Harris Tried to Win Over Republicans. Democratic Support Collapsed Instead.

We kept trying to warn you.

And every time - every last fucking time - anyone told you that moving to the right was going to cause people to stay home, you lot shot the messenger. Every time someone screamed the writing on the wall out loud, centrists who were so happy that the party was finally embracing genocide and Cheney were like "Russian! Tankie! Trumpist!"

I voted for Harris. You'll blame me anyway. Democrats will always shoot the messenger and double down on their simping for fascists.

I said basically the same the article says a couple of days ago and was pelted with a gazillion negative votes. Centrists are averse to learning from mistakes, otherwise they wouldn't be centrists.
The liberal tries to become an arbitrator, but he is incapable of solving the problems.
- "I do not think that liberals understand the difference between influence and power, and the liberals get confused seeking influence rather than power. The conservatives on the right wing, or the fascists, understand power, though, and they move to consolidate power while the liberal pushes for influence."
  
  Thanks for sharing that link. It unfortunately still shows to be true even today. :(
Every time someone screamed the writing on the wall out loud, centrists who were so happy that the party was finally embracing genocide and Cheney were like “Russian! Tankie! Trumpist!”

Edit: the downvotes prove my point hah
- Of course, they also said that you would be gone as soon as the election was over, since they couldn't accept that anyone who deviated from their pro-genocide orthodoxy could be an actual person and not a Russian bot.
  
  There will be no apologies from any of them for their disgusting near-constant libel that only stopped once there was a rule against calling people Russian bots. They just switched to calling anyone who saw what was going to happen a Trump supporter instead.
  
  They're too busy trying to figure out how to justify how this loss means they need to move to the right.
  
  I'm not nearly as much of a downvote magnet as either of you, and I still have some dude following me around claiming I'm a Stein shill despite every mention of her in my history being to shit on her. They've just got the one move.
  
  DARVO is a move both parties make to deflect blame.
- Yep. Sorry you got shit on for being right. I don't think I've ever downvoted you.
  
  I'm used to it by now. You should have seen me on Twitter during the 2016/2020 campaigns. It was rough!
  
  It's nice people like us can be mocked and not shift right.
  
  Unlike those people who claim "I had to vote trump because the left left me, I didn't leave them."
  
  Or Harris.
Hear fucking hear 👏🏻 💯

Yes, my friend was one of them. I was shocked when 2 weeks before election he told me he was planning on not voting.

I asked why and he cited holding the same position Isreal as Biden, and courting republicans like Cheney, saying that was not a good look for the party at all.

I told him it’s not ideal, but we need to vote to keep Trump out…. Sometimes we just have to be pragmatic.

He responded saying it’s the Dem establishment that keeps allowing a boogey man like Trump to rise so they can shove center right corporatists down our throats. He said he was abstaining from voting to send a message to the DNC, and followed it up with, “we survived a first Trump term, I’m sure we can survive a second.”

we survived a first Trump term

As long as you weren't one of the million Americans who died of COVID thanks to his misadministration.

Or the Capitol police who died as a result from his attempted insurrection.
- I mean, he’s an ex-pat who was living in Hong Kong, S Korea, and Vietnam for most of Trumps first term… so I’m sure he didn’t feel it as hard as most of us who were here for it.
  
  "Thousands of my countrymen will perish, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make."
  
  It's a mistake reasoning as if you're taking of one guy. Maybe one third of your population voted, and most of those voted for Trump, it means that most of you guys are pretty ok with dying during the next COVID or whatever
He responded saying it’s the Dem establishment that keeps allowing a boogey man like Trump to rise so they can shove center right corporatists down our throats. He said he was abstaining from voting to send a message to the DNC, and followed it up with, “we survived a first Trump term, I’m sure we can survive a second.”

I remember when I was 14.
I asked why and he cited holding the same position Isreal as Biden, and courting republicans like Cheney, saying that was not a good look for the party at all.

I told him it’s not ideal

And this is what you don't get. There's a huge fucking gap between "not ideal" and "supporting genocide to the point that Dick Cheney likes you." And you didn't acknowledge it. You just belittled it with "not ideal." Because you couldn't admit that what Democrats were doing was monstrous and unconscionable.

