Bernie Sanders to voters skipping presidential election over Israel: ‘Trump is even worse’

Oh It 100% is.

80% Russian campaign and 20% reaction to being lectured constantly by people who will forget that progressive votes are needed to beat Republicans when it comes time to pick a new candidate.
- Progressive votes are already counted out. We know there will always be smug pseudo-intellectual “leftists” that will hold their vote as a threat to democracy if the don’t get their way with [current thing]. You do this every election year.
  
  The problem is, you think people are going to give in to your demands when there is SO much more at stake than a war in a country you people couldn’t even locate on a map a year ago.
  
  So no, you all can keep your votes. It’s too late to reason with trolls. The rest of us will be happy enough to not have to deal with you once you all disappear November 5th.
  
  Typical. You don't even know the difference between a progressive and a tankie.
  
  war in a country you people couldn’t even locate on a map a year ago.
  
  Project much?
- I would agree. Its like 80% russian disinfo or israeli settlers (I would love to see the IPs here) and like 20% people who feel icky about voting for a dem and are doing mental gymnastics.
  
  We need to make the case that Kamala is better than Trump for Palestine, and do it without demonizing those on the fence. They need to understand that their voices will continue to be heard when the election is over, and a whole lot of the rhetoric being aimed at them says just the opposite, or at least implies it. "Let's elect Kamala so we can continue to fight for Palestine" instead of "Palestine has to take a back seat to all these other issues."
  
  I will say this. Actual leftists get arrested for protests so like the real people actually fighting for people's rights know that we'll be sacrificing less people to stupid shit if Kamala is elected. There is no argument that can be made to armchair leftists and russian trolls though. They have no stake in the outcome because they either have enough privelege to sit it out or they are bad faith.

Been saying it for weeks. Nobody with half a brain would fall for that shit.

A vote against Harris is a vote against protecting America. That may not be true next election(fuck, I hope it's not), but right here...right now....it's true.

It will absolutely true next election. Democrats will keep undermining progressives and running weak and ineffective candidates until the dice fall badly and the fascists win. That's how these cycles always go.

Every election will be more dangerous than the one before until elections stop. The next Trump will be far more capable than the rapist toddler we're dealing with now.
- yeah, we all know that. "the next trump" has been waiting in the wings since that guy got stabbed in ancient Rome. democracy requires all of us to complain and demonstrate.
You don't need much of a brain to understand that voting and supporting criminals with blood on their hands is bad. You also don't need to be too smart to understand that your choice isn't limited to vote between two colors.
- You also don’t need to be too smart to understand that your choice isn’t limited to vote between two colors.
  
  I mean.. you said it.
  
  But I agree, only idiots believe that third parties are viable in our broken electoral saystem
  
  The system is so broken that only an idiot could believe in it. Third parties are the lesser evil choice.
Nobody with half a brain would fall for that

it's a lot of good people on the far left side of twitter
- Where we need to take America doesn't need extremists, of any kind.
  
  I don't have a problem when Americans dislike abortions. I do have a problem when they try to take the option away from Americans.
  
  I don't have a problem with people protesting civil rights violations. I do have a problem with Americans rioting and killing each other.
  
  Extremism of any kind is toxic and has no place in a stable future. That's because all extremism is born out of a strong emotional desire or need from the people.
  
  IMO the only way out of this is to stomp out the conservative extremist fires and roll back the damage they've done. Only this will appease the extreme left enough for them to walk back from the line.
  
  Progress forward is a balancing act that requires a soft touch. Unfortunately we had four years of a crude daft orange ogre that destroyed that balance.
  
  As long as we make it through the next two months, we should be fine. Extremists can't do anything against a mind they can't manipulate. Just don't fall for the emotional trap.
  
  Stay calm, stay vigilant, stay in control.
  
  You won't do anything, centrist, that's the point of being a centrist.
  
  “America in 2016 was perfect until orange man ruined it, we simply need to return to 2016 and everything will be ok”
  
  the politics understander
  
  American politics in 2016 wasn't perfect, that's why it's been called the "Great American Experiment".
  
