Saruman also blocks Rowan's military assistance to Gondor

It's possible to criticize Biden and be unhappy about his age without acting like him and trump are equally as bad, which a lot of "centrists" do to justify not voting. Those people are the ones being criticized in this post.

Yep. Trump voters don't give a shit. They'll vote no matter what. The people pushing the idea of not voting out of protest or whatever aren't doing it honestly, at least not the first ones. The first ones are trying to get Trump elected. They might convince some fools to also push the same message without following the agenda.
- The problem is, and why Reagan made a rule to not do it, is that when you call out your own side you give your enemy a fucktonne of ammo to use against you and sway moderates.
  
  Look what happened to Al Franken and we've DESPERATELY needed him these last few years.
  
  I love Jon Stewart and I really enjoyed his most recent segment where he calls out both sides, making it CLEAR that trumpty dumpty is the worst offender, but it's already being used to make the moderates think that dems are abandoning Biden.
  
  Look what happens when you refuse to call out your own side, the GOP has become a complete clown show because of it.
  
  The other guy is downvoted, but I think you're both right. There's a time and place for both though. Biden needs critics, but the public face still needs to be behind him. I do think this is what's happening however, because Biden has the most boring liberal policies, but his administration hasn't been exactly that. It hasn't been great, but it's been far better than I expected, which I expected just pure pro-business liberal agenda stuff.
  
  The critics need to work moving politics left, but we still need to get voters to elect democrats (not just for president) until there's a realistic alternative. If people just don't vote they aren't just not voting for Biden. They're going to hand the house and senate to Republicans too, which they'll use to probably make the judicial brand even more conservative as well. We really can't have that.
  
  And look what happens when we give ammo to the other side, we lose Al Fucking Franken when we needed him most. The GOP is a hell of a lot more infested with rot than the dems to a degree it is almost an order of magnitude. We can afford to turtle up for a presidency or two.
  
  What we CANNOT afford to do, is the opposite of that.
  
  I am sorry, but in the US there is no moderates between the Dems and Reps. The Dems are representing far right neoliberalism and imperialist warmongering. The Reps are representing far right neoliberalism, imperialist warmongering and on top social values from the 50s, now sprinkled with a lot of fascism.
  
  What would be considered moderate, by the standard of other western democracies is distinctively left of the Dems. And Dems are getting away with moving further and further to the right, as they can always say "see the other guy is worse". If a sizeable part of the people unhappy with the Dems would vote a third party, it would actually threaten their power basis and force them to become a real alternative to the Reps.
  
  You're right that moderate in the US has different politics than the rest of the world. However, there are obviously moderates in the US and it's weird to consider what it even means to say there isn't. We all know there isn't a leftist party in the US, but that's not saying the same thing. Moderates are people who haven't chosen a side to vote between Democrat and Republican, wherever they lie politically.
Yeah, but is anyone actually saying they're equally, "bad," or just that they're both too old for this? I've heard people say that both shouldn't be running but they'll vote for Biden, or that Trump is fine and Biden is senile and criminal and part of the cabal (or whatever they believe these days), but I've never heard anyone say, "both are too old, therefore they're equal and I won't vote for either." That seems like strawman meant to delegitimize criticism of Biden's age.
- I have personally seen people say that so they do exist.
  
  I've seen lots of people accused of saying that when they give any criticism of Biden, but I've yet to actually see someone actually say that. At least my personal experience is like 10:0 of people accusing a specific person of saying that to the person actually saying that. That kind of POV I saw a lot more during Obama vs Romney, but not Biden vs Trump.
  
  Just because someone says they're not voting for someone who actively helps fund genocide doesn't mean they're saying the major alterative is equal. Just that neither major candidate passes the extremely low bar to be willing to vote for them.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone say they're equally bad. I've seen a shitload of memes like this one that imply it's widespread though.
- Exactly. It definitely isn't a, "centrist," position either, centrists are firmly behind Biden. It feels like something leftists who are considering voting third party might say, but again, it's not something I've actually seen anyone say. This feels like a meme in search of a problem.
  
  In my experience people get a lot of that dumb camelcased "both sides" crap any time they make a legitimate criticism about Biden. It's like a lot his supporters take a firm "with us or against us" stance. Which, ironically, is fucking exactly what the trump people do lol
  
  Which, ironically, is fucking exactly what the trump people do lol
  
  Are you saying Trump supporters and Biden supporters are equal! /s
  
  Yeah, that's my sense as welll. This meme feels like it was written by the kind of person who responds to any criticism of Biden with, "Oh so you want Trump to win?"
- I've seen it a few times. You probably won't see it much on lemmy since lemmy is pretty left leaning for the most part and doesn't have as many of those types of centrists, but those people do exist on other sites that I've seen.
I am not a centrist by any strech of the imagination, but within a pretty slim margin of error just as bad as each other. What has biden even done in his term that is a net benefit.

