why the hell cant men stay out of women-only spaces?
im so sick of seeing reports regarding men posting in women-only communities and i cant help but get annoyed with these guys.
the rules are clearly presented. either youre not paying attention or youre just an asshole who purposefully throws their opinion in a place explicitly not wanting it.
what the fuck is wrong with you guys?
"somegroup"-only communities really feels like discrimination to me
Look, I'm not about to post comments myself in those places, but happening upon one recently after a previous post like this, I noticed how poorly the rule was displayed.
Each post should have a stickied mod comment at the top stating commenting is for women only. Otherwise it's easy not to notice what community the post is in that you're responding to, especially on mobile.
You can expect people to know the rules of any community before posting, or take the time to look, or whatever, but the only person you're hurting is yourself for having those expectations.
If your community is public, the onus is on you (or rather, the mods of the community) to make it as clear as possible what the rules are, if they exclude people or go beyond "be civil."
Personally, I block pretty much all exclusionary communities for a few reasons:
This is not to say that I don't believe that women deserve a space where they have control and agency, especially with the immense amounts of misogyny on the Internet and meatspace. Nor do they need to consider my feelings nor any other man's when deciding their rules and whether to be inclusive or exclusive.
I do, however, think that the hard-line exclusionary practices diminish the perspective, both for the participants and for men who could definitely use the insights into the bullshit that women have to continue to deal with. Lots of missed opportunity to build understanding and strengthen allyship. It also makes it easier for toxic exclusionary ideologies, like TERFs to take root (every group excluded makes it easier to excuse excluding another) while also preventing people who have not discovered their feminine gender identities from participating in conversation with other women in ways that could help them to uncover important things about themselves.
Anyway, enjoy and I hope that you find your space helpful to you, regardless of what myself or any other man feels about it. If the community does become inclusive, I'd definitely like to to know so that I can unblock it.
Why the hell SOME women can't stop generalizing men's behaviour?
What the fuck is wrong with you, guys?
irrelevant. its none of your business what they converse amongst themselves
If the community is private you might have a point, but there are very public women's only communities on this platform who's conversations show up in the aggregate feeds--that's not just "conversing amongst themselves."
I worry about what incels write about women in incel forums. It can lead to horrible behavior outside those forums.
This I disagree with, as it’s an open community.
It’s read only to men.
But don’t post, yes. Period. That part is pretty simple.
The recent tea app debacle shows you are quite wrong about that.
Honestly the varied mobile platforms don't always present the channel/groups rules in advance. Especially if one is just browsing trending topics. There can potentially be no way for some users to be informed enough before they see a topic they want to interact with.
Best solution I found for similar issue is polite advisement of the rules via dm or other preferred method and helping them learn and have better internet etiquette.
Calling folks out publicly can get alot of negative associations with it as well which might end with you group on the wrong end of a troll.
valid points!
Yup, this is it for me. I blocked womenstuff, mostly so that they wouldn't have to deal with me stumbling in from sorting all by new.
It’s very often right in the title, AND the description, yet filled with men's comments.
Nope. To be clear, the rules are not in the titles of most posts or the community name.
the rules are clearly presented
I use Voyager. Community rules are hidden unless you specifically go to that community page, open the menu, and select "sidebar". It's incredibly easy to miss.
If a community only wants some people posting then a quick fix is to not allow just anyone to post to it.
I think generally if somebody does this genuinely they are politely told the rules but then some feel hard done by and start whining about it.
That's a bit of an overreaction.
TIL there is women only spaces on the internet. How do you even enforce it?
With difficulty, as demonstrated here.
most of these guys are self identifying...
You hope that men will recognize that this is a space not meant for them (which is often explicitly stated in the post body) and respectfully not comment. And those men that do comment but are respectful get politely asked not to comment again. And those men that comment and are rude or disrespectful get banned.
And some men do fly under the radar but a surprising number feel the need to start their comment with "As a man...".
Please present yourself to JK Rowling's TERF Inspection Booth /s
Ask the UK government
"Why the hell can't blacks stay out of white only spaces"
Successful woman-focused spaces incorporate men, because men are fathers of daughters; brothers of sisters; sons of mothers; and partners, friends, coworkers, mentors, and teammates of women. Men are relevant and important to addressing women's issues.
This is a false equivalency, my dude. There are definitely good reasons for people who generally face systemic discrimination (ie. Women, black people) to have separate communities from those they face discrimination from (men, white people). It’s not like they are trying to divorce themselves from society at large.
Why not have a community of people that are against this discrimination, rather than just having the targets of it? I feel like it doesn't really help..
And anyways, pleading your cause publicly will always be better imo. Better to avoid confirmation bias and other bs
"The rules are clearly presented"
WRONG! Posts show up in aggregate lists. You know, like the main page of lemmy instances. Where individual community rules do not appear at all if someone clicks on the post directly. I bet a significant amount of the time, people do not even realize which community they're replying to posts in.