  But the world was a whole lot quieter in 2015. Wasn't it?
  
  Americans got along a lot better than they do today in 2015. Didn't they?
  
  My point was that we need to go back to that if we have any hope of moving forward.
  
  Unfortunately, the Russian and Chinese governments have been trying to drive a wedge between the American public, and they're succeeding. Their actions have fractured American conservative parties into useless, "do-nothings". Now they're trying to do the same thing to the left. Until now they've been unsuccessful.
  
  The United States of America has peered into the abyss before, similar to how we are now. I'll quote something that someone very wise said at that time that still rings true today.
  
  A house divided against itself, cannot stand. I believe this government cannot endure permanently half slave and half free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved – I do not expect the house to fall – but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all the other.
  
  As we stand upon the precipice, with baited breath, I hope for a future that my children can inherit.
  
  My point was that we need to go back to that if we have any hope of moving forward.
  
  So, Make America Great Again
  
  America is just Exceptional that way
  
  Thanks for reminding me to read this book:
  
  This was reported, I'm not sure its rule breaking, but its weirdly aggressive.
  
  Just like me personally
  
  XD

The genocide will continue no matter who wins. The argument is dumb.

Sounds like a hell of a system.
- Campaign locally to change the system - we need more places to use preferential voting like ranked choice before third parties will matter.
  
  Until that happens, you can either work within the system that does exist or decide that your feelings matter more than the results 🤷‍♂️
  
  From my perspective, I am the one that cares about results more than feelings, and "blue no matter who" voters are the opposite. The results of democrat leadership have been a horror show of ghoulish support for genocide. The current administrations policies have directly resulted in tens of thousands of deaths (at least) in Gaza. I see a lot of democrats expressing feelings about how Biden and Kamala are actually good people, and are working hard towards a ceasefire. Let me know when to expect another result.
  
  Let me know when to expect another result.
  
  That's easy - when Trump is elected and he fully opens our arsenal and actually provides troops instead of maintaining current levels of support.
  
  He has explicitly said that we aren't doing enough and that Israel isn't doing enoughevery single time he has spoken on the topic. Believe him.
  
  You're saying killing innocent people is wrong?
  
  I agree! We should stop doing that.
  
  Trump has to say things that differentiate him from democrats. He wants to look 'tougher'. This is a fucked up result of democrats moving right on things like this and "border security". Democrat leadership is already doing everything it can to support Israel. Can you think of anything more they could do, that Trump would say "good job, no notes"? Trump talks a lot of shit, but he hasn't said he would send US troops (Biden already has, BTW).
  
  Wait, so who's arguing on feelings instead of the issues and results, again? 🤔
  
  Trump is an infamous liar. You feel like he would be worse for Palestinians, because you feel like Trump is bad (he is) and that Biden/Harris/Walz are good (they aren't). The results from the dem leadership have been total support for genocide that is still ongoing.
  
  To be clear, I voted Harris because of the many groups of people being threatened, here, not just one. Palestinians are at risk. Ukrainians are at risk. Immigrants are at risk. Minorities are at risk. Women are at risk. The entire LGBTQIA+ community is at risk.
  
  No, you feeling better about your vote isn't worth more than all of their lives.
  
  Well, you've done your part then. Pat yourself on the back, and go back to pretending Harris is a caring and competent leader.
  
  You.
  
  I'm looking at results: full throated political, and unlimited material support for genocide. Currently. Ongoing. You have a feeling that Trump will be worse 'somehow'. There is no result to indicate this. Only the campaign bluster of a famous liar.
  
  decide that your feelings matter more than the results 🤷‍♂️
  
  My moral standards do matter more than the human world, yes.
  
  Your moral standards matter more than the lives of people actually affected by the results. Yes, we all know how selfish you are, don't worry.
  
  Your moral standards matter more than the lives of people
  
  My moral standards are that peoples' lives are important, so killing them is wrong. That's why I don't accept that there is a good reason to bomb civilians.
  
