Canada is so furious at the US right now
Canada is so furious at the US right now
Vox’s correspondent in Canada reports on the reaction to Trump’s tariffs.
You're viewing a single thread.
You’re goddamn right I’m furious.
And no less furious at the weak-kneed Democrats who do nothing as their own country is ripped from them by a clown. “Oh sorry; we’ll try again in 4 years” they say. Fuck your thoughts and prayers, how about do something. You won’t get a free election in 4 years, dummies.
Oh yeah, I realize you’re super busy and with your sportsball games and your reality TV marathons. Your inaction today will haunt your future.
And no this isn’t a call to action or a cry for help. We’re going to be just fine. You’re the ones who have to live there, and live with yourselves knowing you did nothing.
Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio Cortez are heading out to states to lead town halls after this most recent budget passing.
This is what Democrats should be doing: preparing for 2028 by reaching out to people now, or at the very least educating them on what's happening and what might happen in the other 46 months (or more...) of Trump's second presidency.
I expect the authoritarian posturing and nationalism will be successful inside America as the world unites against them. And that any further hopes they have of opposition will be strangled by increasing anti-democratic measures as time goes on. That’s the playbook that has been successful elsewhere and I see no basis for believing in American exceptionalism here.
Will be extremely happy to be wrong on this, but I can’t see a world where waiting until 2028 works out for Democrats.
And no less furious at the weak-kneed Democrats who do nothing as their own country is ripped from them by a clown.
Republican voters enabled another trump dictatorship, not “democrats”.
Their vote made it so that "democrats" have no power in the house, the senate, the office of the presidency, the supreme court, or the dozens of federal agencies that are now being gutted.
Blame them. Blame only them for voting the way they did, because the outcome is exactly what they voted for.
Their vote made it so that “democrats” have no power in the house, the senate, the office of the presidency, the supreme court, or the dozens of federal agencies that are now being gutted.
Actually, today Senate Republicans needed help from the Democrats to pass a bill to keep the government funded. And 10 Democrats helped them, including Minority Leader Chuck Schumer.
No, fuck this. The best analogy I've seen is that the republicans are a school shooter, and the democrats are the uvalde police department. I'm not going to forgive a group thst somehow becomes utterly ineffectual any time they're needed. This has been brewing for decades. If the democrats were just tooooooooo weak to do anything to prevent it in all that time, what fucking use are they?
That's like blaming firefighters for not being able to put out fires as fast as arsonists can set them.
Voters are the only reason why Trump is still here. Sure, you can say that democratic representatives could/should be doing more, but aren't we way past that point now? This is trump's second term... voters want him in power. As fucking stupid as that is.
It's more like blaming city council because they refuse to pass any regulations that might reduce the number of fires, because it would hurt their donors in the construction industry.
We are way past the point where democrats could have done anything, and we arrived here because all through my almost fifty year lifetime and before, people on the left have been warning them about the US's decline towards fascism, the takeover of their media and the dominance of voter suppression, and they've chosen to never take any action to stop it. I fail to see why they should escape blame now, after making the bed they are lying in.
That’s like blaming firefighters for not being able to put out fires as fast as arsonists can set them.
Sure, in the sense that the neoliberals are Marcus Licinius Crassus in this analogy.
explanation
Marcus Crassus became the richest man in Rome partly through real estate. He created the first fire department in Rome. Sometimes he paid arsonists to set fire to a house and then he would wait around the corner with his fire fighters. When the fire was underway, Crassus and his men would come running to the rescue. But before they would put out the fire, Crassus would negotiate with the owner. How much was he willing to sell the house for? If the owner found this unreasonable, Crassus would patiently wait as the fire consumed the building. As time passed, the price for the house went down. Usually, the owner would decide to get at least something for his house. At that point, the fire department would put out the fire. Then Crassus would have the lot cleared and a tenement building put up.
– Daily Life in Ancient Rome by Dupont p.54
explanation
Dude, that is FUCKED UP. Mobster racketeering in ancient times!
