Bosch manager in interview: eBike over-motorization is a risk to our business, because eBikes with more than 800 Watt power will lead to much stricter regulations
Interview with Bosch e-bike boss: "EU regulation that doesn't fit the problem"
cross-posted from: https://feddit.org/post/15750762
Interview with Bosch e-bike boss: "EU regulation that doesn't fit the problem"
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I am once again asking the question: Why don't cars have built-in speed regulators?
There's constant chatter about the potential risks associated with the rise in e-bikes, but little to no mention of regulating the existing menace. You want to talk about excessive power? Look no further.
It's even harder with cars: Why are cars even allowed to go 240km/h? Yeah, there is the german autobahn, but there's no reason why a car which is registered in France should be able to go faster than the french max motorway speed limit. There is also no reason to allow cars to be able to go from 0 to 100 in x seconds. There is no use case for that, even if you try to merge into a motorway or overtake somewhere.
The drive from France to the nearest German motorway without a speed limit isn't that far, though.
You can also do track days and such, but I agree with you they don't need to be that quick
Actually, the speed should be a bit over the speed limit. What if you are driving the speed limit, but suddenly someone almost hits you? You gotta drive a bit faster.
Totally agree with you. Would like to add that we should also limit the noise that cars and motorcycles make. Many places have noise regulations but they are rarely enforced
In the EU all new cars sold after June 2024 must now have Intelligent Speed Assist: https://road-safety-charter.ec.europa.eu/resources-knowledge/media-and-press/intelligent-speed-assistance-isa-set-become-mandatory-across
Thank you for sharing, that was an interesting read. I hadn’t heard of this before.
The first two feedback options do not directly intervene but only provide warnings (first optic and if no response from the driver, a delayed acoustic/vibrating warning), which have to be as short as possible in duration to avoid potential annoyance of the driver.
This part was particularly amusing.
There's a requirement to electronically limit the speed of all new road vehicles sold in the EU since 2024. The only problem is the vast difference in highway speeds within the Schengen area.
Electronic limits are a bunch of bullshit, because they can be easily turned off.
Constructively limited top speeds would make a whole lot more sense.
Not that I don't agree with you, but to be fair, cars do require a license, they have to be registered and reguraly checked, which is not the case for a bike. In my opinion the failure here is that those should not be allowed for sale as bikes. Those are motocycle in all but name.
In Norway e-bikes are extremely strictly regulated: They need to have a power output of 250 W or less, motor output has to be linked to your pedaling movements, and the motor has to shut off completely when you reach 25 km/h. Anything more than that and you need to register it as a scooter/motorcycle. At which point you need a drivers licence, insurance, and can no longer ride it on bike paths. I was under the impression that this was an EU requirement. But maybe S-Pedelecs are treated like normal bicycles in the rest of Europe?
There's constant chatter about the potential risks associated with the rise in e-bikes, but little to no mention of regulating the existing menace. You want to talk about excessive power?
Of course this is worked on, it is an EU goal to reduce traffic deaths to zero - for example with speed limits for cars:
From the interview:
The whole industry is worried, but it's not about one company. With motors like these, we are moving further and further away from bicycles, and as an industry, we risk e-bikes being regulated by the EU. So far, e-bikes have been treated the same as bicycles in the EU. And we as the ZIV want to protect this status. To achieve this, we need to clarify the gray areas in regulation that define what is and what is not a bicycle. And two values are important here: performance and the ratio between rider power and motor power.
In this respect, DJI achieves values with the Avinox motor with 1000 watts and 800 percent muscle gain that did not exist before.
As I said, it's not just about one specific brand. It's about everyone pushing the performance values upwards. And the EU could look at this and ask: What are you actually doing here with your Newton meter power assistance factor race? Unlike the e-bike, the S-pedelec with a cut-off speed of 45 km/h is considered a moped in the L1 class and is subject to type approval. The type approval defines the assistance factor 4 for the S-pedelec.
And now the e-bike manufacturers are launching e-bikes that do not require type approval with a factor of 8 on the market.
Note that there is some confusing terminology: "eBike" as a common (but wrong) term means a bicycle with assistance electric power which is limited to 25 km/h in speed. The proper term for this is "Pedelec". In difference to this, "S-Pedelec" means a light motorcycle which in Germany can go with up to 45 km/h, needs insurance, license plate, strict technical certification, helmet - and cannot, of course, use bicycle paths and cycle lanes.
