This is such an insightful way to articulate the issue. The conversation mostly revolves around individuals ("men are bad"). This is one of the few times that men are talked about in a way that acknowledges the system at play, that they are a product of an environment and society that has shaped them a certain way.
I've lost the podcast source that talked about "there is no good way to be a man currently". Even for someone who wants to be a better man, there aren't role models or celebrations of " good manliness". There's no positive road map, only a list of "don'ts" and stereotypes to avoid.
Any individual who make blanket comments about whole sections of society will loose my respect pretty quickly.
Substitute women, blacks, Asians, Latinos, the Dutch, and just about every other subsection for the word “male” in that statement and this thread would be having a completely different conversation.
For several years I hated women because subconsciously I was angry that they are allowed to express their femininity and I'm not. Now that I've matured I hate the system that keeps me oppressed. I think if "alpha males" stopped taking out their anger on women and instead on the capitalist class we would start seeing some true progress.
[rant (with memes!)]
This is a particularly sore spot for me. I was an incel in the 1980s, long before the term incel was coined, and I was odd and a misfit, and fit nicely in this pile...
alleged link << I'm still new to Lemmy-linking.... and my inability to manage my own teenage libido figured into my suicidality then. Society's failure to do better after another thirty-five years figures into my suicidality now.
To be fair, I suffer from major depression, largely tied into a childhood of neglect (I was a stereotypical latchkey kid) but then since the eighties, US society has required all adults to work full time, and everyone's parents were exhausted and didn't have much time or inclination to parent... and it's only getting progressively worse. So I'm thinking this is intergenerational dysfunction and mental illness. Madness takes its toll.
One of the things that kept me going in my twenties was the hope things would get better for future generations, but instead the US opted for abstinence-only sex ed, which is still (in 2024) mandated in twenty six states, and pushes some really hard Christian stereotypes, e.g. that sex is transactional, men are obligate providers and women have no value other than their virginity and capacity to bear kids (in case you want to know what J. D. Vance' rhetoric is all about.)
In contrast, only three states (the west coast) mandate comprehensive sex ed, which talks about contraception in a positive way, but it doesn't (officially) talk about consent, boundaries, the patriarchy, the slut-shaming epidemic and so on. If you're a teen, an incel, or know one, or otherwise want some serious sex and relating to other humans in a functional way info, check out Planned Parenthood, who has materials (and I believe they're free). Despite what Jon Kyl said -- #NotIntendedToBeAFactualStatement -- Planned Parenthood spends more on their educational materials than they do on abortions, so go get some!
For me, I got lucky. At twenty five, I figured I might be able to recover my way into society, and joined a random AA meeting which had pamphlets about local meetings for other recovery and 12-step meetings. I found my way to CoDependents Anonymous and through a coincidence segued my way into the kink community. In Choke Chuck Palahniuk gets into a slightly different path which is getting into the Sex and Love Addicts community, where peers are slightly too eager to fall off the wagon with each other. This is as dysfunctional as hate-fucking, but hey, we are already truly gone fishing crazy in a society that is also dysfunctional.
Even in the early 1990s, when we were still just trading copypasta on Usenet and Wikipedia was still a WiP, it was clear then it was a bad idea to leave all our young men sexually frustrated, pretend like it's not a problem and then try to teach them integral calculus. It wasn't the era of suicide terrorists (lonely, angry young men in the Middle East) and it wasn't yet the age of rampage shooters (lonely, angry young men in the US). But we did have a run of spree killers, and Ted Kaczynski, Timothy McVeigh, and Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. Lonely and sexually frustrated to the last.
To be fair, the US Armed Forces really likes lonely, angry sexually frustrated young men. This is their primary tap for recruits, and until recently, we've been fighting the International War on Terror.
And an awful lot of them, especially those who never figure out how to relate to
womenanyone trickle their way into the many alt-right factions, not just incels but the alpha male community, the seduction community, gamergaters, MGTOW, the manosphere, militias, 4Chan/b and so on. Piles and piles of guys (and some gals) who are losers, and they know it. In a shit world that dealt them a shit hand, and do a sine-wave dance between wanting to fade out and wanting to watch the world burn. I know the steps to this jig.Connected ones go into law enforcement.
Essentially, US culture has created this giant pool of Immorten Joe's war boys, all looking to be witnessed all shiny and chrome into Valhalla. And they are all voting for Trump in 2024 and are eager to join Röhm's Sturmabteilung as soon as a recruiter tells them to stand back and stand by.