Don't like it? Maybe Lemmy needs a way to either remove communities from standard aggregate lists, or to force a popup of community rules when a post is navigated to for a first time viewer that hasn't even seen the community page. Then I'd totally understand being pissed off at first time rule violators.
There's no way to "force" anything, different clients are going to behave however they like. Maybe if you need that level of control the Fediverse isn't the right platform to begin with.
Hey, it's not my desire to have a wholly separate space for a subsection of the community... It's not my fault OP doesn't understand the consequences of public message boards. I'm just suggesting ideas that might get closer to their desired mixed reality.
Obviously if they want to do it correctly, it'd have to be something like a separate women-only instance with approved joins. Then they'd be able to facilitate a space where undesirables cannot post.
Why aren't people checking what community they're about to participate in? That feels like it ought to be standard behaviour
Knowing which community isn't the same as being familiar with that community's rules. Most are going to assume if they see it they can respond in some sort of "normal" fashion. Banning an entire subsection that can still see the community by rule only is asking to have a difficult to enforce rule. Complaining that a difficult to enforce rule is difficult is ... a major lack of self-awareness.
Because it's unnecessary in almost all cases. So far there is only one community which forbids people to comment based on who they are, but otherwise the rules boil down to standard acceptable behavior according to common sense. It's also a nuisance for users: I am quite sure nobody wants to click several times and be derailed to check rules (on mobile) for every comment they want to write in every post they see on a feed. If this would be expected as standard behavior, I would guess even less interactions will happen.
It feels that way to you. Not everyone shares your opinion
Lmao the thread shows all the exact problems laid bare.
You got the denial guy, you got the false equivalency guy, you got the not all men guy, just incredible they're all here.
Blahaj certified comment
Obviously it's blahaj again
Blahaj: discriminating minorities is forbidden, discriminating majorities is allowed
right! its like they came out of the woodwork to prove my point!
Hold on, lemme willfully misinterpret your intent and reframe it so it's about meeee. I'm the good one let me innnnn
Something about a women only space triggers people. Just look at the people replying here. They can't seem to help themselves.
Something about a "group" only space will trigger me regardless.
People in general want to be included and some even more so when they’re told they’re not allowed in.
It’s easy when it’s a physical space, ropes and security keep the riff raff out. With online spaces, it requires active moderation, mods who are willing to enforce the rules and ban those that violate them.
the rules are clearly presented. either youre not paying attention or youre just an asshole who purposefully throws their opinion in a place explicitly not wanting it.
what the fuck is wrong with you guys?
The same as with those women wanting to get in this men space? I wonder...
More seriously, you ask a legit question (as it would be legit if it was a man asking why some women so badly want to join in men-only spaces), a question that could trigger an interesting discussion, but why does it have to be so fucking angry? (See how poorly it passes?)
Based on the comments here and in the previous similar post I have seen, the vast, vast majority of people (presumably men) highlight how this is a problem of visibility of posts in public feeds.
It's a tradeoff between having the community public for discoverability and accepting that many people will not check the rules and violate them, some inadvertently.
The alternative is to make the community private, and accept that women will need to discover a women-relates community by searching for "women", which doesn't seem incredibly unlikely.
From the sentiments I read, most people wouldn't care at all if the community was private and wouldn't have a desire to "invade" it. I definitely feel part of this group.
Considering that it's in the interest of the community (apparently) to have only women, I think it's fair to expect the (minimal) effort from future members to look for it (plus advertising it in posts etc.) on them instead of expecting the vast majority of the users (the fediverse is mostly males) to add friction and having to check the rules of every single community of every post they open (now it might be a community, more might come). Yes, community rules are important, but being realistic, if you don't behave like an asshole you don't need to worry about them in 99% of the times.
However, if this tradeoff is not deemed acceptable, I think there is no point complaining about people "invading" women spaces because it's guaranteed that many people will comment without reading the rules, as I am sure the almost totality of users does all the time. Even without counting the ones who intentionally violate the rule, there is always going to be an organic amount of people who will do so inadvertently.
At this point I think the tradeoff is so clear, that discussing the topic in such a confrontational way looks more like rage-bait than anything aimed at solving the problem.
It's not immediately obvious when it appears in your feed, I also don't think people expect to be excluded due to protected characteristics. I know I wouldn't have expected a community to discriminate.
These comments…
what the fuck is wrong with you guys?
+1
Community rules are community rules, and you can either follow them or get banned from the community. How is ‘women only’ any different?
As for the excuse of visibility: the rule is very often in the title, and the initial post, yet not followed.
