Barrie Ontario: 'Yes, you can get a ticket,' Cyclists slapped with hefty fine for blowing through stop sign
'Yes, you can get a ticket,' Cyclists slapped with hefty fine for blowing through stop sign
And those jurisdictions are what is colloquially known as "stupid".
It's hard not to see this as ignorance given how easy it is to look up the great safety record of these laws (i.e. right there on the Wikipedia page).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop
See the section on safety. It's safer for bicycles to yield at stop signs instead of come to a complete stop. The most dangerous part of cycling is in an intersection, and you'll spend more time in them when coming to a complete stop every time
Have you decided to change your opinion yet, since you’ve had plenty of time to read about and fix your own “stupid” though?
Considering how much stop signs are overused in North America, this is unreasonable. Either replace many stop signs with yield signs where safe to do so, or allow cyclists to pass through stop signs as if it they were yield signs. Holding momentum is important for cyclists.
I agree. I always make a judgement call when biking, and it doesn’t only benefit me. If I’m going to arrive at a stop sign before a car who will need to cross my path, then if I slow down and stop before continuing, I will take (ever so slightly) more time out of that driver’s day because of how much longer it takes me to speed up.
(Which is why I usually wave drivers through if we’re both stopped, since they can get out of my way much faster than I can get out of theirs. Sharing the road is about consideration and it goes both ways.)
While true, in the status quo, blowing through stop signs when other users have the right of way increases the probability of accidents. It puts the responsibility squarely in the person that has to decided whether to stop or not. The one that doesn't have to stop is simply going their way. If there's a monetary lapse of judgement on the cyclist's side, they become a pancake. I'm staying this as someone who regularly "Idaho-maneuvers" in certain places.
Except that data from states which permit Idaho Stops (i.e. treating a stop sign as a yield, and a stop light as a stop sign) has not shown any increase in cyclist danger. The inverse is true, which is why Idaho Stops have been expanding into other states.
That’s where “as if they were yield signs” and not “as if they weren’t there” comes into play
Noooooo.
They have those in France and it's so dangerous! There are so many collisions that happen because of the right of way at intersections.
I've driven there and it's freaking scary.
I think most European countries are designed this way. In my experience it just takes getting used to and is a bit uncomfortable, but it just feels so much more efficient, whether driving or on a bike. It feels unnecessary to have to stop at every block on a neighborhood street when there's no one around.
Cars and bicycles are two completely different things, and should have different rules governing them. A car is larger, deadlier, and takes longer to stop than a bicycle. A car going 40-50 kph is traveling with far more force, and won't be able to stop as fast as a bicycle traveling 20 kph.
It's like saying cars and planes should follow the same rules. Or even better, cars and semi trucks. There are highway speed signs that state one speed for trucks and one for everyone else. Or certain roads where trucks aren't allowed to drive on. We already have a tiered approach to motor vehicles, it should extend to bikes as well. Blanket approaches don't work in our modern world when we have cars, bikes, ebikes, escooters, etc all sharing the same space.
Cars and bicycles share the same travel surface. In order to interact safely, they need to follow the same rules. Using your example, semis still need to follow nearly all the same rules as cars. There is a base ruleset for everyone who uses a roadway (including, one must come to a complete stop at a traffic control device that directs them to do so), and only specific modifications to certain rules for additional safety for vehicles in certain classes.
Here in Saskatchewan, bicycles fall under the Traffic Safety Act if they are on public roadways. That means they can be ticketed for exceeding speed limits or disobeying traffic control devices.
If different modes interact on the same travelway, they must share the same set of rules. If they don't, you get conflicts, which means collision between vehicles, pedestrians, bicycles, and other wheeled modes of travel.
In my example the more dangerous vehicle (semi) has more restrictive rules. Should the less dangerous vehicle (bicycle) not have less restrictive rules? I'm not talking about no rules at all, but treating stop signs as a yield sign for a bike makes sense considering the shorter stopping time, slower speeds, and wider perspective (no parts of the car to potentially block vision) on bikes.