I don't know what the solution is, and I've put a lot of thought into it. The US hates its teens. It seems to be a fixed action pattern (an instinct) to lock our adolescent women up and to evict our adolescent men, once they respectively start showing signs of puberty. I wonder if it's related to those gorilla species that evict their adolescent females during their first estrus, but then welcome strange females.
Regardless, it's much the way our administrators side with bullies over their victims when they can (an affect of dominance hierarchy, the thing that drives us to worship athletes and sports stars). In my old age, I wonder if we're just driven to rationalize obeying instincts rather than recognizing that an advance society sometimes requires non-intuitive solutions.
We need to find a way to actually respect our teens while they're still in that threshold between cute kid and responsible adult. Just as we need to find a way to actually respect folks that are not simultaneously white, Christian, male and rich enough to have a stock portfolio. If we don't, it'll kill us.
In the meantime, Millennials are having few kids, and Zoomers, fewer still. After the anti-abortion thing, they're just not even bothering to date, and feel undriven to do so since there's little to no hope for the future.
During the German Reich, when the population rate imploded, they just rounded up pretty young German women who fit the master race mold and required them to serve in the Leibensborn program, as breeding slaves for the Schutzstaffel what inspired Margaret Atwood's handmaid program in A Handmaid's Tale. And considering J. D. Vance's obsession about childless women whether teachers or cat-ladies, this sounds like a thing he'd be happy to spearhead once the Project 2025 agenda sends the US into one-party autocracy.
I suspect there is some undiscovered sociological magic we might be able to use to change the way we interact with power hierarchy and in the meantime give our teens more guidance and less constraint. But if we don't, it's a problem that will resolve itself within the next century (more or less). In the meantime, when see Eleanor Rigby or Father McKensie lost and forgotten in their solitude, a check in and a friendly pint (or ice cream cone) might be in order.
[/rant]
As a woman, this seems universal to me. Not a gendered issue. More a social issue.
Men grow up to have whatever habits worked well for them when they were boys.
Tolerate dishonesty in boys? They'll be dishonest as men.
Encourage aggression in boys? They'll be aggressive as men.
Oblige pickiness in boys? They'll be picky as men.
This is inevitably true of women too, though girls tend to push different boundaries than boys.
Reward emotional manipulation in girls? They'll be emotionally manipulative as women. (Boys do this too, but they're often not as subtle about it, get called out, and switch to anger instead)
So... ok, look... I know this comment may be nuked into oblivion, but I'm just a guy (closer to agender in terms of how I identify, but try explaining that to my fellow countrypeople... ) attracted to women, who's had to deal with a Standard Eastern European male-focused upbringing and am now open and willing to undo that damage.
To get to my point, from the perspective I've detailed above, this is too vague to offer any clarity related to the specific problem and/or any ideal solutions.
In my opinion, while I do agree that keeping a finger pointed at the problem is a must in order to avoid it slipping from the list of things to solve moving forward, just pointing the finger and letting others figure it out is not. This is part of the very problem we're trying to address, we all (yes, all, including myself) want people who identify as and own "man" as a part of their identity to grow and become healthier as members of this species, yet most material just says "men are toxic" and that's it. There is no example offered, there is no list of things to be addressed, and, to be very honest, these feel like they're coming from a place of hurt and not with an intent to teach, fix or help fix.
TRIGGER WARNING: the paragraph below contains a trauma joke, said joke exists solely to establish ownership of my trauma and neuter it of its power. I do not mean to offend anyone or minimise any traumatic experiences.
Personal anecdote, I could say the exact same thing as the OC about every one of my exes, all women, were I to allow myself to fall into the trap of resentment. Hell, I'm literally missing SA to get the Abuse Bingo.
The OC means nothing to me (no offence intended, I'm referring strictly to what message I can gleam from it), as I'm sure it would mean nothing to the many people I know who identify as men and are actively trying to redefine what that means for the benefit of themselves and those around them. At best, it reinforces the idea that "The Right tries to sell me misogyny and brain pills, The Left calls me an asshole," at worst it actively pushes people away from the threshold of change, and, in my opinion, neither option is of any benefit. Why not offer some clarifying details alongside it? Or even learning material if you know of any?
Again, mean no offence to anyone, shit's as confusing as can be to me and I'm honestly coming from a place of openness and willingness to do better. And, yeah, I know I'm essentially talking to a screenshot from Twitter, but, like... you get it.
It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society
I'd say the game was definitely rigged from the start, but perhaps not just in the way men are raised and socialised.
