I mean, let's not underestimate social phobias, but...
I mean, let's not underestimate social phobias, but...
That's how collective action works, yes.
Who is electing your government? Who is feeding the corporations by buying their products? If you think your three friends not caring, and my three friends not caring, and OP's three friends not caring is all inconsequential and there's no point in changing their minds, then how do you envision change happening? That is a geniune question; do you actually have a plan of action, or is it just "the corporations and governments are the ones who have to do something"?
Like the saying goes, "no individual drop of rain sees themselves as responsible for the flood", or something along those lines.
Who is electing your government?
Not me or my three friends, or any of their three friends, or any person who isn't worth at least 11 figures.
If you think your three friends not caring, and my three friends not caring, and OP’s three friends not caring is all inconsequential and there’s no point in changing their minds, then how do you envision change happening?
Material conditions compress to the point that people begin risking their lives and livelihoods for the sack of access to physical necessities. The institutions that subsist on a stable, pliant public begin to fail as more and more economic surplus gets plowed into law enforcement. Food shortage and riots, combined with public hostility towards energy companies, make working in the fossil fuel sector too dangerous compared to the money it brings in. Natural disasters do enough damage to domestic infrastructure that generating and transporting fossil fuels cannot continue at the same rate.
Like the saying goes, “no individual drop of rain sees themselves as responsible for the flood”, or something along those lines.
Floods don't happen because a large number of water drops decide to spontaneously leap over the side of the river bank. You need the terrain to change. You need a lot more water or a sudden compression of space all at once.
Without that, the current keeps all the little droplets moving in the same direction.
Now, unlike water droplets, individuals can be forces of radical change. But they need to be prepared to take radical action. Telling your friends "have you heard about this thing called climate change" isn't going to cut it. Telling them "have you heard about this movie How To Blow Up a Pipeline" isn't going to cut it. Telling them that you're decamping from society to form a guerrilla chapter of Greenpeace is a start, assuming you don't think any of your friends will rat you out to the police.
But even then... its three droplets against hundreds of thousands moving in the other direction. And all the individual droplets know that.
I lov ethe large open grass field in this one. Reall makes me imagine how cool and beautiful the world could be.
I do wish we could have grown up discussions about climate change instead of this sort of thing. Governments and large industrial and commercial organisations are overwhelmingly more responsible for climate change than individuals like you and me. We individuals could not be more concerned about climate change already. Everyone wants to pollute less and live more sustainable lives. Our bins have multiplied and we learnt to comply with that. Plastic straws and bags went away and we learnt to comply with that. A lot of us are driving electric cars now or taking public transport and cycling wherever possible. Cities declared clean air zones so only the least polluting vehicles were allowed in them and we're learning to comply with that. There's all sorts of taxes on vehicles that pollute too and we've learnt to comply with that.
Meanwhile manufacturers pollute our rivers and skies and we're all finding out how full of microplastics we are because of them too. How about that self righteous finger spending some more time pointing at them than at us eh? It's just annoying how it's always the end users who gets the blame for not doing enough about climate change.
And while I'm at it and no one is going to read this anyway how about someone with a brain actually spends some time on the branding side of "Climate Change". It's better than "Global Warming" because at least that reduced the amount of people denying there's a problem every flipping winter but it's still dumb. If you want people to understand the urgency of something you have to convey it in the language you use. Called it "Planet Cancer" or "Climate Apocalypse" or "Earth Burn". Anything would be better than "Climate Change" which conveys about as much urgency as a hedge that needs trimming at some point.
(Edit: Looking at the guidelines for this magazine I can see how this post may be a little too negative. If it is I totally understand it getting removed.)
Governments and large industrial and commercial organisations are overwhelmingly more responsible for climate change than individuals like you and me
Right, but those governments and commercial organizations are supported by individuals like you and me; they do not exist in a vacuum. It doesn't take a long conversation with an average person to realize they do not want to make the necessary changes to their life (either directly, or indirectly through significant change in the system) to fix the problem.
If most people were actually in favour of strong action to make significant change, then most democratic governments would be more in favour of more significant action as well, because at the end of the day most of them just want to be elected. But even in countries with a parliamentary system and multiple parties, greens barely have any power, and people keep choosing governments that either do nothing, or just the bare minimum.
