YSK: How to interact with police
YSK: How to interact with police
I was going to post this as a comment, but it was in an anarchism community, and I figured some sections of it might be unacceptable there. Hence, new post.
Here's a guideline of how to interact with cops. There are more or less three modes, depending on your read of the situation. Cops are not always the enemy or the maniacal whole-job-is-making-evil thugs that Lemmy sometimes makes them out to be. It really is bad for people to get mugged or their cars broken into, and they're the solution our society has come up with to minimize the amount of it that happens. It's not always a bad thing.
If you find yourself talking to the cops, there are more or less three ways:
- They're there to solve a real problem. Someone's car got broken into, someone got beat up. Just talk with them. Tell them what you know, help them figure out the situation. In almost all of the US, their effect on the problem will be positive, and it'll be a lot more positive if they have a good grasp of what happened. If, in your opinion, the person they're trying to catch really did do something that warrants a law enforcement response, then give them a hand. Use your judgement as to whether that's warranted of course, and your impression of the justice level in your local area, since it varies quite a lot in the US.
- They're there for you. Shut the fuck up. Don't say a goddamned word. It doesn't even matter if you didn't do it. Don't explain. Shut the fuck up. Be polite, obey lawful orders, definitely don't fight them or you'll get a felony and might also get injured or worse, but tell them that if you're suspected of a crime, then you'd like to talk to a lawyer, and you have nothing else to say. And then, shut the fuck up and cooperate. Maybe you want to go as far as "Were you shoplifting?" "What? No. That wasn't me, man." But any further explanation than that, just leave it alone. Definitely don't make something up on the spot, to make yourself sound innocent, if you did do it. For the love of God, don't do that.
- They're there for someone who didn't do anything wrong. The reason for this post is, anything and everything with ICE and immigration falls into this category. Some things with local cops will, also. Just be unhelpful and simple. No, I didn't see anything. I don't know. I'm not sure. Be vague. Don't get creative, keep it simple, don't refuse to give your ID or otherwise antagonize them or commit minor crimes of obstruction, but just do your best imitation of someone who just fell from the sky. "So you've NEVER MET your neighbor. Your neighbor across the hall." "Nope." "Are you sure?" "Yeah, I don't know." "I mean, she gave us your name, she said she'd talked to you." "I don't know, I don't remember that." Don't embellish. Don't explain why. Just calmly let the silence linger and the pressure build up, without adding extra words.
Like I said, everything with ICE or other immigration authorities falls into the third category. No exceptions. Everything. The same applies with any type of federal law enforcement, I suspect, for the next few years.
Do not talk to the police.
This is absolutely shit advice.
You are not obligated to talk to the police. The 25 word script:
- “Why did you pull me over?”
- “I’m not discussing my day.
- “Am I being detained or am I free to go?”
If you are being detained, invoke the 5th amendment.
"Why did you pull me over?"
"Sir, we're here because your house was robbed."
"I'm not discussing my day"
"So you can't tell me what was stolen and don't want a police report for your insurance?"
"Am I being detained or am I free to go?"
"You're in your house, sir."
I literally posted a link to a video which recommends your 25-word script, down below.
Not every interaction with the police is a traffic stop. Honestly, most traffic stops involve citations that are so trivial that it barely matters what you do, as long as you can manage not to get yanked out of the car for refusing to ID or something. This is talking about a lot more serious situations that don't have a one-size-fits-all answer to them.
Edit: Added "most." Sometimes, depending on what you've got in the car, the 25-word script is absolutely pretty fucking critical to stick to.
This is talking about a lot more serious situations that don't have a one-size-fits-all answer to them.
DON'T FUCKING TALK TO THE POLICE! YOU DON'T HAVE ANY OBLIGATION TO TALK TO THEM.
Just take the fucking L man. You're trying to justify to people that it's okay to talk to the police and there is literally no fucking reason to talk to them.
It is not your job to solve their crimes
It's not your job to make their job easier
It's not your job to make sure they have the right person
Your statements, however innocent you think they are, can and will be used against you. Doesn't matter if you're a witness, an innocent bystander, or criminal.
They are not your friend.
All cops are bastards. Full stop.
I had police called on me once. I was working for a homeowner while they were out of the country, and one of their neighbors called the police to report me being in the homeowners backyard.