The point of stop signs is so that 1000+ kg vehicle doesn't interact with traffic, usually from a side street onto a main street, without looking first. Or to ensure there is a known pattern at a 3 or 4 way stop. You need this when the average stopping distance for a car traveling 50 kph is 35 m in dry conditions. You don't need the same safety measures with bikes because of the physics involved with a smaller, slower, faster stopping, etc bike.
Also, all of this is irrelevant to the point if we had proper bike infrastructure in cities there wouldn't be a shared road space, or not nearly as much. The infrastructure is designed with cars and truck in mind, as are the rules. If we had more separation between the two methods of travel you would have fewer issues.
Defos. Doesn't matter what you're driving, be predictable and you won't get hurt.
Semi's cause almost all fatal road accidents. I think a bigger blanket would only cause more issues
A lot of cyclists also get hit by blowing stop signs. I have seen too many people who just zip through without looking.
People driving cars should absolutely be cautious, don't get me wrong on that. That being said, right-of-way won't matter much if you're dead. All it takes is one ahole not paying attention while driving and it's game over for the cyclist. You could also use your argument for pedestrians to cross wherever and whenever they want. Pedestrians won't kill someone like a car would either, but they are also still at risk.
I don't know, I've just never understood taking that risk over saving a short amount of time. I have genuinely seen some people who have made me wonder how they survived so long.
I agree that the Idaho Stop should be implemented in more places, though. I'm pro-yeild, and anti-blowing stop signs for everyone.
Yes I agree also, blowing through stop signs is terrible regardless of method of transportation. I should have been more clear in my advocating for Idaho stops earlier.
ya, all my close calls cycling were from other bikes and powered scooters blowing stop signs. we need proper respect for right of way.
Amish buggies must follow the same laws, so do motorcycles, mopeds, golf carts, side by sides, pedal pubs etc. Bikes, especially now with E bikes making them faster, should follow the same rule set unless they are using their own bike path separate from the road.
Just stop for the signs guys, no big deal.
You're comparing apples to oranges with the vehicles though. Besides the Amish buggies, which are fairly rare, everything on that list is powered by a motor/engine of some variety except the bicycle. Look at the speed of bikes compared to any of those other vehicles, they're not anywhere nearly as fast. The only exception is ebikes, but again, this is an argument for a tiered system where there are different rules for different vehicles as they all interact differently. Ebikes are still supposed to be restricted to 32 kph and 500 W motor max in Canada, which is far slower than any car can do. If people are modifying them to go faster then that's a different issue to be addressed.
The road infrastructure and road rules are designed around cars. Instead of applying old laws not designed for them, we need different rules for bikes as the times are changing. More and more people are using bikes as a method of transportation, they're no longer leisure use only.
E bikes are quicker to accelerate, but they're not any faster. They cutoff the assistance before you get faster than 95% of people can get in their own.
If you're gonna ride your bicycle on the road, you better stop at a stop sign. Don't be an idiot.
I mean, I always yield at stop signs, but I am not likely to come to a complete stop on a bike if there is nobody to yield to. Many car drivers don't either, as any road user is already aware.
The "Idaho stop" (red as stop, stop as yield for cyclists) is a thing in several jurisdictions, and research shows it is as safe or safer that way.
Still ought to follow the laws, but there's reason to want those laws to be different.
Folks, I think with this wholesome standard-fare cars vs bikes who-dun-it rant fest, we've really arrived on Lemmy. I feel home. Thank you. ♥️
This is inherently the problem with (most) cyclists, and why motorists in general don't like them.
They want it both ways. They want to be a pedestrian when it suits them, when they want to blow stop signs, jump up onto the sidewalk, expect cars to stop for them at crosswalks, and weave through traffic at will. But they ALSO want to be a vehicle when it suits them, when they are sharing a road that doesn't have a bike lane, for example.
