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I guess Israel were too busy genociding Palestinians to make it to the meeting.
Maybe Hamas shouldn’t start shit.
except the israelis were the ones starting shit 7 decades ago
hamas is just a convenient excuse for genocide
Points to the October attack on Israel.
Total war on Gaza looks pretty damn justified to me.
Ah yes. History began on October 7th. There is no context to anything involving anything prior to October 7th 2023.
Although even looking at just October 7th and what has happened since... kind of elucidates what the fuck has been going on.
Hell even 7 decades ago Einstein was looking at what was just starting and went "Well this is some Nazi shit."
200 dead from a terrorist attack committed by terrorists justifies 20,000 civilian deaths by carpet bombing and levelling entire communities?
If Hamas is wiped out then yes, that is what total war is.
If Hamas really cared for the people under its authority, it would not have attacked nor would it use them as human shields.
hamas is a terrorist organization that does not encapsulate all Palestinians. That'd be like killing everyone in the US to dispose of the KKK.
Don't threaten me with a good time
yea it'd almost be like, if the kkk was the government
Here's a more apt analogy: It'd be like killing everyone in North Korea to get Kim Jong Un and pals
"Points to the GOP"
Total war is not just an abstract political move, it's an immense suffering and deaths of dozens of thousands of civilians.
It's easy to play political mastermind from the safety and comfort of your home. People who witnessed war know full well what it entails, and they know it's not just numbers and maps and politics.
It's blood. It's broken families. It's famine. It's the destruction of everything they valued. It's PTSD for just about everyone who managed to survive.
Think twice before saying things like that. Please.
I’m simply describing the situation in Gaza for what it is, Total War. I’m not advocating for it, but I recognize that Israel is going to respond to October 7 as they see fit.
Would you rather I described it in a way that didn’t hurt your fragile sensibilities?
You claim "total war is justified". I say it's pretty much never justified.
What kind of fragile sensibilities are you talking about here?
The fact that I described the current situation as “Total war”. Seems to offend you. Should I say both sides are making a “fluffy”, would that make you feel better?
Nope, you ignored my last message.
You said, and I cite you here: "Total war on Gaza looks pretty damn justified to me."
This is total war, yes, wholeheartedly agreed here. It is not justified in any way, shape or form.
Sorry it’s been a day between posting and responding. On top of that there are a lot of tools in this thread and it hard to keep every conversation straight.
But in short Israel is a sovereign nation whose citizens were just attacked in a large scale well coordinated manner. They have every right to go after the perpetrators. If total war and the leveling of Gaza is what it takes and they have the ability to execute it then so be it.
And that's where I and most other Palestine supporters strongly disagree.
For starters, being attacked doesn't allow the country to breach the international treaties on the law of war. Civilian massacre and "leveling of Gaza" is a grave breach of the treaties and a war crime, it should not be supported and Netanyahu and Israeli military officials are waited for in Hague, where they need to give quite an explanation for what they've done (and certainly get arrested).
Second, the attack on Israel was carried out by a small militant group, to which the majority of Palestinians barely holds any relation. About 200 people were taken as PoW. Israel's response on that was unproportionate, with dozens of thousands of civilians killed, misplaced, and taken as PoWs. Regular people, people who did not attack Israel, are now finding themselves among one of the most cruel and lawless wars of the 21st century, with nobody able to protect them.
People of Palestine did not deserve this. They are civilians, and under the law of war, they should never be touched. There is a reason international community recognizes those rules, and Israel just decided to not give a damn. Israel is currently carrying more unnecessary, malicious violence and extermination than any other country on Earth.
As I said, under any circumstances, total war is not justified, and the international community has long formalized that. This conflict has shown how many people lack basic humanity to be able to universally recognize basic human rights long written in international laws and conventions.
Points to who started the war....
missed the /s?
Sucks to be on the wrong side of history. No one wants to loose their communities, property or livelihoods. However the Jews had a claim to the area going back thousands of years and they needed to go somewhere.
There were many Jewish communities across the Middle East prior to the 1940s that no longer exist anymore either. I wonder who pushed them out… do they get the same sentiment from your bleeding heart?
There have been two state solutions on the table with Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital on the table multiple times. Palestinians turned every one of them down. Instead of building their own state they will be further pushed out of Gaza. Where they go is anyones guess no one wants them, especially other Muslim states.
That's funny that you think you're on the right side of history for supporting a genocidal ethnostate.
I guess we’ll see in 50 years which nation still exists.
Looks at all of Palestine’s immediate neighbors in the Middle East who won’t even lift a finger to even admit refugees.
I think I know where I’ll put my money.
Might makes right, huh? I already know Palestine will be completely ethnically cleansed and then israel will move onto taking parts of Syria and other countries in their goal of lebensraum. That doesn't mean it's morally right.
You either didn’t read my comment from earlier in the thread or you enjoy trying to frame an argument.
I’ll post it below for you to read and educate yourself.