I was watering their plants, by the way. But their neighbors might not have known or seen that since the backyard is behind the house and a fence.
Anyways, police showed up and took a few steps up the driveway to the side of the house where I was working and asked me if I was the homeowner. I politely said "No, I am not the homeowner." The officer gave me a look, to which I elaborated "I work for the homeowner, they are currently on vacation in [country name], and they asked me to water their plants for them." I was holding the water hose in my hand and the plants were wet on the side of the house he could see.
He was also polite, asked me for my ID which I presented, he took a picture of it on his phone and then took some notes. He asked me to hang out around the front of the home a bit because I think he may have been relaying information to dispatch, but then he came back and shook my hand and said "Thank you for being cooperative, I was on a call with the dispatch who told me the person who reported you said the homeowner was on vacation in [country name]. I don't want to take any more of your time, but hope you have a nice day and I already let dispatch know if anyone else calls about it to let them know you work for the homeowner." And that was that.
Be polite and respectful. Don't lie or be untruthful. You might not like the police, but they are still humans, treat them like humans. Purposefully making their job harder will never, ever end well for you.
Every citizen can choose for themselves if they wish to remain silent, and if you choose to do so you must say specifically that you exercise your right to remain silent. If you have to speak to the police for whatever reason after you said you exercise your right to remain silent, you are legally obligated to say you will continue to exercise your right to remain silent if you choose to continue to do so.
I have had exactly this type of experience, of being calm and straight with the cops, and they clearly really appreciate it in exactly the way you described because so much of their day consists of people who are acting like maniacs or lying through their teeth.
The one part I would take some exception to is "don't be untruthful." If you're guilty, then, I mean, definitely don't lie to make yourself innocent, but there's a big myth that cops like to promulgate that when you're guilty then you just need to be honest and they'll be able to help you out. This is wrong, wrong, wronger than wrong. Just ask for a lawyer.
But yes, being cordial with them while still protecting your rights will mean they'll generally do what they can to help you out in turn, and make your interaction a lot more better, absolutely.
If you are guilty of a crime, then certainly being truthful and cooperative with police can lead the Judge to be more lenient with sentencing than if you had been a problem. It also can directly lead to you being treated less roughly (or "normally") by police, and less additional charges ontop of your existing charge. Obviously it depends on the severity of the crime, but it is not entirely a myth. Judges usually have within their discretion a range of time for sentencing, and I have seen multiple times where a Judge takes the Defendant's cooperation and truthfulness into account, giving the lowest possible sentencing.
My personal opinion is to just be truthful and own your actions. Be accountable. If you broke the law you broke the law, you know? Yes, a lawyer can help lower your sentence, and its really never advisable to not speak to a lawyer, but its just my opinion of "If you cannot do the time, then do not do the crime." Yes, sometimes following the law can be a hassle, and yes there are laws I think are stupid and I do not agree with. But they are still the laws of the land and if I want to live here, then I am obligated to follow the law to the best of my ability.
THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVISE BY THE WAY
Be polite, be respectful. Kinda like bees. If you don't mess with them, usually the bees aren't going to mess with you. If you don't give police a reason to interact with you, unless you were a witness to a crime or something they will usually leave you alone, where I live at least. I am over 30 and that is the only interaction with police I have ever had where I would consider myself as a suspect. Also, I feel obligated to mention that I am a Mexican American, and a legal citizen.
Something for everyone: keep your license and registration/insurance in your sun visor, keep a state ID on you for ID purposes. Also keep your hands on the wheel until they are at the window. That and keeping the information in the sun visor ensure that your hands are in plain view the entire time. You don't have to suddenly start moving and digging around in a dark compartment. Police officers are trained to keep their eyes on your hands and if they can't see your hands they get nervous and that's when bad police officers start pulling guns and shooting people. Sounds stupid but it's what they're trained to do. Following this simple and straightforward advice will immediately de-escalate and improve your interaction with anybody pulling you over. I've actually had officers mention it after a stop and thank me for keeping my hands in plain view etc. The vast majority are just trying to do their job, and this advice makes it easier for them, makes them less fearful, makes them less prone to do something stupid.
I actually got that advice in a very nice concealed carry class I went to. A large portion of the multi-day class went over interactions with law enforcements what to do what not to do etc.