And they seem to think that the motorist should just KNOW when they are being one or the other.
It's frustrating and annoying. They are a vehicle. They are governed as a vehicle. Suck it up, cyclists.
I find it so tiresome hearing about how cyclists are supposedly more entitled than motorists (or the other way around, since cyclists say the same things about drivers).
Drivers routinely roll through stops, jockey for position, move erratically or dangerously, block crosswalks or bike lanes, distract themselves on their phones, get upset when mildly inconvenienced by having to underspeed behind a cyclist taking the lane for safety, etc.
No, motorists don't like them because they are different. That's it. It's someone they can place their road rage on.
If that were true, you'd expect car drivers to feel the same way about, for example, motorcycles, rollerbladers, and longboarders... Yet people don't have the same feelings as they do with cyclists.
Also since when do car drivers have any problem whatsoever applying their road rage to other car drivers? Lol.
It goes the other way too, when a cyclist is considering stop sign as a yield then motorist complains that cyclist should behave the same way as cars.
When cyclist behave are riding in the middle of the road because it's safer for them then motorist complains that they are not supposed to be there.
meanwhile 4,000 lb vehicles run stop signs in front of fucking daycares in my neighbourhood
Nobody should run them. Contact your municipality to increase enforcement until the community gets the message.
Oops! LOL
https://www.blogto.com/city/2022/09/toronto-bike-cops-caught-breaking-rules-cyclists-ticketed/
To be fair, they break rules cars are supposed to follow as well. I've seen plenty roll through stop signs, right turns at stop lights, fail to signal lane changes, etc, all without their lights on.
We need to have a better way to keep law enforcement accountable.
Everyone stops at a stop sign. Cars, buses, pedestrians, motorized wheelchairs, and bikes. This is not an issue that needs separate rules for cyclists. Perhaps they can re-evaluate that intersection, does it need a sign? If cyclists can easily coast through the intersection, the need for a stop sign is up for discussion. Perhaps a Yield sign.
My area has lights for intersections with more than 2 lanes per direction of travel, roundabouts for smaller busy roads, and most of the residential intersections don’t have signage. Stop signs are, mostly, used to slow traffic down.
I disagree. The Idaho stop is a very real law and it's been proven safe. There absolutely should be a different rule for cyclists and we already have decades of proof that it not only works but increases safety.
Also, pedestrians don't stop at stop signs currently. It's perfectly legal for them to continue without any kind of stop and I'm not aware of any place on earth that requires pedestrians to stop or has ever given a ticket for the them failing to stop.
Eh, there have been people who have gotten a jaywalking ticket in an intersection after they were hit by a car.
Not common and my city is apparently hostile to anything not on four wheels.
This coming from a city which made being homeless illegal, doesn't surprise me.
And yes, cyclists SHOULD be respectful.
The thing is if you're going to be sharing the road with other vehicles, you need to ride predictably and communicate with other drivers/riders or you're just more likely to get yourself killed. Deciding to ignore a Stop sign is not predictable behaviour.
I understand the need to obey traffic laws on a bicycle, but treating them the same as a 2+ ton projectile that can turn humans into meat paste or cause tens of thousands of dollars in damage to a structure in seconds by effortlessly adjusting your right ankle by 25° is absurd.
Fines should be proportional to the potential damage of the Infraction.
It's not about if the cyclist hit something, it's about the possibility of something hitting the bicyclist.
If a car, following the law, took its right of way through the intersection and hit a cyclist who wasn't following the law... Well it's fine to say the cyclist was at fault, but he's still been hit by a car.
Traffic laws are there to protect everyone from each other.
Except, as others have pointed out in this discussion, it's actually safer to let cyclists use stop signs as yield signs.
As a cyclist, I've seen more motorists blow through stop signs than other cyclists, and they are the ones who can kill someone.
Idaho Stops need to come to Canada. Not only have they been proven to be safer, but it makes sense in a dozen different ways.