> and cannot, of course, use bicycle paths and cycle lanes.
In town, but outside it's allowed unless is explicitly forbidden.
I don't understand how anyone in their clear mind could think that treating electric mopeds like bicycles was a good idea in the first place.
as an american, this doesn't directly affect me, but I am concerned that by the time I can afford to buy a good high power ebike, they might not exist anymore. I'd like it to not take all day just to cross town.
I agree with the idea that a better solution is to just apply a speed limit to bike lanes.
It'll exist, but you'll need a motorcycle license to drive it, and it'll be only on the street.
And that will be a good thing.
Related podcast: Why I'm Ebike-pilled (with American Fietser) - YouTube (The Urbanist Agenda Podcast). They get a bit into the problem of producers trying to sell more "pseudo-motorcycle" vehicles and how the arms race and regulation race work out.
I have listened to this episode as well, it's good
Is there a text version available? I don't have all day.
Here's a non-YouTube version: https://podscan.fm/podcasts/the-urbanist-agenda/episodes/why-im-ebike-pilled-with-american-fietser it may have a nicer transcript (probably automatic), but I think you need an account to read it all.
There's the official YouTube auto-generated transcript, but I'm not pasting that here.
There's a whole class of electric vehicles being held back by regulation. We can slap electro motors on wheels and bicycles are not the only vehicles you can build with that tech. Many EU countries are e.g. banning throttles on eBikes, but why are we forcing all those delivery drivers to pedal the whole day? Just give them a gas throttle. For many eBikes uses it really doesn't make sense to include the whole bicycle complexity of gears, chains, shifting and so on. Just give them a motor and a throttle.
Killing the eBike with additional rules, insurance, mandatory inspections and so on would be absolutely idiotic and a good business model for insurances, car companies and so on, so I'm really afraid that this could happen
We actually need to end the "gig worker" business model where they're racing around all day and reckless driving translates to more money.
The same way that limiting the work hours of truck drivers protects them and others. Without these restrictions, companies would simply demand even longer hours for less money.
There's a whole class of electric vehicles being held back by regulation.
Do you know that there is a reason for the regulations on light motorcycles, mopeds, mofas, Vespas, scooters and however you name them? It's the number of fatal traffic accidents. And yes, there are probably over two dozens of these motorized vehicle classes which originally started with the idea of an "bicycle with a bit of motor" such as mopeds and mofas.
We want to reduce traffic and oil consumption and can't figure why people buy larger vehicles in North America?
number of fatal traffic accidents
Yeah, the issue isn't the light motorcycles/mopeds/etc....
So dude is right, a whole class of vehicle is being being held back by regulation, and the premise/reason is ridiculous for a society that would like to see less cars on the road.
I really can't see this in the traffic accident statistics. Yes, there are a lot of motorcycle accidents, but if you look deeper into them, those are in most cases "real" motorcycles and not those slower variants. And if you take a look at those eScooters, most accidents here are people driving those rental scooters while drunk. That's a problem, but that's also a problem you won't solve by regulating the dude going to the train station in the morning.
There’s a whole class of electric vehicles being held back by regulation. We can slap electro motors on wheels and bicycles are not the only vehicles you can build with that tech. Many EU countries are e.g. banning throttles on eBikes, but why are we forcing all those delivery drivers to pedal the whole day?
Fine by me, just say them to obtain a driver's license and insurance for a scooter, since basicaly it is what they would drive. Or drop the need of the license for the scooters and light bike.
The point is that a ebike with a throttles is basically a scooter (or bike) and then it is a different things, with differnt rules.
But is there really a fundamental difference? If I build a throttle on my bicycle, it still has the same breaks, the same lights, the same driver, the same max speed. The only difference is that I do not have to pedal, everything else is exactly the same. There are countries where it is totally legal to do this and others where you get quite harsh fines. There is no reason for it to be a different thing.
The problem is infrastructure.
We have pavement for trucks/cars at >30km/h... We have pavement for pedestrians <5km/h
What we lack is the dedicated pavement for the stuff in between.
Regulating these light-motorized devices to be banned on the other two has been the real issue of acceptance and adoption of the tech.