  My moral standards are not that you can say "well, killing people is wrong, but I prefer these people, so I will sacrifice others". If killing people is wrong, you do not accept sacrifice.
  
  And my level of understanding of reality is that the trolley problem is a thought experiment which does not exist, and it's not a zero sum either/or game where the safety of people in America is only ensured by sacrificing people in the Middle East.
  
  Source: medium
  
  In 1976, Judith J. Thomson expanded the problem into the classic version that most of us know today.
  
  Would you push a fat man off a bridge to stop a runaway trolley from killing 5 workers on the tracks?
  
  This version is not just about switching tracks, but brings the moral issue much closer to home by saying if you want to save 5 people, you yourself have to push someone off a bridge.
  
  To make matters worse, these are also the only two choices that you have. There is nothing else you can do; there is no escaping the problem.
  
  [...]
  
  Like many philosophy instructors, I have given this thought experiment to my students many times. In my philosophy classes, Students of all levels and ages are repulsed by the experiment. They think that it is stupid that there are only two choices and that there is nothing else they can do.
  
  [...]
  
  But something I have never seen given much consideration is the initial response that my students and so many others have to the problem.
  
  [...]
  
  Our intuition is that if we are in a lose-lose moral situation where the right moral action does not feel satisfactory, then someone else made a bad moral decision already; leaving us holding the bag.
  
  You are free to dislike me because I don't rationalise myself into supporting something I, in the same sentence, say I do not agree with.
  I am a very straightforward person, being autistic. If it is wrong to kill innocent people, it is wrong to kill innocent people. No amount of rationalising that can change that obvious fact.
  
  You are a slave to a practical human world wherein, to be good, some humans must die. 'Le shrug, oh well, it is the price of being practical.'
- Yes, the system sucks, and we should do what we can to fix it.
  
  What is also important is Order of Operations. It will be much harder (if not impossible) to effect any positive change on the systems that be if the orange orangutan wins the election, while those changes will be at least possible under the leadership of the blue candidate.
  
  I like to think that people who are not able to figure this out are victims of republican/russian propaganda. To think otherwise would be both depressing and enraging and I have too much of my own shit going on to deal with any of that.
  
  I don't think you can end up anywhere good by bargaining with genocide. "Sucks" doesn't even come close to describing such a system. The order of operations you're talking about sounds to me like: 1- elect the more decorous monster 2- go back to ignoring all the suffering. I'll definitely agree that it's depressing, but it doesn't require any foreign propaganda to be that.
  
  Thank you for saying this. If we keep choosing the 'lesser of two evils', we just keep allowing things to get worse, albeit more slowly.
  
  So you admit that the options are literally "get worse slowly" or "burn it all," and you would rather see everyone suffer? Cool. No wonder everyone loves far-leftists.
  
  No wonder everyone loves far-leftists.
  
  Everyone loves civilians in the Middle East too, so much they send them explosive gifts.
  
  I would rather not see innocent people die.
  
  And you actually believe that not participating pushes towards that goal? Or can we live in reality and admit that it just makes you feel better while having the opposite effect?
  
  And you actually believe that not participating pushes towards that goal?
  
  Not participating in a system which murders the innocent is, indeed, the moral choice.
  
  Prevent fewer deaths or witness more deaths. Not participating is a choice but still a choice at the end of the day with blood still on your hands. So get the fuck off your high horse.
Sure, but one side seems to be advocating for more of the same shittiness we've had for decades, and the other side for a final solution to the Palestinian problem. It's not like the choices are equal.
I've got a question for you... I'm sure you are familiar with the famous, "First They Came" sermon/poem/whatever by Martin Niemöller? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

At what point during that poem would you consider a genocide underway? Would it be when they started murdering all of the communists? Or maybe after they eliminated all of the trade unionists?

Let's extend that poem to include all of the categories of people that the Nazis killed:

They started with trans people, was it a genocide yet? How about after they started including homosexuals?

Maybe it becomes a genocide when they go after the mentally and physically disabled?

Or does it only become a genocide when they go after the Jews?