This is incredibly solid advice. Whether you're dealing with a perfectly reasonable police officer, or Shooty McSettlementByTheCity, it will be to your benefit to be cool with them and respect their desire to get through the interaction smoothly, and not have to be nervous about what you're doing.
I can summarize three of my last four encounters with law enforcement thusly:
1: "Hey stay where you are" "Sure" (talks to me briefly, gets on his radio, verifies I'm not the guy, okay cool you're free to go)
2 and 3: I actually was guilty of something minor, and the cop knew it, but because I was aboveboard with him and didn't make bullshit when I could have, he went pretty much to the limit of his ability to not get me in trouble for it. THIS IS NOT TO SAY YOU SHOULD BE HONEST WITH THE COPS. Just don't be a dick and make everyone's day more difficult, is what I'm saying.
Also, be white. It helps a lot.
There's a really big problem with this guidance. You may be in category 2 (i.e. a suspect) and not know it. They may also retroactively place you in that category, and everything you said can now be incriminating evidence
Maybe you want to go as far as “Were you shoplifting?” “What? No. That wasn’t me, man.” ... do your best imitation of someone who just fell from the sky. “So you’ve NEVER MET your neighbor. Your neighbor across the hall.” “Nope.” “Are you sure?” “Yeah, I don’t know.”
Wrong.
Don't tell the cops "I don't know" or "I didn't see anything," or anything of that ilk. Don't try to plead innocence. Don't try to use logic. It will only ever work against you, and it will never work in your favor. Always always always always.
Just tell them you exercise your right to be silent. Over and over again, if necessary. That is all you say. Be a broken record. There is no situation where you are actually obligated (in the US) to answer any type of questions for any type of law enforcement, at any time, for any reason, ever. That's all you need to tell them. You don't answer questions. You don't answer why you don't answer questions.
This is because you can also be prosecuted for lying to them, and their grounds for accusing you of lying can be pretty shaky but you still might get convicted. You can't be prosecuted for saying nothing.
Note that this will not prevent them from lying to you, which is legal, and making spurious threats of arrest or similar to attempt to intimidate you into complying. Be aware that this is automatically bullshit. At worst the can hold you for up to 48 hours (-ish, state laws vary on that point somewhat) without charging you with anything and even if they do, you still don't have to say anything to them.
If this happens, lawyer up immediately. You can sue them afterwards if it comes about that they violated any of your civil rights in the process.
In light of all of the above, I don't deal with the police at all.
Name and if necessary, driver's license. That's it. That's all I'm legally obligated to provide in my state, and even then only in specific circumstances. If they're on my actual property they can pack sand; No warrant, interaction. I won't talk to them, I won't even answer the door. If they want to try to bust in illegally, what happens after that is on them.
I will further never, ever call the police for any reason. They simply can't be trusted. If I have a problem with someone or something, I will solve it myself. The cops in my area have near as makes no difference to a 0% clearance rate for nuisance crimes, assault/battery, thefts, and burglaries anyway. Unless you need a report for insurance purposes it's useless, and at that rate I'll have my attorney call them on my behalf. They are not in the business of helping you. So don't even expect that they will.
TL;DR: Don't talk to the police.
"What day is it? IT'S SHUT THE FUCK UP FRIDAY!"
I am so happy to see this. I posted one of the videos below.
It is always Friday.
usa sounds like a nightmare
This is correct answer, never speak to the police. They can and will use anything you say and try to make you guilty of SOMETHING.
...And even if you are not the perpetrator, that doesn't matter. The police are pressured to arrest somebody. At the end of the day it really doesn't matter to them who it is, and the perp got a way while in the meantime you're standing right here. It's much easier to harass you.
Do you have warrants? Are you sure? Do you have parking tickets? Is your name similar to someone else they want for something else? Do they smell weed? Are you black? Etc., etc., etc.
It's not worth it. Don't interact.
I agree with this. In the US you can only be compelled to answer questions if you are given immunity, which will almost never happen.
You don't actually have the right to remain silent as pertains to other people's crimes. You could be compelled to testify, if it comes to that, and in theory you could be prosecuted if you lie, although it's very unlikely to happen.