I see your point of view!
That’s like blaming firefighters for not being able to put out fires as fast as arsonists can set them.
No, that's a bad analogy because the firefighters are trying to put out the fires to the best of their ability. The Democrats aren't doing shit, and in some cases siding with the fascists.
It was your fellow man that did this, you really have to face that fact. People will still chose to be dumb and ignorant, and Russia really played into that. Russia has had a singular leadership for the last 30 or so years. No flip-flopping no new fresh faces a singular purpose and that is the destruction of America
of course? All these people are my fellow man. I have no idea what your point is. I don't think aliens did it.
Republican voters got them elected, Democrats are standing by doing nothing as their country is ruined.
There are no attempts to secede, there are no wide-scale protests or strikes. Their democracy falls while they sit back and fret, laughing along with Jon Stewart and smug in their knowledge they are better that Republicans. For all their much-touted "second amendment" they are idle as a tyrant solidifies power.
I do blame Republican for their actions. But I blame Democrats for their inaction. I'm furious because what I see in them I recognize in myself -- it's a challenge for me to not be complacent and fight for my own country. Because if we coast like they do, we will suffer the same fate.
But I blame Democrats for their inaction.
I don't deny that much more could have been/could be done. But look at the optics on how this would make trump even stronger:
If you had a democratically elected president who's being shut down by the minority party, which could be seen as "going against what the people voted for", and once again trying to "steal the election". It would justify a horrific ramping up of his rhetoric, and seeing how he released 1500 criminals who were on his side, there would be no stopping domestic (right-wing) terrorists from targeting "democrats".
In fairness, this timeline is so FUBAR, especially when coming off such a strong economy, highly respected presidencies from Obama and Biden, and relative peace with nearly all allies. In just a few months, Trump and Musk have been undoing hundreds of years of progress, which is unprecedented so say the least.
The States, and the world, are in such uncharted territories right now.
You do realize what you're saying, right?
You're saying it would be a tragedy of optics to try to stop a dictator from seizing power. That if democrats do nothing they can avoid being targeted in the short term, while Trump chases after others.
Yes. This specific attitude is what I'm furious about. And I'm going to work my damnedest to stop it happening here in my country.
You’re saying it would be a tragedy of optics to try to stop a dictator from seizing power.
No absolutely not! And I'm sorry if it came off that way. Trump and his Nazi regime need to be stopped 100%. What I'm saying is that he only needs "proof" in the form of a handful of elected democrat representatives fighting back in order to really escalate things. He hasn't even started!
It's up to the 300 million Americans to do something. Take action. If you're in the military, don't follow orders, or take those orders and do nothing with them.
We aren't at this point in Canada, and the swing in our polls show that common sense matters. Republican voters doubled down when the world was telling them that Trump would destroy everything they cared about. They never once unified for anything. Canada is unifying, because we know what's at stake. Plus, we've got way more allies in our corner than the Americans.
Exactly.
And what pisses me off is the calculation that you implicitly state, that by not reacting now the Democrats know they are "safe" because the ire is pointed somewhere else. It pisses me off because I recognize the same impulses in myself. I didn't think Canada was in danger when the ire was on Mexicans and Haitians and Muslims. Just like they don't see the danger now.
But when the barrel is pointed at you, you see more clearly. We are today, and the cowering Democrats are next. The longer they wait, the harder it will get -- but that's how divide and conquer works. The groups all accept the evils being done to the current group to buy their own safety, and they get picked off one by one.
And as you say -- in Canada we have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to break this cycle here. We see what's coming now, and we won't break.
that by not reacting now the Democrats know they are “safe” because the ire is pointed somewhere else.
It's not necessary about self-preservation, but an avoidance of escalation.
If Trump was a reasonable person with right-wing views, he would still be able to cooperate with democrats to better the country for the people.
But he's an unhinged, narcissistic, unreliable, compromised madman, so much of the world is in damage control at this point.
