't give a shit if things he does are illegal. And again, whoever it is the Dems pick, they'll be such shitheads that they'll lose the election against Trump again, for the third time. There is absolutely no chance whatsoever they learn their lesson in the next four years, because democrats are mentally incapable of even considering they could ever do anything wrong.
"two"
I'm not really sure what you were trying to get at with that comment. Are you implying that it wasn't two times that Donald Trump won?
Oh sorry. "Two" parties.
I question even that: Did they really? Where did the party articulate a cohesive plan (or hell, even just an enthusiastic promise) to counter the rise of oligarchy?
They promised an escape from him stylistically, but the majority of citizens who aren't political junkies weren't sick of it, because they weren't exposed to it, because they don't pay much attention to political news. What did they promise that the non-informed voter would notice in they're day-to-day life?
They promised that their oligarchs would be nicer to us. Which, to be fair, is probably true.
You'd think that would've been enough....
ok
It wouldn't have been a landslide, but it certainly assured the worst case scenario, MAGA sweeping all 3.
Who knows how it would have gone down otherwise, maybe the Democrats regained the house, maybe held onto the Senate. Maybe Trump would have lost, but Republicunts held onto Congress.
Who knows, but any of those would have been 10000x better than letting Drump get a hold of all 3.
Now everyone is screwed in some way.
What do you mean don't blame the brown people for White America's problems/identity crisis?
Fuckin what?
If you think white people have problems because of brown people, you're a stupid fuck. White people collect all the money that makes white people poor.
"It's pretty cool that MAGA Elon has so much money and my life sucks."
Agreed 💯