If you only criticize civilian casualties when Palestine resists, then your concern isn't civilian casualties. Your concern is Palestine resisting massacre.
I'm mostly pro Palestine, but using this picture with the subtitle 'history repeats itself' and therefore portraying what happened at the festival, and the other slaughter missions as a tiny goofy missile, feels kinda disproportionate. Don't you think?
I'm not talking about who shoots the biggest rockets and who kills more people here. I'm talking about portraying a literal slaughter fest as a tiny lil rocket, mosquito sting or whatever, which causes no harm at all. This is not the right comic & subtitle to show what happened 'today'. At least in my opinion. Because it's not disproportionate to what happened.
But feel free to disagree, it you think it is. To me OP is more or less mocking the victims and I find it distasteful. Especially because people were involved, who weren't even culturally part of this ethnical conflict in the first place.
And no I'm not part of team both sides bad, because this conflict involves more than two sides and in the end people in Gaza suffer the most.
By disproportianting what happened. How you can not see that is beyond me. Just try to reflect on what you posted. Slaughtering hundred civilians = tiny mosquito rocket.
'History repeats itself'.. but this level didn't happen before.
From what I can see, @matcha_addict@lemy.lol is not mocking the victims of this tragedy, but rather criticising the media for writing about the israeli deaths caused by the hamas attack, yet hardly making a sound about the palestine deaths caused by israel.
I don't think disproportionate response doctrine from countries like the US and Israel should come as a surprise after more than half a century of conflict. Why murder 100 innocent people of your opponent when you know they will murder 1000 innocents of your people in response?
It's almost like motivation, methods, intentions, and circumstances matter and not just body count. For example, intentionally targeting civilians to maximize civilian deaths is not the same as accidentally killing civilians with collateral damage while trying to minimize civilian deaths.
Scores of people, mainly women and children, have been killed in multiple air strikes on the main road connecting north and south Gaza, as people carried out an Israeli order to flee their homes.
According to the Ministry of Health, at least 70 people have been killed in three separate air strikes on the road, with the latest killing at least 40.
The Israeli army said in a statement on Friday that civilians must leave Gaza City in the north, and that they would not be allowed to return "until we say so" and until "a statement is issued allowing this".
However, locals have reported a number of attacks on the Salah al-Din Road since then. Survivors, speaking to local media, implored others not to make the journey for fear of being targeted by the Israelis.
"Do not leave," a distraught survivor of the attacks told local media.
"They bombed the convoy. They bombed it on Salah al-Din Road. They bombed the ambulances."
Another survivor said the attacks were a "direct targeting of women and children".
"I was in the truck. There were about 200 people. 90 percent were women and children. We took the main road that the entire world knew we were taking. My entire family were with me. Out of nowhere, they dropped a bomb. Everything was black and I lost conscience for 10 mins," they told local media.
"When I woke up I saw a mother lying with her baby, whose brain was right next to him. I heard the ambulances then they bombed again. I took cover and after a few minutes tried to check the damage, then they bombed again."
So one officer 7 years ago, who had the book thrown at him for his crimes by Israel. His actions are clearly opposed by his government and he was punished for his behavior. This isn't the smoking gun @matcha_addict was implying it is.
Do you think Hamas will punish its own rapists, murderers, and kidnappers?
The officer, whose name remains barred from publication, served in the Defense Ministry’s Civil Administration, which is tasked with overseeing the day-to-day management of the West Bank. The officer, a major, was responsible for issuing permits for Palestinians to enter and work in Israel, a position of power that he repeatedly exploited in order to receive sexual favors from Palestinians.
Wow, you sure dismissed that as an isolated incident real quick!
I’m sure it never happened again now that they caught the only guy who got caught for doing it!
Hamas is not a state or government. It is a militia to fight occupation. It is nowhere near as organized as Israel with its governing body. You cannot equate the two.
Israel does not oppose this. There are mountains of evidence of Israelis torturing and raping children, pregnant women and elderly Palestinians. There is mountains of evidence of Palestinians being burned alive, or forced to destroy their own homes with their bare hands. The magnitude of cruelty is unmatched.
Do you want more evidence? I am happy to provide. But it seems you reject it even when presented evidence.
There are mountains of evidence of Israelis torturing and raping children, pregnant women and elderly Palestinians. There is mountains of evidence of Palestinians being burned alive, or forced to destroy their own homes with their bare hands. The magnitude of cruelty is unmatched.
Source?
Do you want more evidence? I am happy to provide.
Yes, please do.
But it seems you reject it even when presented evidence.