Anyone who pulls this "you didn't get 100% of everything you want, but..." shit? They got 100% of everything they wanted. Especially the genocide support. And especially Cheney.
- So the thought is that Trump will stop the genocide.
  
  The thought is that running to the right failed. The thought is that Harris should have listened to criticism.
  
  We tried to warn you what would happen, and every last time, we got this insipid unthinking "you say something me not want hear! Me accuse you of being trumper! Me very smart!" shit. You have learned absolutely nothing from 2016 and 2024.
  
  In 2028, if there is an election, let's hope some of you have learned that treating your base with contempt while simping for Republicans doesn't work.
  
  They won't. They'll be open fascists in hope that motivates people on trump's 3rd term.
  
  Dems have always hated progressives more than the right. And you're saying "you" a bunch, and I guess you mean neoliberal Democrats or some other people who aren't me... but anyway.
  
  I'm asking about the strategy of, on election day: "One side is/is moving towards the right, and I don't like that. To combat that, I'll allow the most extreme right people into power, with a solid chance of destroying whatever is left of USA's democracy, while stripping it for parts."
  
  In a binary system, how does choosing the worse side help you? Did you not learn from Trumps last victory, that sitting on the sideline while fascists take away more and more rights while cementing their power and destroying institutions, doesn't work?
  
  You just got a great indicator of where the "Let's do anything we want and as long as we're second worst, everyone who isn't a monster has to vote for us!" mindset leads.
  
  But blaming the voters is easier than introspection and adaptation. So lecture away and learn nothing.
  
  I was simply asking the thought process on voting day while agreeing with the majority of your complaints. But you aren't interested in discussing anything, you just want to throw a fit and feel smug. Carry on then, I'm sure that's working out for you.
Certainly hope we can
- Yeah, I am definitely in the camp that Trump part 2 will be worse…. but we don’t know for sure yet
  
  Keep in mind Trump is pushing 80 and has a steady diet of McDonalds and Diet Coke. Here’s to hoping nature takes its course.
  
  Do you think Vance is going to be better?
  
  Better isn’t the word I would use. I don’t think Vance could be the cult leader Trump is. I think when Trump dies it will at least take some time to build up another cult leader.
  
  I honestly don't know. He's not as viscerally mean as Trump, but he's also a lot smarter. I think some part of him is a fancy boy who wants to be liked and to win by being clever and insightful rather than just brutal. He used to write about his nice life in San Francisco doing community gardening. If he could get the upper-crust to like him (not just use him) that seems like something he'd enjoy.
  
  But then again, he sold out to the guy he thought was Hitler, so he might just be completely without shame or conscience.
Keeps allowing Trump to rise? What does he expect the Dems to do?
- I don't agree with him, but I think he's expecting them to support liberal progressive policies. Seems to be taking the stance of "if we can't improve things it's better to watch it all burn rather than slowly rot".
  
  Tell him that not voting to convince them to run liberal progressive policies won't work. You can't play Mexican standoff because the Dems have an out: the center voters.
  
  The article says otherwise.
  
  So no one is ever allowed to think otherwise. Gotcha.
  
  *The better answer is that she needed to win over center. That is different than Republicans.
  
  What exactly do you think should have been done differently for Harris to activate this "just win with centrists" option? Because it very much seems like that was just tried and failed miserably.
  
  Was just in a very long thread with him, but he seems to think economic issues are exclusively centrist.
  
  Milquetoast liberal blames everyone but themselves, news at 11. Shame they're named after a good root beer.
  
  Not exclusively no lol, but it's the center economic policy that will win. UBI for example is a left economic policy and i sincerely doubt UBI will win an election. It will be seen as too much.
  
  I'm not OP so I don't actually know him so I can't tell him anything, although I do know one person like that. As for your point I'm not sure that actually follows since those center voters didn't show up to save Harris this time. If the DNC keeps losing elections at some point, assuming we're all still here and we even still have elections, they will have to try something different. It's a very risky play but I also can't say it won't work.
  
  Harris relied on the left showing up for their rights and for democracy. That was a ton of her campaign. And the left didn't show up. If they don't show up for that, they won't show up for anything. They will try something different and that's going all in on the center voter, who actually show up.
  
  I replied to your other comment where you said basically the same thing, but the short version is there clearly isn't enough center voters for that to be a winning strategy. If they try that next election (If there even is a next election) it's going to be an even more lopsided victory for the Republicans.
  