I'm getting tired of people going on and on about their ages as if it's something nobody noticed before. As if it's going to change the situation.

A lot of Americans like voting for old fuddy duddies. You can't control how other people vote, you can only control how you will vote. Old people vote and young people tend not to. You aren't going change anything in a democratic process by not voting.

86% of Americans think Biden is too old to be President. 62% of Americans think Trump is too old to be President. 59% of Americans think both are too old to be President. Most Americans, by a wide margin, do not like voting for, "old fuddy daddies."

Very few people are saying, "don't vote," but most people are saying, "don't allow these men to run the country." This meme is either targeting a very niche person or creating a strawman for the majority of people by equating, "these men are too old," with, "these men are the same, don't vote."
Old people vote and young people tend not to. You aren't going change anything in a democratic process by not voting.

The presidential election isn't democratic. In fact, it's antidemocratic by design.

With that said, you won't change anything voting between two conservatives either.
What's the deal with this certainty that this is the result of people's will? I'm more inclined to beleive it is a systemic result of 'winner takes all' logic and the penetration of political and media institutions by bad actors.

Do you honestly think that anything will convince the DNC to forward ANY candidate except the one that already beat cheetolini?

I mean, I'm voting for blue despite my misgivings because I KNOW how dangerous twice impeached seditionists are to our democracy, but I am not doing it with enthusiasm.

The DNC will never allow an actual progressive anywhere near the presidency.

But the DNC will also never change, if their actions have no consequences.

If they can perpetually get away with "Well our candidate is not aspiring to be a second Putin", all that does is push the political spectrum further and further to the right, until the DNC will give you a Putin and the Republicans will give you a Mussolini.
- And so, to make the DNC face concequences, let's make them lose to the candidate that's aspiring to be a second Mussolini immediately! When he does the Day of the Rope, all those trans people who get hanged will appreciate that we made sure the DNC had concequences!
  
  I understand your concern. You should ask yourself though, if the Dems would actually stand up for trans rights, if they had to. So far my impression was, that they are happy to throw any minority under the bus, if it serves them opportunistically.
  
  And they think they can do that, because they hold each minority hostage with the lie of "we are the best you can expect"
  
  So I say that you're proposing to throw away trans lives for the principle of the thing, and your response is that Dems might throw away trans lives for some kind of ephemeral opportunity that hasn't come around in the last ~15 years or so. If, and I do mean if, they did throw away trans lives for whatever it is you're fear mongering about here, at least that's more than the nothing we'd get under your plan of "split the vote to make sure Rs win, then the DNC would learn something for the next election that will be canceled by the Rs." Even in your defense you laid out the question is would I rather have something or nothing? I'd rather have something. And I don't think they would either way.
  
  Show me where the republicans advocate for genociding trans people?
  
  Because right now Biden is supporting a genocide.
  
  Also why is it that anyone deems it acceptable policy, that either party on the ballot supports some form of murdering minorities?
  
  So you don't understand my concern at all. You should probably pay attention to the rhetoric and policies pushed by conservative politicians and media before you say democrats are just as bad as them.
- the DNC will also never change, if their actions have no consequences.
  
  What consequences do you propose?
  
  Voting for a progressive third party, to show them that they have to offer the best e.g. most agreeable position, that is more progressive of the republican reactionarism.
  
  Also if people would organize to do so, it could become an existential threat to them, and ideally bring on a new party that is not corrupted by capitalism and imperialism like the Dems are.
  
  Voting for a third party is voting for the major-party candidate you like least.
  
  It's how the system works, and encouraging people to vote 3rd party over Biden right now only makes sense if you're wanting Trump to win.
  
  No, voting for a third party is voting for a third party. If that party gains enough track to become the second most elected, that party can be the winning party the year after.
  
  Also in about every other democracy the concept of coalitions exist, where parties agree to form a coalition by negotiating a compromise between their policies.
  
  The issue is that the US politics are made to be the same as stock market companys. Only ever think to the next term. Never think further. Never try to bring positive change over a longer time. Always just fight the next battle of existential dread and prepare the country for the next battle being even more dreadful, while the people suffer more and more.
  
  This mindset of mainting this toxic status quo is part of the reasons, why Trump could win in 2016 in the first place. He understood that all he needs to do, is being an entertaining asshole, that claims to not be part of the establishment. And you saw, how quick some of the Reps, and many "conservatives" were to dump Trump, after the sentiment turned against him a bit after the fallout of Jan 6. /r/conservative was hilarious for this, as all of a sudden everyone was talking about how they always were wary of Trump and how it is good that the Reps would get back to being the party of reason. (With people like Ted Cruz being endorsed as reasonable, lmfao) But the Trumpists stood out the backlash and now all the Reps are sucking up to him again.
  