I'm not even sure how elected democrats would be able to stop him. But I can tell you how 300,000,000 Luigis could.
He's not playing by the rules, so the strategy to fight back is to also not play by the rules. Sure, this can be self-destructive to a point, but sometimes the sacrifice of a few is what's needed to stop a nazi uprising.
And as you say – in Canada we have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to break this cycle here. We see what’s coming now, and we won’t break.
We've had enough of a warning, seeing what the hell a deranged lunatic in charge can do for another country. I don't think we'd allow that to happen here, but I guess we'll see 'what the people want' in our Federal elections.
The States, and the world, are in such uncharted territories right now.
Not really. History is full of dictators seizing power and abusing it. And in every case there was only one course of action to stop it. Stop making excuses to do nothing and take to the streets.
It doesn't matter who's to blame. The question is where is your nation going, and what are you going to do about it? Are you going to let all the terrible things happen because "it's the other guys' fault"?
What solutions do you propose for the majority of the population who are struggling to get by and who can't even take time off work to protest or contact their local representatives? That's the reality Americans are facing. Those with the most to lose are in the worst position to fight back.
Any protections that people once had are being stripped away each day. I mean, calling it illegal to boycott Tesla? Calling actual protesters domestic terrorists while hailing those who stormed the capital ad heroes?
The situation looks grim for Americans.
There was lots of things they could have tried, especially when they had the whitehouse. They didn't because they were trying to believe civilised democratic norms back into existence, or something like that.
I think it's fair to say that they were trying to be democratic in their approach, and really couldn't have anticipated that the public would vote again for a twice-impeached felon with dozens of charges, and the person solely responsible for inciting a violent insurrection against the capital. But here we are! 🫠
Is there a rewind button we could use? ☹️
I dunno, it's not like the polls ever showed the unstoppable lead "felon" implies. Nor did the problem start with Trump; the angry far-right rhetoric has been slowly escalating pretty much my whole (young-ish) life.
Top democrats have shown very poor judgement, probably because they couldn't or wouldn't imagine the stuff that's happened a million times before in other places could happen to them. Normalcy bias is a bitch.
The reality is, things have been going pretty good for the world in general (minus Putin being a total cunt), especially Canada and the US. And when you consider we all came out of a pandemic in pretty good shape, in spite of trump's extremely poor handling of it, that should have given most sensible people reason to be humble.
Instead, problems were invented and spread through right-wing social media and regular media. Then false promises given by trump to "fix" those lies.
People were duped, and they voted based on the lies they were fed.
And if elected Republican officials had any concept of duty to the nation, Trump would have been stopped cold after his first impeachment. They should have stopped him cold when we all heard him boasting about sexually assaulting women, tbh.
We can blame both sides all day. The fact of the matter is that enough people voted for Trump, and gave him permission to do what he's been doing. Whatever course-correction needs to happen will be very difficult and extremely taxing on individuals who now have to literally fight for their lives or livelihoods.
Nearly 90 million voters sat home on election day. That's more than either candidate. Disenfranchisement plays a part, but it's more about the complete apathy the American voting population exhibits that's the problem. If even half those people showed up on election day (much less during primaries) the entire country would look completely different. That is a significantly bigger factor than either party shitting the bed.
That being said... Democrats, for the most part, are playing it way too safe. Their leadership is too neo-liberal and too dependent on the status quo to want to shake things up too much, because their main tentpoles (which eerily match the Republicans) revolve around stagnation and a lack of real societal progress. They bandy about social progress with racial, gender, and sexuality policy reforms, but only when it's already well past the point that it'd be possible to enact them. Where it would make them look weak if they didn't do something, and they get quick and easy points by doing the least possible to improve peoples lives.