There have been two state solutions on the table with Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital on the table multiple times. Palestinians turned every one of them down. Instead of building their own state they will be further pushed out of Gaza. Where they go is anyones guess no one wants them, especially other Muslim states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution
TLDR: Palestine will be wiped of the map unless they choose a different path. Israel isn’t going anywhere.
The negotiations were argued in bad faith. Israel would put forth ridiculous demands and then lay the blame on Palestine for rejecting them. Why do you think Palestinians are being pushed out of Gaza and have been continually and constantly pushed out for decades? There was never a sincere effort for a two-state solution.
Nobody wants to take on many refugees all at once, it's very difficult to manage. Why do you think Britain "volunteered" Palestinian land to relocate Jews out of Europe? It wasn't out of the goodness of their heart.
No response to this of course. Don't even expect one. They are currently with their fingers in their ears yelling "LALALLALALALA"
There's literally a response just below yours, but of course taking the time to make sure you're actually right is never a strong point for you people.
I personally find it very funny that the pro-Palestinian go-to is that none of the offers Israel made for a 2 state solution were 'realistic' or 'serious' or 'good faith'. No one doubts that there were offers. Tell me, in what other scenario in all of human history do the losers of a war (that they started) get to dictate the terms of their surrender?
Bullshit, there have been multiple attempts at a settlement with regional actors who were sympathetic to the Palestinians. Palestinians turned them all down.
Not a single country in the Middle East has volunteered to take in even a token amount of refugees… Egypt used to control the Sinai and govern that region… nada, zilch, zero refugees allowed to cross into their boarders.
Nobody in the Middle East except Iran wants anything to do with the Palestinians. Iran is only happy to use them to further their regional goals.
Saudi was in the middle of negotiations with Israel before this conflict broke out.
Why is this? Because everyone has tried to negotiate a peace and the Palestinians refuse to come to terms.
Israel is waging total war on Gaza. It’s ugly and civilians will be killed. Nobody is going to stop them because the region wants an end to this conflict one way or another and no one gives a shit about Palestine.
Brutalizing Gaza and driving Hamas out is the only way this is going to be solved.
If driving out hamas is the only way this is going to be solved, why weren't things solved before the existence of hamas? Egypt and saudi arabia have negotiated and a lot of money has exchanged hands to keep them docile. Egypt is high on the list of recipients of US foreign aid, i.e. money to shut up and behave according to US interests. The US clearly favored israel in the camp david meetings and even spied on egypt for the benefit of israel during that time (https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2020/02/12/cia-secretly-bought-global-encryption-provider-built-backdoors-spied-on-100-foreign-governments):
"In the meantime, more than 100 governments around the world, possibly as many as 120, purchased and employed the backdoored equipment. China and the Soviet Union, as it was then, weren't amongst the buyers. However, Egypt was, and this apparently enabled the U.S. to monitor communications between Anwar Sadat and Cairo during the Egypt-Israel peace accord meeting at Camp David in 1978."
Why are you focusing on other countries taking on refugees? These people shouldn't be driven out of their homes to create refugees in the first place.
Israel hasn't existed for a long ass time until the last century, shouldn't that be evidence that Jewish people don't belong there by your logic?
The Jews were going to end up somewhere after WW2. Their ancestral homeland won out. They also had the backing of major Western powers.
Nations fall and nations rise, such is life. Don’t be on the wrong side of his . Jews all over the Middle East have been pushed out of their communities since Israel was founded. Sucks for them as well, once again don’t be on the wrong side of history.
Blood and soil? Rudolph Jitler shit.
No just real politik. Nations and people act in their own self interest and influence the world around them to the best of their abilities.
Facism is just stupid.
An apartheid state committing a genocide to create an ethnostate is acceptable self-interest? This isn't self-defence - particularly when Israel backed Hamas over the secular moderates to create the pretext for this. Netanyahu is getting Israelis killed by both Hamas and the IDF.
I agree - Israel and the Nazis are stupid and monstrous, which is why I condemn both. What's the material difference between the far-right, genocidal fascist ethnostates Israel and Nazi Germany as far as you're concerned?
Israel is gonna wipe out everyone who was currently there, if you don't like that you're on the wrong side of history. Understood, all hail lord Netanyahu!
You don’t have to like it. The Palestinians could have made different decisions to prevent the current conflict (like don’t support terrorist organizations who will sneak attack civilians on a holiday as your method of government).
I guess we’ll see in 50 years which nation still exists.
So if the Nazis won WWII, you'd support them? You've already made it clear you're willing to support far-right genocidal ethnostates.
I wouldn’t support the Nazis, but I’d realize they are going to act in their own self interest and influence the world around them to benefit their society to the best of their ability.
Finland realized it could not win fighting the Soviets and ceded territory for peace. I’d say it worked out well for them.
Palestinians have overplayed their hand for forty years and this latest conflict is just the consequence of their own actions.