  It will not become better, if Trump won't win this time, or if he ends his second term. He is only one head of a Hydra of what is wrong with the US. And the Dems are guarding the neck whenever the head is severed, so two new heads can grow.
  
  Yeah, our politics are fucked.
  
  How will voting in a method statistically certain to benefit a literal fascist help?
  
  Were voting against Trump because he is a threat to democracy. Bush, McCain, and Romney were not.
  
  The only way to accomplish what you propose is to switch our elections to ranked choice voting.
  
  Otherwise, I'm sorry but you're stuck with the two major party choices.
You know you can become a member of the DNC right? You know that you have representatives on the DNC you can contact, right? You know you have influence on the DNC if you actually choose to exercise it, right?
- You don't know I volunteered in all local and state level elections from 1991 to 2006?
  
  You don't know that I manned the phones both times for Bernie a minimum of 15 hours a month?
  
  You SHOULD know that the only influence normal people have in the DNC directly relates to how much they can donate, and hours apparently don't equate to voice.
  
  I'm fucking turning half a century this year, you do this shit I paid my time.
  
  So like, you haven't tried to contact your DNC reps?
  
  I'm sorry that reading comprehension is difficult for you.
  
  But, good news!
  
  Nearly every college and university offers free adult literacy classes.
  
  You don't have to live your life like this any more!
  
  You don't know I volunteered in all local and state level elections from 1991 to 2006?
  
  Hmm, no mentions of the DNC here...
  
  You don't know that I manned the phones both times for Bernie a minimum of 15 hours a month?
  
  Hmm, no DNC mentions here..
  
  You SHOULD know that the only influence normal people have in the DNC directly relates to how much they can donate, and hours apparently don't equate to voice.
  
  Hmm, no mention of you actually interacting with the DNC here...
  
  I'm fucking turning half a century this year, you do this shit I paid my time.

As a Tolkien fan and someone who hates voting for octagenarians, this post triggers me more than I'd like to admit.

Equating the upcoming election to this isn't a choice between Saruman and Gandalf, it's between Saruman and Sauron, but instead of picking either of those guys, you pick Aragorn, who Gandalf really likes.

So what we should do, instead of voting for either, is ask ~~Gandalf~~ Bernie Sanders who he'd like to be president and vote for that guy.

Also, the whole "line of kings is broken" portion of this joke feels way to close to an RFK Jr. joke for my taste. The man's insane.

It really does bother me that so few are willing to recognize what a shitty president Biden has been.

I mean, if you're a wage earner in half of the US states, Biden did jack shit to help you and you can still be legally paid $7 an hour, but he moved heaven and earth to make more money appear out of thin air for Israel, Ukraine, and other miscellaneous wars when he's already budgeted a trillion dollars for war.

I don't understand why I shouldn't expect a progressive use the power of the presidency to make real positive change as hard as Trump used it to try and ban Muslims.
- Also Biden is supporting Israel in its genocide against the Palestinians. A muslim political analyst coined it this way:
  
  "Why should you vote for the guy that is commiting genocide, over the person that might commit genocide? Commiting genocide must be a red line to not vote someone."
- ^This is a forum sliding account.

Remember that any criticism of Biden, no matter how legitimate, is definitely pro-trump Russian propaganda. God forbid people don't just want to vote against something.

At the end of the day, this is how it is. The system is absurdly broken. We couldn't possibly be here if it wasn't. The fact that they keep shoving Biden at us doesn't mean that we shouldn't choose him over the much more overt fascist Trump, but it also doesn't mean that we should accept him.

No matter who's elected, everyone should fucking riot.

If you really think that to be the case then democracy is already dead and Putin has won.
- Liberal democracy was a scam before Putin was born. Putin just exploited it's weakness, like all fascists do.
  
  There was found no evidence that Putin engaged in any illegal election interference.
Remember that any criticism of Biden, no matter how legitimate, is definitely pro-trump Russian propaganda. God forbid people don’t just want to vote against something.

How the Fuck does that work, You are sauing that no one is alowed to have and air grevences of the PRESIDENT, or gosh even worse try to hold them accountable because "the other guy is Trump" Look I get it, I do not like trump either, but FFS grow up, not everyone who is complaining is pro-trump, not everything anti-biden or pro trump is russian. Trump is very much a home grown american thing, and you cannot start to adress the socital issues untill you accept that.

Also Putin himself said he would perfer Biden... or are you going to twist yourself into knots about how that means he wants Trump
- Any time someone criticizes Biden a bunch of liberals crawl out of the woodwork and yell about how you're pro-Trump and a Russian asset and all sorts of shit like that. What you quoted is mostly sarcasm.

oh is that what this meme is about?

The vice presidential debate is more important than ever.

No it's not, it's end of (or decline of) democracy vs current (shitty) state of democracy.

