TRUE communism!

Tankies <---> Liberals. Same thing, different imperial branding.

I expect some spicy takes in the comments soon...

I'm popping my popcorn, I'll be back later 🍿
- View the post locally.

The good old “revolutionary state capitalist” Often comes with some nice totalitarianism and atrocities sprinkled in.

Oppress, exploit, and kill the masses for the benefit of the masses!

Man hexbear is pissed and just can't help but defend their lust for authoritarians. Then ask for left unity when we won't want to be with people who uncritically support China and North Korea.

Maybe someday hexbear will learn better but today isn't that day.

They got so upset some of them resorted to ableism. Just astounding stuff.
- I've seen them using ableist slurs, i try to report them when they do.
  Such radical leftists they just use disabilities as insults.
A good communist is suspicious of all leaders. Because nobody fucks the working class like leaders
- Well said!
- Distrusting the vanguard is counterrevolutionary

Holy Jesus am I glad my new account is on an instance that defederated the tankie triad. Looking at this thread without logging in is something else.

This happens like clockwork whenever a meme makes fun of authcoms from a typical anarchist perspective. Always! You should see the 1000-comment salt mines of the very first such post I made.
- It's too bad you have absolutely zero personal control over who db0 federates with!
I kind of miss them. Seeing their unhinged political opinions made me feel normalish.

Well, that was quite entertaining.

I understand that this is an anarchist comm, so you're free to post whatever you want, but I don't think it's productive to take a stance that fundamentally rests on misrepresenting what you're critiquing. Since you invoked my username in one of your comments here, I'd figure I'd give the Marxist stance its fair representation.

First, there is no such thing as "true communism." The obsession over purity in politics is a result of dogmatism and book workship.

Secondly, for Marxists, the stance isn't that you "do a state" and then "stop doing the state." For Marxists, not just Marxist-Leninists, the state is purely a body that resolves class contradictions through class oppression. It isn't hierarchy, and it isn't organization. Communism in the marxist conception, as a stateless society, is stateless in that once all property is collectively owned and planned, there is no class distinction. Administration remains, and is not to whither, as that's a necessary product of mass, industrialized production.

Taking that into account, the state can only disappear if all class disappears, and class cannot be abolished until all global production is collectivized. There has never been that point, you cannot have communism in one country. You can be socialist, in that public property can be the principle aspect of the economy and the state can be proletarian in character, but the state can never whither until all states are socialist, interconnected, and borders fading away into one democratic system.

Socialist countries like the PRC do rely on commodity production to engage with the global economy, as they must for the time being. They can't achieve a global system as one single country. As long as the state holds control of the large firms and key industries, and resolves class contradictions in the favor of the proletariat and against the bourgeoisie, then as the economy develops and grows it will continue to take on an increasingly socialized character. You cannot "declare socialized production" with the stroke of a pen, it's something that must arise from development. That doesn't mean the character of an economy that is dominated by public ownership is capitalist, either, just that it is on the "socialist road," ie it is socialist, and working its way to higher levels of socialization until communism is achieved.

This is all starkly different from the anarchist position, that we can develop from the outset a decentralized, horizontalist society. I'm not going to debatelord here, this is an anarchist comm, but if you're going to misrepresent the views of Marxists, then I feel you're doing a disservice by making anarchists less prepared to engage in productive conversation with Marxists.

That doesn't mean the character of an economy that is dominated by public ownership is capitalist, either, just that it is on the "socialist road," ie it is socialist, and working its way to higher levels of socialization until communism is achieved.
This is the crux of the disagreement between anarchists and MLs. I would argue that state ownership - if the state does not adequately represent the will of the people - is not public ownership. A hierarchical state with a flawed and bureaucratic democracy that is prone to corruption inevitably creates and maintains a class of bureaucrats with social, political, and economic privilege. The state - in order to preserve itself - maintains a monopoly on collective ownership, preventing workers from organizing on their own terms.
This is what anarchists mean when they call something "state capitalist." They are arguing that the state itself is a private entity pretending to represent the will of the people.
- I'd say the real crux of the argument is in full centralization and collectivization, or full horizontalism and decentralization. The endpoints are different, so the means are different.
  Either way, I don't agree that administrators represent a class. Public property is not bourgeois property, it doesn't exist in the M-C-M' circuit of production, it's collective and planned. Even if there's administration, it's a physical, real thing. There will be flaws, there will be issues, but to let perfect be the enemy of progress is an issue. It's less about some metaphysical "will of the workers" and more about material relationships to the means of production and the sublimation of property.
  Secondly, the state doesn't "preserve itself," at least the Marxist conception of the state. The state isn't a class, it's a representative of a class, and when all property has been sublimated, there is no class, and no state. There still exists administration, but not special bodies of armed men to oppress other classes, as there are no classes to oppress.
It feels a bit disingenuous to hear the following:
to engage in productive conversation with Marxists.
I mean I got your point the other day, that I shouldn't necessarrily argue about Communistic dogma without reading all the literature, but I had to fight tooth and nail to get to that point and not just be waved away as a bad faith actor. So I was already working hard just to be told to go and read up.
OP is using the same intensity hammer you guys got going on over there. Is it fair?
- I don't remember having this convo with you, so I don't have any reference for that convo. OP is misrepresenting the Marxist stance. It's one thing to critique the genuine positions Marxists have, it's another entirely to invent a strawman to argue against. The intensity of the argument isn't the problem, the illegitimacy of the argument is.

ITT: red fash pissed anarchists got wise and ain't gonna do their dirty work anymore. Figure it out.

The comments are going to be normal.

Marxism-Leninism is the ideology of the factory owner.

This is me playing Tropico when I'm just trying to have a stable economy.

And of course here's Hexbear posting about how they hate this place after they came here breaking the rules of our instance.

https://hexbear.net/comment/6307751 https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/48342361

Be warned @db0 they're insulting you in there, because they're such good, moral, and just socialists. Also mocking other users in here like @masquenox for not satisfying their debate bro tactics.

And here's them admitting to lurking on the thread to Gotcha! and leap onto users.

https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/48132283/19880859

Hexbear, the totally innocent instance!

As is tradition. I don't care though. They're well known to constantly lie and misrepresent people they hate in their own comms. So long as they don't come and shit in here.
- Fair enough. If the hexbear defed is ever for a vote, I'd probably vote yes.

https://eternityinview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/22te8q.gif?w=240

- That's the main premise of anarchism
- Getting along with authoritarians is how leftists get shot. History has proven that.

You all act like lemmy ML and lemmygrad are the worst, and clowns of fedi, but you tend to ignore fact, that without them, there would be empty hole in our hearts, we would be unable to fill alone.

remember to love your local ML user, they are folks too

In the delths of their souls, they are little beautifull redaf butterflies ready to show their true shape and colors, they only need a bit of warm