Obviously, the answer is all of the fucking above.

Guess what: Genocide very much can and does get worse. Much much worse. This concept that it is all or nothing is completely ahistorical and illogical.
- Guess what: Genocide very much can and does get worse. Much much worse.
  
  Sounds like you agree it's bad enough now to want to stop it.
  
  Bad enough to do what is in my power to reduce it. Which means voting for Harris.

That's been my experience on Lemmy recently too. It feels like there is a push to disenfranchise to "teach them a lesson we dont support genocide by ensuring a somewhat more genocidal maniac gets in instead".

I get the sentiment, but it ignores the two party system, and not voting does not fix that broken system, it ensures it. And I think the trolls know this too.

somewhat more genocidal maniac

Somewhat?

It's the same in my Eastern European country - Russians run two troll campaigns:

to disenfranchise any pro-democratic voters, with slogans like "all candidates are shit and corrupt, you should hate them, politics, and the whole democratic process"
to boost nationalist, far-right, anti-establishment parties - there are several of them to cast a wider net over the electorate, and they can assemble together to run their always pro-Russian politics after getting in Parliament

It's the dame playbook everywhere they care to get results and undermine their enemies.

And what about the "vote for genocide or you support genocide-plus!" posts?

That’s called logic. And a firm understanding of how things work. But also, that comes from people that know Harris will do what she is able to stop it once she’s elected, but needs to play the game to have a chance for that to happen.

But you all know this already. Don’t you?
- How have you concocted such a fantasy? What sign has Harris given that she will deviate one iota from the current policy towards Israel? You just wish it to be so. Even if this were somehow true, it is almost worse! "No, you see, I have to support genocide now, so I can win all the pro genocide votes, and then as soon as I've won, I'll betray the people that elected me by stopping the genocide." Smell the logic, lol.

Pretty strong clues that it’s organized bullshit propaganda.

negative against democrats while never mentioning republicans
illogical since Trump is worse on the issue
fails to address voting system issues that make 3rd party useless
supporters rarely engage in real discussions and just repeat insulting slogans

supporters rarely engage in real discussions and just repeat insulting slogans

To be fair, with a stance so immensely stupid, there isn't much else to say.

It's kind of obvious

Several of my alt accounts have been banned across the fediverse for calling out such nans. I figure if my alts get banned for that, then I should block them from my main.

(if anyone takes offense to me having "several" alts, that's because without using 3rd party apps you can't categorize interests like reddit's multis feature without just having multiple accounts with their own sub list.)

I've seen many: 'feel free to vote 3rd party, its okay to not support a genocidal candidate' very few 'dont vote or you support genocide' are you sure you're reading peoples posts correctly?

Same thing. The fact that most of these accounts, very similar to your own, are new accounts speaks volumes.
- its really not. ever heard of the saying: 'its the journey, not the destination?' maybe you should just try putting an ounce of effort into not supporting a genocide. even if that just means lieing to a pollster about your support for harris. make her sweat a little. maybe even at the end of the day change her position.
  
  trust me its pretty easy. I'm doing putting that ounce in right now. emailing my critters, casting my 3rd party vote, dealing with you twits who are blinding running off a cliff for fear of trump and enabling a genocide in the process. I don't expect you to go as far I do but thats okay. I dont mind if you vote for harris. I mind that she supports genocide. I mind she doesn't support labor. I'm willing to sacrifice some of those things to avoid trump. but I'm not willing to leave her unbloodied while she supports a genocide.
  
  We’re not responsible for harris’ genocidal positions. she is. she chose this. she can also not chose it. we’ll welcome her back to the family when she does.
It's the same fucking thing, oh my god
- is it though? would you be in such a panic over the issue if people like me were not doing what we're doing? no? would harris be suffering in the polls and struggling if not for us telling everyone exactly what we're going to do and why?
  