I've sat at red lights (as a cyclist) and the light DOES NOT CHANGE unless a car is waiting at that same light. We're talking 10+ minutes. Who the hell thinks it's OK for cyclists to have to sit there indefinitely when no other cars are around, just because of some outdated laws? We need to change with the times!
As a Torontonian cyclist, according to what I see, we blow through stop signs way more than cars. Way more. Of course physically we can mostly just harm ourselves.
But yes the rules of the road have to change in this regard. The status quo is clearly car-friendly. Not only it doesn't prioritize cyclists, but it doesn't prioritize pedestrians either.
BTW, ebikes help negotiating the status quo a lot. They make stopping at stop signs trivial, as well as keeping a safe speed when riding where there's no bike lanes.
I'm east of the city, and we don't have nearly the same amount of cyclists as you do, but only very few ever cautiously ride through a stop sign. I won't lie, but I did see quite a few cyclists going through stop signs when I was in the city last weekend... not putting anyone in danger, just to save time.
I thought I read about a protest in Toronto where cyclists were stopping at EVERY stop sign as a large group, backing up traffic in an act of malicious compliance. I'd be totally down for that if crazy motorists didn't turn their rage onto me, rather than onto these outdated rules.
I agree that e-bikes can level the playing field, but the general public shouldn't need to have a powered bike to have fair rules, either.
No way man, so many vehicles don’t come to a complete stop. I see it walking, and biking around Toronto. Think right on red - the only time cars come to a complete stop in Toronto is if they’re going to run over someone (and even then that stop them).
And the way our police enforce it here is that they expect a complete foot down stop, on some stretches in Toronto that’s a complete stop every 200m. Or a complete stop on a bike lane with a T intersection where there’s no chance of a car being there.
We were lazy and didn’t bother actually writing different laws for bikes and just sort of grouped them in with cars. And then we have dickheads like TPS or Barrie PD here ticketing cyclists for rolling through a stop sign.
No one (at least effectively) thinks it’s ok to keep cyclists waiting indefinitely - they just don’t think about the cyclist experience at all. Bad intersections are windshield bias at its peak
Statistically, that's not true. A car at any speed can kill a pedestrian or cyclist. For a cyclist to kill a pedestrian, which is exceedingly rare, it would take a lot of speed and bad luck to result in a fatality. I don't think I've ever even heard of a cyclist killing a pedestrian at a stop sign.
But to be clear, I don't advocate for cyclists blowing through stops when there are pedestrians around, since that's obviously not obeying the right of way. I aim to be a defensive and respectful rider when I'm on my bike.
But I would still like to see more enforcement of stop rules being applied to motorists (and not cyclists on empty roads), since they really are responsible for the vast majority of catastrophic injury and death for pedestrians and cyclists.
At the same time, we can't ignore that far too many pedestrians put themselves at risk, so everyone has some personal responsibility here.
I'm not of a fan of the whataboutism either. Many of us are all three. Objectively a pedestrian-cyclist crash is a lot less likely to leave you with a life changing injury than a pedestrian-car crash, purely due to the massive difference in energies involved. In order to get a more accurate intuition for the expected damage, you have to think about the energy involved. That's given by the speed (squared) times the mass. A light car is about 10x heavier than a cyclist on a bike. For the same speed it has 10x the energy to impact on your bones and tissues. Therefore you should expect a lot more damage. That doesn't mean that the large number of pedestrian-cyclist near-misses isn't mentally impactful. They are and they do absolutely happen a lot. Getting scared regularly isn't healthy or fun. Ironically though, cars going quietly at 30kph don't feel as scary, yet they will easily maim pedestrians on impact, often permanently. My destroyed subtalar joint from a seemingly minor accident on a crossing can attest to that.
Ohio allows this. If the red doesn't detect your bike it you can treat it as a yield
As it should!
Stop signs should be treated as "yield" and red lights should be treated as "stop".