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Hell isn't a place, it's an event --the idea of the immortal soul comes from greek philosophy and isn't biblical at all
(I'm a christian, I found this by sorting by hot:all)
edit: with the title, it really is unconditional. Jesus loves the people who crucified Him. Some of His last words were "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing" (luke 23:34). God finds no joy in hell.Cool story, so what's with the fire, brimstone and eternity of suffering? Seems a little much for an event?
Or maybe you're of one of the denominations that don't believe in hell?
There were fuckin bored and Netflix wasn't around.
There is no eternity of suffering, hell is a one-off event and it hasn't happened yet (I'm a seventh day adventist, we do believe in "hell" but quite differently than most denominations)
As you say, you're in the minority of Christians in your belief, and that many believe in the literal, eternal suffering, lake of fire kind of hell. Memes kind of have to cater to common denominators, so might then not pertain to you.
We don't have many adventists where I'm from, would you entertain a theological question from your belief?
What role does Hell play in your denomination? In other Christianities it's often a deterrent, source of God fear, and an answer to what happens to the out-group (heathens, gentiles, sinners, etc).
If Hell is a "short" event before eternal death-sleep (I googled adventist hell belief, sorry if I'm misunderstanding), it seems like it would be a very mild punishment for cardinal sins/heresy, but maybe you don't have those?
Memes kind of have to cater to common denominators, so might then not pertain to you.
I know, but it still isn't Biblical tho
What role does Hell play in your denomination? In other Christianities it's often a deterrent, source of God fear, and an answer to what happens to the out-group (heathens, gentiles, sinners, etc).
tbh most of the times that I've heard it talked about are saying about how it's a place rather than an event, pretty much what I've been saying here. It really is one of two choices: you can choose to be with God forever, or you can be apart from Him forever. He wants to be with you but it's ultimately your choice.
If Hell is a "short" event before eternal death-sleep (I googled adventist hell belief, sorry if I'm misunderstanding)
That's about it really
it seems like it would be a very mild punishment for cardinal sins/heresy, but maybe you don't have those?
God wants to forgive us, but we need to let Him. The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is to intentionally and consistently harden your heart and ignore Him-- how can you be forgiven if you ignore the one who wants to forgive you? If you're wondering if you've done that and wether you can be forgiven, it's not too late. You can still come back to Him.
Feel free to ask questions I don't mind (I actually kinda enjoy it)
He wants to forgive us?? Then he could do it. He's all powerful, all knowing after all. What do I have to be forgiven for? Original sin? Give me a break.
How many hoops do you need to jump through to arrive at a christian conclusion? How many times did you have to be told to believe in something unprovable and invisible?
Your fervent beliefs are likely held less strongly than some Hindus, Muslims, Jews, etc. They are ALL sure that you are wrong, just as you they. Can't you see the futility of pretending to know something unknowable? If you had been born somewhere else, you would perhaps hold completely different views just as strongly.
You blindly place your trust in other humans who are telling you to believe in something utterly impossible. You really think they have translated divine will over millennia? Let alone accurately? If the devil exists, then he lives in the utter hubris of humanity. To think that we can know the unknowable.
Isn't it convenient that the "devil" is responsible for sowing the seeds of doubt. Isn't it convenient that no matter what logic and reason you apply, your religion can merely hand-wave and say it isn't for us to know? Are you satisfied with non-answers and manipulation of your emotions?
You're being duped. I genuinely hope you can find your way out.
Cheers,
A formerly brainwashed Catholic child
He is omnipotent, he can simply forgive us without our involvement. Or allow forgiveness after death, because death is an arbitrary cutoff. Or provide more obvious evidence he exists instead of giving children cancer.
The meme is applicable to your beliefs as well. Guess correctly in ~100 years of life or be denied paradise for eternity.
He is omnipotent, he can simply forgive us without our involvement. Or allow forgiveness after death, because death is an arbitrary cutoff.
He could, but that wouldn't be consistent with His character. It'd involve Him overriding the free will that He gave us. If you don't let Him forgive you He won't.
Or provide more obvious evidence he exists instead of giving children cancer.
There's plenty of evidence. He's not really hidden, but if you don't want to find Him there's a fair chance you won't. And God doesn't give kids cancer, this world is broken and fallen. This isn't how it's supposed to be.
The meme is applicable to your beliefs as well. Guess correctly in ~100 years of life or be denied paradise for eternity.
It'll be paradise, but only for those who want to be with Him. If you don't want to be with Him, why would you want to be with Him for eternity? Everyone has a choice, you can be with God forever or be apart from Him forever. He'd rather you choose to be with Him, but He won't force you to be with Him. There's no eternal suffering in hell, it's just nothingness, eternal separation from God.
He "overrides" free will all the time, like when he commits global genocide by flood because everyone was bad. BTW none of them yet had Jesus to worship for salvation, so I guess they're just out of luck, huh? Or when god directly murders a person does that give them a free ticket?
He does give children cancer. He created the world, he created all the evil in the world, he created cancer. "No, boo hoo, we are fallen, we ate the fruit," he created the fruit, he placed us next to the fruit.
Heaven is completely unconscionable. If a child refused to come to an activity one weekend, you'd spitefully refuse to allow that child to attend that activity forever? That's how a child behaves, not an adult. That's how god behaves also.
The whole concept is idiotic. It's clearly fairy tales built on the morals of the era they came from. But because generations of gullible believers have been brainwashing their children we have to deal with it to this day.
Jesus accounts for everybody, including those who lived and died before He came here. That's what the animal sacrifices were for, they were a symbol of what Jesus was going to do. God didn't create evil, evil is a natural byproduct of free will. Yes He created us and He created that tree, but we had a choice. When you speed and get a fine, is it your fault (because you did it) or is it the car company's fault (because they made a car that can go that fast and then sold it to you)? Heaven isn't just about living forever, it's mostly about being with God forever, and if you want to be with Him for all eternity, why wouldn't you want to be with Him now? Hell isn't a place of eternal suffering, it's being apart from God forever. Everybody has plenty of time and chances to make that choice, and everybody is judged only by what they can do.
God placed us next to the tree prior to humanity having any knowledge of good or evil. God knew what was going to happen. Would you punish a child and all that child's descendants for eating candy if you left them next to a bag? Only a psychopath would give out punishments like that.
God created free will therefore god created evil. God is therefore evil. God genocided an entire planet despite murder being evil. God is therefore evil. It's not complicated and you talking in circular logic and platitudes doesn't make you correct.
Kudos for sharing your side of things here. Even if I don't agree ;P
It bothers me how many people use the downvote button as a "I disagree" button.
I know, but it still isn't Biblical tho
Well that seems to depend on who's reading it :P
God wants to forgive us, but we need to let Him. The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is to intentionally and consistently harden your heart and ignore Him-- how can you be forgiven if you ignore the one who wants to forgive you? If you're wondering if you've done that and wether you can be forgiven, it's not too late. You can still come back to Him.
I might not be understanding the nuances here, but from what you say even an Unforgivable Sin is "punished" by oblivion in the death-sleep, no?
So I gather then that you don't really fear hell, although not-hell would be preferable?
I might not be understanding the nuances here, but from what you say even an Unforgivable Sin is "punished" by oblivion in the death-sleep, no?
That's about it really, just the death-sleep is forever
So I gather then that you don't really fear hell, although not-hell would be preferable?
I don't have any need to be afraid of hell, I'm with God. But even then I don't fear death-- there's nothing in it for me to be afraid of because if I were to drop dead right now, I'd be dead (death-sleep, but this one's temporary) and the next thing I'd know would be Him coming back
In that case, why would anyone fear hell?
And if hell is the event at which you aren't choosing God, why have it in the discourse at all? Or maybe I'm imagining it wrong, as to me it sounds like a waiting room kind of deal, you die, you wait until you make the decision and then you pass on to whatever you chose - rebirth or long sleep (in which case also the next thing to happen would be Him coming back, as either God changes their mind over eternity or you don't wake up at all).
Virtually every Christian sect has beliefs that aren't explicitely stated in the Bible.
Not everyone, I have no loyalty to any particular church, my loyalty is with God. I'm a seventh day adventist but only because I've had a look around and decided that they're closest to what's in the Bible
Do you know how the Bible was written?
By God through dozens of people over thousands of years
The Bible is a lot of different collections of many different books written, re-written, and orally transmited tales, of which at various points of history different Christian traditions have chosen which ones were canon and which ones were not (and therefore were taken out of the Bible), often with political actors influencing their decisions. If God inspired them all to write the Bible, how does it come that different Christian traditions chose different books? How come that plenty of its meaning got lost across plenty of languages if there was divine help? How come that an English Bible and a Russian Orthodox one may say substantially different things, merely due to translation divergences that piled on during centuries? If you accept all of this, how can all of them be saying the truth, if they dissent from each other? If only one of them says the truth, how do you know which one is it? If only one particular version of the Bible is the correct one, why doesn't God correct the record to make sure the hundreds of millions of Christians through the world who are following wrong ones aren't led astray?
And it started here.
While it's true that some denominations have slightly different canons, they all still have the same set of core books. As for the other books, you need to see if it's consistant with the others. There's some that are fine, there's some (ie the gospel of thomas) that are partly fine but also have some serious crap , and there's some (ie the gospel of judas) that are full of crap.
How come that plenty of its meaning got lost across plenty of languages if there was divine help? How come that an English Bible and a Russian Orthodox one may say substantially different things, merely due to translation divergences that piled on during centuries?
This why new translations should always be translated from the original languages. Yes, sometimes there was no access to the original-language versions, in those cases good on 'em for doing the best they could with what they had.
why doesn't God correct the record to make sure the hundreds of millions of Christians through the world who are following wrong ones aren't led astray?
Not everybody is held to the same standard. If you do something wrong and you don't know any better, it doesn't count as a sin until you know. And being a Christian isn't about what you do, it's about who you know.
While it’s true that some denominations have slightly different canons, they all still have the same set of core books. As for the other books, you need to see if it’s consistant with the others. There’s some that are fine, there’s some (ie the gospel of thomas) that are partly fine but also have some serious crap , and there’s some (ie the gospel of judas) that are full of crap.
Alright, so you have a belief that the "most complete" set of books that most Christian traditions chose (already flimsy ground, but let's carry on), were chosen by divine influence, that whatever potential distortions or misinterpretations of the original texts do not fundamentally skew its original intended meanings, and I'm also going to add to the list that you believe that plenty of its contents must be understood as allegory or excused because they're the result of a very different cultural context, because I don't think you are going to excuse that passages such as this:
https://www.bibleref.com/Exodus/21/Exodus-21-20.html , https://www.bibleref.com/Exodus/21/Exodus-21-21.html
Allowing corporal punishment of slaves as long as they don't drop dead.
There is a severe degree of arbitrariness in deciding that a very specific set of books that were chosen and translated by fallible human beings, under the watchful gaze of rulers that were often arbitrary and politically motivated, were divinely inspired to declare the Universal truth of an All-Powerful god, but you should also pass it all through the prism of your personal interpretation, because that All-Powerful god couldn't be bothered to make the job any easier for you, or even worse,
Not everybody is held to the same standard. If you do something wrong and you don’t know any better, it doesn’t count as a sin until you know. And being a Christian isn’t about what you do, it’s about who you know.
Perhaps that god has decided to personally curse you, because not only weren't you born among the billions of human beings that aren't Christian, but you were raised as a Christian with the capacity and will to get yourself involved in theological discussions, which in your view, brings you ever closer to the knowledge of your god, and therefore increases your responsibility to behave as you think is moral, even if it brings you pain, doubt, heartbreak or confrontation with your neighbours, your community or your congregation. Why should you be loaded with this responsibility, out of the millions of people who have lived more comfortable lives, with more capacity to raise their own status over the abuse and exploitation of others, many of whom didn't even have the responsibility of being Christians, and didn't have to deal with the challenges and difficulties of your own life? It all sounds to me like you're grasping a burning nail for the flimsy chance that an omnipotent being that could and should treat you better does actually really exist.
https://www.bibleref.com/Exodus/21/Exodus-21-20.html , https://www.bibleref.com/Exodus/21/Exodus-21-21.html
Allowing corporal punishment of slaves as long as they don't drop dead.
from here
The Jewish authorities appear to be right in referring this law, like those in Exodus 21:26-27, Exodus 21:32, to foreign slaves (see Leviticus 25:44-46). The protection here afforded to the life of a slave may seem to us but a slight one; but it is the very earliest trace of such protection in legislation, and it stands in strong and favorable contrast with the old laws of Greece, Rome, and other nations. If the slave survived the castigation a day or two, the master did not become amenable to the law, because the loss of the slave was accounted, under the circumstances, as a punishment.
And as for this
Perhaps that god has decided to personally curse you, because not only weren't you born among the billions of human beings that aren't Christian, but you were raised as a Christian with the capacity and will to get yourself involved in theological discussions, which in your view, brings you ever closer to the knowledge of your god, and therefore increases your responsibility to behave as you think is moral, even if it brings you pain, doubt, heartbreak or confrontation with your neighbours, your community or your congregation. Why should you be loaded with this responsibility, out of the millions of people who have lived more comfortable lives, with more capacity to raise their own status over the abuse and exploitation of others, many of whom didn't even have the responsibility of being Christians, and didn't have to deal with the challenges and difficulties of your own life? It all sounds to me like you're grasping a burning nail for the flimsy chance that an omnipotent being that could and should treat you better does actually really exist.
I'm glad I know these things and am able to debate them. Yes, I'll be held to a higher standard, but I know Jesus and I can introduce other people to Him. I live in australia, so it's all legal but even if it weren't, I'd still be with Him. I have missed out on things before (not very often, but mostly due to things being on Sabbath) but I'm prepared to give up more. Jesus never said it'd be easy (He said it'd be hard), but with His help, imma do what He says.
As I predicted earlier, you immediately jumped to justify the passage within its historical context, which isn't a very coherent position for someone who claims that their only faith is in whatever the Bible says. The passage itself may or may not be a good argument to argue about the morality of the Israeli peoples from that time compared to their neighbours (which would be ok if you wanted to claim the moral righteousness of your cultural tradition), but it establishes a terrible precedent in a book you claimed has been inspired by an All-Powerful, omniscient, and benevolent being (which I find far more relevant to this discussion, since we're discussing theology), as that means that this being would not care enough to make sure that the text that would supposedly contain their revelation for the rest of the history of humanity, would make it clear or not whether slavery is right or wrong. I don't believe in superstitions, but if I did, I would hold one that claims to be the ultimate judge of right and wrong to a much higher standard. Which is quite ironic, since you allow this hypothetical being of which you can't even verify its existence to squeeze you dry, but you won't even demand the bare minimum from it.
If you ever decide you've had enough trying to defend the indefensible, please be kinder to yourself. I don't think you deserve this punishment.
"Our planet has been observing your puny species since your planet was created 5,000 years ago by God. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."
thank you for answering questions here, despite all the snark and smartassery in this comment-section.
Are you saying that ALL of the verses about hell being “eternal” or “everlasting” are taken out of context?
Which specific verses are you meaning?
Jude 1:7 Matthew 25:41 And many more
I tried to write something, but I couldn't get my thoughts and beliefs to fit into words properly, so I found something that soneone else wrote that does a good job of saying what I was trying to say
Hell is eternal
This is another belief born from tradition and influenced by Greek culture. It came from a prominent idea among Greek thought-leaders that the human soul is immortal.6
It wasn’t a belief held by the followers of Jesus or the early Christian church.
Let’s follow this idea to its logical end: If all souls are immortal, then there must be an afterlife destination opposite of heaven to house the souls of those who didn’t repent and accept Jesus. And if they rejected the Savior who would give them eternal peace and joy, then wherever they go must be filled with eternal suffering and sadness.
But looking at Scripture, immortality is only attributed to God (1 Timothy 6:15–16), and the only people that inherit eternal life are those who accept Jesus (John 3:16; 17:3; 1 John 5:11, 20).
While the effects of hell’s flames are eternal and cannot be reversed, the lives of those encountering the flames are not eternal. They will experience the “second death.” Their punishment isn’t continual, but it is “everlasting”—because it’s final (Matthew 25:46). They will forever cease to exist.
Also this (from the same webpage)
How long will hell burn?
Since hell is more of an event than an underworld, many people wonder—how long will hell burn? The Bible says that hell will only last as long as it takes to destroy the wicked completely (Malachi 4:1).
Everything must burn completely, because after the earth is destroyed by fire, He will re-create the earth just as it was originally supposed to be (Isaiah 65:17; Revelation 21:1).
Annihilationism—forever gone, not forever burning
The belief in eternal hell typically cites verses about the wicked being eternally destroyed, such as in 2 Thessalonians and Matthew 25.
“They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord’s presence and from His glorious strength” (2 Thessalonians 1:9, CSB). “Then He will also say to those on the left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!’” (Matthew 25:41, CSB).But this is where it’s especially important to use more parts of the Bible to interpret a single passage. Let’s take a look at other verses that mention the word “eternal.”
Several Bible verses explain the destruction of the wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19:24). God sent “punishment of eternal fire” to destroy these cities eternally (Jude 1:7, CSB).
So, if we’re taking “eternal” to mean that they are burning forever, then Sodom and Gomorrah should be continuing to burn today, right?
If you were to look up the present-day locations of these cities on Google maps, you’d see that they’re not.
Rather, these cities were destroyed “eternally” in the sense that they were completely destroyed, never to rise again. The same is true for the destruction of the wicked—they’re not burning forever, but they are forever burnt up.
This explains why Malachi 4:3 mentions that the ashes of the wicked will be on the earth after the lost are destroyed.
In fact, numerous Bible verses describe this destruction as something permanent (Psalm 37:20; 68:2). Even the word “destruction” suggests that at some point the wicked will cease to exist (Psalm 10:25; 12:7).
This concept is often called annihilationism. And while not every Christian faith group subscribes to this belief, it can certainly be backed up with Scripture—and it aligns with God’s character, as described throughout the whole Bible.
The results of hell’s destruction are eternal—not the process of destruction.
It’s not uncommon to find people who have rejected Christianity because they’ve been taught that “bad people” will burn in hell forever. They wonder how a loving God could be so cruel as to make people burn for all eternity for the sins they’ve committed in their brief lifetime.
Some even wonder if God takes pleasure in the suffering of the wicked.
What an awful picture of humanity’s Creator.
But we’re told in Scripture that God finds no joy in the destruction of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:23, 32; Isaiah 28:21).
However, since the possibility is available for people to choose against what God offers us, He had to allow for an alternative fate. And the “second death” of eternal destruction is ultimately the most natural balance between justice and mercy.
All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. - Malachi 4
This is the first verse you cited. It has nothing to do with what you are asserting.
That's the problem with finding sources who interpret the Bible to what they want it to mean. It usually has nothing to do with what is actually written.
Moreover, and I've seen this over and over as soon as a theist tells an atheist to provide passages in the Bible the conversation is pretty much done.
Ahem
Hell is not eternal.
Doom is eternal.
This is the first verse you cited. It has nothing to do with what you are asserting.
That's not the whole verse. Here's the whole thing:
“Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.
It says about how the destruction will be complete-- "not a root or a branch will be left to them"
That's the problem with finding sources who interpret the Bible to what they want it to mean. It usually has nothing to do with what is actually written.
Honestly I completely agree here, there's so many things that are very clearly stated ("remember the Sabbath day and keep it Holy", "it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich person to enter the kingdom of God", there are other examples that's just what I could think of off the top of my head) but people are like "well actually it might mean <something where you're like huh? Where'd that come from?>" or "nah I think imma just not read that bit"
Moreover, and I've seen this over and over as soon as a theist tells an atheist to provide passages in the Bible the conversation is pretty much done.
I've seen this too sometimes, it's kinda sad that people don't know how to argue for their beliefs
Thank you for showing up here and providing us your insight. I really wish folks like you that show up and provide it wouldn't be downvoted because you don't fit their view of a Christian.
What do you mean by this?
When you die you don't immediately go to heaven or hell, you rot and are dead and that's all you'll do until the second coming (like it says in genesis, "from dust you came and to dust you shall return"). The dead know nothing, they feel nothing, they're dead and won't be going anywhere or doing anything unless God makes something else happen.
Heaven isn't just about living forever, it's mostly about being with God forever-- there's really nothing to be afraid of about death, it's just nothing. If you want to be with God forever, why wouldn't you want to be with Him now? That's why God gave us free will, so we can choose what we want to do, even if He wants us to do something else. Hell isn't a place of eternal suffering, it's just one if two choices: to be with God forever and to be apart from God forever.(I really wish there were a word I could use to say hell that isn't hell, it has way too many other connotations about eternal suffering and stuff) (also I'm not meaning "you" as in you specifically, I would say "one" but then it sounds like I'm trying to be posh)
I used to be a Christian so I like to think I know my hermeneutics.
That said, this post just goes to show how wildly a simple book can be interpreted. I wasn't a Seventh Day Adventist. I was a Calvinist.
It shows just how confident you can be in absolutely nothing.
When you really look into scripture, you come to realize it's a book filled with words with no real truth outside of some dudes wrote it.
That said, this post just goes to show how wildly a simple book can be interpreted.
Personally, I think it's pretty clear on most things
(of course there's room for different interpretations, but the main parts are pretty tricky to mistake if you read them openly)When you really look into scripture, you come to realize it's a book filled with words with no real truth outside of some dudes wrote it.
Not really, God told those dudes what to write
When you were a Christian, what did you believe about hell?
God also told me that you're going to hell for being a Seventh Day Adventist. He inspired me to write it down and everything.
So you got that going for you.
(I know you're partly joking, but imma take you seriously for a sec since this is a good point)
Just because someone says that God told them something doesn't mean that God actually told them. These things should always be checked against what we already know He said, we shouldn't just believe them.
Not really, God told those dudes what to write
I see. So you have an explanation of why God changes his mind about the details, why there are so many variants in the texts, and why some random Letters, Epistles, and Gospels are missing? If God choosr to write a book why is he so bad at the task?
the idea of the immortal soul comes from greek philosophy and isn’t biblical at all
Sorta. You have the Nephelium which are strongly hinted at to be the ghosts of great warriors that died. You also have the Witch of Endor who can channel ghosts. Their idea of an immortal soul wasn't consistent and it is reflected in the Hebrew Bible. You are right however the Christian concept of the soul most likely comes from Plato.
I don't know why you say hell isn't a place. The word comes from a physical location that you can even visit if you want in Israel. As for Luke he was clearly just copying what Paul said about "if they knew what they were doing...". Because Paul had to explain the nonsense story related to him.