There’s a whole class of electric vehicles being held back by regulation. We can slap electro motors on wheels and bicycles are not the only vehicles you can build with that tech. Many EU countries are e.g. banning throttles on eBikes, but why are we forcing all those delivery drivers to pedal the whole day? Just give them a gas throttle. For many eBikes uses it really doesn’t make sense to include the whole bicycle complexity of gears, chains, shifting and so on. Just give them a motor and a throttle.
Then they could simply buy a small bike, with all the attached rules, like driver's license and so on.
The point is that a ebike and a bike are two separated things that follow different rules.
Killing the eBike with additional rules, insurance, mandatory inspections and so on would be absolutely idiotic and a good business model for insurances, car companies and so on, so I’m really afraid that this could happen
Rules are imposed as consequences.
The problem is that a licence is expensive as fuck here in Germany. If I wanted to upgrade my drivers licence to those 125 motorcycles, that will be around 800€. A full motorcycle licence is several thousands of Euros. There are also age limits in place. So a young person can just hop on a bicycle with a motor for free or "simply buy a small bike" with costs of several thousands of Euros. It would make sense if we bring the cost of thoses licences down.
The point is that a ebike and a bike are two separated things that follow different rules.
Yeah and that is exactly what I wanted to say: Why is a motor assisted thing that can go 25km/h a different thing from a motor assisted thing that can go 25km/h? I'm not talking about full motorcycles, but to give you an exemple: I own an eBike. There is a throttle available that would let me cruise at up to 25km/h without pedaling. That is totally illegal to install here, because that would make it a legally totally different thing and that would e.g. also prevent me from using my current brakes or to install the current tires. Which makes no sense - the risks are the same, brakes and tires are of course normal bicycling components which are totally fine to use at 25km/h, but the regulation is crap.
Yeah, but those consequences are a direct result of poor infrastructure to facilitate the technology. Not the technology itself.
The consequences are more about these light motorized vehicles interacting with either cars/trucks meant to go faster and be larger, or interacting with pedestrians or non-motorized devices.
If they had their own dedicated pavement like the other two, most(not all) of those 'consequences' disappear.
What's fascinating for me is that Copenhagen is arguably the most bike-friendly city in Europe, and probably in the world - and very few people use e-bikes there! Why is this? Can somebody who lives there explain why?
Copenhagener here. People do use eBikes in Copenhagen, but I guess it depends on what you consider "very few". My guesstimate would be that around one in five bikes is electric. As to why not more bikes are electric, Copenhagen - and Denmark in general - is very flat, so eBikes are more so used for:
You can get a well-working used bike for very cheap. New e-bikes tend to be pricey, used e bikes are often still pricey or come with caveats.
Caveats such as "they'll get stolen and require more money to replace"
Amsterdam would like a word.
In many surveys on bike usage and bike friendlyness, Amsterdam is a strong second after Copenhagen.
LIES! They just don't want us to have electric motorcycles.
And to put the power value of 800 Watt in relation: An average human is unlikely to go with more than 150 Watt over a sustained period. If you put this into this web computer:
http://kreuzotter.de/deutsch/speed.htm
http://kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm
you get a speed of 27 km/h for a road bike. If you put 800 Watt in for such a bike, you get a speed of 49 km/h (which in Germany is the general inside-village speed limit which is anachronistically high, and is slowly being replaced by 30 km/h where you have bicycles, pedestrisns, or schools).
That also means that an e-bike with 800 Watt power is actually a light motorcycle, with all the associated risks.
Then again, if a car with 200'000 Watts of power rolls through the same 30 km/h zone no one cares. So why should we care about bicycles?
Because we don't fall for whataboutism?
It's no question that car speeds in cities are going down - and need to go down for safety. And that's no reason at all to make e-bikes significantly faster and make things less safe.
And by the way: Further reducing the speed limits for cars, and making more space for normal bikes, including dedicated bike roads, would achieve exactly what most people which argue for higher e-bike speed limits presumably want: You get much faster to your destination. Again, the European bicycle capitals like Copenhagen, Amsterdam and Paris show how it is done.
While I don't think high-wattage e-bike motors are necessarily defensible, where you get mileage out of a higher wattage motor on an e-bike is when going uphill. These motors are already legally required to stop outputting at 25 km/h, and going 25 km/h uphill requires quite a lot of energy to do.