What evidence was I presented with that I rejected? The one article I was given (by someone else) does not prove systemic atrocities like you implied. It was an example of one criminal who was punished by Israel for his crimes.
The military prison abuse issue is one I wasn't aware of, that sounds pretty terrible. Clearly the military prisons need more oversight and the courts need reform. This one does seem like an example of systemic Israeli injustice.
I wonder what the best approach is to rehabilitate kids who attack soldiers with stones? It seems like they're being treated like future enemy soldiers, which may or may not be true. In any event it seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy, given the additional animosity systemic abuse like this must engender.
Wouldn't negotiating peace immediately remove Palestinians from the Israeli military court's authority? Seems like constant attacks just ensure that they remain under its jurisdiction.
I haven't found any articles about attempts to address this problem, I'm curious what if anything is being done in Israel about this.
The murder of Mohammed Abu Khedir was a terrible crime, and the people responsible were brought to justice by Israel.
[Mohammed's murderers] Ben David was sentenced to life in prison and an additional 20 years. ... On 4 February, the two minors were sentenced. One was given life imprisonment, the other was sentenced to serve 21 years.
It is hard to imagine a more hypocritical display than the crocodile tears of the same leaders who perpetrated the massacre of 2,200 Palestinians in Gaza last year, more than 500 of them children, now feigning outrage at the murder of one more.
On 3 January 2016, 21 year old Israeli settler Amiram Ben-Uliel was indicted for the murder, along with an Israeli minor, for participation in planning the murder. In addition, along with two others, they were both charged with one count of membership in a terrorist organization.[3][4]
In 2020, Ben-Uliel was convicted of three counts of murder, two counts of attempted murder, three counts of arson and of conspiring to commit a racially motivated crime,[5] as part of a "terrorist act".[6] However, he was acquitted of the charge of being a member of a terror organization.[7][8] He was sentenced to life imprisonment.[9]
Again, criminals who were severely punished for their crimes by Israel.
Being strip searched sucks but if someone is suspected of being armed it doesn't seem unreasonable if there's probable cause. If there isn't probable cause the soldiers should be reprimanded. If the IDF account is credible the search seems like it was done professionally by female solders. I'm not sure why this ranks among the other grievances, but this is an op-ed after all.
Of all these only the military prison for kids reeks of systemic injustice. Most of your examples are criminals who were punished by Israel for their crimes, motivated by the cycle of animosity. If the IDF were issuing orders to rape and murder non-combatant civilians you might have a case for equivalency but I see no evidence here of anything that can justify intentionally targeting civilians like Hamas has.
That's just one of countless examples from a two seconds of googling. It's the height of intellectual dishonesty to try and frame it as an isolated incident.
Yes the article I linked above discusses the revised charter. I see why you chose to share it rather than the original.
Hamas' original charter of course was explicitly genocidal:
Released on August 18, 1988, the original covenant spells out clearly Hamas’s genocidal intentions. Accordingly, what happened in Israel on Saturday is completely in keeping with Hamas’s explicit aims and stated objectives. It was in fact the inchoate realization of Hamas’s true ambitions.
The most relevant of the document’s 36 articles can be summarized as falling within four main themes:
The complete destruction of Israel as an essential condition for the liberation of Palestine and the establishment of a theocratic state based on Islamic law (Sharia),
The need for both unrestrained and unceasing holy war (jihad) to attain the above objective,
The deliberate disdain for, and dismissal of, any negotiated resolution or political settlement of Jewish and Muslim claims to the Holy Land, and
The reinforcement of historical anti-Semitic tropes and calumnies married to sinister conspiracy theories. ...
After some general explanatory language about Hamas’s religious foundation and noble intentions, the covenant comes to the Islamic Resistance Movement’s raison d’être: the slaughter of Jews. “The Day of Judgement will not come about,” it proclaims, “until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.”
Regarding the new one, the one you linked:
A Kinder, Gentler Charter?
On May 1, 2017, Hamas issued a revised charter. Gone were the “vague religious rhetoric and outlandish utopian pronouncements” of the earlier document, according to analysis prepared for the Institute of Palestine Studies. Instead, the new charter was redolent of “straightforward and mostly pragmatic political language” that had “shifted the movement’s positions and policies further toward the spheres of pragmatism and nationalism as opposed to dogma and Islamism.” Nonetheless, the analyst was struck by “the movement’s adherence to its founding principles” alongside newly crafted, “carefully worded” language suggesting moderation and flexibility.