As for the excuse of how they can tell: well if they can’t, okay, you evaded detection. But posts very often declare “I’m a guy and this is my take…”
I honestly don’t get it, especially on an internet “refuge” like Lemmy where users should be sensitive to persecution and the importance of safe, moderated discussion spaces.
safe, moderated discussion spaces
They're the most fake spaces, filled with copium and confirmation bias
Is this about the public community, Women's stuff, federated on the public fediverse who's posts get aggregated to the public all feed and which is accessed by a diverse set of software solutions that may or may not force the community rules to be visible before viewing post content?
I try not to engage cause I know about the community, but golly, I can't imagine how a man might stumble upon that and interact.
I saw a post, added a relevant wiki link, and then my comment was deleted, and that's fair enough as I didn't read the rules beforehand.
To reduce the constant barrage of mansplaining :-) I suggest adding a sticky top level comment (or something better), or some sort of filter before a comment is added if possible.
Or set the public instance to public discussion about women's stuff and set up a private instance with a women's only application process that is advertised on the public instance.
There's value in women's only spaces, and there's value in spaces for fathers, husbands, brothers, boyfriends, and sons to ask about women's stuff. By arranging the communities as described they can keep discoverability, exclusivity, AND can stop getting forbidden comments from the public on their public forum.
Lemmy is a public space. Everyone can participate.
Imagine if lemmy was a physical piece of public land. Could you create a community on it that can only be accessed by women? Something like this village?
There are literally women only bars and women only buses. And women only bathrooms, of course.
yeah fair. they aren't community-owned spaces like infrastructure but close enough
now the question is whether the fediverse is closer to public infrastructure or a bar. probably the bar, i'd say.
Make it a private group. If it shows up in the general list, it's a free and public spot.
Would be nice if Lemmy and Piefed had a way to limit posting and commenting to subscribers. That should at least stop accidental comments while keeping visibility.
Not for me, because I'm aubscribed because I'm curious and might want to share interesting threads with my wife.
Anyways, brb making a feature request.
Edit: !womensstuff@piefed.blahaj.zone moved to Piefed, so the feature request should be made there. And I just lost a half typed request to Android's bullshit memory management and now I don't have any energy left. Someone else can take over.
i like that idea!
alternatively, a simple rule notification during commenting would suffice.. a popup or inline banner with verbiage specific to the community
Are women allowed to answer this question? It's directed at men.
Feel free, we're not on a discriminatory community
Do you have examples of women only communities? Because I have probably inadvertently done so. Admittedly, I probably also haven’t read the rules as my mobile client makes that stuff kind of hidden.
I love the posts that come out witchesvspatriachy for example. That’s definitely female dominated, but I didn’t read the rules because, well, they didn’t show up in the all feed, so I don’t know if I shouldn’t post.
I also think it’s good to get some outside opinion, occasionally, but female spaces need to remain female dominated for good reason.
/me shrugs. Sorry if I’ve been the point of your annoyance
As a woman there's no way you are not aware of exactly why that happens and the kind of guys that would do it on purpose...
On accident? State it more clearly? Maybe throw in an explanation about why it's that way so you don't end up endlessly arguing the same stuff forever.
Damn that's some turbo manmansplaining right here xD
What's wrong with you? Are you OK hun?
you posted cringe
For the same reason why women can't stay out of male-only spaces. Women have been demonizing male-only spaces for decades. If male-only spaces are bad, female-only spaces are bad... I see no other 'equal law for all genders' reasonable outcome
They all suck because they eventually become discriminatory and redirect hate
You cannot clearly think if the only people you talk to agree with you
They're looking for a way to feel persecuted, probably.
I apologize for the shitty behavior of other men.
That being said, how do you feel about men reading those posts on women only communities, if they don't reply, comment or vote?
I browse through the federated list, and see posts from all instances I haven't blocked. Sometimes I'll comment, and one time I got feedback it was a women only instance. I blocked that one, since it wasn't for me. I never see community rules (they're in the sidebar, I know), and besides, if I have to read the rules each time before commenting, I might as well give up on lemmy.
So, probably I'm not paying attention, that's what the fuck is wrong with me.
Never been to a concert I see
Mod notice: semi-controversial but serious question has been raised about an actual issue. Keep it civil and stay classy.
If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. Or at least be tastefully funny about it.
EDIT:
Thanks for providing a great reason to leave this community.
The OP has been hostile in the comments, and in their OP, violating Rule 1, and Rule 5.
Do better.
It's not an airport. You don't need to announce your departure.
OK, I pulled out a computer for you so I could see the rules side by side with my post because my mobile client doesn't allow it.
OP came in swinging hot, maybe a little toxic, but there are valid points behind the hot words.
However, OP has shown that they are able to accept other viewpoints from valid arguments (https://lemmy.ca/post/48960508/18080134). So I would argue this is borderline.
I have to say, I have no idea what sealioning is though.
This isn't a "How do I". This is an open ended attempt (with some frustration) to try to under why members of the community do certain things.
That's my view anyway. What's yours?