  Would they have bothered trotting out bernie to 'reason with us'? you know what harris needs to do to get our votes. the question is are you so callous that you'd support a genocide instead of telling harris and the DNC to stop being shit stains? the vote are here she just needs to take them.
  
  there isnt anything for you to fear if you reach out and embrace your arab and jewish brothers and sisters. why are you trying so had to enable a genocide when you can just.... not. you can still vote for harris in the end if you really want, I dont mind. its your vote. but couldn't you just... try? even a little bit? maybe lie to a pollster about your support, email your critters daily this week? maybe follow through and vote 3rd party or leave the president blank if you're in a 20+ blue state.
  
  We're not responsible for harris' genocidal positions. she is. she chose this. she can also not chose it. we'll welcome her back to the family when she does.

I’m* convinced

Are you aware that USA spend 10 times as much money on war and propaganda than russia does? The current government of USA is fueling a genocide in gaza and supporting the fascist israel government. There sure is russian propaganda too around but keep in mind that is in the interest of the government to cover up its wrongdoing and keep trust among the public.

We fucking know, dude.

That's why we're voting for Harris. And no, I'm not going to explain why for the 1000th fucking time.
- That’s why we’re voting for Harris.
  
  You are voting for them because "The current government of USA is fueling a genocide in gaza and supporting the fascist israel government. "?
  
  Because Harris is open to ceasefire pressure and Trump want's Israel to 'Finish the job'.
  
  One's hands aren't morally clean if you don't vote and Trump wins. Not voting is functionally equivalent to voting for whoever wins, and if he does win with a low turnout then those who didn't vote are responsible for whatever happens.
  
  Thanks for this... I'm tired of typing the same shit over and over and over.
  
  Don't worry buddy, someone else typed it for you. You can now go back chilling while USA government aid israel fascist government in murdering kids
  
  I'm not your buddy.
  
  I've responded in detail to at least a dozen people like this saying the same stupid shit and it's consistently a total waste of time. You just get back some idiocy like "okay U support genocide" and they don't seem to comprehend anything at all or even read it. Kind of makes me doubt they're serious about anything but helping Trumpy out.
  
  Yeah... I still do it though, because it's not necessarily for the person I'm replying to, but for anyone else who might stumble upon the thread and be bombarded with disinformation.
  
  I get your frustration, but it is really important to keep spelling it out. I find it very frustrating to be on the receiving and of lines like I'm tired of explaining it to you people when I am earnestly engaging in a conversation for the first time, so I think it's best to give people the benefit of the doubt that maybe they really don't know, especially on forums where people other than those commenting will read it also.
  
  We've been hearing this exact same stupid shit all year. It's hard believing these people are serious. Getting Trump elected doesn't help not 'support genocide' and they never, ever, ever address that.
  
  Well, luckily you can tag people with most Lemmy apps, so sometimes it's easy to know when people are acting in bad faith.
  
  Because Harris is open to ceasefire
  
  They are the vice president of an administration that is fueling the genocide and aiding israel fascist government with "whatever it needs"
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel–Hamas_war
  
  Israel is already finishing the job with the help of USA
  
  Not voting is functionally equivalent to voting for whoever wins
  
  Don't try to bend logic. Voting for criminals with blood on their hands is evil and will lead to nothing good. The responsible for what happens are the one who directly supported criminals into power not the ones who didn't.
  
  One of Harris and Trump is going to be the president. Sorry but that is the reality, the time for getting a better candidate has passed.
  
  It is time to pick which one you want. If you don't vote you don't care so you accept either outcome.
  
  Voting is not and should not be wholly endorsing the person, but securing the best outcome from the options. You want better options then go into politics yourself.
  
  US government is supporting a genocide where kids are being murdered daily. It's time to do something about it unless you are fine with your money being send to israel fascist government and being used to murder people.
  
  Whew, got the trolls following me around today, boyeeee! Let's go!
I'm aware that the US government does propaganda too, yes. I have no idea what it has to do with this.
- USA spend 10 times more money in war and propaganda than anyone else and they are being accused of supporting a genocide. Labeling as "russian trolls" these who are saying to not support the government or vote for criminals with blood on their hands sound more like the propaganda rather than people pointing the finger at war criminals.