There are situations where what you're saying is accurate: Every single cop who might answer the call for service is the enemy, or you might get a really bad outcome for "snitching," or simply stonewalling with mild hostility is better for some reason than "I don't know her." My advice was general advice for most of the US, not applicable to every situation someone might find themselves in.
Wrong.
Everyone thinks they have rights until there's a gun in their face.
When the fascists knock on your door you do what you must to survive and never throw anyone else under the bus.
In that scenario, my people have an ancient and traditional saying:
It is on, son.
Bad advice
Don’t talk to cops unless you are legally obligated to do so. Depending on the state you may have to identify yourself, and in some locations and contexts provide identification. You should know your local laws. In my state it is not required even if detained although in practice refusal to identify just means you aren’t going home for a looooong time. You do have to give your license if you’re stopped while driving, of course, but you do not have to answer any other questions other than signing the citation. The aclu has a website clearly outlining what you are required to do in each state including wallet sized cards with the information
Real police advice: if they’re giving you shit shut the fuck up. If they’re arresting you just go with it. You aren’t going to win. They’re going to call in 900 back up units and 2 helicopters with thermal imaging and a tank to track you because they’re basically an army now. The more you resist the more likely you die and become a sad headline that people post and forget about in 20 minutes. They aren’t trained to take you down safely. They aren’t trained to de escalate. They aren’t trained to control their anger. They will often get furious if you resist their authority and take out that aggression on you with extreme violence. They will slam you to the ground, choke you, punch you, beat you with their knock off tonfa, taze you repeatedly, and restrain you in ways that are dangerous and restrict your breathing. They will outright ignore you if you plead for help or become unresponsive. They will let you die, wait 5-10 minutes despite being on camera, then call for medical who will take another 10 minutes to respond to your long dead corpse that could’ve possibly been resuscitated 15 minutes ago if they hadn’t stood around doing nothing like ghouls. They have 0 serious repercussions for this behavior, at worst they’ll get shuffled around
Let them arrest you, shut the fuck up, and fight it in court. Unfortunately you will need resources to do this and pretty substantial ones. I just hired a lawyer to process documents for a subpoena against a client in my healthcare practice. It was a fairly simple case of document review and it cost $2300. Probably took him 45 minutes of actual work, if that. The system is unfair and rigged against you.
Real real police advice as a result: avoid them at all costs.
You covered scenario 2 in detail, yes. If someone steals my car, and they go to talk to my neighbor and he says "I don't answer questions. Am I being detained?", then fuck my neighbor, as far as I'm concerned.
Fuck your car, the cops aren’t gonna find it. They’re there to write a police report so you can get an insurance claim.
The only way they recover your stolen car is if the person who stole it joyrides it and abandons it. Your neighbors testimony isn’t helpful in this scenario
If your car was desirable and actually stolen for parts or to be resold it’s long gone and the cops will do absolutely nothing
Similarly if your home was burglarized. Look at the statistics of solve rates for these crimes in your city. If they’re anything like mine they are shockingly low and the only reason they aren’t 0 is because of literal happenstance like the above scenario and not actual “detective work”
However, your neighbor opening their door for the cops does create a host of potential issues for your neighbor. Perhaps they have drug paraphernalia in plain sight in their living room? Now the cops have probable cause to search their home without a warrant because you think those noble officers are going to search high and low for your shitty car (they aren’t). Or they’re an illegal immigrant, the cops are racist, and see an in to send ins later that day. Or your neighbor is rude and standoffish, escalates things with the cop (who are known for their expert de escalation skills) and then ends up getting arrested for “obstruction”
The cops should have thought of that before they started abusing their authority and needlessly victimizing people. If they didn't act the way they do, people would trust them enough to talk to them.
Don't hate the players, hate the game.
Pro tip: They're not going to find your car anyway, and even if they do the only reason was because whoever stole it abandoned it somewhere after wrecking it. In my area they take about 4 to 24 hours to even show up for such calls, so for this example the chances of them actually catching the perp in the act and getting your car back before it's trashed are zero.
Another helpful phrase: "Am I being charged with a crime or am I free to go?"
Terrible advice. Please, check this guide from Projet Évasions (PDF warning) instead.
Cops are not always the enemy or the maniacal whole-job-is-making-evil thugs that Lemmy sometimes makes them out to be.