There's a ton of reps in the Democratic party that want change, and want to see things move forward at a faster pace... but they're constantly pushed to the sidelines by the old guard that has a stranglehold on their leadership. Used as scapegoats when they want to distance themselves from more progressive elements, and fodder when they want to push another milquetoast reform that ultimately changes nothing. The problem is they're hampered by a two-party system. They can either jump ship to a third party, and end up primaried or relegated to pointlessness, or continue on as near-impotent figures that only get soundbites on twitter or facebook.
And that's only on the American "left". The more moderate elements on the right are too scared to speak up lest they feel the ire of the Trump cabal, and end up toeing the line. Even if they feel they're on the wrong side of history.
So there's plenty of blame to go around, it's no one thing or another. The biggest problem, though, being an American populace who refuses to band together and listen to each other, and work for each other instead of just themselves.
What about the democrats that did something how should they feel?
Bluntly, what have you done for me lately?
What Democrats did is a meaningless platitude.
What are all of you doing right now?
What the fuck should we do with your "we did our part"?
Simply put, You the People cannot be trusted to keep fascism at bay.
If you are ever allowed to vote in a free election again, one third of you will vote for more of this bullshit, and one third of you will refuse to vote.
Collectively, you are untrustworthy.
You the People cannot be trusted to keep fascism at bay.
Of course they can't. The founding mythology? The military fluffing? The pervasive propaganda over American exceptionalism?
It's a fascist country. It just doesn't always have a totalitarian government.
If the goal is to get people engaged, does telling them they’re worthless and untrustworthy actually help? I get the anger, but if you want people to step up, what’s the strategy beyond just calling them dummies?
Hi, fellow American here. You seem to need to understand some things, so I'm here to educate you.
We've been gently coddling the conservatives into being better for decades. Their response to this is to laugh at you and then double down on whatever horrible shit they've decided is their culture war target today. Gentle reminders that they're actively working toward the destruction of society does nothing to them. In many cases it actively galvanizes them even more toward their opinions.
So I'm fucking done coddling. Some of my friends and my family are going to die because of things they've gleefully voted for and then tried to throw in my face after. My nation is in flames because of what they've done. The entire world is falling to authoritarian fascism because of what they've done.
So fuck 'em. If you're a horrid piece of shit then I'm going to tell you that you're a horrid piece of shit. You have the option to change your ways or go fuck off and die, doesn't matter one bit to me. But I'm sick and tired of trying to meet someone halfway when their "halfway" is "well maybe we only exterminate half of the blacks and gays and we can just enslave the rest of them?"
In short: Every single conservative "republican" that still idenitifes as such in the modern day is a piece of shit scum human being, who is directly responsible for the hellhole we find ourselves in, and if they know what's good for them they better be afraid to show their face around me and mine. I'm tired of trying to "play nice" with oppressors. I now flat refuse to put up with their existence. These people have threatened the life and livelihood of my family and others close to me that I love and care about, continue to do so, and show not only a lack of empathy but a sick, gleeful, sadistic joy in the idea that my mother can no longer get her medications or that school children will kill themselves or their peers. I'm tired of subsidizing their idiocy and trying to claw progress out of their hateful, regressive policies. I'm tired of having to explain to people why all persons should have equal rights. I'm tired of feeling threatened in public areas by skinheaded fucks with assault rifles. I'm tired of worrying for my partner's safety when they leave for work.
Conservatives have, to date, done nothing whatsoever of benefit to anyone but themselves, ever, and I'm tired of having to act like they are rational actors. They are not. They are greedy, spiteful, selfish fucks, they do not have reasonable viewpoints, and I'm tired of having to act like they do. You should be too. The gentle coddling of such ridiculous viewpoints because "all opinions matter!" has directly led us to our two-party travesty and the casual ignoring of all norms or laws by Trump and Co. These people need to be told when their opinions are stupid and wrong and we've been very, very long overdue in doing that. Failure to do so leads to - drumroll - take a look around outside.
So yeah. Our Canadian friend here is right. The anger is very long overdue. Fact is, conservatives are untrustworthy and worthless and I don't actually care if telling them that helps them or not. We've tried to help them, repeatedly, and been pushed away and ridiculed for it time and time again. So it's time to speak a language that they understand.