  See my other response. It's the other way around, there isn't enough left (or rather, if they can't show up for their own human fucking rights and mfing democracy, they will never never never show up for literally anything). The center is the big juicy middle that exists, that Trump appealed to, who actually show up, whose votes are worth double (because it's a vote for you and a vote taken away from the other party), and where elections are won.
  
  There's left wing economic policies as well. Running on anti-monoploy and increased taxes on the rich, would be an excellent way to go further left and is exactly I think what a lot of people were looking for this election. Ignoring the economy is never a winning strategy unless the economy is already doing really well which it very much isn't.
  
  Yes, but the left never shows up. If they can't show up for their own human rights, they will never never never show up. The Dems will never, ever put themselves into a situation where they rely on the left voters ever again, because they never show up. Harris said she'd tax the rich, and the left didn't show up.
  
  Ignoring the economy is never a winning strategy
  
  I have no idea how you are missing what I'm saying. The economy is center policy. Yes yes yes. The Dems will go hard on the economy for the center voter. They will follow Bill Clinton's "it's the economy, stupid". That's how Bill Clinton won, by going to center. That's what the Dems will do in the future, focus on the economy to win the center voter. Again, that is center policy, not left.
  
  You’re right. I don’t buy this narrative that the dems lost because they were left enough. The polls show voters were motivated by inflation and thought Biden’s progressive policies were to blame.
  
  They tried that this time. They basically told the left to fuck off and die. Moving to the right has very publicly failed.
  
  They literally told the left to come out for abortion rights and to save democracy. If the left doesn't come out for that then 1) they will literally never show up, or 2) they don't exist. Take your pick. Either the dems will never rely on the left showing up ever again. Kiss any left policy goodbye. They will go hard to the center. Clinton was right "it's the economy stupid".
  
  They had you at Dick Cheney.
  
  Yup there it is lol! Strawman central.
- They could have appointed an AG that wasn't useless on purpose, for starters.
- Well Biden for example could've done a much better job actually ~~persecuting~~ prosecuting him for his crimes. He can do that as the head of the Executive branch.
  
  Prosecute is probably the word you're looking for, but I wouldn't mind a bit of persecution being mixed in. Better than just letting him walk.
  
  Lmao good catch.
Funny thing is your friends opinions are popular on lemmy.ml which makes it seem like foreign actors are pushing these talking points. They definitely worked in Trumps favor.
- Now the blue MAGA is talking about the election being stolen...
  
  Seriosuly how did you expect to win against Trump by copying Trump? People always chose the original authoritarian nazi asshole over the knock-off copy.
  
  You know what wouldnt have worked in Trumps favor? Stopping the genocide in Gaza. That would have led to a landslide victory for the Dems.
  
  That would have led to a landslide victory for the Dems.
  
  Honestly, probably not really. It'd have likely led to a closer election by winning them Michigan, but the Democrats had a more fundamental problem than very unpopular foreign policy.
  
  Now the blue MAGA is talking about the election being stolen...
  
  What is this supposed to mean? Who is the blue maga?
  
  Who is suggesting copying Trump?
  
  The polls show voters were motivated by inflation. As much as I’d like the people of Palestine to not be safe and thrive, I literally don’t know anyone irl that considered that when voting. But the way it is pushed on lemmy you’d think it is Iran voting for Americas next president.

Sorry dude, the problem is well beyond "leftists" and sooner or later you'll need to confront that.

The average voter mindset is "which president will get me cheaper food?"

My parents get fed propaganda from Wechat (yes that Chinese app) saying democrats are letting too much illegal immigrants in, taking up too much resources.

We are legal immigrants, but shes doesn't see "illegal immigrant" is a dogwhistle about all immigrants that they dont like like black or brown people, or anyone they deem inferior.

Doesnt help the fact that Eric Adams and NYC democrats are building homeless shelters near Chinese American population.

My parents told me some of our relatives in NYC voted Trump, Asian Americans voting trump.

They say some Asian American co-workers at their workplace are supporting Trump.

My parent say "Its fine, we survived one term under trump"

Everyone who's a US Citizen in our household voted Kamala Harris. We tried. Our state PA still went red.