If you make a joke about the inadequacy of men, you're a bold and insightful person. If you make a joke about the inadequacy of women, you're a misogynistic pig.
Also, remember gents, you should be ok with automatically being considered a threat, because everyone knows men only think about one thing (this is technically true, normally it's "how the feck do I pay my rent this month, I just spent all my money on <insert hobby keeping you sane here>").
I'd agree that men are definitely not raised and socialised for that kind of system, but then again who wants to be?
Am man.
I enjoy living alone.
I enjoy owning my house and keeping it clean and maintained.
I enjoy cooking at a pretty high level.
I don't particularly enjoy doing my laundry, but it doesn't hinder me.
I do not enjoy yardwork, so I outsource it to a landscaper.
I enjoyed being a single dad.
I enjoy watching my daughter making her way in the world.
I enjoy it when my daughter calls me to regale me with tales of her life. I enjoy it even more when she calls me for advice.
I enjoy stability.
I enjoy the silence.
I enjoy the autonomy.
I'm pretty boring.
Age has definitely begun to take its toll on my youthful looks, especially as all my remaining teeth seem to be rebelling all at once.
I do not adapt well to changes in my daily routine or my domestic environment.
I save money. I don't much spend it.
But I enjoy traveling whenever I feel like it to wherever I feel like to see whichever friends I please.
I do not own a bidet or an electric kettle, just a dystopian stovetop kettle.
Life has repeatedly, loudly, aggressively taught me that all of this is woefully insufficient.
I am not a desirable adult.
Please, take the bear and leave me be.
As a guy who had a hard time finding a video game loving girlfriend, I understand the sentiment.
As a man I have to agree, we're fucking spoiled, but in the worst way possible. It's not just that we allow men to be pigs and monsters, society expects it of us as kids, and if we don't behave like it, we get called weird and gay and pushed aside as freaks. In my childhood it was very much be shit or be treated like shit. It really fucked my confidence and effectively ruined 90% of interactions with women, as I became to scared to even look one in the eyes, not wanting to be seen as a threat again for breathing the same air. As many men, it's a miracle I found someone (or rather I was lucky enough to have a good friend that would introduce me) and thank fucking god, because I was slowly turning into an incel... Now I actually get to be a functional member of society and make someone happy.
It always triggers me a bit when I complain about me not having showered/shaved/groomed my self yet and a women tells me "you don't have to, you're a man". I understand your daily struggle and injustice as a women and that you have it much worse, but what am I to do? Cut off my dick? Shrivel up and die? Maybe then I can become a vile enough rotting lump of shit to be a "REAL MAN".
Yes, and also not incentivized as adults to change, shitty toxic alpa-bs traits often lead to a better financial status, and what is somehow even worse, to a better social status bcs we are meant to adore & respect such individuals.
(But also such dickishness isn't a behaviour type exclusive to men or male biology imho, that fact that we currently associate (and even encourage/keep the cycle repeating) this with men is the result of fucked up social constructs of the past, a shitty legacy of a flawed race.)
"... in a way that makes them
desirable asactual adults."FTFY.
I am not interested in being desirable to women. Many women need to get over that some men don't consider hanging out with women their obstacle in life.
Huh, so in essence boys and girls are raised to the same outcome.
I believe in women's rights and equity and equality for all types of people. That said, I found someone who makes my life interesting. Unfortunately my life is interesting in the wrong ways like half the time. It's aging me and I will die and early death. But that's at least an interesting life. Otherwise she doesn't do shit. No Job, no dishes, nothing. The only and most Important things she does is to teach the kids, do their workbooks together and pay the various bills. That's stuff I can't ever do because I go to work. While I'm happy that she does those things, I think she better find a job after the kids become more independent. That has literally been her excuse for not having a job for the past 15 years. So when the kids are finally doing well in school on their own, I will nag her like she nags me to get the garbage out. I will nag her to go get a job. That's my plan and I'm sticking to it because hey, she should be doing something desirable right? LOL. They cut her stomach up to get our babies out. That's probably the next excuse, a pretty good one, until I have my last breath. And to that I say: "Whatever babe, let me watch my show".
This is such a delicate subject. How do you talk about a societal broad issue without hurting individuals? With posts like these, there will always be people who feel aren't the real subject of it that feel the weight of it, and it's not a healthy way to approach things like this. There is a societal level problem with men's treatment of women, but men likely to see this post likely aren't part of that problem and want to improve things, and posts like this only kind of serve to to put people down. However, it's not like this post shouldn't have been posted, it's a serious topic that should be taken seriously and not ignored.
