Statement on Politics of Lemmy.ml
Statement on Politics of Lemmy.ml
Recently there have been some discussions about the political stances of the Lemmy developers and site admins. To clear up some misconceptions: Lemmy is run by a team of people with different ideologies, including anti-capitalist, communist, anarchist, and others. While @dessalines and I are communists, we take decisions collectively, and don't demand that anyone adopt our views or convert to our ideologies. We wouldn't devote so much time to building a federated site otherwise.
What's important to us is that you follow the site rules and Code of Conduct. Meaning primarily, no-bigotry, and being respectful towards others. As long as that is the case, we can get along perfectly fine.
In general we are open for constructive feedback, so please contact any member of the admin team if you have an idea how to improve Lemmy.
Slur Filter
We also noticed a consistent criticism of the built-in slur filter in Lemmy. Not so much on lemmy.ml itself, but whenever Lemmy is recommended elsewhere, a few usual suspects keep bringing it up. To these people we say the following: we are using the slur filter as a tool to keep a friendly atmosphere, and prevent racists, sexists and other bigots from using Lemmy. Its existence alone has lead many of them to not make an account, or run an instance: a clear net positive.
You can see for yourself the words which are blocked (content warning, link here). Note that it doesn't include any simple swear words, but only slurs which are used to insult and attack other people. If you want to use any of these words, then please stay on one of the many platforms that permit them. Lemmy is not for you, and we don't want you here.
We are fully aware that the slur filter is not perfect. It is made for American English, and can give false positives in other languages or dialects. We are totally willing to fix such problems on a case by case basis, simply open an issue in our repo with a description of the problem.
In general we are open for constructive feedback
My one big fear right now is that a mod could delete my words, and they would be lost forever.
Sometimes I write long essays here. They are ideas that I think are important and original. I write them so people will be able to read them many years into the future.
It's important that anything deleted by a mod or an admin can be saved by the creator afterwards.
I'd argue it's necessary that nothing can ever be fully deleted, if you want people to ever write anything important here.
That's why historically most of the most important world-change essays were written to newspapers. Once a newspaper is published, it is available forever. It can never be expunged.
I see your problem but I dont think this can be fixed with any rule change or Lemmy feature. It would be possible to let people access posts after they are removed by a mod, but that wont help if your account gets banned. Or if your account gets hacked and deleted. Or if the instance goes down permanently for some reason.
If you are worried about your content disappearing, you should keep backups. For example with an API client which regularly downloads everything to a local file. There is also a feature request for a functionality to export an archive with user data. Even better would be an external service like reveddit.com which reads content from the API and stores it.
I suggest you create a new post to discuss this problem, then more people can give their ideas and opinions.
Thanks. I have made many feature requests and you always consider them seriously (but usually reject them).
I should do one of those things.
Although there are many flaws, and we do complain, Lemmy is still the best (or least dysfunctional) forum in existence. So yous must be doing something right.
Although I'm more right-leaning than left, I personally think it's great that the people leading lemmy are communists, anarchists, etc. I think it helps provide a counter-balance to the more right leaning groups trying to avoid mainstream social media.
I like the idea of a slur filter as a moderation tool for any instance I am a part of, but I feel like it goes against the whole purpose of federated social media. Isn't the point of federated stuff that you are free of centralized control, with the freedom to pick an instance which suits your desires? It seems wrong to impose any moderation, no matter how justified, on an entire federated platform.
Generally though, I love this platform! Thanks so much for all your hard work!
I'm clearly "left-leaning", so I might be biased, but I don't agree with your criticism toward the slur filter : the project is open source, and as such people wanting to use these slur can work they way to another version. The devs explain here a clear intention to make this change difficult enough to prevent at least partially the migration of some communities they don't want to support and/or give a platform to. I think that's an honest way to do things ?
It also open up the debate on free speech and how saying some things actively attacks fundamental rights of others. In those cases, defending free speech as a "right" becomes irrelevant since both sides of the debate can use this logic to defend opposing actions. Trying to be short here, hope you understand what I mean !
The devs explain here a clear intention to make this change difficult enough to prevent at least partially the migration of some communities they don’t want to support and/or give a platform to.
I'm happy it's becoming harder for neonazis to find a home online, however i'm not happy that this makes lemmy english-centric, and i'm not happy that honest discussion about some topics (including thoughtful criticism) will be made harder.
Related example: on another message board a few weeks back i couldn't post a message containing my criticism of "bitcoin" because bitcoin was part of the slur filter to filter out the crypto-capitalist clique... i understand and appreciate why it was put in place, but i felt really powerless as a user that a machine who lacks understanding of the context of me using this word, decided i had no right to post it. I appreciate strong moderation, but i don't trust machine to police/judge our activities.
So as @PP44 is saying, it's open source. The devs work to make sure that anyone can set it up straightforwardly to run with their own modifications, not just the main version -- and that means modifying the slur filter is also supposed to be straightforward, even though it's not encouraged. There isn't actual moderation on the whole platform per se, since two instances can federate even if one has no slur filter. There are lots of "points" to federated stuff, though, so the existence of a slur filter works well to help keep Lemmy from attracting the cesspool-types while still enjoying those other benefits.