Yes, they literally are. All cops are bastards, always, everywhere, forever, no exceptions, no matter what they are currently doing or have done prior, and capitalism is always evil, so their whole job is in fact making evil, and anytime they do something beneficial is an accident. If a person puts on that uniform, they're a worthless piece of shit. End of story. Individual cops can stop being pieces of shit by burning the uniform and trying to fix the lives they have broken.
It really is bad for people to get mugged or their cars broken into, and they're the solution our society has come up with to minimize the amount of it that happens. It's not always a bad thing.
Emphases mine. I'll take them one by one:
- Cops were and are imposed on us by the capitalist class. Any consent ever expressed for these monsters has been beaten into us by generations of police violence and then solidified by propaganda.
- That is not their purpose. Their purpose is to maintain order for capitalism. Historically, modern police forces descended from slave-catching patrols. In interrogations specifically, their purpose is to gather information to build up a case file. The presence of police does not deter crime, and the deterrence of crime is only a pretext for the police to do what they're actually paid to do.
- Interacting with cops is always an immediate personal danger, especially after you have been hurt or are vulnerable, because they are unhinged monsters who will send you to the morgue if you make them too uncomfortable. You might decide to make that choice to interact with them to prevent some greater evil, for example being courteous during a traffic stop to prevent the cops from detaining you for being suspicious. But at the end of the day, we must recognize that any interaction with the cops is always treacherous.
If you find yourself talking to the cops, there are more or less three ways:
They're there to solve a real problem.
No they aren't, they're there to enforce the will of the capitalist class. Practically , they're there because they either think they witnessed a violation of the law, or because someone called them. Rarely do they even attempt to solve problem, and in the rarer circumstance that individual cops do solve a problem, it is because they betrayed their actual function as cops.
Someone's car got broken into, someone got beat up. Just talk with them. Tell them what you know, help them figure out the situation.
No you fucking don't, because that cop will likely use your evidence to go after someone who didn't do it. They don't stop crime, they don't solve crimes, they only provide information to the judges and terrorize the streets while doing it. Don't help the cops with property crimes.
In almost all of the US, their effect on the problem will be positive
Use your judgement as to whether that's warranted of course, and your impression of the justice level in your local area, since it varies quite a lot in the US.
Don't use your judgement, use the judgement of the victims! If they don't want the cops involved, then they don't get involved and that should be the end of the discussion.
The same applies with any type of federal law enforcement, I suspect, for the next few years.
It has applied for the entire existence of the modern police, and it will continue to apply as long as police exist. The guide I linked was written in 2022. Yes, we need to hammer this point over and over and over until people understand that no administration, even the so-called lesser-evil party, will ever be on their side except perhaps by accident.
I was going to post this as a comment, but it was in an anarchism community, and I figured some sections of it might be unacceptable there.
Rightly so, because it's terrible advice and it's clear to me that you haven't sought out any wisdom from the community. What you should have done was asked for critique. We would have loved to talk about this in more detail on any anarchist forum.
In my view, it is so much more important to listen to people as an anarchist (or any kind of revolutionary) than it is to spout off my views, hence why I don't really post that often. Even this comment I expect and hope to get torn to shreds in the hope of improving the quality of my understanding of the world. So next time, please actually solicit the advice of your comrades before making statements, and in general do some research before making posts like these. Hence why I have started this comment with a link to a guide solicited from a group of anarchists.
No they aren’t, they’re there to enforce the will of the capitalist class. Practically , they’re there because they either think they witnessed a violation of the law, or because someone called them. Rarely do they even attempt to solve problem, and in the rarer circumstance that individual cops do solve a problem, it is because they betrayed their actual function as cops.
I had an interaction with the cops this week. They solved our problem when someone else had completely failed, even though it was that other person's job. I'm actually just about to call the precinct and talk to them again about it, because we still have some questions.
You are mistaking your ideology for reality. You don't need to learn anything, or test any assumptions, because your ideology already gave you the answer and your emotional conviction lets you know that it's right. That's a dangerous mistake.
Rightly so, because it’s terrible advice and it’s clear to me that you haven’t sought out any wisdom from the community. What you should have done was asked for critique. We would have loved to talk about this in more detail on any anarchist forum.
No, you would have loved to give me "the answer," using the model that everything I think is stupid and everything you think is right and can't be questioned. I'll pass.