My US Citizen mom once said, "maybe we shouldn't vote for democrats, look at what they did in NYC (refering to homeless shelters)", and I reminded her about the Chinese Exclusion Act. So she vote Harris because I told her to. Like she didnt have a mind of her own. If her children turned out to be conservatives, she'd vote trump. Some people just dont care about politics. Similarly, some people have apolitical children but political parents, those children then vote for who their parents vote for.

We need to fix this voter apathy. Democracy is just broken.

(oh wow didnt mean to type a paragraph, sorry for the wall of text, election results still enraging me...)

Don't be sorry, everything you said is correct.
Blue state examples are often particularly confusing for the politically uninvolved, as Eric Adams is pretty close to a Republican. Once a state gets blue enough, anyone with ambition will just say they're Democrats and then do center-right stuff. Often the state parties are not ideological enough to deny the brand when it's just easier to make a bigger and bigger tent of insiders.
Honestly unfortunately mostly unrealistic: a systemic chage towards deliberative democracy (not just USAs broken electoral democracy) would be the best according to most political science. It's (way to) slowly happening in some European states (so the right shift may reverse that trend again). This indirection vie simple voting tends to lean towards populism and manipulation. Which got unfortunately incredibly obvious in the presidential election...

I’m not one of them, I voted a month or so in advance by mail.

But I wonder if some people are tired of the lack of change with Democrats in charge and believe that things need to get worse before they can get better.

As "hardcore-left" as I am, I just cannot fathom, being so dumb to not vote "to show the dems". The policies of bad Republican presidents hurt us till today. Think about Reagan vastly accelerating the gap between rich and poor, or Nixon with his failed war drugs.
- Agree. The "lesson-teaching" mindset has got to end.
They do, and they are fucking stupid for it.

Pretty much, although it's probably an exaggeration to call them Democrats. In reality most of them are likely unaffiliated with any party. But it was literally Harris's job to convince them to come out and vote for her and she failed at it. When a candidate loses an election, barring election interference, it's their fault. Harris fucked us all by running as a diet Republican. Odds are anyone in here reading this did everything we could to hand her the win, but she pissed it all away by trying to steal votes from the Republicans instead of convincing people that they needed to get off their asses and come vote for her.

Dude, she had like 100 days to put together a campaign. She had to make a gamble and trust that the 2020 Dem voters were already in her corner so she could go after some big fish with the little time she had.
- Dude, lets be real. The only reason the DNC pushed Biden out of the way was because polling numbers said the incumbent advantage (and his policies) weren't going to be enough to win it for him. So Kamala comes out of the gate with a boost (because she's not Joe) and promptly proclaims she can't name a single policy decision she would have made differently than Biden. That's not winning undecided voters from either side.
  
  and promptly proclaims she can't name a single policy decision she would have made differently than Biden.
  
  Literally not true. Were you just not paying attention?
  
  Shortly after becoming candidate, she was asked in an interview if she could think of anything she would have done different than Biden. She replied:
  
  “There is not a thing that comes to mind... and I’ve been a part of most of the decisions that have had impact, the work that we have done,”
  
  I voted for Harris but I think that was a monumental fuckup.
  
  True, and she never said anything else after that...
  
  Ok.. But that's not what we are talking about is it? You said the statement 'and promptly proclaims she can't name a single policy decision she would have made differently than Biden.' was "Literally not true". But it literally is.
  
  I don't have the time nor the want to unpack the rest of this clusterfuck campaign.
  
  Literally not true. Were you just not paying attention?
  
  Now you're flat out lying and being insulting about it. Blocked.
- She got handed a losing Biden campaign that was on fire, and thought the smart move was to double down on his policies that were already losing him the election, and then to throw in some Republican talking points. It was very obviously a losing strategy no matter how little time she had. The Democrats have been relying on "not Republicans" to carry them to victory for so long they seem to have forgotten why people vote for them over the Republicans.
  
  Everything is "very obvious ” with 20/20 hindsight.
  
  Everything is "hindsight" if you scream that the people saying it are Russian bots so you can ignore it until it's too late.
- left leaning republicans arent "big fish". They are bottom of the barrel dregs, and going after them has been tried repeatedly and it never works. And she knew she was losing the left the whole time she pivoted to the right. She can read the polls same as we can.

For many, actively supporting Israeli genocide is something they simply can't support.