I think it helps provide a counter-balance to the more right leaning groups trying to avoid mainstream social media.
I think this point is important regardless of political spectrum. Lots of really nasty people have migrated to alternative platforms so that they can be nasty, but I'm glad Lemmy makes it clear enough that it's not one of their nasty spaces.
Ideological freedom encourages nasty people. And restrictions encourage thoughtless people.
You can go on notabug and ignore the crazy psychos and chat with the creative people.
You can go on reddit and find endless people with no independent thought, repeating things and not listening to reach other.
Lemmy is in the middle. But IMO that's not an objective good thing, it's a preference.
I'd say the entire politics thing has been an issue of the past for a good while. I remember there was a time when just about every thread about lemmy anywhere would turn into a complete mental shitshow and that wasn't exactly enticing. But I followed the development for a good while before jumping in, and the communication got gradually much more professional (in a good sense). And I wish people would stop digging that up from years ago since it doesn't really matter.
I'm glad you two can work on this full-time and hopefully the platform gets adopted by enough people that it will stay lively. Cheers.
New to Lemmy and the decentralized realm in general but really appreciate the work you've done here and the community thats been cultivated. As a long time Reddit Mod I have to say while I'm pretty anti content filtering in general...bravo to the slur verboten list. It is as you say a net positive for reasonable minded non hateful people. As long as the code is open source I'm fully behind it.
I think the slur filter has been removed a while ago.
yeahhhhh...new here and didnt realize the post date on the piece I was responding to. So, down with slur filter!! :) Oh well.
And developed by people who hate the fact that you're alive!
A comment about Lemmy I saw on Reddit. The slur filter really pulls its weight and keeps the bigots out, it was a great idea.
Every time we get recommendations to remove the filter I think of this. These bigots end up staying on reddit, or moving to other bigoted platforms, and avoid lemmy, making our lives a LOT easier :smiling face: . I could care less about "growth" if that growth means an influx of disgusting racists. I'd much rather have a smaller, positive community that defends members of targeted communities.
I keep saying this: the very existence of the slur filter, even though it's actually trivial to remove or modify, acts like an alt-right/MAGA/bigot/freeze-peach repellent even though it's trivial to remove or modify. Just look at the types of people on /r/RedditAlternatives who say they'll never go to Lemmy because of this, and what their priorities on platforms they're actually interested in are. To me, that's half the battle.
I can't tell you how much I appreciate this stance!
I think the slur filter is a brilliant idea, especially given the type of person it seems to bother most, and this site feels a lot less toxic than other online communities, probably as a direct result.
I could care less about “growth” if that growth means an influx of disgusting racists. I’d much rather have a smaller, positive community that defends members of targeted communities.
You have no idea how good it is to see this attitude from the central developers of the platform. How much better wouldn't the world be if more people were thinking like this? Kudos to you all!
Seeing the pile of comments on here, I just wanna go out of my way to say I think the slur filter is a great idea. Fascists will appropriate any leeway they're given regardless of the ideological motivations under which said leeway is provided
As a Scottish person, I've been tripped up by the slur filter only twice. Once was when I used the c word to describe Dominic Raab (I still stand by that), and the other was when I used twit by with an A instead of an I. I genuinely had no idea that it actually meant vagina! I've heard it since I was a child and had no idea what it actually meant.
Still, you can't really complain about it, it's more of a trivial thing to people who aren't being offensive.
"Twat" doesn't mean vagina, it's a slang term for clitoris. In the US, "cunt" is slang for vagina, and it is also a derogatory term, typically reserved for women.
Determining what is offensive and what is not is a complex matter. It isn't only in intent that words become harmful. I have never heard a person use the word "kaffir" as an insult, so I might think that using it was inoffensive. The one time I asked a crowd of people what it meant, my two friends from South Africa turned pale and told me to never, ever, ever use that word again.
The Internet takes us from being citizens of a country, to citizens of the world. It's on us to learn how to avoid insulting each other. Slur filters are one approach, but... they always have problems. Words aren't in themselves offensive; people are offensive. Instead of blocking words, I prefer to corral people who won't stop treating others badly. But I don't run Lemmy, and I'm thankful that this isn't a problem that I need to solve.
“Twat” doesn’t mean vagina, it’s a slang term for clitoris.
Google told me it meant vagina, lol.
Hi, I'm new to Lemmy. I saw the post about LemmyBB on hacker news and it brought me here. On the HN thread you can see the discussion on the slur filter right from the beginning. I consider myself very tolerant and I personally would not have added it by default. I also understand that the authors see things differently.
I want to thank the team who made this project a reality. You've built a serious alternative to a massive echo-chamber propaganda machine. THANK YOU. The slur filter is a non issue and whoever is only focused on that doesn't understand the dire situation we reached with walled gardens being built everywhere on the internet, which is actually becoming more of an intranet ...