I don't think I've seen anyone doing that, it's just a very easy choice. Deal with Biden after the guy who isn't losing his mind due to old age is out of the picture. At least Biden is under the control of his support staff.

And learn what gaslighting is if you're so eager to use that annoying buzzword.

Is the implication here that Trump isn't losing his mind due to old age? Motherfucker have you heard him speak??
- Trump's losing his mind has little to do with age. He never had much up there to start with.
- He was an egomaniac from day one.
A) I was using gaslightimg in its more general sense of making someone question their sense of reality, in this case by making concerns about Biden's age seem silly or unfounded, even though they are very reasonable and shared by the majority of Americans. If you think it should only be used to describe the form of psychological abuse, fair enough, that is closer to the, "real," definition, but remember that both uses are colloquialisms, and, "gaslight," is and always has been a pop-psychology term, not a clinical one.

B) Why the hell is it a good strategy to ignore Biden's age until after Trump is gone? 86% of the country thinks he's too old to be President. 73% of Democrats think he is too old to be President. In a functioning democracy, a real primary would have been held; Biden probably would have lost to a younger candidate, who probably would have gone on to beat Trump, since 62% of the country thinks he's too old to he President.

As I said, if the alternative is Trump, we should all vote Biden and let the DNC Weekend at Bernie's him through another term. But running a candidate that 86% of Americans think isn't fit to be President is not a smart or reasonable strategy, it's an insane and unnecessary risk.
- I don't know about american politics, but how did Biden win primary?
  
  Last election, Bernie Sanders was winning, which the DNC didn't like, so as soon as Biden won a state they pressured all the othe candidates to drop out and endorse him. This year, there simply isn't a real opponent.
  
  Isn't he even older than Biden? There wasn't someone more... fresh?
  
  The sad thing is there really isn't. America lives under a gerontocracy, and the Democratics are especially bad a elevating new, young voices in their party. Dianne Feinstein was 90 years old and had dementia and the Democrats didn't force her to resign. She served as a senator while experiencing cognitive decline for at least the last two of her life before dying in office.
  
  Even the, "new," faces that are coming up are old. Every now and then you get a Pete Buttigieg, but by and large, most of the potential presidential candidates will be pushing retirement age by the next election. Gavin Newsom will be 60, Kamala Harris will be 63, Amy Klobuchar will be 67...they may not be quite as old as Biden, but I certainly wouldn't call them, "fresh."
  
  Is there anyone at most 20 years old? Maybe 30?
  
  Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is 34. The DNC hates her because she's very progressive and unseated Joe Crowley, who everyone expected would take over the speakership from Nancy Pelosi. That being said, the Constitution says that the President has to be at least 35 years old, and I think most Americans would prefer an experienced politician that's in their mid 40s to early 50s for President. We need younger law makers though, people in their 20s and 30s.
  
  experienced politician that's in their mid 40s to early 50s
  
  I think starting from 20 y.o. 5 year term in municipal council and 5 year term as governor or in regional council is experienced more than enough. How it comes 18 years is old enough to die in trenches, but too young to be president? But I guess it's better to simply say Americans are Americans.
  
  We need younger law makers though, people in their 20s and 30s.
  
  Same here
- But this image isn't making out it's a reasonable situation, is it? It's emphasising just how easy a decision it is, albeit by hyperbole.
  
  Well, my comment was mostly directed your claim that we should, "deal with Biden," after the election. If Trump is as dangerous as the Dems say he is (which, to be clear, I think he is), that's a lot like saying, "we can talk about putting Grandpa in a home after he drives the kids to soccer practice."
  
  To your point about the meme, is there anyone that's actually struggling with this decision? I've never encountered anyone who claims their equally bad (online or IRL), but I know a lot of people (apparently 59% of Americans) that think they're both too old to be President. So, to me, this meme is delegitimizing criticism of Biden's age by falsely equating those two positions.
  
  No it's just stressing how much worse Trump is regardless. It's preaching to the converted, I don't think it's trying to rationalise issues with Biden, it's poking fun there, too.
  
  I mean, this meme is clearly making fun of someone, it just comes down to whether it's a real, common viewpoint or a person the author made up in their head to get mad at.
  
  Gandalf is Biden, Saruman is Trump. Biden is being played down and ridiculed, Trump is being compared to a murderous lunatic whom anyone is, however regrettably, a better option to.
  
  ...yeah, and there is a first person narrator saying that they're both, "so old," and, "equally bad choices," whose indecisiveness is being mocked. That strawman is what I've been complaining about, are you not following this?
  
  That's sarcastic.

You're not the target of the meme if you're able to understand that voting for Biden is a necessity.

Its an extortion

was trump significantly worse? I mean his retoric was awful yes, and he was a mask off facist, but Biden has done almost nothing to undo what trump started, and in some cases has activly sped it up, the only difrence that I can see is that Biden talks more polite

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