If there's anything that this election has proven, it's that there are A LOT of one issue voters in this country, across the board. They'll ignore everything else for the one issue they care about above all else. And when you only have two viable parties, that forced a black and white decision.

The fundamental solution is eradicating First Past the Post and getting ranked choice voting so we have a multitude of parties that are all more nuanced instead.

But that won't happen unless we abandon both of the major parties we have now, and they can't let that happen because that means they lose power.

What is Trump’s stated opinion on Israel and its war in Gaza? What is Trump’s stated opinion -and first term actions- on Muslims? Seriously, the Biden & Harris = “genocide” horseshit was 100% designed to disenfranchise Democrats. Congress votes on foreign aid. Congress is largely Republican. Protesters NEVER went after Republicans.
- Oh 100%. But if there's anything this election proved, it's that the average American is fucking stupid, gullible as shit, and unable to determine propaganda from reality.
  
  Yeah, and the problem is people just kind of stop at "they're dumb" like that's just the end of it. "They're dumb and our opponents are unscrupulous so we'll never win until dumbness is eradicated". It's an influence campaign. Figure out a way to make the dumb people want to vote for you! The dumb people exist, some of them vote, and others could probably be encouraged to vote who don't.
  
  No ad agency would stay in business by saying "sorry, we didn't get you any extra sales, but it's not our fault because the consumers are dumb, and also you should hire us to do it all over again next time because our failure was the absolute best that could have been done under the circumstances".
- horseshit
So now they get genocide and child rape. NICE

This election was lost in every measurable way. She did not lose because of leftists who didn't vote on principal. She lost because the working class overwhelmingly chose not to vote for her. Many of them voted for Trump instead. Many first-time voters voted for Trump. She thoroughly lost to him in every possible way.

Harris relied on the left showing up for their rights and for democracy. But they will literally never show up. This is why the Dems will never, ever rely on the left showing up ever again. Dems will go hard center next election.

I don't think there's enough center left for them to go any harder center without going further left. They were already running on a bunch of right wing Republican policies. They've only got three options. Go harder right and actually become diet Republicans (all the oligarchy, but only half the fascism!). Stay exactly where they are. Or go left and return to being mildly progressive. They've shown that where they are currently is a losing proposition, so realistically their option is to try to appeal to the middle of the Republican base, or walk back some of their right shift of the last few decades. I don't think they're going to be able to successfully out Republican the Republicans so they've really only got one viable play.
- I don't know how else to say it: Harris relied on the left with abortion rights and saving democracy, and the left didn't show up. The center cares about inflation and housing, which Harris did not address enough. They will go to that center, Bill Clinton's "It's the economy, stupid". There will be no real progress, just economy for the center.
  
  Left isn't just social policies, it's economic policies as well. She should have been talking about inflation and housing this election in addition to things like abortion. Instead she decided to focus on border control and foreign policy, two Republican talking points, and even worse she decided to go right on both of them.
  
  We live in different worlds because I think her focus was on abortion and saving democracy. Border is both center and right imo, you'd be amazed.
  
  Foreign policy is an example of how no one cares about Gaza or Ukraine (or NATO), which are what the left cares about. The left didn't show up. Yes the Gaza situation is fucked, but the difference between Harris and Trump are stark and vast.
  
  but the difference between Harris and Trump are stark and vast.
  
  And you think making that difference narrower would have improved Harris' chances?
  
  That was about Gaza, holy bad faith. Hey I recognize you.
  
  As though there exists any policy you won't advocate moving right on.
  
  Ah was it you that insists on calling me anyone who doesn't agree with you an enlightened centrist? Still having fun with your strawman I see lol.
  
  I would never call centrists enlightened.
Well let's hope so so they can collapse and a real leftist (or even just sane) party can rise from the ashes.
- If a "real leftist" party arises from the ashes, guess what will happen? They will lose in the election. That's the whole point of what I'm saying: left policies do not win elections. We literally just saw this. Harris said to the left "come out for your body rights. come out for your democracy." If the left can't come out for that they 1) will literally never ever come out, or 2) they don't exist.
  
  What wins elections is "it's the economy stupid".

I seriously doubt left wingers were the difference in this election. I doubt there are significant enough numbers of far left people in Georgia, North Carolina, Michigan, and Wisconsin for it to have made any real difference.