Israel immediately dismissed the group’s effort to promote a kinder, gentler image of its once avowedly bloodthirsty agenda. “Hamas is attempting to fool the world, but it will not succeed,” a spokesperson from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office predicted.
In fact, the new document differs little from its predecessor. Much like the original, the new document asserts Hamas’s long-standing goal of establishing a sovereign, Islamist Palestinian state that extends, according to Article 2, from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea and from the Lebanese border to the Israeli city of Eilat—in other words, through the entirety of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. And it is similarly unequivocal about “the right of return” of all Palestinian refugees displaced as a result of the 1948 and 1967 wars (Article 12)—which is portrayed as “a natural right, both individual and collective,” divinely ordained and “inalienable.” That right, therefore “cannot be dispensed with by any party, whether Palestinian, Arab or international,” thus again rendering negotiations or efforts to achieve any kind of political settlement between Israel and the Palestinians irrelevant, void, or both. Article 27 forcefully reinforces this point: “There is no alternative to a fully sovereign Palestinian State on the entire national Palestinian soil, with Jerusalem as its capital.”
The most striking departure from the 1988 charter is that the 2017 statement of principles and objectives now claims that Hamas is not anti-Jewish but anti-Zionist and, accordingly, sees “Zionists” and not “Jews” as the preeminent enemy and target of its opprobrium. The revised document therefore modulates the blatantly anti-Semitic rhetoric of its predecessor but once again decries Zionism as central to a dark, conspiratorial plot of global dimensions.
For centuries, Jews have been blamed for causing the anti-Semitism directed against them. The new Hamas charter perpetuates this libel, arguing, “It is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity” and who are therefore responsible for the conflation of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism.
It seems like Hamas revised some of the more objectionable language in the original, but they are still Hamas, and their intentions are quite clear both by word and deed.
The comment I linked to you in response to a comment making the same claims you're making. All of your points should be addressed in the comment I linked. Is there any part of the comment I linked you that you think is incorrect? Or is there something you think I left unaddressed? Please let me know.
It seems like Hamas revised some of the more objectionable language in the original
It's a quite big change, not mere paraphrasing or slight changes if that's what you're implying. Hamas changed radically in that time, as I explained in the comment I linked, and the document reflects that.
but they are still Hamas, and their intentions are quite clear both by word and deed.
Intentions of what? Do you mean your original claim above? Again, I already talked about why that's false. It would be easier if you address my argument instead of make the same claims again. The only genocidal entity by word and deed at the moment is Israel.
This is nothing new. Often the actions of Israel are portrayed in the worst way possible. As a quick example: The UN considers everyone under 18 a child, hamas starts recruiting at 14. When the IDF does a raid and kills one of these members the Arab media screams „Isreal has slaughtered children“
Ignoring of course the countless children they kill who aren't part of hamas. The ratio of children to adults killed by Israel can only be reached by doing it on purpose.
You "switching sides" because you don't like the media reporting on these murders is a joke and I can only assume a lie, because it doesn't make sense.
The media reporting stuff doesn't change what is happening nor the morals and ethics involved. Silly to blame the media for you choosing to support the murder of innocents.
It’s on purpose, but on the hamas side, they use children and civilians in general as human meat shields. They fire their rockets from schools and hospitals, hide their equipment in residential areas. Just to scream „Israel bad“ when one of these outpost gets attacked
How convenient, when israel kills civilians its because palestine is hiding behind them, in their own country, being bombed. Its only heartless civilian massacres the other way around.
It seems so, if you gloss over the fact that Hamas is using unguided rockets to throw in the general direction of Israel and Israel is using precision ammunition to target the places the first were fired from.
You're suggesting that intent doesn't matter, causing accidental civilian deaths while defending one's self is an act morally equivalent to intentionally targeting and murdering civilians. I disagree. In most legal systems and ethical systems intent matters a lot.
Israel is expanding into the West Bank, not Gaza. They are resisting nobody. Israel even removed all of its citizens from that area. They are terrorists. They are founded by and doing the bidding for Iran.
“Palestinian women are not having lots of children because they don’t know about contraception, or can’t access contraception,” says Sara Randall, an anthropologist at University College London, who co-authored the 2006 investigation. “So one has to conclude that they actually want lots of children.” source
The article you linked to makes many excellent points. When you're poor, bored, and chock full of bombing-induced PTSD, having many kids is seen as a good idea.
The soundness of your argument should not depend on your stance. It is a common tactic to state that you are "pro-X" but criticize X, because people are more likely to sympathize with your criticism that way. The commenter you replied to is simply reminding us of this.