For a small example of what I mean, just look how many people go out of their way to show up on vegan/vegetarian threads to talk about how much they love meat and won't stop eating it - despite the fact it's one of the largest contributors to climate change. And this is on Lemmy too, which is a lot more left leaning than the average social media platform, and even more than the real world. Then add in how many people are pro-car, especially gas, or how many people are addicted consumerists and can't stop buying things they don't need in plastic packaging; and for some more sprinkles you can also add all the "environmentalists" who campaign in favour of shutting down nuclear plants despite the fact that a) it's the second safest energy source b) even with nuclear, by 2026 fossil fuels will still be responsible for over 50% of energy production.
If anyone wants to be a grown up and have a grown up discussion, then they need to stop shifting blame around and acting like governments exist in a vacuum and corporations aren't selling anything.
If Coke decided to stop producing plastic bottles then Pepsi would up their production and their profits would skyrocket; if a government had the balls to issue laws about plastic reduction that would stop them from producing them, they would almost certainly lose the next election and there might be protests and riots; but if people just stopped buying soft drinks in plastic bottles, Coke and Pepsi would both stop producing them regardless of what the government does.
If anyone wants to be a grown up and have a grown up discussion, then they need to stop shifting blame around and acting like governments exist in a vacuum and corporations aren't selling anything.
Exactly. Thank you.
It isn't shifting blame to talk about the biggest contributors to the problem. I don't understand why people always feel the need to pretend like we're saying "hey guys, don't take any personal responsibility. Its not our fault!"
People talk about it because what else are we supposed to do? I don't eat meat. I don't drive a car. I'm sure its true for a decent number of other people. But how many more concessions do individuals have to make? How will we control what other individuals do? We can't. Clearly. Like the example you gave about the people who come to vegan threads. How am I supposed to change their minds? How are any of us? There needs to be real systemic changes that directly affect the corporations and entities responsible for this, as well as us.
Yes, people love cars. Is it because they are addicted consumerists? Yes. But also because of a concerted and incredibly successful effort on behalf of automobile and fossil fuel corporations to lobby for car based infrastructure, and to spread propaganda that would inevitably lead to cars being seen as symbols of freedom.
People consume meat and dairy by the truckloads. But, again, how many campaigns were led by the companies producing this food to overblow its health benefits? Got Milk?
Do we place all the blame on the addict and none on the dealer? Especially when the dealer has more power than anyone else on the planet?
So what do we do then? Say nothing? Don't complain? Just hope that someday people will just decide we are right? That they will undo literal decades of brainwashing and complacency because we believe in the power of personal responsibility?
Can't we just talk shit about the horrible disgusting shit the corporations have done and will doubtlessly continue to do, without someone assuming we just want to laze around, buy thing, and leave the problem to solve itself?
Remember kids, if you don't talk to your friends about climate change, the world will die. It's all on you to fix it, so turn off yhe AC and never drive a car and don't ask about how much corporations are doing to help or hurt.
guys, we will not enforce laws to combat climate change, we don't want to impact corporate profits... so please just tell your friends to be less wasteful while corporations dump their muck in your waters and smoke in your air.
please buy more cars though because we won't do much about public transit either. just let the billionaires have their jets and their yachts ok? they don't have much. but if you shower for 6 minutes this climate is on you.
Unless your friends are all billionaires, talking to them about it wouldn't have changed anything.
Many of the people on the ground are willing to listen and do what they can.
So let’s talk about it with the capitalists and the only options they put out in order to wreck the environment for $$. The real culprits creating mass production of plastic, unwilling to do anything unless it involves a far more expensive legal case than any one individual who’s willing to take a paper straw could afford.
Then talk about discomfort.
This is why you talk to people - ordinary people - and convince them to (1) buy less plastic garbage (2) vote for restrictions on plastic garbage.
And then the people you talk to talk to other people and convince them.
And then those other people talk to still other people.
And eventually you have a critical mass. And politicians listen to them when they demand changes in the laws. And corporations have less money because enough people are boycotting their products so it's harder for them to hire lobbyists and bribe politicians.
And all this starts with you talking to people.
This has already happened. Coca Cola refused to change from plastic bottles. Even at the face of being told there was going to be a plastic ban. By countries. Who did talk to everyone, and took a poll and agreed on it.
And then trump happened.
The discontinuation of asbestoes and lead in oil was not removed just cuz someone went around and talked to the customers to stop driving cars until the big bad capitalists listened. They removed toxins out of paint for children’s clothing and toys. This was not from going around and just talking to just the customers. DuPont certainly didn’t stop pouring pfoas into the world’s water simply because customers were smart enough to not want it anymore.
These all required lawyers.