I seriously doubt left wingers were the difference in this election

You'd be seriously wrong then. Even as of 2021 progressives were 8% of all voters. It will be even higher now.

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/11/09/progressive-left/

Thats 15-20% of the democratic party. The dems cant win any election without them, and have no hope of replacing them with republicans or independents-- regardless of how much funding AIPAC tries to bribe you with.
- That article says that progressives almost unanimously voted for Biden in 2020. I guess you're saying Biden won in 2020 because progressives showed up and voted for him, and I suppose that means Harris lost because progressives didn't show up and vote for her in 2024? So, the question then is: why? Why did progressives show up for Biden but not for Harris?
  
  Seriously? My friend, we've been shouting for two months why peogressives weren't going to show up this election. This post isnfull of the reasons.
  
  You'll need someone else to do the deep dive but:
  
  genocidal support by harris/biden.
  
  hard shift to the right on policy. Fucking cheney's.....
  
  no working class policy positions that would actually be impactful. (Keeping khan, commiting to not breaking strikes, maybe some reforms of pto/sick leave/etc.)
  
  Im not looking for any response to this. Its purely informational.
  
  No, I get all that, I'm just asking why progressives did vote for Biden but didn't vote for Harris. Because all of this stuff applies just as much to Biden as it does to Harris, so why sit out the 2024 election but not the 2020 election? Was it the pandemic?
  
  Pandemic was def part of it. People were actively dying as a result of trumps behavior.
  
  Biden also tacked left a bit due to the fact warren/bernie had most of the votes in their camp during the primary.
  
  It was a big part of his initial 'single term' promise. Which was due to pressure from the left wing that fine if we vote for you you're a single term pres.
  
  He could have managed a 2nd term if he didnt genocide, didnt break the rail strikes, and maintained more mental agility than a potato. Unfortunately he was adamant on both those things. Then harris walked in and was all 'everything we did was beautiful! Vote harris!'
  
  There was a collective sigh by people like me and most just checked out again and continued our local collective action support for each other. (This is why not having a primary is a huge downside for dems, removes the ability for us to build enthusiasm)
  
  Some of us, the masochists, decided to try and raise the warning flags for Harris and friends that she was about to get fucked.
  
  If the dnc eventually learns and gets a firebrand left wing to run that can strike the whistle just right not to scare most of the centrists you'll see those voters very quickly return. But thats predicted on dnc learning, which is unlikely alot of us right now who can are putting in the time to get rcv or its like passed so we can build a viable 3rd party.
  
  I see, that's interesting. I really didn't think progressives were a big part of either election outcome. And I should clarify, I am a leftist. I've been a member of a couple different socialist organizations, both DSA and the Socialist Party USA. I voted for Bernie in the 2016 and 2020 primaries. I just didn't think there were enough of us in critical swing states to be the determining factor in any election. I suppose maybe I was wrong.
  
  I get that you didn't want to vote for Harris because she's a milquetoast liberal technocrat, capitalist imperialist who supports genocide, but so was Biden. That's Democrats, that's who they are. I'm sorry, but if you really thought Biden was going to move meaningfully left or commit to just being a one term president, you were kidding yourself. I mean, why wouldn't the Democrats think progressives were going to show up and vote for them in 2024, when the progressives showed up for them in 2020? I guess they know better now, but if you think the Democrats are going to learn from this election and decide to try to appeal more to progressives, again, you're kidding yourself. In fact, the opposite is likely to happen, the Democrats will probably move further to the right. The Democratic party is not a socialist or even a social democratic party, and they never will be. Not in my lifetime, anyway.
  
  laugh i never thought biden (or the dnc) was anyone but who he was. I was entirely unsurprised by his administration and this election cycle.
  
  I dont particularly care if they move further right. Thats their decision. Just means they're even less likely to get votes from people like myself. Its not really a threat. (Though thats unlikely in my state, nationally shrug)
  
  I suspect by 2028 my state will be close or have rcv and third party work can begin. Shrug

They all campaigned for Harris and mostly held their criticism to themselves. Harris is the one who decided to go campaign with Liz Cheney and Mark Cuban.

Looks like you agree with the announcement 🤦

running a far right war and risking losing the election and ending the republic all so you can take some far right wing bribes is a lot more petty.