No, you would have loved to give me "the answer," using the model that everything I think is stupid and everything you think is right and can't be questioned. I'll pass.
*sigh* No I wouldn't have, no I don't think that everything you think is stupid, and I most certainly do not think that everything I think is right and can't be questioned. In fact, I rewrote my reply several times because I wanted to critique my own beliefs before I posted it. And I indicated in my reply that I desperately want my response to be torn apart to improve my understanding of the world. The guide I posted is not the answer, but I do believe it is a good one.
And I'm sorry if anarchists have treated you like that. I desperately want you to contribute to the discussion, because you probably have some experience to offer that can add some subtlety to the discussion. But a discussion goes both ways. Even on Lemmy.world, there are about a dozen people telling you that their experience contradicts your advice. It at least calls for some thought.
You are mistaking your ideology for reality. You don't need to learn anything, or test any assumptions, because your ideology already gave you the answer and your emotional conviction lets you know that it's right. That's a dangerous mistake.
Isn't this the exact kind of thing you just accused anarchists of doing to you? You're dismissing my experience, and frankly the experience of almost every single other commenter here, as mere "ideology". This so-called anti-police "ideology" (really "sentiment") is the distilled experience of thousands of anarchists and millions of working people of all stripes. Please at least listen to it. I can't and don't want to force you to internalize it, but please at least listen. Listening is what separates a shitty anarchist from a good one.
I had an interaction with the cops this week. They solved our problem when someone else had completely failed, even though it was that other person's job. I'm actually just about to call the precinct and talk to them again about it, because we still have some questions.
That genuinely sucks, and I hope it works out for you. The point I'm trying to make is that, as far as the function of the police are concerned, your positive experience is an accident. It is not designed to help you.
sticking to “am i being detained” and “lawyer” works wonders got out a fucked situation with the first. Genuinely the biggest gang in the US, treat them as such
Another YSK post only applicable for US citizens?
Hm. In the US, that would be alright except when he refused to tell them who he was. That can get you arrested. I get how "I don't answer questions" is good just because it's specific enough that you can stick to it when shit's getting a little bit real, but it also doesn't really apply to all questions or all situations.
Here's a defense law office giving their abbreviated take on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqo5RYOp4nQ
They have a longer one, where they told a story of an illegal dispensary that got raided. Two employees tried to explain their way out of it. A third employee just shut the fuck up. The first two got charges, because their attempt to talk their way out of it confirmed that they were working there as employees. The third guy, nobody could prove a damn thing about why he was there. Was he a customer? An employee? Had he wandered in to use the bathroom? Nobody knows. And so, he was free to wander on his merry way, while the other two had some minor but not real enjoyable charges to deal with.
Shut the fuck up.
You are not required to identify yourself if you are not operating a motor vehicle (in which case you must supply your license if asked) and you have not been accused of any specific crime. "Being suspicious" or "fitting a description" or "we got a call" is not a specific crime. If there is not reasonable suspicion that you were the one who committed an articulable crime, you don't have to provide your name.
Read up on your state's laws. If your state is not a "stop and identify" state you don't even have to identify yourself if you have been accused of a crime. That's for the police to figure out themselves if they care so damn much. You invoke the 5th.
In this guy's case (I don't know what to make of the accents or the checkboard hats or the Astra, so I suspect this is not meant to be happening in the USA, but whatever) he is on his own property, has not been shown a warrant, and has not been accused of a crime. He doesn't have to state anything. If he is not required to interact with these police at all. He's not even obligated to open the door. If these cops had a single pinky toe to stand on, they'd have shown up with a warrant.
In the US, that would be alright except when he refused to tell them who he was.
More generally, this depends heavily on the details of the interaction, and the US state where the interaction was taking place.
In the "I don't answer questions" clip, if it were in the US, the police probably did have enough to arrest the guy, however "The court also held that the Fifth Amendment could allow a suspect to refuse to give the suspect's name if he or she articulated a reasonable belief that giving the name could be incriminating." Since the officers were asking for a specifically named person, it might be within the guy's 5th Amendment rights to refuse to identify himself. Would his not identifying himself as the person they were looking for make it so they couldn't (shouldn't) arrest him? Possibly, since they're looking for someone with a specific name, and they don't know that that guy is named that.
Of course, you might beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride.