Covid origins: Genetic ghosts suggest pandemic started in market
Covid origins: Genetic ghosts suggest pandemic started in market
A team of scientists say it is "beyond reasonable doubt" the Covid pandemic started with infected animals.
A team of scientists say it is “beyond reasonable doubt” the Covid pandemic started with infected animals sold at a market, rather than a laboratory leak.
They were analysing hundreds of samples collected from Wuhan, China, in January 2020.
The results identify a shortlist of animals – including racoon dogs, civets and bamboo rats – as potential sources of the pandemic.
Despite even highlighting one market stall as a hotspot of both animals and coronavirus, the study cannot provide definitive proof.
The samples were collected by Chinese officials in the early stages of Covid and are one of the most scientifically valuable sources of information on the origins of the pandemic.
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Their analysis was published last year and the raw data made available to other scientists. Now a team in the US and France says they have performed even more advanced genetic analyses to peer deeper into Covid's early days.
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Wasn't this known already? Weren't there all kinds of discussions about shutting down wet markets because of this?
There's a bunch of indications / conspiracy theories that it might have been a lab leak. Basically there's not really a way to know unless the Chinese government starts being more forthcoming with information.
The main reason the conspiracy theory started is because the city where it started had a world renowned virus research facility in it.
Of course, the reason the facility is there in the first place is because Wuhan province is a place where a lot of viruses originate naturally (in bat colonies), so it makes sense you research the viruses close to their natural reservoir.
Wuhan province is a place where a lot of viruses originate naturally (in bat colonies)
This is disingenuous. RaTG13 was sourced in Tongguan in Mojiang Hani Autonomous County 1800km from Wuhan.
I don't have any information to add one way or the other, but it kinda sounds like you're saying the fact that one bat-bourne illness was found elsewhere, it's impossible that Wuhan has many or any such viruses too, which seems pretty fallacious.
No. Its pretty fallacious to imply WIV was only looking at local bats.
The wuhan area certainty has many viruses, but none were anywhere close to the sample found 1800 km away, which WIV certainty had a copy of because they sequenced it.
I don't think anyone said they were only looking at local viri. The original comment said (emphasis mine)
Of course, the reason the facility is there in the first place is because Wuhan province is a place where a lot of viruses originate naturally (in bat colonies), so it makes sense you research the viruses close to their natural reservoir.
So Wuhan was ideal because it's where a lot of viri originate. That doesn't imply they only looked at viri from nearby just that the location was chosen because there were so many nearby.
The prior paragraph is also important
The main reason the conspiracy theory started is because the city where it started had a world renowned virus research facility in it.
Left on its own this implies that the lab is the source. However, the next paragraph counters that view. It erroneously implies the local area is full of bats and their species hopping coronaviruses. Not even "China's Bat Woman" thinks that is likely:-
Yeah but the US media was too busy implying that China manufactured the virus in a bio lab.
Funnily enough China still suffered because it failed to lock down early enough because the government tried to ignore and detain doctors in an effort to control the narrative that everything would be fine.
The US suffered because they nuked their Pandemic emergency pla only like a few years before covid because Trump thought Spanish Fever wouldn't reincarnate to finish the job on its 100th anniversary lol.
So it was easy to vaguely point at China instead of actually solving the problem.
I don't know what US media you were consuming in 2020/21, but it was pretty much understood it came from something exotic in a wet market.
Most of us didn't know what a wet market existed or what it was until COVID. There was some conspiracy shit that the right ate up, and some editorial and opinions on the idea, but the whole bioengineered super virus escaping a lab wasn't taken that seriously
the whole bioengineered super virus escaping a lab wasn't taken that seriously
Excellent evidence why there is such a battle over misinformation.
I do recall that story. What I don't get is why the intelligence agencies had any say in the likely origin. It's not a factor of "if the virus was in a lab." It could have been. The fact is that even back then when they had the virus sequenced, they could clearly see it came from a zoonotic source, probably the same one with SARS.
The thing that irked me so bad about it is that it highlights the discrepancy between science and suspicion. Think of how vital DNA has been to crime prosecutions or exonerations. The same thing applies here.
What I don't get is why the intelligence agencies had any say in the likely origin.
If it did originate during the development of a bioweapon then you would want the intelligence agencies to be as informed as possible. Thankfully none believe that to be the case.
they could clearly see it came from a zoonotic source
Yes. 96% zoonotic. It's that latest 4% that is of interest. Particularly the fully functional cleavage site at the S1, S2 junction.
Wasn't this disproven already? Covid has been detected in human waste matter samples from Autumn 2019 in Italy.
Overall, the results of this blind retesting of a selected set of samples indicate the presence of SARS-CoV-2 antibodies in some SMILE samples collected in the prepandemic period. The oldest samples found positive for IgM by both laboratories were collected on 10 October 2019 (Lombardy), 11 November 2019 (Lombardy) and 5 February 2020 (Lazio), the latter with neutralizing antibodies. Two additional samples collected on 17 December 2019 (Campania) and 28 January 2020 (Lombardy) tested as IgG positive by VisMederi and positive for IgG S1 and IgG S1+NP by Erasmus. Additional IgM positive cases could have been detected also by Erasmus by lowering the cut-off of the commercial IgM assay. The older among these putative additional IgM positive samples was collected on 3 September 2019 in the Veneto region, one of the first and mostly severely affected COVID-19 regions.
I don't really understand what this is actually saying?
Surely, if this were saying "covid started in italy" or "covid was around in 2019" that would rate more song and dance than a single obscure research paper?
These findings do not at all suggest that the virus originated in Italy, but they endorse the idea that the virus was likely spreading in China before the first known cases and that could have been circulated by travelers given direct the connections between China and European and US countries, particularly the Northern West and East Italian regions, which are among the most industrialized and connected areas of Italy.
There's a lot more than a single obscure research paper but that's the best one in terms of science in my opinion. It was quite broadly covered news (in Europe at least?) when the virus was first found in waste water samples from Milan from the same period.
We knew it was in Europe before 2020 all the way back in June 2020: https://www.reuters.com/article/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/italy-sewage-study-suggests-covid-19-was-there-in-december-2019-idUSKBN23Q1J8/
By November 2020 it was pushed back as far as September 2019: https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2020-11-17/COVID-19-was-spreading-in-Italy-by-September-2019-study-indicates-VuSqUttP8s/index.html
As someone else replied, it isn't saying Covid started in Italy, but rather that it definitely didn't start because someone ate bat soup from a wet market in Wuhan in December 2019. Well, the science is just stating as a fact that Covid was in these samples from Italy in 2019. Everything else is inferred.
It was 2020. We had people shouting about "the China Virus" and others defending the cultural importance of wet markets and others saying it was a bioweapon from a lab and others saying it didn't exist at all.
It seemed to suit absolutely nobody's narrative that
- it took longer to be detected than previously thought, and lots of doctors missed it
- we don't really know where it started exactly, and can't really ever know without a concerted investigation of the same sort done in Italy
- international travel and globalisation as well as illegal trade of exotic animals and their carcasses makes it all pretty much guesswork, since Indonesian civit poachers on Filipino boats in the South China Sea don't submit wastewater samples
- ultimately its source was inconsequential compared to how we actually responded and what we retained afterwards (nothing, it seems)