Palestine isn't genociding itself, and they were led by secular moderates until Israel backed Hamas to create the pretext for the genocide they're now committing. They've been relegated to an open-air concentration camp as Israel kills orders of magnitude more Palestinians than Hamas kills Israelis. This is just far-right lunatics creating an ethnostate via genocide - like the Nazis.
The Nazis weren't about improving society - they wanted to kill multiple groups and suppress the rest. It's a deeply stupid ideology in addition to being monstrous.
Does your apparent "I think this monstrous bullshit is in my personal self-interest, so it's justified" principle extend to Hamas attacking Israel? What if I'm homeless hungry and horny - do I get to kill you, take your house, rape your wife and eat your kid? If not, why not?
What's the ethnic makeup of Israel? What's the ethnic makeup of Palestine? Which one is closer to the definition of an ethno state? Do words not mean anything to you?
You're granted citizenship automatically if you're Jewish and you get a free trip to go there. Being Jewish grants one special privileges. The country is based entirely on ethnicity and was established with that as a core principle. If it's not technically considered an ethnostate, it's about the closest that a country can be one without being one in that case.
Who the fuck cares about a claim from thousands of years ago? Can you even count how many Greats you would have to add to even reach your goat herder of a grandpa back when Jesus was still around?
This is just trying to revive a dead dream and we all get to suffer for it.
That's what drives me crazy about dated religions and ultra nationalism. We could have flying cars if people stopped with this shit
I don't really get the logic: is an older claim or a more recent claim to land "more valid"?
A recent claim is better. I care about the partitioning of the lands with the Sykes Picot Agreement, I don’t care about some inbred king of sandland did back in 147AD.
Wouldn't this mean that the millions of Israelis born in Israel over the last 80 years probably have the strongest claim to the land (at least the internationally recognized 1967 borders anyway)? 1916 is not particularly recent
Yeah i think a couple of Neanderthals descendants have claims that go back tens of thousands of years. do they get the same sentiment from your bleeding hearth?
Also my cousin has Etruscan blood, should he kick Italians out of Italy as he has a claim that goes back TWO thousands years and he's got nowhere to go since his wife kicked him out?
bleeding hearth
Maybe check your fireplace if it's bleeding.
Does your friend have superior weaponry and the backing of major world powers? If no then he should probably live in peace in modern unified Italy.
So those claims you talked about are just bullshit and it's just about i want the land and am stronger so I just grab it. Fair enough you could have made it clear sooner so we wouldn't all waste time pretending. While we are at it putin is also good for you isn't it?
No Putin and Hamas are cut from the same cloth. Both are aggressors.
I fully support Ukraine and hope we ship them all the weapons they ask for. I hope they regain all the territory they lost and wipe Russia from the map. But at the same time if they are not able to secure the lands they lost I hope they have sense enough to know when to compromise.
The Palestinian leadership has displayed no such common sense as of yet.
Now imagine a civil war begins in the US. Both sides get too weak. And then the Cherokee, Apache, ... receive all the military help they need from, let's say, China. And they start killing "every non Nation person" because "that was our land". Would you say that's right and that all and every white/black/Asian person deserve it?
I’ll take “Imaginary things that will never happen” for $500 Alex.
The story doesn't start on oct 7th.
But the current chapter does. Gaza would look a lot different today if the October 7th attack had not happened.
Shit it would look like a fucking paradise if they had taken one of the many two state solution deals they were offered.
So your blame is on hamas and Gaza for what Israel is doing there? Here's a question, if there are terrorists hiding under a school or who were hiding in Manhattan or Tel Aviv. Would it be justified to bomb everything like what happened in Gaza?
Well, New York is American soil, if Terrorists were hiding under a building there I hope our government can surgically remove them. I then hope that our government would glass whatever shit hole those terrorists came from.
Tel Aviv is Israelis territory, it’s response is up to their leadership and the will of populace.
...Just make sure not to pay any attention to Netanyahu's approval rating.
You apply this principle consistently and argue Hitler did nothing wrong because the German public supported his actions, right?
Hot take, but I think genocide is bad, personally.
This shit has been planned for a long time. Here's just one example of the plan being shown out in the open before october 7th: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-brandishes-map-of-israel-that-includes-west-bank-and-gaza-at-un-speech/
All they needed was a "justification" to ramp up their ethnic cleansing and genocide.
Maybe Israel shouldn't fund Hamas over secular orgs to manufacture the pretext for the genocide they're now committing in order to create an ethnostate.
Funding might be true. But do we have real evidence that it was done precisely for what you described? Did someone specific decided "let's give them money, so they would build rockets to bomb us, then invade to kill our citizens in an attack we'll be unprepared for and then have all the right to obliterate them and nobody would stop us"?
Incredibly loaded framing aside, what's your explanation for Israel backing a Jihadist group, and helping them displace moderate, secular alternatives while consistently using genocidal language and displacing Palestinians?