You said you were here to “educate” me, but what you really did was vent anger and insult an entire group of people. Education means offering insight, a path forward, or at least an argument that changes minds. What you provided was raw frustration, which I understand… but let’s be clear, that’s not education.
If your goal is to express rage, you’ve done that. If your goal is to actually fight back against the forces you’re angry at, then I have to ask: what’s your strategy? Telling people they’re scum and irredeemable might feel cathartic, but what does it accomplish? Are you trying to mobilize people or just burn bridges?
History shows that lasting change happens when people organize, persuade, and build coalitions. That doesn’t mean ‘coddling’ extremists, but it does mean recognizing that not everyone who votes a certain way is beyond reason. Writing off everyone as an enemy is how you lose, and I assume you don’t want to lose.
So, if you’re here to educate, then educate: What’s your actual plan? What do you believe works? Because if your only message is ‘hate them all, there’s no hope’ then you’re not fighting fascism, you’re just surrendering to it with a different kind of rage.
For what it’s worth, I do want change, and I am angry too. But anger without strategy doesn’t fix anything. If venting is all that matters to you, then we have nothing more to discuss.
No I was absolutely being a angry dickhead and that's totally fair. Those are my true feelings though, and to my best judgment logical ones. What do you do when you are faced with a person you can't reason with? Historically speaking, the only real way to deal with it is to imprison them or kill them. I don't want us to get to that state. I just feel like we're being driven towards it. I find the world that we exist in now to be utterly absurd with these sorts of people at the wheel and I will no longer tolerate those who support them. We're bringing punching Nazis back.
I get the anger
No, I don't think you do.
Why don’t I?
Only you can answer that.
Ah, the ‘I know better but won’t say why’ routine. Classic move for someone who values posturing over discussion. If there’s a real point, say it. If not, I’m out. Take care.
I guess you'll have to find a quantum of solace in your taking of the high road.
Bask in that, and perhaps take a victory lap.
Most definitely pat yourself on the back.
Consider getting the last word in, or not.
If they took action and failed I don’t hold anything against them. It’s better to try and fail than not try at all.
Unfortunately the scale of what’s happening right now is existential, so they find themselves in the crossfire.
Not a single american voted for THIS. Trump didn't give any indication he was going to do this. This is ALL his doing. As far as you guys pushing americans to strap up, 1. Our quality if life has yet to be affected, when that happens, more people will act. 2. As for people like myself, I have a bi daughter, if and when the time comes for me to open up the armory, I will but right now, just.acting will ruin all of our lives. 3. I have worked extremely hard for my entire life, I just.got a house, reached my career goal and my lifes goal of making 6 figures.I'm not upper.class, but I've come from poverty and I'm not throwing that away. 4. WHEN things get bad or if trump actually acted on trying to take over.canada, more than half of.us would fight with you, but trump is.full of shit. Just.don't buy.american shit.and.move on with your lives. We got you. Shit will change, but don't expect me to pull the strap over mediocrity and toothless threats.
With all due respect, did you guys all forget about 2016 to 2020? Did you forget about Jan 6th?
I get that there were other issues to worry about during the election, but Project 2025 was out inthe open, it was in the press, democrats talked about it.
I do not believe for a second that half of you would show up to fight for Canada. How would you actually do that? American's aren't even fighting for themselves as DOGE is cutting out your entire government.
Trump just dumped the military lawyers and the top brass who won't swear fealty.
He's having his goverment draw up invasion plans for Panama, and do you really expect us to think he's not doing the same for Canada and Greenland behind closed doors?
WE FUCKING TOLD YOU
HE FUCKING TOLD YOU
THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION FUCKING TOLD YOU
I have the utmost sympathy and care for democrats and independents who tried and failed. I can't tell them how to feel, but I'd feel scared and helpless.
There's no relevance to "did". There's "doing" and "not doing".