I agree with the policy in concept, and I think it has generally done good. As a new user to the platform I am impressed by how friendly and non-vitriolic it seems to be.
Having the filter hard-coded and public is a great way to keep things transparent and free from abuse.
However, I do have some issues with the actual content of the list.
I'm not going to even allude to them for obvious reasons, but there are many slurs that really should be included and are not.
There's also the case of reclaimed slurs. While some of the slurs on the list are pretty much purely used by racists, a few are frequently used in a reclaimed context, and excluding them may harm or exclude the targeted group - possibly more so than to allow them.
The question is where you draw your line. Yes you have written rules, but rules are never clear enough not be overstepped or interpreted to the liking of the admins. Most abused rule would be "hateful, hurtful, oppressive remarks". These are the same rules that made reddit a liberal safe space. If that is your goal, then I deem lemmy redundant.
I ask you concretely what is your stance on reddits ban of:
r/the_donald r/gendercritical r/braincels r/pizzagate r/darknetmarkets
Your answer I have to take as a starting point of where things will be in 1, 2, 3 years, because a development towards abuse of power is almost inevitable.
I can tell you one thing, your username is not acceptable.
Because it has "hitler" in it? because that automatically makes me a fan of him? If that's all you can answer to my post that's incredibly sad. Go on living in your little bubble, go on living a life where the main purpose is to identify people to look down on from your little ivory tower of virtue. Congratulations, you've created a completely useless project. Bet you think you're a man of great thought. What makes a man great is going beyond his ego, having original thought and the integrity to stand by it. So literally the opposite of you. Bye.
I don't see how filtering very few words could annoy anyone, none of them are used in normal circumstances (except b***h I guess).
Instead of filtering the words, you could change them for something nice. Like changing "idiot" for "dork"; sounds like it'd make it fun (and of course, still filtering the worst offenders).
I generally don't like slur filters because I have bad experience with them, especially if they are not configurable. English is not the only language I use online and false positive are really annoying. I also don't like them because even in english, context matters. Though I'm maybe more willing to look past that if it improves the community.
All that said, I've had no problems with Lemmy's filters so far, but I do have a general distaste for them.
“We also noticed a consistent criticism of the built-in slur filter in Lemmy.”
- The funniest and most ironic thing about this is that the same people who criticize the filter are the first to insult you... These people already have a home. That home is called Reddit. And even if they're more fascist, they'd better use Gab. But no, this social network better not be corrupted. Lemmy is a very healthy social network. People are friendly, curious and intelligent. It sounds a bit cliché, but it's the truth. I like to make comments and posts here. I feel more free to express myself, unlike in Reddit. I just hope the core developers continue to moderate as well as ever, without giving in to pressure from those troublesome users. Keep it up 💪🏽💖
You have obnoxious people on all sides of the debate, including people who avoid listening to foreign ideas by labeling the other sides.
To be honest, nobody knows how the culture would be different under a different sweet of rules, especially the people who act most confident about it.
Social games, that is, sets of rules, are studied under many different disciplines. Things have been tried. Experiments have occurred, papers written. We know some stuff about how different kinds of rulesets work. Sorry if you dont like the fact that others have studied and tested things, but that does not mean you get to deny their knowledge.
Lemmy is run by a team of people with different ideologies, including anti-capitalist, communist, anarchist, and others.
❤️❤️❤️
I'm always the first to start these threads.
But it's good to remember, we chose Lemmy over sites like notabug because it works better. Some good decisions by the devs created a good website, enabling good discussions, which you just don't see elsewhere.
Some things like the "slur filter" seem sketchy, but you have to give the devs the benefit of the doubt. They clearly know a couple of things about forum design.
At the same time, it's important to talk about this stuff. Better ideas usually come from debate.
Isn't instance-blocking alone sufficient for being able to prevent the environment from being overrun? I understand the hesitancy to platform reactionaries, but as it stands the network effect is easily the biggest hurdle the Fediverse is going to face. Right-libertarians and actual reactionaries might be a net negative on the main instance, but as far as the software itself goes, numbers are numbers, and could end up making a world of difference.
Let them form their own circlejerks away from everyone else and have slur-blocking be on a per-instance basis, after all that's why the federated design works so well.
There are more important things than making numbers go up. Just the existance of the slur filter makes right-wingers upset, and stops them from even considering to use Lemmy. That makes our job much easier because we dont have to deal with them.
I like how the slur filter is described here:
"Note that it doesn’t include any simple swear words, but only slurs which are used to insult and attack other people."
but I guess the devil is in the details. Where do I see the actual words that are being blocked? When I clicked on the link I just saw a page of code which I cannot understand.
Lemmy is a fabulous creation - keep up the good work. I am excited to see what the future holds for Lemmy.
I dont know if the slur filter for lemmy.ml is posted publicly anywhere, but its just insults which no one would use in normal conversation. Also, each instance can define their own filter, or disable it completely.
The slur filter has been removed since this post was made.
I didn't even notice there was a slur filter. It seems to me that if you're not an asshole, it doesn't affect you one way or the other.